Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

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Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by panki on Thu 21 Apr - 6:52

I've been reading through old Star Wars EU comics to survive till Dec 2017 since I've read most of the canon material and Rebels is on a break...  study

I came across a few panels that caught my interest.....flaming red lightsaber, killing someone to prove loyalty, death of a father figure, etc.... could this possibly be the inspiration for the Han and Kylo walkway scene? Shocked  
(I am going through a I love you Quinlan Vos phase so you have to forgive the constant references Razz)








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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Sylvia Snow on Thu 21 Apr - 7:10

Han's death could be a way to gain Snoke's trust and allowed Kylo to get close to him. Though I sort of want this to be between Snoke vs Kylo and Rey where Snoke tempting Rey and they will pull this trick on Snoke
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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by panki on Thu 21 Apr - 7:11

That is what I was thinking....this might be a whole game to get Snoke to trust him and he can gain access to Snoke, possibly to kill him.

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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Sylvia Snow on Thu 21 Apr - 7:14

Supreme leader Kylo Ren Evil

I'm looking forward to an epic fight between Kylo Rey and Snoke since I don't think this is something he can do alone
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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Guest on Thu 21 Apr - 8:03

I don´t think Kylo Ren kills his father to gain more power....
I think he does it because he really wants to be free of this pain.....like he says....
Disbalance of light and darkness in him is tearing him apart....
IMO it was bad when he was Ben Solo and wanted to have only light...I bet he was trying real hard to be only good...only light...to suppress his darkness when he was Ben... but to no avail...he was conflicted because then he was feeling the pull to the dark....then something happened...probably many things in the same time (Luke, Snoke, Leia) but something with Han, something he did that triggered Ben´s descend to the darkness....I think Ben willingly decided that the light side didn´t work for him...he felt conflict inside him and pull to the darkness...he answered that pull...decided he will try being dark...maybe that´s his true nature...maybe that´s why he was feeling it calling to him....he was trying....always trying....but that was a wrong choice too....because now...he was feeling the pull to the light....because he was blind to see that he need balance of the Force aspects....not just domination of one aspect...but he is stubborn...beyond measure....to go to extremes to try to gain control over his soul...his feelings...his conflict...You can see his conflict at the bridge....he wants to let go, and don´t at the same time....opposites in one´s character....my Kryptonite...so when the light from a dying star vanishes, he DECIDES for one last desperate act that he believes will push him forever to darkness, beyond any hope of ever returning to the light and thus feeling this conflict tearing his soul apart....I am quite sure that one part of him knows that that is just a myth even in the very moment he thrusts the blade through his father´s heart....all of him realizes that when Han places his last touch to the face of his child that at that moment he loves more than himself, because he forgives him....the act of ultimate evilness...patricide...now Kylo just needs to forgive himself for the pain he caused to himself, to Rey and to Leia.....because other people really don´t matter...Chewie´s pain maybe matters too....

I like the thought that Hans´actions were a thing that drove Ben to darkness, but also his sacrifice will be the instrument of Ren´s return towards the light....to balance...when he triumphs over his failings and forgives himself each day anew thus triggering his redemption and atonement in his eyes and the eyes of those he loves...

“We need not despair even in our worst, for our failures are forgiven. The only fatal thing is to sit down content with anything less than perfection.”

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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Apr - 8:11

panki wrote:That is what I was thinking....this might be a whole game to get Snoke to trust him and he can gain access to Snoke, possibly to kill him.
@panki

I do think it's quite possible that Kylo killed Han because he thought it was the only way to get to Snoke, and thus the only way he could get close enough to kill him to save the galaxy, eliminate the evil, balance the force, etc.  I think Kylo might have also thought that he needed the darkness that would come from killing Han to have the strength to kill Snoke or meet his goal, which I believe is something rooted in a good place, but he gets lost along the way.  I mean maybe the goal of "finish what you started" is to overthrow evil like Vader threw the Emperor down that shaft and Kylo is willing to give his soul and kill his father to do it.  @Reynak and I have talked about this sacrificial element before, on both Kylo's part (his soul for a greater good) and of course, on Han's part.  But I got to think that Han is really dead.  That scene was so powerful.  Also, if Kylo had only fake-killed him, I don't think he would have been that upset afterwards, but he was ... because Leia felt it, and Kylo acted really crazy until the lightsaber catch and the "Marry Me" moment seemed to start calming him down.  But I think the killing the larger evil (the Dathomir mother) parallel could be quite apt.
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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Apr - 8:14

Arcana wrote:I don´t think Kylo Ren kills his father to gain more power....
I think he does it because he really wants to be free of this pain.....like he says....
Disbalance of light and darkness in him is tearing him apart....
IMO it was bad when he was Ben Solo and wanted to have only light...I bet he was trying real hard to be only good...only light...to suppress his darkness when he was Ben... but to no avail...he was conflicted because then he was feeling the pull to the dark....then something happened...probably many things in the same time (Luke, Snoke, Leia) but something with Han, something he did that triggered Ben´s descend to the darkness....I think Ben willingly decided that the light side didn´t work for him...he felt conflict inside him and pull to the darkness...he answered that pull...decided he will try being dark...maybe that´s his true nature...maybe that´s why he was feeling it calling to him....he was trying....always trying....but that was a wrong choice too....because now...he was feeling the pull to the light....because he was blind to see that he need balance of the Force aspects....not just domination of one aspect...but he is stubborn...beyond measure....to go to extremes to try to gain control over his soul...his feelings...his conflict...You can see his conflict at the bridge....he wants to let go, and don´t at the same time....opposites in one´s character....my Kryptonite...so when the light from a dying star vanishes, he DECIDES for one last desperate act that he believes will push him forever to darkness, beyond any hope of ever returning to the light and thus feeling this conflict tearing his soul apart....I am quite sure that one part of him knows that that is just a myth even in the very moment he thrusts the blade through his father´s heart....all of him realizes that when Han places his last touch to the face of his child that at that moment he loves more than himself, because he forgives him....the act of ultimate evilness...patricide...now Kylo just needs to forgive himself for the pain he caused to himself, to Rey and to Leia.....because other people really don´t matter...Chewie´s pain maybe matters too....

I like the thought that Hans´actions were a thing that drove Ben to darkness, but also his sacrifice will be the instrument of Ren´s return towards the light....to balance...when he triumphs over his failings and forgives himself each day anew thus triggering his redemption and atonement in his eyes and the eyes of those he loves...

“We need not despair even in our worst, for our failures are forgiven. The only fatal thing is to sit down content with anything less than perfection.”
@Arcana

Well said @Arcana! Also, where is that last quote from? Smile
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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Guest on Thu 21 Apr - 8:18

C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

Didn´t know this exact one...but played with a similar thought in my head...googled what I was thinking and found this that fits my mood perfectly...I don´t think I ever read this book....but I have a lot of random thoughts that apparently are not very original...lol...followed by a soft chuckle Very Happy

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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by panki on Thu 21 Apr - 9:00

SoloSideCousin wrote:
panki wrote:That is what I was thinking....this might be a whole game to get Snoke to trust him and he can gain access to Snoke, possibly to kill him.
@panki

I do think it's quite possible that Kylo killed Han because he thought it was the only way to get to Snoke, and thus the only way he could get close enough to kill him to save the galaxy, eliminate the evil, balance the force, etc.  I think Kylo might have also thought that he needed the darkness that would come from killing Han to have the strength to kill Snoke or meet his goal, which I believe is something rooted in a good place, but he gets lost along the way.  I mean maybe the goal of "finish what you started" is to overthrow evil like Vader threw the Emperor down that shaft and Kylo is willing to give his soul and kill his father to do it.  @Reynak and I have talked about this sacrificial element before, on both Kylo's part (his soul for a greater good) and of course, on Han's part.  But I got to think that Han is really dead.  That scene was so powerful.  Also, if Kylo had only fake-killed him, I don't think he would have been that upset afterwards, but he was ... because Leia felt it, and Kylo acted really crazy until the lightsaber catch and the "Marry Me" moment seemed to start calming him down.  But I think the killing the larger evil (the Dathomir mother) parallel could be quite apt.
@SoloSideCousin

I also don't think the killing itself was fake...but Kylo definitely has some major plan....maybe he thinks he has to make sacrifices for the greater good of the galaxy and is therefore steeping himself in darkness....I also found it interesting that Snoke's character was originally supposed to be female and they changed it at a later stage....

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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Force Ghost on Thu 21 Apr - 10:15

Arcana wrote:I don´t think Kylo Ren kills his father to gain more power....
I think he does it because he really wants to be free of this pain.....like he says....
Disbalance of light and darkness in him is tearing him apart....
IMO it was bad when he was Ben Solo and wanted to have only light...I bet he was trying real hard to be only good...only light...to suppress his darkness when he was Ben... but to no avail...he was conflicted because then he was feeling the pull to the dark....then something happened...probably many things in the same time (Luke, Snoke, Leia) but something with Han, something he did that triggered Ben´s descend to the darkness....I think Ben willingly decided that the light side didn´t work for him...he felt conflict inside him and pull to the darkness...he answered that pull...decided he will try being dark...maybe that´s his true nature...maybe that´s why he was feeling it calling to him....he was trying....always trying....but that was a wrong choice too....because now...he was feeling the pull to the light....because he was blind to see that he need balance of the Force aspects....not just domination of one aspect...but he is stubborn...beyond measure....to go to extremes to try to gain control over his soul...his feelings...his conflict...You can see his conflict at the bridge....he wants to let go, and don´t at the same time....opposites in one´s character....my Kryptonite...so when the light from a dying star vanishes, he DECIDES for one last desperate act that he believes will push him forever to darkness, beyond any hope of ever returning to the light and thus feeling this conflict tearing his soul apart....I am quite sure that one part of him knows that that is just a myth even in the very moment he thrusts the blade through his father´s heart....all of him realizes that when Han places his last touch to the face of his child that at that moment he loves more than himself, because he forgives him....the act of ultimate evilness...patricide...now Kylo just needs to forgive himself for the pain he caused to himself, to Rey and to Leia.....because other people really don´t matter...Chewie´s pain maybe matters too....

I like the thought that Hans´actions were a thing that drove Ben to darkness, but also his sacrifice will be the instrument of Ren´s return towards the light....to balance...when he triumphs over his failings and forgives himself each day anew thus triggering his redemption and atonement in his eyes and the eyes of those he loves...

“We need not despair even in our worst, for our failures are forgiven. The only fatal thing is to sit down content with anything less than perfection.”
@Arcana
I agree with everything! I like the way you think Wink
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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Guest on Thu 21 Apr - 10:53

bela.mesecina wrote:
Arcana wrote:I don´t think Kylo Ren kills his father to gain more power....
I think he does it because he really wants to be free of this pain.....like he says....
Disbalance of light and darkness in him is tearing him apart....
IMO it was bad when he was Ben Solo and wanted to have only light...I bet he was trying real hard to be only good...only light...to suppress his darkness when he was Ben... but to no avail...he was conflicted because then he was feeling the pull to the dark....then something happened...probably many things in the same time (Luke, Snoke, Leia) but something with Han, something he did that triggered Ben´s descend to the darkness....I think Ben willingly decided that the light side didn´t work for him...he felt conflict inside him and pull to the darkness...he answered that pull...decided he will try being dark...maybe that´s his true nature...maybe that´s why he was feeling it calling to him....he was trying....always trying....but that was a wrong choice too....because now...he was feeling the pull to the light....because he was blind to see that he need balance of the Force aspects....not just domination of one aspect...but he is stubborn...beyond measure....to go to extremes to try to gain control over his soul...his feelings...his conflict...You can see his conflict at the bridge....he wants to let go, and don´t at the same time....opposites in one´s character....my Kryptonite...so when the light from a dying star vanishes, he DECIDES for one last desperate act that he believes will push him forever to darkness, beyond any hope of ever returning to the light and thus feeling this conflict tearing his soul apart....I am quite sure that one part of him knows that that is just a myth even in the very moment he thrusts the blade through his father´s heart....all of him realizes that when Han places his last touch to the face of his child that at that moment he loves more than himself, because he forgives him....the act of ultimate evilness...patricide...now Kylo just needs to forgive himself for the pain he caused to himself, to Rey and to Leia.....because other people really don´t matter...Chewie´s pain maybe matters too....

I like the thought that Hans´actions were a thing that drove Ben to darkness, but also his sacrifice will be the instrument of Ren´s return towards the light....to balance...when he triumphs over his failings and forgives himself each day anew thus triggering his redemption and atonement in his eyes and the eyes of those he loves...

“We need not despair even in our worst, for our failures are forgiven. The only fatal thing is to sit down content with anything less than perfection.”
@Arcana
I agree with everything! I like the way you think Wink
@bela.mesecina

Thank you...Kylo Ren is very personal to me Very Happy

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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Airemyn on Thu 21 Apr - 11:24

panki wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
panki wrote:That is what I was thinking....this might be a whole game to get Snoke to trust him and he can gain access to Snoke, possibly to kill him.
@panki

I do think it's quite possible that Kylo killed Han because he thought it was the only way to get to Snoke, and thus the only way he could get close enough to kill him to save the galaxy, eliminate the evil, balance the force, etc.  I think Kylo might have also thought that he needed the darkness that would come from killing Han to have the strength to kill Snoke or meet his goal, which I believe is something rooted in a good place, but he gets lost along the way.  I mean maybe the goal of "finish what you started" is to overthrow evil like Vader threw the Emperor down that shaft and Kylo is willing to give his soul and kill his father to do it.  @Reynak and I have talked about this sacrificial element before, on both Kylo's part (his soul for a greater good) and of course, on Han's part.  But I got to think that Han is really dead.  That scene was so powerful.  Also, if Kylo had only fake-killed him, I don't think he would have been that upset afterwards, but he was ... because Leia felt it, and Kylo acted really crazy until the lightsaber catch and the "Marry Me" moment seemed to start calming him down.  But I think the killing the larger evil (the Dathomir mother) parallel could be quite apt.
@SoloSideCousin

I also don't think the killing itself was fake...but Kylo definitely has some major plan....maybe he thinks he has to make sacrifices for the greater good of the galaxy and is therefore steeping himself in darkness....I also found it interesting that Snoke's character was originally supposed to be female and they changed it at a later stage....

@panki

This is awesome - you really know your EU! Smile

I'm not sure where I read it but there was a comment by Harrison Ford or JJ I believe, where he mentioned that Han's death may have been for the greater good. I too believe that there was a bigger reason behind Han's death and Kylo knows something more than the rest of us. Maybe he had visions when he was younger and learnt what he needed to do, or perhaps Luke advised him?
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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by panki on Thu 21 Apr - 11:42

Airemyn wrote:
panki wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
panki wrote:That is what I was thinking....this might be a whole game to get Snoke to trust him and he can gain access to Snoke, possibly to kill him.
@panki

I do think it's quite possible that Kylo killed Han because he thought it was the only way to get to Snoke, and thus the only way he could get close enough to kill him to save the galaxy, eliminate the evil, balance the force, etc.  I think Kylo might have also thought that he needed the darkness that would come from killing Han to have the strength to kill Snoke or meet his goal, which I believe is something rooted in a good place, but he gets lost along the way.  I mean maybe the goal of "finish what you started" is to overthrow evil like Vader threw the Emperor down that shaft and Kylo is willing to give his soul and kill his father to do it.  @Reynak and I have talked about this sacrificial element before, on both Kylo's part (his soul for a greater good) and of course, on Han's part.  But I got to think that Han is really dead.  That scene was so powerful.  Also, if Kylo had only fake-killed him, I don't think he would have been that upset afterwards, but he was ... because Leia felt it, and Kylo acted really crazy until the lightsaber catch and the "Marry Me" moment seemed to start calming him down.  But I think the killing the larger evil (the Dathomir mother) parallel could be quite apt.
@SoloSideCousin

I also don't think the killing itself was fake...but Kylo definitely has some major plan....maybe he thinks he has to make sacrifices for the greater good of the galaxy and is therefore steeping himself in darkness....I also found it interesting that Snoke's character was originally supposed to be female and they changed it at a later stage....

@panki

This is awesome - you really know your EU! Smile

I'm not sure where I read it but there was a comment by Harrison Ford or JJ I believe, where he mentioned that Han's death may have been for the greater good. I too believe that there was a bigger reason behind Han's death and Kylo knows something more than the rest of us. Maybe he had visions when he was younger and learnt what he needed to do, or perhaps Luke advised him?
@Airemyn

Thanks Smile
Maybe Kylo did get visions of what he had to do for the greater good as a child and he must have acted out because of it.....it would also explain the "too much Vader" remark in TFA.

This particular comic book is so similar to TFA it is uncanny....there is a starship that resembles Rey's scavenger vehicle, an attack from rathar-like beings, a Hamet like scene between the girl with the sword (in the above panel) and her dead father, an interrogation scene with Quinlan strapped down just like Rey was etc.......the only difference is that instead of the FO, it is Dathomiri witches enslaving people to build an Empire on their planet.

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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Apr - 15:08

Airemyn wrote:
panki wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
panki wrote:That is what I was thinking....this might be a whole game to get Snoke to trust him and he can gain access to Snoke, possibly to kill him.
@panki

I do think it's quite possible that Kylo killed Han because he thought it was the only way to get to Snoke, and thus the only way he could get close enough to kill him to save the galaxy, eliminate the evil, balance the force, etc.  I think Kylo might have also thought that he needed the darkness that would come from killing Han to have the strength to kill Snoke or meet his goal, which I believe is something rooted in a good place, but he gets lost along the way.  I mean maybe the goal of "finish what you started" is to overthrow evil like Vader threw the Emperor down that shaft and Kylo is willing to give his soul and kill his father to do it.  @Reynak and I have talked about this sacrificial element before, on both Kylo's part (his soul for a greater good) and of course, on Han's part.  But I got to think that Han is really dead.  That scene was so powerful.  Also, if Kylo had only fake-killed him, I don't think he would have been that upset afterwards, but he was ... because Leia felt it, and Kylo acted really crazy until the lightsaber catch and the "Marry Me" moment seemed to start calming him down.  But I think the killing the larger evil (the Dathomir mother) parallel could be quite apt.
@SoloSideCousin

I also don't think the killing itself was fake...but Kylo definitely has some major plan....maybe he thinks he has to make sacrifices for the greater good of the galaxy and is therefore steeping himself in darkness....I also found it interesting that Snoke's character was originally supposed to be female and they changed it at a later stage....

@panki

This is awesome - you really know your EU!  Smile

I'm not sure where I read it but there was a comment by Harrison Ford or JJ I believe, where he mentioned that Han's death may have been for the greater good. I too believe that there was a bigger reason behind Han's death and Kylo knows something more than the rest of us. Maybe he had visions when he was younger and learnt what he needed to do, or perhaps Luke advised him?

@Airemyn


I remember reading an old spoiler somewhere that came out before TFA.  I don't know the source.  I'd have to sort through a million bookmarks, but it mentioned something about Kylo Ren doing something that looked really dark in TFA, but the act was actually done in furtherance of the Light.

Regarding the bolded, I agree completely.  He's had some kind of vision.  He is working off of something with that "finish what you started".  Also in that same scene with Vader's helmet, he's actually "reassurance seeking".  He says he feels the "call of the light", and then he's practically begging Vader to show him a reason to continue.  "Show me! Show me the power of the darkness and I will finish what you started."

I know the standard thought is that that's Snoke talking to him through that helmet, and maybe it is ... because maybe by manipulating visions of Vader was the only way Snoke could get Ben to turn and stay turned in the end.

But I am not ruling out the shifting Vader/Anakin force ghost notion yet.  They did have that concept art.

I'm not ruling out Luke having a bad moment either.  He looked pretty messed up in that Episode VIII clip.
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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Apr - 15:15

panki wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
panki wrote:That is what I was thinking....this might be a whole game to get Snoke to trust him and he can gain access to Snoke, possibly to kill him.
@panki

I do think it's quite possible that Kylo killed Han because he thought it was the only way to get to Snoke, and thus the only way he could get close enough to kill him to save the galaxy, eliminate the evil, balance the force, etc.  I think Kylo might have also thought that he needed the darkness that would come from killing Han to have the strength to kill Snoke or meet his goal, which I believe is something rooted in a good place, but he gets lost along the way.  I mean maybe the goal of "finish what you started" is to overthrow evil like Vader threw the Emperor down that shaft and Kylo is willing to give his soul and kill his father to do it.  @Reynak and I have talked about this sacrificial element before, on both Kylo's part (his soul for a greater good) and of course, on Han's part.  But I got to think that Han is really dead.  That scene was so powerful.  Also, if Kylo had only fake-killed him, I don't think he would have been that upset afterwards, but he was ... because Leia felt it, and Kylo acted really crazy until the lightsaber catch and the "Marry Me" moment seemed to start calming him down.  But I think the killing the larger evil (the Dathomir mother) parallel could be quite apt.
@SoloSideCousin

I also don't think the killing itself was fake...but Kylo definitely has some major plan....maybe he thinks he has to make sacrifices for the greater good of the galaxy and is therefore steeping himself in darkness....I also found it interesting that Snoke's character was originally supposed to be female and they changed it at a later stage....
@panki

A Dathomiri-like Snoke would be an interesting concept. I always envisioned a more coolly evil Basic Instinct Sharon Stone type ... which in light of Reylo, it was definitely a good move for them to move on from that, because there would be all kinds of implications with a relationship like that and beautiful woman Snoke.

I think Snoke was fairly last minute. I wonder if they opted for a male arch-villain because they thought some of the male demographic would prefer it ... or on a sadder note, could only take so many powerful female characters?

That's the awesome thing about Kylo. He may have problems, but he seems to have no problem with strong women. Rey, Phasma, his mother. Very Happy I suppose Leia set the tone on that one. Also, if he really thought Han was foolish and weak, and since he seems to not respect Hux a bit, he might look at his mother as the stronger model for a war leader or just a leader in general.
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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by panki on Thu 21 Apr - 21:50

SoloSideCousin wrote:
panki wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
panki wrote:That is what I was thinking....this might be a whole game to get Snoke to trust him and he can gain access to Snoke, possibly to kill him.
@panki

I do think it's quite possible that Kylo killed Han because he thought it was the only way to get to Snoke, and thus the only way he could get close enough to kill him to save the galaxy, eliminate the evil, balance the force, etc.  I think Kylo might have also thought that he needed the darkness that would come from killing Han to have the strength to kill Snoke or meet his goal, which I believe is something rooted in a good place, but he gets lost along the way.  I mean maybe the goal of "finish what you started" is to overthrow evil like Vader threw the Emperor down that shaft and Kylo is willing to give his soul and kill his father to do it.  @Reynak and I have talked about this sacrificial element before, on both Kylo's part (his soul for a greater good) and of course, on Han's part.  But I got to think that Han is really dead.  That scene was so powerful.  Also, if Kylo had only fake-killed him, I don't think he would have been that upset afterwards, but he was ... because Leia felt it, and Kylo acted really crazy until the lightsaber catch and the "Marry Me" moment seemed to start calming him down.  But I think the killing the larger evil (the Dathomir mother) parallel could be quite apt.
@SoloSideCousin

I also don't think the killing itself was fake...but Kylo definitely has some major plan....maybe he thinks he has to make sacrifices for the greater good of the galaxy and is therefore steeping himself in darkness....I also found it interesting that Snoke's character was originally supposed to be female and they changed it at a later stage....
@panki

A Dathomiri-like Snoke would be an interesting concept.  I always envisioned a more coolly evil Basic Instinct Sharon Stone type ... which in light of Reylo, it was definitely a good move for them to move on from that, because there would be all kinds of implications with a relationship like that and beautiful woman Snoke.

I think Snoke was fairly last minute.  I wonder if they opted for a male arch-villain because they thought some of the male demographic would prefer it ... or on a sadder note, could only take so many powerful female characters?

That's the awesome thing about Kylo.  He may have problems, but he seems to have no problem with strong women. Rey, Phasma, his mother. Very Happy I suppose Leia set the tone on that one.  Also, if he really thought Han was foolish and weak, and since he seems to not respect Hux a bit, he might look at his mother as the stronger model for a war leader or just a leader in general.
@SoloSideCousin

I think you are right about their possible reason for changing Snoke to a male character.....it would have had implications about the nature of the relationship Ben and the female villain, particularly if she were attractive....then it would be an exact replica of the relationship between Sariss and Yun....where Sariss seduces Yun, turns him to the dark side, and makes him kill his family (and countless others).....but he is inherently good and honourable so he dies saving Kyle Katarn and returns to the light side... Sad

They have already brought a version of the Revan-Bastila story into canon (in the novel Dark Disciple)....so I think that leaves the Jarael-Zayne Garrick story (which has the most optimistic ending of the three EU stories).... *fingers crossed*

I got the impression Kylo doesn't respect Hux because he sees war from an armchair perspective and never gets his hands dirty.....and I think he doesn't really distinguish between genders.....I feel Rey was an exception because he was drawn to her FS abilities...he liked the person inside (the pretty face is a bonus) Razz

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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Darth Rowan on Thu 21 Apr - 22:06

SoloSideCousin wrote:
That's the awesome thing about Kylo.  He may have problems, but he seems to have no problem with strong women. Rey, Phasma, his mother. Very Happy I suppose Leia set the tone on that one.  Also, if he really thought Han was foolish and weak, and since he seems to not respect Hux a bit, he might look at his mother as the stronger model for a war leader or just a leader in general.
@SoloSideCousin

Yes, this! I absolutely LOVE this about Kylo Ren. In fact, I think it's one of the things that most endeared him to me, aside from his unexpected vulnerability. Not only is he cool with girl power, he obviously admires it. That look he gave Rey when she pulled the saber...a little more and it would have been a live action enactment of the syncopal heart eyes emoji, lol:



I completely agree with you that Leia seems to have had a hand in that; she obviously did a good job in that sense, probably by not making him feel resentful of her power (i.e., not giving him cause to feel belittled or emasculated), and maybe even encouraging his sense own sense of industry. I really am looking forward to seeing their mother-son dynamic explored in the novels and hopefully even in the upcoming films.

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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Reynak on Thu 21 Apr - 22:40

@SoloSideCousin, @panki

I really don't know what rules kylo's mind, but based on how Adam played him, I can't see him as someone evil per se, he seems heroic rather than villanous. I know this may not make sense for some,but in spite of his horrible actions,the vibe he exudes is not that of a villain. He only seems a villain when he looks up at Finn and Rey from the catwalk while they are on a higher level. He is looking at them from Hell, that's what he looks like and his face looks really evil then, as if tainted by what he has just done. But apart from this scene, he never seems to have the voice inflections, the body language or facial expression of someone evil. This is what I found baffling.

Also, when he talks to Vader's mask he is so much like the man on a mission that will cost him his soul but has already made up his mind to lay his life and his soul for some cause he sees as just, and it must be for something grand, like the greater good.

What doesn't make sense is for him to joing the DS to be free from his inner pain and the constant tension between dark and light inside him. This can't be true because he is so miserabe, so sad in the DS that it makes no sense whatsoever for him to be there to belong and find his place in the world. He feels horribly distressed, on the brink of tears so often that it is clear he is making a terrible effort to remain in the DS. He even needs Vader's help to stay there. Then why? He hates it, every minute of it. It is eating at him from the inside out, so the question is what for? Why is he doing something that is so clearly a sacrifice for him?

And killing Han is another sacrifice, the ultimate sacrifice to gain Snoke's trust, because before he killed his father, Snoke didn't finish his training,which means he didn't trust him. That mission of his is taking his life, because he is in constant emotional pain and also denies himself to the point of rejecting family, friendship (he is completely isolated and friedless in the DS)and probably all the pleasure life can offer. He is space Knight Templar, and those renounced everything in life including possessions, family, marriage and love for absolute commitmet to a cause. They were crusaders, warriors, killers, but they did everything for God and for their order. Well, according to how they saw life, of course, because the Crusades were a horrible stain in the history of Christendom.

So Kylo  has no respite and no solace, only his grandfather's helmet for support. Someone like him, who gains nothing from being in the DS, must have a powerful reason to lose so much for no apparent personal gain. To make matters worse, he is tempted when he's intent on his goal, he meets Rey and everything he's renounced calls to him full force. On that catwalk I think I saw a double sacrifice, a beautiful selfless one from Han but also a mysterious hearbreaking one on Kylo/Ben's part. I still don't know why but I trust what I felt, and watching them I felt as sorry for Han as for his son,which means the sacrifice was dual in that scene. If Kylo had done if for selfish reasons, like being free from his struggle between opposing sides of the Force, that "feeling torn apart", I don't think he'd look so much like a man making a sacrifice that's killing him, even befor he does it.

What I find difficult to believe is that Han is alive because his son felt so miserable and shocked after killing him that seems impossible. For the sake of his mission, Ben Solo sacrificed his soul and there's no way back, he did the unforgivable to gain a prominet place in the DS which will give him the key to his goal. Killing Snoke? It would make sense, this could be a powerful reason if is Snoke is a formidable threat for the whole galaxy like he seems.
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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Jozie on Fri 22 Apr - 2:14

Reynak wrote:What doesn't make sense is for him to joing the DS to be free from his inner pain and the constant tension between dark and light inside him. This can't be true because he is so miserabe, so sad in the DS that it makes no sense whatsoever for him to be there to belong and find his place in the world. He feels horribly distressed, on the brink of tears so often that it is clear he is making a terrible effort to remain in the DS. He even needs Vader's help to stay there. Then why? He hates it, every minute of it. It is eating at him from the inside out, so the question is what for? Why is he doing something that is so clearly a sacrifice for him?
@Reynak
I think that from Kylo's point of view the Light Side has rejected him. First he felt abandoned by his parents, then didn't feel that he belongs to the Jedi cause of his dark side/Snoke manipulations. And it makes sense to me that after knowing the Light Side he "gives a shot" to the DS, hoping that the pain (that he probably also felt on the LS) will go away.

And overall I strongly agree with you. I also think that he has a powerful reason  (planted by Snoke, of course) to become the space Knight Templar. He must believe that what he does is "good". So I think Snoke got to him with some fascist solutions on how to fix things in the Galaxy. It's often hinted that the Republic is corrupted and the life in it might not be so groovy for normal people (there are scavengers, slaves, gangs next to aristocracy etc) so maybe Kylo honestly believes FO will make the things right, even if he has to kill lots of people first. Let's hope Rey will explain to him why fascism is wrong and he'll change his political views Smile

Reynak wrote:What I find difficult to believe is that Han is alive because his son felt so miserable and shocked after killing him that seems impossible. For the sake of his mission, Ben Solo sacrificed his soul and there's no way back, he did the unforgivable to gain a prominet place in the DS which will give him the key to his goal. Killing Snoke? It would make sense, this could be a powerful reason if is Snoke is a formidable threat for the whole galaxy like he seems.
Here I don't get the first part... Han is alive? What did you mean? And I don't think his goal is to kill Snoke. He genuinly hoped to break with the Light Side after killing his father and to become a "normal" DS user.
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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Reynak on Fri 22 Apr - 6:37

HJozie wrote:
Reynak wrote:What doesn't make sense is for him to joing the DS to be free from his inner pain and the constant tension between dark and light inside him. This can't be true because he is so miserabe, so sad in the DS that it makes no sense whatsoever for him to be there to belong and find his place in the world. He feels horribly distressed, on the brink of tears so often that it is clear he is making a terrible effort to remain in the DS. He even needs Vader's help to stay there. Then why? He hates it, every minute of it. It is eating at him from the inside out, so the question is what for? Why is he doing something that is so clearly a sacrifice for him?
@Reynak
I think that from Kylo's point of view the Light Side has rejected him. First he felt abandoned by his parents, then didn't feel that he belongs to the Jedi cause of his dark side/Snoke manipulations. And it makes sense to me that after knowing the Light Side he "gives a shot" to the DS, hoping that the pain (that he probably also felt on the LS) will go away.

And overall I strongly agree with you. I also think that he has a powerful reason  (planted by Snoke, of course) to become the space Knight Templar. He must believe that what he does is "good". So I think Snoke got to him with some fascist solutions on how to fix things in the Galaxy. It's often hinted that the Republic is corrupted and the life in it might not be so groovy for normal people (there are scavengers, slaves, gangs next to aristocracy etc) so maybe Kylo honestly believes FO will make the things right, even if he has to kill lots of people first. Let's hope Rey will explain to him why fascism is wrong and he'll change his political views Smile

Reynak wrote:What I find difficult to believe is that Han is alive because his son felt so miserable and shocked after killing him that seems impossible. For the sake of his mission, Ben Solo sacrificed his soul and there's no way back, he did the unforgivable to gain a prominet place in the DS which will give him the key to his goal. Killing Snoke? It would make sense, this could be a powerful reason if is Snoke is a formidable threat for the whole galaxy like he seems.
Here I don't get the first part... Han is alive? What did you mean? And I don't think his goal is to kill Snoke. He genuinly hoped to break with the Light Side after killing his father and to become a "normal" DS user.
@Jozie

We were comparing Kylo and Han with a an EU story where a character seems to have killed her father but her aim was to kill a powerful patental figure like Snoke. She does that and his father is not dead, his death was fake. Have a look several messages back and you will see what I mean. I haven't read the story myself but anpther poster brought it up.

As for going to the DS because your people don't accept you that's something I can't buy because I don't think he can be more miserable anywhere. The amount of misery he shows in TFA would be unbearable for anyone for a long period of time and anyone would have left after a while, so his reasons to stay must be powerful and still unknown to us. It would be quite boring if we already knew everything about Ben Solo when there are still two movies. Your parents loving you but having no time for you can't be the only reason to not only join but stay   to an organization id this makes so ostensibly unhappy you have to cover your face and distort your voice or everyone would know.

There must be more, for instance the impossibility of coming back after what happened to the padawans. I also think he didn't kill tbose padawans.Either someone else did it and he was framed for that giving us the reason for him to join the DS (if everyone believes he is a monster perhaps he thinks his place is with the monsters) or perhaps they are not dead but they turned just like he did and under his influence becoming the mysterious knights of Ren. After all Kylo says to Han he killed Ben Solo because he was weak and foolish and that was a figurative death,not a real one. Han does not say in the movile that the padawans were killed, only that an apprentice destruoyed everything, which is extremely ambiguous. I think that is very important and still unclear. It is key to understand Ben Solo.

As for him believing fascism may be a political solution for the galaxy is possible but difficult to believe for me because he is no part of the FO and 
Hux suggests personal reasons on Kylo's part different from Snoke's intentions. kylo has his own agenda and his own reasons still unknown to us.
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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by panki on Fri 22 Apr - 7:27

Reynak wrote:
HJozie wrote:
Reynak wrote:What doesn't make sense is for him to joing the DS to be free from his inner pain and the constant tension between dark and light inside him. This can't be true because he is so miserabe, so sad in the DS that it makes no sense whatsoever for him to be there to belong and find his place in the world. He feels horribly distressed, on the brink of tears so often that it is clear he is making a terrible effort to remain in the DS. He even needs Vader's help to stay there. Then why? He hates it, every minute of it. It is eating at him from the inside out, so the question is what for? Why is he doing something that is so clearly a sacrifice for him?
@Reynak
I think that from Kylo's point of view the Light Side has rejected him. First he felt abandoned by his parents, then didn't feel that he belongs to the Jedi cause of his dark side/Snoke manipulations. And it makes sense to me that after knowing the Light Side he "gives a shot" to the DS, hoping that the pain (that he probably also felt on the LS) will go away.

And overall I strongly agree with you. I also think that he has a powerful reason  (planted by Snoke, of course) to become the space Knight Templar. He must believe that what he does is "good". So I think Snoke got to him with some fascist solutions on how to fix things in the Galaxy. It's often hinted that the Republic is corrupted and the life in it might not be so groovy for normal people (there are scavengers, slaves, gangs next to aristocracy etc) so maybe Kylo honestly believes FO will make the things right, even if he has to kill lots of people first. Let's hope Rey will explain to him why fascism is wrong and he'll change his political views Smile

Reynak wrote:What I find difficult to believe is that Han is alive because his son felt so miserable and shocked after killing him that seems impossible. For the sake of his mission, Ben Solo sacrificed his soul and there's no way back, he did the unforgivable to gain a prominet place in the DS which will give him the key to his goal. Killing Snoke? It would make sense, this could be a powerful reason if is Snoke is a formidable threat for the whole galaxy like he seems.
Here I don't get the first part... Han is alive? What did you mean? And I don't think his goal is to kill Snoke. He genuinly hoped to break with the Light Side after killing his father and to become a "normal" DS user.
@Jozie

We were comparing Kylo and Han with a an EU story where a character seems to have killed her father but her aim was to kill a powerful patental figure like Snoke. She does that and his father is not dead, his death was fake. Have a look several messages back and you will see what I mean. I haven't read the story myself but anpther poster brought it up.

As for going to the DS because your people don't accept you that's something I can't buy because I don't think he can be more miserable anywhere. The amount of misery he shows in TFA would be unbearable for anyone for a long period of time and anyone would have left after a while, so his reasons to stay must be powerful and still unknown to us. It would be quite boring if we already knew everything about Ben Solo when there are still two movies. Your parents loving you but having no time for you can't be the only reason to not only join but stay   to an organization id this makes so ostensibly unhappy you have to cover your face and distort your voice or everyone would know.

There must be more, for instance the impossibility of coming back after what happened to the padawans. I also think he didn't kill tbose padawans.Either someone else did it and he was framed for that giving us the reason for him to join the DS (if everyone believes he is a monster perhaps he thinks his place is with the monsters) or perhaps they are not dead but they turned just like he did and under his influence becoming the mysterious knights of Ren. After all Kylo says to Han he killed Ben Solo because he was weak and foolish and that was a figurative death,not a real one. Han does not say in the movile that the padawans were killed, only that an apprentice destruoyed everything, which is extremely ambiguous. I think that is very important and still unclear. It is key to understand Ben Solo.

As for him believing fascism may be a political solution for the galaxy is possible but difficult to believe for me because he is no part of the FO and 
Hux suggests personal reasons on Kylo's part different from Snoke's intentions. kylo has his own agenda and his own reasons still unknown to us.
@Reynak

I made a typo in had typed posting the first post....the guy she stabs isn't her father....her father was already killed and appears as a ghost a few panels before to warn her that she will be used if she reveals her true nature....she stabs the jedi who is there to help her and some other people being kept prisoner and mistreated.

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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Reynak on Fri 22 Apr - 13:37

Ü
panki wrote:
Reynak wrote:
HJozie wrote:
Reynak wrote:What doesn't make sense is for him to joing the DS to be free from his inner pain and the constant tension between dark and light inside him. This can't be true because he is so miserabe, so sad in the DS that it makes no sense whatsoever for him to be there to belong and find his place in the world. He feels horribly distressed, on the brink of tears so often that it is clear he is making a terrible effort to remain in the DS. He even needs Vader's help to stay there. Then why? He hates it, every minute of it. It is eating at him from the inside out, so the question is what for? Why is he doing something that is so clearly a sacrifice for him?
@Reynak
I think that from Kylo's point of view the Light Side has rejected him. First he felt abandoned by his parents, then didn't feel that he belongs to the Jedi cause of his dark side/Snoke manipulations. And it makes sense to me that after knowing the Light Side he "gives a shot" to the DS, hoping that the pain (that he probably also felt on the LS) will go away.

And overall I strongly agree with you. I also think that he has a powerful reason  (planted by Snoke, of course) to become the space Knight Templar. He must believe that what he does is "good". So I think Snoke got to him with some fascist solutions on how to fix things in the Galaxy. It's often hinted that the Republic is corrupted and the life in it might not be so groovy for normal people (there are scavengers, slaves, gangs next to aristocracy etc) so maybe Kylo honestly believes FO will make the things right, even if he has to kill lots of people first. Let's hope Rey will explain to him why fascism is wrong and he'll change his political views Smile

Reynak wrote:What I find difficult to believe is that Han is alive because his son felt so miserable and shocked after killing him that seems impossible. For the sake of his mission, Ben Solo sacrificed his soul and there's no way back, he did the unforgivable to gain a prominet place in the DS which will give him the key to his goal. Killing Snoke? It would make sense, this could be a powerful reason if is Snoke is a formidable threat for the whole galaxy like he seems.
Here I don't get the first part... Han is alive? What did you mean? And I don't think his goal is to kill Snoke. He genuinly hoped to break with the Light Side after killing his father and to become a "normal" DS user.
@Jozie

We were comparing Kylo and Han with a an EU story where a character seems to have killed her father but her aim was to kill a powerful patental figure like Snoke. She does that and his father is not dead, his death was fake. Have a look several messages back and you will see what I mean. I haven't read the story myself but anpther poster brought it up.

As for going to the DS because your people don't accept you that's something I can't buy because I don't think he can be more miserable anywhere. The amount of misery he shows in TFA would be unbearable for anyone for a long period of time and anyone would have left after a while, so his reasons to stay must be powerful and still unknown to us. It would be quite boring if we already knew everything about Ben Solo when there are still two movies. Your parents loving you but having no time for you can't be the only reason to not only join but stay   to an organization id this makes so ostensibly unhappy you have to cover your face and distort your voice or everyone would know.

There must be more, for instance the impossibility of coming back after what happened to the padawans. I also think he didn't kill tbose padawans.Either someone else did it and he was framed for that giving us the reason for him to join the DS (if everyone believes he is a monster perhaps he thinks his place is with the monsters) or perhaps they are not dead but they turned just like he did and under his influence becoming the mysterious knights of Ren. After all Kylo says to Han he killed Ben Solo because he was weak and foolish and that was a figurative death,not a real one. Han does not say in the movile that the padawans were killed, only that an apprentice destruoyed everything, which is extremely ambiguous. I think that is very important and still unclear. It is key to understand Ben Solo.

As for him believing fascism may be a political solution for the galaxy is possible but difficult to believe for me because he is no part of the FO and 
Hux suggests personal reasons on Kylo's part different from Snoke's intentions. kylo has his own agenda and his own reasons still unknown to us.
@Reynak

I need to clarify one thing- I had typed something wrong because I was in a hurry while posting the first post....the guy she stabs isn't her father....her father was already killed and appears as a ghost a few panels before to warn her that she will be used if she reveals her true nature....she stabs the jedi who is there to help her and some other people being kept prisoner and mistreated.

Now for Ben Solo- I am 110% sure that the Kylo Ren personality was forged as a result of torture and dark side training, and Ben Solo's true personality could be the complete opposite of it.....the new canon gives a very gruesome description of what is done to a person to make them turn and once they go to the dark side, they are usually given a new name (I don't mean sith lords....even general dark side users) .....I am not exaggerating when I say I couldn't sleep the night I read that chapter, which says a lot for the author's writing abilities.
I would have included excerpts like I normally do, but I don't think it is pleasant reading for anyone. Sad

@panki

What do you mean by new canon? I also believe Ben was groomed and brainwashed by Snoke because he was so terrified he flinched when Han tried to touch him as they met on that blasted catwalk, so he must be used to physical abuse, not by Han but by Snoke, or rather by his lackeys following his orders. I am also convinced that his soul is tainted by what he has been doing all these years in the DS and he probably has lost his way and doesn't know where he stands any more regardless what his original intentions where. Even if you think your cause is just, no cause is worthy enough to justify the loss of human lives or at least to make a honourable person think he or she is innocent after killing others. Even when done for prtection or a greater good killing takes a toll on the person who takes another's life.

Which new canon book do you refer to?
I'd really like to know what that training process involves because it is so difficult to imagine how someone like Ben, who wasn't really a bad seed, could end up where he is and killing his own father. Simple explanations like saying he was bad all along don't work for me. Unless someone is born a psycho who obtains pleasure from killing, everything is much more complex than that. In times of war horrible actions are made by people that would have led a "normal" life otherwise. We have to wonder why so many people end up in gangs, criminal organizations, sects or fanatical and extremist groups, politically or religion oriented. I can't believe all those people were or are bad seeds. Life is much more complex than that.

Where the movie has failed, in my view, is by confusing viewers by mixing a heavily dramatic plot and characterization for Ben and his family's tragedy with an extremely lighthearted approach to Rey and Finn's tragic childhoods. There is no way growing up like they did doesn't affect a child and I can't believe they would react like the do in the movie. The problem is not this obvious lack of realism but mixing their archs with Kylo's, which really holds the weigh of real tragedy. This may make Kylo seem entitled and whiny (when compared to the other two) to those who choose to buy the less realistic approach and/or Rey and Finn's characters seem unconvincing and not very well developed in other viewers eyes.
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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by panki on Fri 22 Apr - 15:38

Reynak wrote:Ü
panki wrote:
Reynak wrote:
@Reynak

I need to clarify one thing- I had typed something wrong because I was in a hurry while posting the first post....the guy she stabs isn't her father....her father was already killed and appears as a ghost a few panels before to warn her that she will be used if she reveals her true nature....she stabs the jedi who is there to help her and some other people being kept prisoner and mistreated.

Now for Ben Solo- I am 110% sure that the Kylo Ren personality was forged as a result of torture and dark side training, and Ben Solo's true personality could be the complete opposite of it.....the new canon gives a very gruesome description of what is done to a person to make them turn and once they go to the dark side, they are usually given a new name (I don't mean sith lords....even general dark side users) .....I am not exaggerating when I say I couldn't sleep the night I read that chapter, which says a lot for the author's writing abilities.
I would have included excerpts like I normally do, but I don't think it is pleasant reading for anyone. Sad

@panki

What do you mean by new canon? I also believe Ben was groomed and brainwashed by Snoke because he was so terrified he flinched when Han tried to touch him as they met on that blasted catwalk, so he must be used to physical abuse, not by Han but by Snoke, or rather by his lackeys following his orders. I am also convinced that his soul is tainted by what he has been doing all these years in the DS and he probably has lost his way and doesn't know where he stands any more regardless what his original intentions where. Even if you think your cause is just, no cause is worthy enough to justify the loss of human lives or at least to make a honourable person think he or she is innocent after killing others. Even when done for prtection or a greater good killing takes a toll on the person who takes another's life.

Which new canon book do you refer to?
I'd really like to know what that training process involves because it is so difficult to imagine how someone like Ben, who wasn't really a bad seed, could end up where he is and killing his own father. Simple explanations like saying he was bad all along don't work for me. Unless someone is born a psycho who obtains pleasure from killing, everything is much more complex than that. In times of war horrible actions are made by people that would have led a "normal" life otherwise. We have to wonder why so many people end up in gangs, criminal organizations, sects or fanatical and extremist groups, politically or religion oriented. I can't believe all those people were or are bad seeds. Life is much more complex than that.

Where the movie has failed, in my view, is by confusing viewers by mixing a heavily dramatic plot and characterization for Ben and his family's tragedy with an extremely lighthearted approach to Rey and Finn's tragic childhoods. There is no way growing up like they did doesn't affect a child and I can't believe they would react like the do in the movie. The problem is not this obvious lack of realism but mixing their archs with Kylo's, which really holds the weigh of real tragedy. This may make Kylo seem entitled and whiny (when compared to the other two) to those who choose to buy the less realistic approach and/or Rey and Finn's characters seem unconvincing and not very well developed in other viewers eyes.
@Reynak

I was talking about the new books/comics/short stories released by Disney and LF as compared to the old EU stories...I changed my post about torture used in canon because I felt silly in retrospect being so disturbed by the descriptions in a novel, considering how amused I get when antis claim they need to leave the room when the TFA interrogation scene happens (I guess the author writes well and I tend to visualise what I read...not a happy combo Razz)

I was referring to the novel- Dark Disciple, the love story of a former sith and a jedi who share a force bond i.e. a version of the Revan and Bastila story. It gives a very graphic description of what it takes to make a person turn to the dark side....I can post a few extracts or I can PM you parts of it if you'd like. I'm sure Snoke and his cronies did something similar to Ben Solo....and the maximum Han might be guilty of is being an absent parent...but I don't see Han as being an abusive parent.

I also agree with what you mentioned about the TFA being confusing.....Kylo is such a lovely complex character but it was so subtle that many were left thinking him emo.....Rey's abilities can be easily explained (and they were in the novel- Before the Awakening) but she came across as a Mary Sue to many....and Finn was all sunshine and rainbows....definitely not a brainwashed child soldier of an evil regime.....not to mention his killing of his fellow stormtroopers without a moment of doubt or regret....and then putting the lives of Han, Chewie, his best friend Poe and the whole resistance into jeopardy over Rey.....it made no sense to me at all..... if I didn't read the novels and comics, I would be pretty confused.....maybe that is the plan....people are forced to buy the additional material to make sense of it all. Suspect

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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by Reynak on Fri 22 Apr - 16:45

panki wrote:
Reynak wrote:Ü
panki wrote:
Reynak wrote:
@Reynak

I need to clarify one thing- I had typed something wrong because I was in a hurry while posting the first post....the guy she stabs isn't her father....her father was already killed and appears as a ghost a few panels before to warn her that she will be used if she reveals her true nature....she stabs the jedi who is there to help her and some other people being kept prisoner and mistreated.

Now for Ben Solo- I am 110% sure that the Kylo Ren personality was forged as a result of torture and dark side training, and Ben Solo's true personality could be the complete opposite of it.....the new canon gives a very gruesome description of what is done to a person to make them turn and once they go to the dark side, they are usually given a new name (I don't mean sith lords....even general dark side users) .....I am not exaggerating when I say I couldn't sleep the night I read that chapter, which says a lot for the author's writing abilities.
I would have included excerpts like I normally do, but I don't think it is pleasant reading for anyone. Sad

@panki

What do you mean by new canon? I also believe Ben was groomed and brainwashed by Snoke because he was so terrified he flinched when Han tried to touch him as they met on that blasted catwalk, so he must be used to physical abuse, not by Han but by Snoke, or rather by his lackeys following his orders. I am also convinced that his soul is tainted by what he has been doing all these years in the DS and he probably has lost his way and doesn't know where he stands any more regardless what his original intentions where. Even if you think your cause is just, no cause is worthy enough to justify the loss of human lives or at least to make a honourable person think he or she is innocent after killing others. Even when done for prtection or a greater good killing takes a toll on the person who takes another's life.

Which new canon book do you refer to?
I'd really like to know what that training process involves because it is so difficult to imagine how someone like Ben, who wasn't really a bad seed, could end up where he is and killing his own father. Simple explanations like saying he was bad all along don't work for me. Unless someone is born a psycho who obtains pleasure from killing, everything is much more complex than that. In times of war horrible actions are made by people that would have led a "normal" life otherwise. We have to wonder why so many people end up in gangs, criminal organizations, sects or fanatical and extremist groups, politically or religion oriented. I can't believe all those people were or are bad seeds. Life is much more complex than that.

Where the movie has failed, in my view, is by confusing viewers by mixing a heavily dramatic plot and characterization for Ben and his family's tragedy with an extremely lighthearted approach to Rey and Finn's tragic childhoods. There is no way growing up like they did doesn't affect a child and I can't believe they would react like the do in the movie. The problem is not this obvious lack of realism but mixing their archs with Kylo's, which really holds the weigh of real tragedy. This may make Kylo seem entitled and whiny (when compared to the other two) to those who choose to buy the less realistic approach and/or Rey and Finn's characters seem unconvincing and not very well developed in other viewers eyes.
@Reynak

I was talking about the new books/comics/short stories released by Disney and LF as compared to the old EU stories...I changed my post about torture used in canon because I felt silly in retrospect being so disturbed by the descriptions in a novel, considering how amused I get when antis claim they need to leave the room when the TFA interrogation scene happens (I guess the author writes well and I tend to visualise what I read...not a happy combo Razz)

I was referring to the novel- Dark Disciple, the love story of a former sith and a jedi who share a force bond i.e. a version of the Revan and Bastila story. It gives a very graphic description of what it takes to make a person turn to the dark side....I can post a few extracts or I can PM you parts of it if you'd like. I'm sure Snoke and his cronies did something similar to Ben Solo....and the maximum Han might be guilty of is being an absent parent...but I don't see Han as being an abusive parent.

I also agree with what you mentioned about the TFA being confusing.....Kylo is such a lovely complex character but it was so subtle that many were left thinking him emo.....Rey's abilities can be easily explained (and they were in the novel- Before the Awakening) but she came across as a Mary Sue to many....and Finn was all sunshine and rainbows....definitely not a brainwashed child soldier of an evil regime.....not to mention his killing of his fellow stormtroopers without a moment of doubt or regret....and then putting the lives of Han, Chewie, his best friend Poe and the whole resistance into jeopardy over Rey.....it made no sense to me at all..... if I didn't read the novels and comics, I would be pretty confused.....maybe that is the plan....people are forced to buy the additional material to make sense of it all. Suspect
@panki


I agree so much. Finn could have been a fascinating character but he was not, he made no sense in TFA, the same can be said about Rey and it isn't the actors' fault but the writing and directing. I could buy it if it wasn't for Kylo and his whole family's tragedy. What happened to that family is the worst nightmare one can face as a parent or close relative, losing a young boy to an evil group and then his becoming a killer. I don't know if murderer is the right word for him because his killing was always related to acts or war in the movie (even Han's, because Han had come to blow up the base)but he is a killer anyway.

So, is this a lighthearted adventure flick where baddies are all band and their aim is to conquer the whole world (galaxy) and rule it? Then what is that incredible scene between a father and a son that left me (and many others) spellbound by its intensity, complexity and haunting beauty? This doesn't add up. Are we to understand the movie as just an uncomplicated flick where it is unneccesary to judge if the characters have a minimum of credibility, if they would really make sense in a real situation? Or is this a gritty dark movie where nihilism permeates everything? Or is it supposed to be understood from a more realistic point of view, in which only Kylo would make sense? I tend to think Kylo is the best character in the movie by far,the only honest characterization in TFA. I also loved Han and how HF played him, but his character also had humanity and shadows, the same can probably said of Luke and Leia because they failed Kylo, they were unable to support him and help him.

So, why do our beloved OT characters have flaws and failures and those new kids are flawless? Why is the last Skywalker so lost and apparently doomed without redemption?

How can this tragedy be mixed with the life of a little girl who lives alone in desert with an amoral "protector" who would probably have taken advantage of her in a real situation? And if he didn't someone would, if she even survived alone in that place. How does a little girl survive in a world like that?

And then Finn, how did he get over braiwashing when Kylo, with all his power couldn't, why was he strong enought to leave the DS while Kylo looked at him probably envious because he had the guts to do what he could not? Unless Kylo has ulterior motives to stay in the DS and they prevent him from going away, either he is weaker that Finn or a complete masochist who enjoys suffering. And what about Finn doing anything for Ray or even saving Poe (because it is the right thing to do) and then killing his comrades, the people he shared his life with for as long as he can remember, without a second thought, as you have pointed out?

Nothing makes sense because Rey and Finn belong in a children's book, no not really, because children's books usually have more depth and truth than their characters. They can't teach children much through this characters when they are nothing like real people,they don't suffer like real people, have no flaws and never fail, never disappoint whereas Kylo has never managed to live up to anyone's expectations. Real kids feel fear, they get angry, have tantrums,have failures and doubts and sometimes they behave badly. How much better is to portray someone that feels real and overcomes his/hear shortcomings?

Even if they chose to go for the easier path where good guys are perfect and flawless, consistency should have been a priority and Kylo shouldn't have been portraid so subtly, he should have been a generic bad guy or an antivillain people could understand better. Either subtlety or obviousness, but both things together in the same movie make it very confusing. There is a lot of beauty in this movie, but this mess is something I personaly don't like. I still love the movie, because there's beauty in flawed things and it probably stands out more dramatically because of the contradictions, but the flaws are there, IMHO.

I also think that a movie should be understood in itself and if we have to go to other products like the novels to understand it, that's a serious problem. I like reading novels and that's great, but to get inmersed in the movie's world again, not to be able to understand it. A good film doesn't need any explanations outside itself to be understood well, that's why I dislike all the circus around this movie with tweets and information given in interviews. I enjoy them like anyone else but if they are necessary for people to understand the movie, something didn't work.

And I like mysteries as much as anyone, but I also want my answers delivered in a meaningful way and in due time. I used to love Lost but the mysteries were more interesting than their answers and people got the impression the writers didn't really have an explanation for them and just improvised one to close the show. I stopped watching when that was quite obvious and it was a pity because I loved the show's first and second season. Sometimes answers come too late when people have already lost interest because you haven't offered any when people wanted them.


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Re: Interesting EU Parallel to Han Solo Death Scene

Post by panki on Fri 22 Apr - 17:03

@Reynak

Warning: Long Long Post

Edit: I just read your post....it beautifully explains the conundrum I myself feel about these movies.....and unless they resolve it properly (I am hoping they do in the sequel), people will be left feeling cheated or lose interest.....Before the Awakening gave me some closure regarding Rey's abilities but I m still wondering how people can imagine any of the OT3 leaving her as a small child with shady Unkar Plutt......Dark Disciple has given me a few answers regarding why Kylo behaves the way he does but I hope to still learn more....Finn as you rightly said is bad writing and direction.....even the Before the Awakening novel didn't help me understand the character better Sad

I'm pasting some extracts from Dark Disciple that pertain to (1) Force Bonds and (2) Dark side training through torture. Now this novel is near identical to Revan and Bastila's story except the former sith is female (Ventress) and the jedi is male (Vos). I have a feeling some of these extracts can easily be applied to Rey and Ben Solo...and the torture scene references can be applied to Luke, Leia and Han....I can understand Ben Solo's obsession with the truth and also the references to traitors and liars and murderers...... Shocked

Let me start with the nicer one of the two-Force Bonds. I don't think people can hold actual conversations through a force bond but they can sense the other person's presence and emotions. In this book, Asajj Ventress is the only person who knows Vos has completely turned to the dark side because of their force bond. The other jedi are unable to detect it until he ends up sabotaging them, kills more than a 100 clone troopers and kill two of his friends using the jedi mind trick.

This is what Yoda mentions about them:
When one trusts another with his life, forged a bond is. In this position, neither Vos nor Ventress has been.

And this is when they acknowledge their force bond, though it formed earlier in the book:
Vos smiled at her, fully, freely. No shadow of regret lay upon him, only a calm certainty. An emotion surged through Ventress that was so alien she almost didn’t recognize it as joy. The name of another feeling, richer and deeper, hovered unspoken between them, danced on her lips—perhaps on his, as well.
They had a bond, real and vibrant and strong, that seemed to her to be unbreakable.


_____________

Now to dark side training through torture- the torture is both mental and physical....one can almost imagine Kylo trying to get information on the FO to help the resistance in the same way Vos tries to get information from Dooku.....now there is a part where Count Dooku makes Vos use psychometry on a lightsaber....I immediately thought of Snoke/the KOR making Kylo touch Vader's burnt helmet in a similar situation....

There was no way for Vos to reckon the passage of time in the cell. It could have been a few days, or a month. The lights were always on. Meals, when they came, were at irregular intervals. Droids monitored his sleep patterns to ensure that he was jolted awake in agony during the REM stage.

The count came when he pleased, in silence; sometimes to observe Vos simply hanging, suspended, while a torture droid went about its programming. Other times, Dooku entered the cell, casually blasting Vos with Force lightning so that the former Jedi Master was reduced to screaming and writhing helplessly.

Each time, Vos tried to get him to talk, to find out what Dooku wanted. The count liked to gloat, and it was possible that he might let something slip that might be of help—some reference to the layout of this place, perhaps, or an unguarded comment on troop movements.

It was a futile effort. Vos was nothing more than an animal tormented for no apparent reason save Dooku’s whim. And Vos knew, despite his training, both in the light and, now, the dark side of the Force, if that went on long enough…that was what he would eventually become.

So when Vos heard Dooku’s footfalls over the hum of the torture device that bathed him in erratic pulses of energy designed to target nerve endings, he was not hopeful. But he refused to give up.

For the tenth, or perhaps the thousandth time, Vos lifted his head. He twitched as another agonizing pulse seared him but bit back a cry. Dooku, as always, was smiling, as if he were a kindly grandparent watching a child at play.

For the thousandth, or perhaps tenth time, Vos asked in a voice raw from screaming, “Why not just kill me and be done with it?”

_______

Then some mental torture: (Think of Luke/Leia being used in this context instead of Ventress)

“Tell me,” Dooku said, “what did you hope to gain by teaming up with Asajj Ventress?”

All this time of silence, and he asked this? Vos was so surprised that the pain receded for a moment. The droid monitoring his reactions gave a passable impression of a frown and upped the level. Vos couldn’t entirely smother a hiss of agony.

“I think that’s…obvious enough,” he said through the pain. “I was…s-sent to eliminate you.”
Dooku stroked his beard thoughtfully. “It seems a desperate strike by the Jedi Council, not to rely solely on their vaunted Jedi Knights for such a task. Has the Order become so weak in my absence?”

Vos rallied as best he could. Looking Dooku square in the eye, he managed a chuckle. “Look around, Dooku. On every front, the Republic is winning the war.”

“I’m so glad you think so. But you are changing the subject.” He shook a chiding finger at Vos. “I was not asking you about the war. I was speaking of Ventress.”

Instantly Vos was on alert. He had been in so much pain when he had been captured, he wasn’t sure what, exactly, had happened. Had Ventress abandoned him by choice? Or had they forced her off? His memories of that night were so fuzzy… “Ventress has no sense of charity,”

Dooku went on. “She would not help you unless she had something to gain.”
“She sure hates you,” Vos offered.

“Of course she does,” Dooku replied. “But she never works with anyone she can’t control.”
A sick jolt went through Vos. He thought about the previous attempts Ventress had made on Dooku’s life.

Then, she was in the company of her sisters, or else had—quite literally—created and shaped what she had thought would be the perfect co-assassin.
Had she been creating and shaping him as well?

Have caution, Quinlan, Kenobi had warned him. Ventress is nothing if not manipulative. She won’t hesitate to use your trust against you the instant it serves her own selfish purposes.

“Well,” Vos said, forcing his voice to be confident, “maybe you don’t know her like I do.”
Dooku arched an eyebrow, suddenly keenly attentive. “No,” the count mused. “Perhaps I do not. But I see you do know her. Quite intimately, in fact, hmm?”
Vos didn’t reply.

Dooku stepped closer. “I sense much fear in you, Vos.”
Vos seized the chance. He would control the fear, turn it to anger; anger turns to hate, and hate made him strong. “You’re wrong,” he scoffed.
“I’m not afraid of you!”

“No, I don’t believe you are,” Dooku agreed. “But you are afraid.”

Vos tried to redirect his thoughts, to focus on the loathing he felt for the man standing so smugly, so
certain of his power, before him. But he was so weary and weak, and the pain kept directing his thoughts from strength to fear.
“Your thoughts betray you,” Dooku said, and despairing, Vos knew it was true. “Ventress was teaching you. Well, well…this explains much.”

“You’re wrong. There’s nothing she could teach me!”
Dooku shook his head and sighed. “You do yourself no favors by lying to me. You yourself said that you had a good teacher. Don’t you remember?”

Vos struggled to keep his face from revealing the stab of anguish as he realized that, indeed, he had forgotten. What else was he not remembering?

“I left the Jedi because I had grown beyond them,” Dooku continued. “But I see now that you and I, Vos, have much in common.”
Vos rallied at the abhorrent words. “You and I are nothing alike. You’re a traitor!”

“And what are you?” Dooku’s normally modulated voice cracked like a whip. “You were raised in the Jedi Temple, but now you reek of the dark side! Soon enough, you will stop denying the truth of so very many things. And you will understand that I am not a traitor, but a visionary!

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hatred leads to suffering.”
The count nodded to the torture droid. This time, Vos convulsed in the grip of the blue crackle of electricity.

“But what the Jedi failed to teach you, what I have learned, is how to persevere, to pass through the suffering, and achieve ultimate power!”
Dooku nodded again. The pain stopped. Sweat ran down Vos’s face. His heart was racing, his body quivering in remembered agony. “Do not worry, my apprentice.

The lessons that Ventress began—I shall now complete.”
He waved a dismissive hand to the droid, and Vos tensed in anticipation of the next wave of electricity that would jolt through his body. Dooku turned.

_______________________

And now a combo to physical and mental torture:

More time passed. More torture, more screams, more nightmares in the few moments when Vos passed out long enough to have them. He dreamed of darkness and blood, of fear of danger known, which was bad, and danger imagined, which was worse.

The worst dreams of all were of Ventress. Sometimes she was his torturer, sneering as she blasted him with Force lightning, reveling in his pain.

She told him that everything she had said, everything they had shared together, was a lie, and reveled in the fact that this hurt him far more than physical pain.

But the dreams Vos dreaded even more than those were the ones where he held Ventress in his arms.
When she told him she loved him, and he knew it to be true.

His senses had grown dull. He had no taste or hunger for food, no sensitivity to anything but the agony of the various methods the droid used to inflame his nerves or lacerate and then heal his body. Vos alternated between numb and sluggish and excruciatingly alive with torment. He ate only because some part of him knew he needed to keep up what little strength he had left. He, Dooku, and the droid had been performing this dance for enough time that Vos’s muscles were beginning to weaken, except for those that screamed constantly from being placed in positions they were never designed to execute. The dreams this time had been particularly bad, so when the droid came to awaken him, Vos actually welcomed it. He was surprised when the droid deactivated the force field that had held him suspended by his arms. Unable to catch himself, he fell awkwardly as he dropped a meter to the floor. Stiff from lack of movement for so very long, his shoulders and arms were on fire, and Vos bit back a scream. It felt like the snake venom that had coursed through his system on Dathomir, which led back to thoughts of Ventress.

“Get up,” the droid ordered. When Vos failed to comply, the droid signaled. Two battle droids appeared and snapped to attention. The torture droid deactivated the force field and the battle droids stepped inside. They wrenched Vos’s arms behind his back and snapped on a pair of binders, then each took one of his arms. As they dragged him out of the cell, the agony in his arms increased a thousandfold, and once again blackness descended.
________________

And now mental torture:

Vos came to when he was tossed to the ground. He lay there for a moment, then became aware of the smells. Roasted meats, the tang of freshly cut fruits, the sweet fragrance of just-baked pastries—real food, not the tasteless stuff he had been forced to consume. Moisture flooded his mouth, and for the first time since the hideous ordeal began, his stomach rumbled. Slowly, hissing, he pushed himself up to a kneeling position and took in his surroundings.

The room was large and lavish. Fine art from a variety of worlds hung on the walls. The carpeting beneath Vos was thick and comfortable. Soft music came from somewhere, and a large, ornately carved cabinet hung on the wall. All these things, Vos noticed only fleetingly. His eyes were riveted on the display before him, which was both inviting and obscene. There were, quite literally, dozens of foodstuffs on a dining table that could easily have seated sixteen.
And at the head of it, pouring effervescent wine into a fluted glass, sat Count Dooku.

He lifted the glass in a toast to Vos. “Welcome,” he said, and drank.
This was perhaps the worst torture yet, but Vos steeled himself. If Dooku thought to see him beg for table scraps, the count would be sorely disappointed. Vos swallowed so he could speak. “Well, look at you and your pampered life.” His voice dripped contempt. “Your servants, your feast, your palace. It must have been so easy for you to turn your back on the Jedi Order.”

Dooku cut another bite from the thick, rare steak and lifted it to his mouth. Juices dripped onto the plate.

He chewed with obvious enjoyment, dabbed at his lips with the napkin, and then replied.
“Yes,” he agreed, “I live a privileged existence now. But like you, Vos, I too was taken from my home
as an infant and raised in the Jedi Temple. It was only later in my life that I discovered my true heritage— a legacy of power and pedigree that was far too intimidating for the Council to accept.”

A plate was set at the far end of the table. Food was within easy reach of it, and the flute of wine had been filled. Clearly, Vos would be welcome to dine with the count—if he requested it. Vos tried to decide which was the smarter course of action—refusing to give Dooku the satisfaction of eating, or taking the chance to consume some real food that would increase his strength.

“Pedigree,” he scoffed. “Like an animal. You could have done so much, helped so many people. Instead you used that legacy to spread your evil throughout the galaxy.” The fragrance of the freshly baked bread in front of him almost broke him. Dooku rose from his seat, setting down his napkin and picking up his glass of wine. He walked to the entrance of a large, open balcony and pulled back the gently billowing curtains. For the first time since he had been taken, Vos had a sense of time. It was night, here on whatever world he was on, and the stars glittered serenely, teasing him with a freedom he didn’t have.

“Evil?” Dooku chuckled. “What a childish notion. Unworthy of you, Vos. Today’s lesson begins with this.” He turned and regarded Vos, the glass still in hand. “There is no good or evil. Only those with power, and those without it.”

Vos grunted in disgust. He had decided against eating. If he started, he wasn’t sure he could stop, and he refused to let Dooku see just how famished he was.
“Your Master Tholme understood this.” Dooku tossed out this verbal grenade with utter casualness. For a moment a sheet of red darkened Vos’s vision, and he was so outraged he couldn’t breathe.

“How dare you speak his name! You murdered him!” Dooku looked convincingly surprised, and then almost sad. “Ah…so that’s what she said.

Given your, er, relationship with Ventress, I wondered if you knew the truth. It was she who killed your Master, not I.”
“You lie!” shouted Vos, trying to rise. The droids shoved him back down.

“No, Quinlan. I don’t have to lie.” Dooku shook his head. He stepped into the hall and motioned. A moment later, a squat technical droid rolled into the room. Dooku went to it and tapped a few controls as he spoke.

“One of the many advantages of having a droid army in the field is the ability to study the battle recording. Win or lose, I always find the holorecord…illuminating.”

A final tap, and Dooku straightened. The droid chirped and then began to project the scene of a battle on a planet Vos couldn’t identify. He could make out the figures of what seemed like countless battle droids locked in combat with hundreds of clones. A major conflict, then. Vos’s throat tightened, dreading what he would see.

“Magnify,” ordered Dooku. The hologram shifted, then narrowed its focus to a handful of combatants. One of them was Master Tholme. Despite himself, Vos gasped slightly. He was surprised at how painful it was to behold an image of his Master. Tholme’s gray-streaked black hair was held back in a long ponytail. He stood his ground, his lightsaber, green as Vos’s own, a blur as he shouted out orders and cut down battle droids. Suddenly there came two flashes of red. A woman—bald, pale as the stars, clad in black leather and expertly wielding twin lightsabers, appeared.

Asajj Ventress.
The Jedi and the Sith acolyte engaged in a heated fight. Ventress’s lightsabers had unusually curved hilts, so that she needed to wield them in a slightly different manner from the standard, straight lightsabers. Vos watched, forgetting to breathe, horrified but unable to tear his gaze away from the brutal spectacle. Then, so swiftly Vos couldn’t even see what happened, Ventress had gotten the upper hand.

Tholme’s lightsaber went flying. Ventress pointed both her weapons at Tholme. He raised his hands and knelt before her. Surrendering.
Ventress ran him through.

One glowing blade pierced Tholme’s heart. The other gutted him. Vos’s beloved Master fell to the ground.

“Freeze” came Dooku’s voice, as if from far away. Vos’s blood thundered in his ears. He stared at the miniature Tholme, dead, and at the tiny Ventress, standing before the treacherously slain Jedi and grinning in triumph.

“Ventress was a fair apprentice,” Dooku continued. “However, as she became more powerful, her lust for bloodshed could not be sated. She grew ever more violent and unpredictable.” Vos stared, his gaze roving the face he had caressed, the lips he had kissed.
“She slaughtered Master Tholme, against my orders. We had the battle won, there was no reason to justify the death of an old friend.” Dooku’s voice, bizarrely, was kind, like that of a father comforting a devastated son.

“But—why would she do this? Keep this from me?” Vos’s voice sounded shattered, even to him.

“Ventress has a hunger for power. That is what she truly desires, and she would do anything, lie to anyone, to get what she wants.”

Dazed, Vos shook his head. His whole body ached from the motion. “No. No, not to me.” Dooku stepped closer, staring down at Vos. “Especially to you. I know. You thought you knew her, as I did. You thought she cared for you, but she was doing nothing but spinning a web of lies. Lies that I can free you from, as I freed myself!”

Vos didn’t answer. His gaze was fixed on the droid that had shown him such a horrible truth.
Or…had it?

He blinked. There was something about Dooku and recordings…what was it? And then he remembered.
Now Vos stared up at the count, his mind clear and focused once again, his voice strong.

“You falsified this recording,” Vos snarled. “You erased yourself and put Ventress in your place. It’s easy to do. You’ve tried to fool the Jedi with this trick before!”

Dooku looked at him sadly. “You grasp at straws, Vos. I understand why. It is a hard thing to accept, that the world you thought you knew was not the truth. It is difficult to step away from everything, to let go. But  do it, Vos. Come away from that false world. Join me!”
“I will never join you!”

Dooku turned away, pacing, now and then glancing back at Vos as if trying to make up his mind about something. “I think I must show you the cabinet, after all,” he said. “Truly, I would have spared you this, if I could have. Remember that I did try.” “The cabinet,” Vos repeated. “What’s that, some fun new style of torture?”

“That all depends on you, Quinlan. It will, truly, be in your own hands.”
“I think I’d like to go back to my prison cell. I prefer straightforward torment to this preposterous game you’re playing. You won’t break me, Dooku.”

“You know, I believe I won’t,” agreed the count, surprising Vos. “But you will break all the same. And it will be your choice to do so.”

Dooku walked toward the end of the room and stood before the cabinet. Vos tensed, not knowing what new horror Dooku would subject him to this time.
“Your proof is in here,” Dooku said.

“You think if your little holoshow didn’t convince me, something else will?” Vos sneered.
“I do,” the count replied with complete confidence. A chill shivered through Vos. Dooku seemed so certain. Vos felt sweat break out on his forehead and beneath his arms. What the hell was in that deceptively ordinary-looking cabinet? With one final, almost regretful glance at Vos, Dooku opened the cabinet’s double doors.

Mounted with great care, resplendent against a padded background of blue velvet, hung at least twenty lightsabers. A portion of the case was bare; Dooku had left room for the collection to expand. Vos swallowed hard, fighting nausea, unable to tear his eyes away. “Whenever Grievous or Ventress cut down a Jedi, they brought me these little souvenirs of the battle,” Dooku said in a casual tone. “They make for quite the handsome display, don’t you think?”

I remember that battle.
You were there?
No. Dooku bragged about it to me. It was he who killed your Master. He even kept Tholme’s lightsaber as a trophy.

Blood thundered in Vos’s ears. The hilts were crafted of metal, or wood, or even gems, each as unique as the Jedi who had made it. With a soft sound Vos closed his eyes and turned his head.

“Make him look,” Dooku ordered sharply, and there was steel in his voice. A battle droid dug its metal fingers into Vos’s hair and yanked his head back.

“I believe in the old adage Know your enemy,” Dooku said. “I’ve spent a considerable amount of time studying the Jedi Masters. I know their strengths, their weaknesses—and their unique skills. For instance, I know that you, Quinlan Vos, have the rare gift of psychometry.”

And with a sickening realization, Vos suddenly knew what Dooku was about to do.
“Free his hands,” Dooku said to the droids. Vos stayed completely still as the droids obeyed their master. He flexed his wrists, ignoring the sensation of numb limbs tingling to life, and got to his feet, stumbling awkwardly.

“I’m certain you’ll want to determine the truth in a way it is impossible for you to deny,” Dooku continued. A thought seemed to occur to him. “Although…I imagine it will be more than a trifle unpleasant. Isn’t it true that, in addition to seeing and hearing things regarding the object you touch, you will also experience what its owner felt? Hmm?”

Count Dooku smiled, and held out Tholme’s lightsaber.
For a long moment, Vos simply stared at the weapon. Then, uttering a wordless cry, he launched himself at Dooku. The count did not appear to have been expecting this, and Vos was able to wrap his hands around the other man’s neck and squeeze, using the Force to increase the pressure. But even so, he was much weaker than the count, and Dooku broke the chokehold and sent Force lightning throughout Vos’s body.

While Vos writhed on the floor, Dooku got to his feet and ordered the droids, “Take him back to the cell.
But do not restrain him. And,” he added, handing one of them Tholme’s weapon, “take this with you.”

The droids each took one of Vos’s arms and hauled him up. Panting, Vos lifted his head.

“You can make me touch it,” Vos gasped, “but you can’t force me to read it!”

“I know,” Dooku said mildly. “But you will, Vos. Eventually, you will.”

_______________________________________

Ventress tries to rescue Vos but he has already turned dark...note the words he uses at the end of this extract:

The cells were all empty. Dooku must have finished with the prisoners she remembered and not
replenished his stock. Except for Vos. She ran down the hallways, glancing left and right into each cell,
rounding the corner—
He knelt, his back to her. His back was bowed and his body shook, as if with sobs.
“Vos!” Ventress cried brokenly, slamming the controls with her palm and deactivating the force field.
He froze, but didn’t turn around. A lump rose in her throat. Slowly, Ventress stepped forward, reaching out to touch his shoulder. “It’s me, Vos. I came back for—”
Still without turning, Vos lifted a hand and clenched his fist. Ventress shot into the air. Invisible fingers strangled her. Blood pounded in her ears as she clawed futilely at her throat, struggling to force words out.
“Quinlan…no…”
“You,” he said, “are a liar…and a murderer.”

_____________________________________

After this chapter, Count Dooku has successfully concerted Vos to the dark side and he is renamed Admiral Enigma....he starts killing both jedi and soldiers of the republic in battle...and becomes so feared that the jedi council want to have him captured and executed. Only Vos's friends Obi-wan and Desh want to save him.
__________________________________

Snoke said he wanted to complete Kylo's training in TFA....in this novel, Obi-wan, Anakin and Ventress come upon Vos in Dooku's starship and this is what they see (I remember one of the TFA accompanying materials mention that Kylo's skin looked like it hadn't been exposed to the sun in a long time...and I've always wondered why Kylo is so covered up... this extract caught my attention)

Vos hung, naked to the waist, from glowing shackles. His back was toward Kenobi, and Obi-Wan felt a pang of empathetic pain at the sight. Dooku, it seemed, had decided to forgo more elaborate methods of torture in favor of the basic ones. Vos’s broad back was a ribbon of older scars and newer welts; some were scabbed over, and not a few were still bleeding. His once-muscular but sleek frame was emaciated and pale, as if he had not seen the sunlight in months. He appeared to be unconscious. “Vos!” Kenobi rushed forward. He cradled Vos’s brutalized body in one arm while he slashed with his lightsaber at the shackles. Vos cried out sharply as his arms shifted from the position they had been forced to maintain for who knew how long. Obi-Wan eased him to the floor.
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