Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by BastilaBey on Thu 21 Apr - 21:35

@vaderito

This fandom is exhausting and everyone needs to chill. I'm already seeing comments like 'see you guys have to stop excusing his actions he was an adult and is fully responsible' like...how about not putting words in our mouths? I haven't seen a single Reylo shipper say Kylo doesn't know what he's doing or has no blame. it is tiring having to justify every position or possible character motivation when we don't even have the full picture
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Apr - 21:37

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 21 Apr - 21:45

An interesting parallel that I just thought of...

If Kylo really does turn at 23, and as some have proposed, the "turning" was as a result of ideological differences with Luke--perhaps switching sides during an attack or military operation, wasn't Finn supposed to have been 23 during TFA? So if that scenario happened, there's another parallel between those two characters.

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by Gemini on Thu 21 Apr - 21:45

Maybe it was when the dark side woke in him like reys moment when the light woke in her
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Apr - 21:46

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:An interesting parallel that I just thought of...

If Kylo really does turn at 23, and as some have proposed, the "turning" was as a result of ideological differences with Luke--perhaps switching sides during an attack or military operation, wasn't Finn supposed to have been 23 during TFA? So if that scenario happened, there's another parallel between those two characters.
@ISeeAnIsland

Anakin also turned at 23 and Luke saved him at 23.  It appears that 23 is a magical Star Wars number. :-)
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 21 Apr - 21:48

@BastilaBey wrote:
@vaderito

This fandom is exhausting and everyone needs to chill. I'm already seeing comments like 'see you guys have to stop excusing his actions he was an adult and is fully responsible' like...how about not putting words in our mouths? I haven't seen a single Reylo shipper say Kylo doesn't know what he's doing or has no blame. it is tiring having to justify every position or possible character motivation when we don't even have the full picture
@BastilaBey

This fandom is exhausting, but to be fair, the mystery box has a lot to answer for. Nothing in the film itself implied that Kylo's turn had been recent. In fact, Leia's words, Han referring to a "boy", and Han's reaction when he sees the face of his son all kind of implied he'd been young. Especially Leia's words. It all seemed to refer to a son who'd been lost tragically young, when he went to study with Luke - not a few years previously as a grown man.

I know Pablo later said that the temple massacre (or whatever it is) was far more recent, but after seeing the film itself, somehow practically everyone - Reylos and antis alike - ended up with the same collective "headcanon" that Kylo was a teenager when he turned. The turn itself, and its reasons, were a mystery all along, but it's a bit tiresome that even the implied tragedy of Han and Leia losing their young son to the Dark Side turned out to be just a part of the mystery box.

Basically we saw TFA and seem to know even less than we knew before seeing TFA, heh.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by CienaRee on Thu 21 Apr - 21:50

@BastilaBey wrote:
@vaderito

This fandom is exhausting and everyone needs to chill. I'm already seeing comments like 'see you guys have to stop excusing his actions he was an adult and is fully responsible' like...how about not putting words in our mouths? I haven't seen a single Reylo shipper say Kylo doesn't know what he's doing or has no blame. it is tiring having to justify every position or possible character motivation when we don't even have the full picture
@BastilaBey

What's even more annoying is that they'll use Leia's POV about Ben being happy as proof that he was just an entitled brat who had aloving family an dbetrayed them because he wanted to rule the world or some crap like that.

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by Kessel on Thu 21 Apr - 21:52

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:An interesting parallel that I just thought of...

If Kylo really does turn at 23, and as some have proposed, the "turning" was as a result of ideological differences with Luke--perhaps switching sides during an attack or military operation, wasn't Finn supposed to have been 23 during TFA? So if that scenario happened, there's another parallel between those two characters.
@ISeeAnIsland

Anakin also turned at 23 and Luke saved him at 23.  It appears that 23 is a magical Star Wars number. :-)
@SoloSideCousin

Yep, 19 and 23.

Luke was 19 in ANH when he accapted his call and found the force and 23 when he faced his father and saved him. Anakin was 19 during AOTC and fell in love and married Padme. He then fell to the dark side at 23.  Rey (not implying she's Skywalker, but the parallel is there), was 19 during TFA and answers her call and finds the force. Kylo commits the massacre and falls to the dark at 23. I wonder if anything significant happened to him at 19??

I hadn't thought of the fact Finn was 23 when he left the FO, but it's another(inverse)  parallel! Interesting....
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Apr - 21:54

I'm honestly am not trying to be dismissive in any way, but I am surprised that people are surprised that he turned at 23. I've thought this was his turning age for months because (1) PH said Han and Leia were still together in Bloodlines, (2) Bloodlines took place 6 years before TFA, (3) PH said that Han and Leia broke up when Kylo became a murderer.

I don't think this necessarily makes Ren less sympathetic.  To me, if we believe that Snoke has been in his head since early childhood, he has to have been extremely emotionally resilient to have not fallen sooner, which tells me that his core person is probably very strong, which is why the light is still with him after all these years.

I assume a "straw that broke the camel's back" scenario.  Remember all those traitor posters of Leia online a few months ago over the Bloodlines cover.  It looks like her Vader heritage came out then.  What if that's when it came out to Kylo too, and he lost all his trust in them and/or Luke's padawans attacked him and he had a dark-side fueled rage where he got too powerful and killed too many people.  I mean basically some news like that, after all his years of grooming, could have brought on a really bad episode of dark side madness that he couldn't recover from once he pulled himself together.  I mean who says there wasn't a Manchurian!Kylo moment here?
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Apr - 21:56

@CienaRee wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:
@vaderito

This fandom is exhausting and everyone needs to chill. I'm already seeing comments like 'see you guys have to stop excusing his actions he was an adult and is fully responsible' like...how about not putting words in our mouths? I haven't seen a single Reylo shipper say Kylo doesn't know what he's doing or has no blame. it is tiring having to justify every position or possible character motivation when we don't even have the full picture
@BastilaBey

What's even more annoying is that they'll use Leia's POV about Ben being happy as proof that he was just an entitled brat who had aloving family an dbetrayed them because he wanted to rule the world or some crap like that.
@CienaRee

Where does it say that he was happy? That guy doesn't look like he had a happy day in his life.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 21 Apr - 21:57

Kessel89 wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:An interesting parallel that I just thought of...

If Kylo really does turn at 23, and as some have proposed, the "turning" was as a result of ideological differences with Luke--perhaps switching sides during an attack or military operation, wasn't Finn supposed to have been 23 during TFA? So if that scenario happened, there's another parallel between those two characters.
@ISeeAnIsland

Anakin also turned at 23 and Luke saved him at 23.  It appears that 23 is a magical Star Wars number. :-)
@SoloSideCousin

Yep, 19 and 23.

Luke was 19 in ANH when he accapted his call and found the force and 23 when he faced his father and saved him. Anakin was 19 during AOTC and fell in love and married Padme. He then fell to the dark side at 23.  Rey (not implying she's Skywalker, but the parallel is there), was 19 during TFA and answers her call and finds the force. Kylo commits the massacre and falls to the dark at 23. I wonder if anything significant happened to him at 19??

I hadn't thought of the fact Finn was 23 when he left the FO, but it's another(inverse)  parallel! Interesting....
@Kessel89

I wonder if we could have a situation where Kylo actually turned/joined the KOR at 19, but the academy massacre (or whatever it was) didn't occur until he was 23?  Or maybe Kylo joined KOR at 19 then came back and recruited Luke's remaining handful of students at 23 or something?

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 21 Apr - 21:58

@vaderito

I do not see anything crucial in this to call it a gate (or maybe I am missing something).
Claudia Grey did not read the script. But honestly do not think it is a big deal.
I am sure she s got enough info for the time frame she had to cover in her book.
For me it is another evidence that Rey (and Finn), are completely newcomers in this story and which is more important NOT RELATED to anyone who are supposedly part of the Bloodline. That s why I think that TFA was not crucial for Claudia Grey.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by Gemini on Thu 21 Apr - 21:58

I've had enough mind messing for one night, I've been in a bad mood since what happened earlier

Now this is just giving antis ammo and I can see why. I'm slighltly disturbed at the thought of him commiting all those murders pretty near to when he meets Rey, sorry but it's just how I'm feeling right now about it. I wasnt really paying attention to the timeline being discussed here but it's made me realise what we see in TFA is not truthful and is decieving and like "Lost" it's just a mind f****
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by MyOnlyHope on Thu 21 Apr - 21:58

@BastilaBey wrote:
@vaderito

This fandom is exhausting and everyone needs to chill. I'm already seeing comments like 'see you guys have to stop excusing his actions he was an adult and is fully responsible' like...how about not putting words in our mouths? I haven't seen a single Reylo shipper say Kylo doesn't know what he's doing or has no blame. it is tiring having to justify every position or possible character motivation when we don't even have the full picture
@BastilaBey
Ridiculous. Rolling Eyes Everybody here knows Kylo Ren is a detestable, selfish, entitled villain. He's fully responsible for every choice he's made. Of course that also applies to the choices he makes in the future. I'm fully expecting to hear some puzzling things about Ben's fall between now and episode VIII's release. But the story hasn't been told, and won't be told outside of the films. What happened at Luke's temple is one of the STs biggest mysteries. I wonder if Han and Leia even knew what happened. Luke obviously didn't even tell them where he was going when he took off.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by IoJovi on Thu 21 Apr - 21:59

That is absolutely fascinating about the ages. I am not going to get all crazy over Bloodgate, and the book isn't even out yet.

To me, the age of when Ben turned doesn't matter in regards to his redemption. He's had Snoke's shadow over him his entire life. So to me, it would show that he's stronger at resisting the temptation to turn at 23 as opposed to 15.

Also keep in mind that this may not be something that happened all at once, but a period over several years.

To those on the outside, it may seem like a 180° turn, but to Ben, I'm sure it's something he's been fighting for way too long.

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Apr - 21:59

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@vaderito

I do not see anything crucial in this to call it a gate (or maybe I am missing something).
Claudia Grey did not read the script. But honestly do not think it is a big deal.
I am sure she s got enough info for the time frame she had to cover in her book.
For me it is another evidence that Rey (and Finn), are completely newcomers in this story and which is more important NOT RELATED to anyone who are supposedly part of the Bloodline. That s why I think that TFA was not crucial for Claudia Grey.
@Darth_Awakened

Yeah, I agree. The only thing is that "Skyping with Han" thing or "Leia thought he was happy" thing people seem to be saying, but I didn't see that in the link.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by CienaRee on Thu 21 Apr - 22:02

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:
@vaderito

This fandom is exhausting and everyone needs to chill. I'm already seeing comments like 'see you guys have to stop excusing his actions he was an adult and is fully responsible' like...how about not putting words in our mouths? I haven't seen a single Reylo shipper say Kylo doesn't know what he's doing or has no blame. it is tiring having to justify every position or possible character motivation when we don't even have the full picture
@BastilaBey

This fandom is exhausting, but to be fair, the mystery box has a lot to answer for. Nothing in the film itself implied that Kylo's turn had been recent. In fact, Leia's words, Han referring to a "boy", and Han's reaction when he sees the face of his son all kind of implied he'd been young. Especially Leia's words. It all seemed to refer to a son who'd been lost tragically young, when he went to study with Luke - not a few years previously as a grown man.

I know Pablo later said that the temple massacre (or whatever it is) was far more recent, but after seeing the film itself, somehow practically everyone - Reylos and antis alike - ended up with the same collective "headcanon" that Kylo was a teenager when he turned. The turn itself, and its reasons, were a mystery all along, but it's a bit tiresome that even the implied tragedy of Han and Leia losing their young son to the Dark Side turned out to be just a part of the mystery box.

Basically we saw TFA and seem to know even less than we knew before seeing TFA, heh.
@Darth Dingbat


I think what's confusing to me is not that Kylo would turn to the Dark Side  in his twenties but the fact that he seems to have a great relationship with his aprents at leasta ccroding to these spoilers.Now,I wasn't expecing for him to have awful relationship with them but him having a loving relationship with them(I don't mean that they weren't loving parents I'm sure they were or they tried to be  but by the way Kylo perceived them).It clashes with the way he would be able to understand Rey's loneliness and isolation since he felt those things as well.I don't know it might be one of my headcannons for Kylo but I felt the way AD played him that he was lonely and isolated even before he became Kylo Ren which would explain why Snoke would be able to get a hold on him.I'm sure he loved his parents but I aways though he perecived them as people who put their duty first(at least in Leia's case)and not having had enough time to be there for him as a result which is what AD kind of alluded when he was speaking about Kylo's sense of abandonement and how that led to teh creation of Kylo Ren.

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Apr - 22:06

@IoJovi wrote:That is absolutely fascinating about the ages.  I am not going to get all crazy over Bloodgate, and the book isn't even out yet.  

To me, the age of when Ben turned doesn't matter in regards to his redemption.  He's had Snoke's shadow over him his entire life.  So to me, it would show that he's stronger at resisting the temptation to turn at 23 as opposed to 15.  

Also keep in mind that this may not be something that happened all at once, but a period over several years.  

To those on the outside, it may seem like a 180° turn, but to Ben, I'm sure it's something he's been fighting for way too long.
@IoJovi

THIS!!!!!! Maybe Leia and Han did think he was fine.  We also have gotten the impression that they weren't too clued into their son from a variety of sources.  This 23 thing makes me feel more sorry for him.  It's really tragic to have held on against the darkness for so many years and then to fall.  I want to know what made him fall.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by Kessel on Thu 21 Apr - 22:10

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
Kessel89 wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:An interesting parallel that I just thought of...

If Kylo really does turn at 23, and as some have proposed, the "turning" was as a result of ideological differences with Luke--perhaps switching sides during an attack or military operation, wasn't Finn supposed to have been 23 during TFA? So if that scenario happened, there's another parallel between those two characters.
@ISeeAnIsland

Anakin also turned at 23 and Luke saved him at 23.  It appears that 23 is a magical Star Wars number. :-)
@SoloSideCousin

Yep, 19 and 23.

Luke was 19 in ANH when he accapted his call and found the force and 23 when he faced his father and saved him. Anakin was 19 during AOTC and fell in love and married Padme. He then fell to the dark side at 23.  Rey (not implying she's Skywalker, but the parallel is there), was 19 during TFA and answers her call and finds the force. Kylo commits the massacre and falls to the dark at 23. I wonder if anything significant happened to him at 19??

I hadn't thought of the fact Finn was 23 when he left the FO, but it's another(inverse)  parallel! Interesting....
@Kessel89

I wonder if we could have a situation where Kylo actually turned/joined the KOR at 19, but the academy massacre (or whatever it was) didn't occur until he was 23?  Or maybe Kylo joined KOR at 19 then came back and recruited Luke's remaining handful of students at 23 or something?
@ISeeAnIsland

It's an interesting possibility if they want to inverse the "positive thing" that usually happens at 19. I just say that because in the past, it seemed that whatever happened at 19 to the characters was usually something positive or good thing in their development, unless maybe Kylo started with a mission that was initially good at 19, but something happened...

I wasn't surprised that Kylo turned at 23. I still think it's still very feasible that Snoke was working on him for years, and something really pushed Kylo over the edge, but I don't think we will find out what that was in 'Bloodline.'  Maybe it's tied up in Vader? The only confusing thing is that 'Bloodline' implies Leia, Han and Luke were in contact with Ben at the time? That's confusing because I got the impression Kylo was estranged from his family (especially Han) for some time.

TPTB seem to be making sure we are missing the important pieces. I feel like the more we learn, the less I think of any theories I initially thought.

Edit: I agree with others that Kylo's turn at 23 has no impact on his redeemability. It's still a big mystery...I am confused as to how he was in contact with his parents at the time. However, we won't find out anything substantive until 12/2017 anyway.


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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 21 Apr - 22:11

And I am not seeing any problem if Kylo turned at the age of 23 - we know already who he is, a man torn apart between dark and light, who committed a lots of unwise and selfish things (worst of all: killing Han), but it has nothing to do with his age. Turned at 15, or turned at 23 does not make any difference. We witnessed in TFA that his behavior is still totally immature at the age of 30. So really no need to panicking or gating about this.


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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 21 Apr - 22:13

@SoloSideCousin, I don't really think his turning at 23 makes him any more or less redeemable than before. We still don't know what happened, and we still have a highly conflicted young man who is suffering on the Dark Side and whose reasons for being there are a complete mystery. So I'm not worried about that.

But I'm just a bit irked by the mystery box (I've been irked by it all along, so that's not a new thing) and this habit of bits and bobs of new info coming out here and there that either contradict things we thought we knew or bring something totally new out of left field (like the ashes) that don't even add anything to the story we got in TFA. The temple massacre happening when Ben was 23 wasn't news to me, but not everybody follows Pablo, and this new information (especially his apparently good relationship with his parents) does make many things in TFA seem a bit "Huh?"

Between Ashgate and this, a lot of people have no idea where they stand anymore. It's a long time till December 2017 when we actually find out something new. When people have enjoyed a story as much as they've enjoyed TFA, it would be nice if people could just continue to enjoy and analyse the story we actually have, instead of being knocked around by new surprises all the time. And if I'm completely fair, the Reywalkers (though I don't agree with their theories) have had their minds messed with likewise.

Who knows, perhaps in a couple of months we will indeed find out that young Ben Solo had a secret wife and children, as somebody elsewhere theorised Razz At this point I'm starting to feel a bit "whatever" about new developments because I'm starting to feel like everything in TFA was part of the mystery box and the surprises will keep a-coming.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by IoJovi on Thu 21 Apr - 22:15

Let's also not forget that many older parents still see their children as kids, even into adulthood. That's why I don't really see the story of where Han tells of a boy who destroyed it all as inconsistency. I'm sure he still thinks of Ben as his boy.

Also remember that Bloodlines is told from Leia's perspective - not Ben's. It would be very plausible for her to think that her boy was fine, when he was clearly not.

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 21 Apr - 22:17

23 was the age I guessed as well (as @MyOnlyHope said). Guess how old Anakin was when he fell? 23. It's a direct parallel.

As for Leia believing everything was fine-and-dandy, that doesn't surprise me even a little. I very much got the sense that Han and Leia were so caught up in their own lives that they unintentionally turned a blind-eye to what was happening to Ben. Leia knew Snoke was watching him, and she and Han likely thought sending Ben to Luke was the best thing to do.

Kylo's sentiments of neglect and abandonment probably didn't reach his parents until it was already too late. He and Luke were off doing their own thing (away from Snoke). Leia had no reason to think anything was wrong. She assumed sending him to Luke solved the problem, but obviously something happened that won't be revealed until Episode VIII.

Lastly, Han's "one boy" and "his son's face as a man for the first time"... we don't know how long it had been since Han physically saw Ben. He was off training with Luke. His parents thought everything was fine, but I feel all three of them grew apart.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by IoJovi on Thu 21 Apr - 22:19

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:23 was the age I guessed as well (as @MyOnlyHope said). Guess how old Anakin was when he fell? 23. It's a direct parallel.

As for Leia believing everything was fine-and-dandy, that doesn't surprise me even a little. I very much got the sense that Han and Leia were so caught up in their own lives that they unintentionally turned a blind-eye to what was happening to Ben. Leia knew Snoke was watching him, and she and Han likely thought sending Ben to Luke was the best thing to do.

Kylo's sentiments of neglect and abandonment probably didn't reach his parents until it was already too late. He and Luke were off doing their own thing (away from Snoke). Leia had no reason to think anything was wrong. She assumed sending him to Luke solved the problem, but obviously something happened that won't be revealed until Episode VIII.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Yes, this! No wonder Ben felt abandoned. His own mother saw nothing that was amiss, or if it was, Luke would help her deal with the problem.

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by Gemini on Thu 21 Apr - 22:23

If Rey reaches 23 in this trilogy I wonder if it will be a moment where she almost turns?
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