Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by panki on Tue 2 Aug - 22:36

I was thinking about the discussion regarding the Dubrovnik shoot and interior scenes at the Rector's palace (and possibly Blenheim Palace and Alnwick Castle)....I wonder if Leia was meeting with the other members of the Elder Houses, maybe to discuss the political future of the Republic since a large portion of the galaxy's political leaders were killed by the Starkiller weapon....the Elder House members seem to be rulers and nobility from various planets whose powers seem more ceremonial at the time of the New Republic.

We learn a few things about the Elder Houses from the novel Bloodline. For instance,

1. They are an ancient organization.
Birren’s connections to the Elder Houses went back for centuries.

2. They did not really give much importance Bloodlines at the time of the new republic.
Virtually no one took the concept of hereditary nobility seriously any longer, not even the other members of the Elder Houses.
None of the Elder Houses adjudicates succession through strict bloodline inheritance.


3. The members of the Elder Houses met for galas. (could the Dubrovnik planet yacht scene be the location of a gala?)
She had claimed that her sensibilities as a member of the Elder Houses kept her from speaking out, but who took the Elder Houses seriously any longer? Most of the current members saw it as nothing more than a genealogical resource and an excuse for the occasional gala.

4. Leia has strong influence among the senior Elder House members.
I’ve been getting in touch with some old friends. Including, as it happens, the most senior members of the Elder Houses.

5.A member could be stripped off their titles and membership via a resolution passed by other members.
It was enough to contact the ruling members of the Elder Houses and convince them to finally pass a resolution,
the first one they’ve bothered to pass in years. To be specific, they’ve stripped you of your royal titles, forever. The title of supreme governor of Birren will go to the next person in the line of succession, and you are no longer a member of the Elder Houses.


Now here is something I find curious......in my first reading, I thought maybe Leia merely said Ben wasn't interested in inheriting titles...but I noticed something on a later reading of the story.... Leia seems disturbed by the topic of Ben inheriting a title....is she expressing Ben's actual wish or her wish for Ben? Did he go willingly to train as a jedi or did his family send him against his wishes?

You must succeed Lord Mellowyn, just as your son must someday succeed you. For a moment Princess Leia looked weary, as if she had aged between one sentence and the next. I can’t see Ben taking much interest in the governorship, either. Really, it would be better for everyone concerned if I were to remove myself from the succession.

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by SanghaRen on Wed 3 Aug - 7:42

@panki

Oh. So that would be in line with the feeling of entitlement Pablo always hints at. Ben did maybe enjoy the whole title thingy a tad too much to Leia's taste and with the gift of the Force and a Vader temperament... Let's send him to Luke! That would change a bit the story I had in mind, although I do see him as the boy playing arrogant to compensate, so reaching for titles could fit too. "I am lonely, I feel like an outcast but hey I have a title! You don't! I win!" But not like Lady Carise, who was written in a non redeemable way.

I am not too much into the Elders story to be honest. Aristocracy and royalty stories have never been my cup of tea. Did I mention I am French? It's in our nature to dislike it Smile But if they add some strange cult for the Dark Side, I might be interested.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by panki on Wed 3 Aug - 22:40

@SanghaRen wrote:@panki

Oh. So that would be in line with the feeling of entitlement Pablo always hints at. Ben did maybe enjoy the whole title thingy a tad too much to Leia's taste and with the gift of the Force and a Vader temperament... Let's send him to Luke! That would change a bit the story I had in mind, although I do see him as the boy playing arrogant to compensate, so reaching for titles could fit too. "I am lonely, I feel like an outcast but hey I have a title! You don't! I win!" But not like Lady Carise, who was written in a non redeemable way.

I am not too much into the Elders story to be honest. Aristocracy and royalty stories have never been my cup of tea. Did I mention I am French? It's in our nature to dislike it Smile But if they add some strange cult for the Dark Side, I might be interested.
@SanghaRen

I'm more interested in the Elder Houses from a secret society perspective....though I'm okay with them being either dark side or light side believers....they can have ties to the acolytes of the beyond...or maybe they are the society that secretly fights them....either would work for me. Smile

But there is another aspect as to why I am curious about the Elder Houses....it looks like the members have moved away from playing a political role in the galaxy to a more ceremonial one- and meeting for the occasional party....now that the FO has blown up Hosnian Prime with a good chunk of the galaxy's political leaders on it, would the Elder House members be forced to get more involved politically or come up with a solution to fill the leadership lacuna so as to keep the FO at bay?

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by SanghaRen on Wed 3 Aug - 23:02

@panki

You are really putting a lot of thoughts into this. I had not even realized what the destruction of Hosnian Prime would mean in terms of politics. So you would have the Elder House members and the Resistance left - and a few others but let's assume they're outnumbered and scared to death. Imagine the Elder House members having to fight alongside the Resistance. That could be funny. We could have, say, KMT's character as the bridge between the two as the daughter of Elder House members but rebelling against their lethargy and working with the Resistance.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by Mrs Ben Solo on Fri 5 Aug - 4:11

@panki wrote:
@SanghaRen wrote:@panki

Oh. So that would be in line with the feeling of entitlement Pablo always hints at. Ben did maybe enjoy the whole title thingy a tad too much to Leia's taste and with the gift of the Force and a Vader temperament... Let's send him to Luke! That would change a bit the story I had in mind, although I do see him as the boy playing arrogant to compensate, so reaching for titles could fit too. "I am lonely, I feel like an outcast but hey I have a title! You don't! I win!" But not like Lady Carise, who was written in a non redeemable way.

I am not too much into the Elders story to be honest. Aristocracy and royalty stories have never been my cup of tea. Did I mention I am French? It's in our nature to dislike it Smile But if they add some strange cult for the Dark Side, I might be interested.
@SanghaRen

I'm more interested in the Elder Houses from a secret society perspective....though I'm okay with them being either dark side or light side believers....they can have ties to the acolytes of the beyond...or maybe they are the society that secretly fights them....either would work for me. Smile

But there is another aspect as to why I am curious about the Elder Houses....it looks like the members have moved away from playing a political role in the galaxy to a more ceremonial one- and meeting for the occasional party....now that the FO has blown up Hosnian Prime with a good chunk of the galaxy's political leaders on it, would the Elder House members be forced to get more involved politically or come up with a solution to fill the leadership lacuna so as to keep the FO at bay?
@panki

Thanks @panki for giving me something to chew on r.e the Elder Houses. It is an interesting point because in Bloodline it does sound like the Elder Houses are all about ceremony, tradition and good times. Being British, it makes me think of the position of our own Royal Family. From being all powerful, they were gradually stripped of that power and it was transferred over to parliament. Our Queen (and King when we next have one) is our head of state, but she wields no true power. Her position is strictly advisory, although Prime Ministers have to go to her before forming a government, it is all ceremonial. This explains it in better detail for those who might be interested http://www.monarchist.org.uk/constitutional-monarchy.html

In the context of Star Wars, it makes you wonder what sort of people inhabit these Elder Houses. The little we can glean from Bloodline indicates that there are probably more like Lady Carise than (princess) General Leia. It could be Game of Thrones in space with the ambitious houses fighting for dominance over the weaker ones. Rich planets like Arkanis, were Hux and Lady Carise Sindian are from would probably have the initial advantage (Like the Lannisters in GoT) because their wealth could pay for weapons and such. Apologies for those who don't like or know Game of Thrones, I'm only comparing it in terms of houses battling over who gets to rule, not the other shenanigans that go on in Westeros!
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Mon 8 Aug - 4:37

I posted this in the Tweets thread but thought that it was worth posting here too:


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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by snufkin on Mon 8 Aug - 5:46

Finally got it from my town library and having to sit around with ice packs on my neck and one of my legs (car accident) is forcing me to start reading it. Not very far in, but I can kind of see how the whole "things start immediately after the ending of VII" might be handled. Reading this book isn't mandatory for going into the next movie. But it's a way of presenting part of the back story that they don't have precious screentime to burn. But I can see it starting with things like a crash/confrontation happening and then tracking backwards, especially to show whatever happened to push him to that state. Especially because they're making the point at least of showing what was going on with Leia and Han, including how he was both unplanned but also how much she loves him (even if it's pretty easy to conclude that she was also pretty clueless about him).
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 8 Aug - 6:48

What sticks in my mind is the line in the junior novel when Han's last thought are he forgave him, and hoped one day his son could forgive him.

This makes me wonder just exactly what happened in Ben's childhood that would make his father feel guilty?
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by snufkin on Sat 20 Aug - 19:23

My 3 week grace period is up with my library, so I've been jamming through the book and this thread (So much pre-release angst!). Won't repeat what's already been discussed, but a couple of things:

1. I like Castorfo and hope that the speculation he may turn up in a future episode alive and well is true. Dude is straight up a tragic character.

2. They're doing a very good job between TFA and the two novels released since then to establish that Ben's mommy loves him very much. Which are both hints that there is light in him and that his parents had good intentions but dropped the ball in thinking that he (speculation here) needed to be protected against his Force Powers when he really needed to be protected against Snoke. It's been stated in the documentary around TFA that he felt abandoned and left to fend for himself, hence the anger.

3. Also while Ben's mommy obviously loves him very much, the way she thinks about him in passing is kind of the way you'd think about a pet. Like she thinks affectionately about him, but he's not around at all. Either in person or through contact. Which jibes with Leia's line about how her greatest mistake was in sending him away to be with Luke. As several of you have said on here, it's jarring how much mentoring younger people seem to be part of Han and Leia's life (her posse are all young people) to the point that you're like "why the Hell are you doing this for strangers but don't have your kid around?" Again, that would be plausible for feeding into his feelings of abandonment and jealousy/rejection.

4. I'll posted this elsewhere, but Bloodline is the story of a person whose identity is a person allied with the "good guys" (LS, Rebels/Resistance) having to be in denial and struggle with the "truth that is their family" being from the Empire/DS. Even if this is a book meant for hardcore fans and to provide any additional context/background which can't be covered in the next two movies, there are still repercussions for Leia, Ben et all that her anger/conflicted feelings/denial about the truth of who her biological father was is a trigger for what led to Ben's fall/becoming Kylo Ren. Max von Sydow's exposition character is there to state this up front. So that's why personally (and again, this is my personal take after reading Bloodline) that it'd be really difficult to have a "Rey finds out her background is with the FO/DS" storyline which differentiates it from what Luke went through in OT and which Bloodline covers for Leia. It's been done before for those two characters and given the "it's a re-hash" accusations already for TFA, they would have to be really really careful in going that route for Rey's backstory.

Anyways, fun read while on recovery rest after my car accident and I hope that they hire Claudia Grey to write the next tie-in novels for VIII and IX. I'm definitely curious to hear the full extent of what she and Rian Johnson worked out for the characters and storylines.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by snufkin on Sat 20 Aug - 21:03

Oh forgot to add, I like the acknowledgment of the PT in giving their due to both Padme and Bail Organa. The NR really does crap on both their sacrifices and Leia's lifetime of service in such a self-serving way that it may have also contributed to Ben's defection


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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by panki on Sat 20 Aug - 22:13

This isn't related to Bloodline itself but is there any actual confirmation that Ben Solo became Kylo six years prior to the events of TFA? I was re-reading "Before the Awakening" and there are a lot of big big clues regarding Rey, Finn and Poe about their respective pasts, and some are really important. Poe's story is the one with potentially the biggest hints about Ben.

1.  On the first occasion that Leia meets Poe in the story, I got the impression she was thinking of Ben (Poe is only 2 years older than Ben)..... she wants to call him by his first name and tries to make him comfortable in her presence.

“You should see your expression,” General Organa said. She smiled, and that, too, touched her eyes, gave them a warmth that made Poe feel like he was nine again. “I’m not that frightening, surely.”

2. But the reminder of her son makes her sad as well.

General Leia Organa left her gaze on him for a second more, her expression unchanged, brown eyes seeming sad and weary and strong all at once.

3. Now for the big clue- She asks Poe to undertake a dangerous mission but at the same time she is worried about sending him for it and gives him the option to refuse....and there is more....  

I’m aware of exactly how difficult this mission will be. Which is why I’m giving you the option of saying no, Commander. I have to stress this, Poe.” Leia reached out, took his hand, and squeezed it. She was meeting his eyes, as grave as he had ever seen her. “This is not an order. It could go very, very wrong, and if it does, the Resistance would have to deny any involvement. You and anyone you took with you to do this would be on your own.
She released his hand and sat back. That air of sadness had descended on her once more. His father had carried a similar melancholy after his mother had passed; Poe would see it descend on him like a shadow, settle over his shoulders like a blanket made of warmth and memory and longing and loss. Leia wore something made of the same material, and not for the first time Poe wondered how she had come by it and, perhaps more importantly, who had given it to her.


4. There might be rumors that Ben is dead.

“Where did it go?” he asked, and the question seemed so much more important than he meant it to be, but as he asked he was thinking of his father, and his mother, of everything they had sacrificed and fought for. Thinking of Leia Organa, one of the last survivors of Alderaan standing before him—of everything she had lost, both what Poe knew and what was rumored.


I think Ben got his mother's message after Bloodline and joined the resistance to help her....so that 'resistance logo' on his cloak in the movie poster might be an actual hidden hint. And I think one of the missions went wrong, Ben (and at least one other person) was captured and the resistance washed their hands off the matter, leaving him all alone. God knows what torture and brainwashing the FO and Snoke put him through!!! Evil or Very Mad It also explains his feeling of anger and resentment towards his family.

But this raises the question- where does Luke's charter school fit into all this? Could the knights of Ren be Luke's former students who followed Ben and joined the resistance (possibly against Luke's wishes), got captured by the FO and turned to the dark side? This is beginning to sound a little like Revan's story.  Confus It also explains why Luke went away and doesn't seem to want to be found.

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by CienaRee on Sat 20 Aug - 22:24

@panki wrote:This isn't related to Bloodline itself but is there any actual confirmation that Ben Solo became Kylo six years prior to the events of TFA? I was re-reading "Before the Awakening" and there are a lot of big big clues regarding Rey, Finn and Poe about their respective pasts, and some are really important. Poe's story is the one with potentially the biggest hints about Ben.

1.  On the first occasion that Leia meets Poe in the story, I got the impression she was thinking of Ben (Poe is only 2 years older than Ben)..... she wants to call him by his first name and tries to make him comfortable in her presence.

“You should see your expression,” General Organa said. She smiled, and that, too, touched her eyes, gave them a warmth that made Poe feel like he was nine again. “I’m not that frightening, surely.”

2. But the reminder of her son makes her sad as well.

General Leia Organa left her gaze on him for a second more, her expression unchanged, brown eyes seeming sad and weary and strong all at once.

3. Now for the big clue- She asks Poe to undertake a dangerous mission but at the same time she is worried about sending him for it and gives him the option to refuse....and there is more....  

I’m aware of exactly how difficult this mission will be. Which is why I’m giving you the option of saying no, Commander. I have to stress this, Poe.” Leia reached out, took his hand, and squeezed it. She was meeting his eyes, as grave as he had ever seen her. “This is not an order. It could go very, very wrong, and if it does, the Resistance would have to deny any involvement. You and anyone you took with you to do this would be on your own.
She released his hand and sat back. That air of sadness had descended on her once more. His father had carried a similar melancholy after his mother had passed; Poe would see it descend on him like a shadow, settle over his shoulders like a blanket made of warmth and memory and longing and loss. Leia wore something made of the same material, and not for the first time Poe wondered how she had come by it and, perhaps more importantly, who had given it to her.


4. There might be rumors that Ben is dead.

“Where did it go?” he asked, and the question seemed so much more important than he meant it to be, but as he asked he was thinking of his father, and his mother, of everything they had sacrificed and fought for. Thinking of Leia Organa, one of the last survivors of Alderaan standing before him—of everything she had lost, both what Poe knew and what was rumored.


I think Ben got his mother's message after Bloodline and joined the resistance to help her....so that 'resistance logo' on his cloak in the movie poster might be an actual hidden hint. And I think one of the missions went wrong, Ben (and at least one other person) was captured and the resistance washed their hands off the matter, leaving him all alone. God knows what torture and brainwashing the FO and Snoke put him through!!! Evil or Very Mad It also explains his feeling of anger and resentment towards his family.

But this raises the question- where does Luke's charter school fit into all this? Could the knights of Ren be Luke's former students who followed Ben and joined the resistance (possibly against Luke's wishes), got captured by the FO and turned to the dark side? This is beginning to sound a little like Revan's story.  Confus It also explains why Luke went away and doesn't seem to want to be found.
@panki
I think Pablo mentioned that Kylo and Hux have been working together for 5 years but it hasn't been confirmed that Kylo feel to the DS after he learned the truth about Vader and judging from Pablo's tweets he doesn't want us to jump to that conclusion so fast either.
It would be great if this ended up happening and it would deffinatly make things much geryer since everyone thinks the Resistance  is a copy of the Rebellion so it woud be quite the twist for the audience to find out they're not quite as innocent or just as they say they are.

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by panki on Sat 20 Aug - 22:50

@CienaRee wrote:
@panki wrote:This isn't related to Bloodline itself but is there any actual confirmation that Ben Solo became Kylo six years prior to the events of TFA? I was re-reading "Before the Awakening" and there are a lot of big big clues regarding Rey, Finn and Poe about their respective pasts, and some are really important. Poe's story is the one with potentially the biggest hints about Ben.

1.  On the first occasion that Leia meets Poe in the story, I got the impression she was thinking of Ben (Poe is only 2 years older than Ben)..... she wants to call him by his first name and tries to make him comfortable in her presence.

“You should see your expression,” General Organa said. She smiled, and that, too, touched her eyes, gave them a warmth that made Poe feel like he was nine again. “I’m not that frightening, surely.”

2. But the reminder of her son makes her sad as well.

General Leia Organa left her gaze on him for a second more, her expression unchanged, brown eyes seeming sad and weary and strong all at once.

3. Now for the big clue- She asks Poe to undertake a dangerous mission but at the same time she is worried about sending him for it and gives him the option to refuse....and there is more....  

I’m aware of exactly how difficult this mission will be. Which is why I’m giving you the option of saying no, Commander. I have to stress this, Poe.” Leia reached out, took his hand, and squeezed it. She was meeting his eyes, as grave as he had ever seen her. “This is not an order. It could go very, very wrong, and if it does, the Resistance would have to deny any involvement. You and anyone you took with you to do this would be on your own.
She released his hand and sat back. That air of sadness had descended on her once more. His father had carried a similar melancholy after his mother had passed; Poe would see it descend on him like a shadow, settle over his shoulders like a blanket made of warmth and memory and longing and loss. Leia wore something made of the same material, and not for the first time Poe wondered how she had come by it and, perhaps more importantly, who had given it to her.


4. There might be rumors that Ben is dead.

“Where did it go?” he asked, and the question seemed so much more important than he meant it to be, but as he asked he was thinking of his father, and his mother, of everything they had sacrificed and fought for. Thinking of Leia Organa, one of the last survivors of Alderaan standing before him—of everything she had lost, both what Poe knew and what was rumored.


I think Ben got his mother's message after Bloodline and joined the resistance to help her....so that 'resistance logo' on his cloak in the movie poster might be an actual hidden hint. And I think one of the missions went wrong, Ben (and at least one other person) was captured and the resistance washed their hands off the matter, leaving him all alone. God knows what torture and brainwashing the FO and Snoke put him through!!! Evil or Very Mad It also explains his feeling of anger and resentment towards his family.

But this raises the question- where does Luke's charter school fit into all this? Could the knights of Ren be Luke's former students who followed Ben and joined the resistance (possibly against Luke's wishes), got captured by the FO and turned to the dark side? This is beginning to sound a little like Revan's story.  Confus It also explains why Luke went away and doesn't seem to want to be found.
@panki
I think Pablo mentioned that Kylo and Hux have been working together for 5 years but it hasn't been confirmed that Kylo feel to the DS after he learned the truth about Vader and judging from Pablo's tweets he doesn't want us to jump to that conclusion so fast either.
It would be great if this ended up happening and it would deffinatly make things much geryer since everyone thinks the Resistance  is a copy of the Rebellion so it woud be quite the twist for the audience to find out they're not quite as innocent or just as they say they are.
@CienaRee

I saw the tweet....Bloodline happened 6 years before...and Kylo could have turned anytime between 0-5 years based on the tweet....the answer has been left vague...interesting.... Confus



This takes me back to a recent Star Wars comic where Leia was ready to sacrifice Luke, Han, herself and a large number of rebels just to kill Vader....and another instance where she wanted to abandon Luke but Han questioned her priorities and rushed to rescue Luke.....things are definitely not black and white in this trilogy.

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 20 Aug - 23:56

@panki, @CienaRee

I agree. I think there is a missing year with Kylo. Something happened between Year 6 and Year 5. Also remember at the end of Bloodline that
Spoiler:
Leia's paramilitary group had *no* New Republic backing at all, not even secret. It was completely a rogue paramilitary group. If Ben went on some mission during that time and disappeared into the darkness, Leia may have let him go to protect the identities of all the other early Resistance members. I mean it's possible that Leia and her group actually could have been seen as treasonous and certainly illegal by the New Republic. If she was willing to sacrifice Luke for the higher cause, then maybe the same for her son? What a Face ... Especially if he had dark tendencies to begin with and it seemed like he was capable of the reports of murder, etc., that they received, when in fact it might have taken a lot of torture to get him there. Crying or Very sad
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by Mrs Ben Solo on Sun 21 Aug - 0:09

@SoloSideCousin wrote:@panki, @CienaRee

I agree. I think there is a missing year with Kylo. Something happened between Year 6 and Year 5. Also remember at the end of Bloodline that
Spoiler:
Leia's paramilitary group had *no* New Republic backing at all, not even secret. It was completely a rogue paramilitary group. If Ben went on some mission during that time and disappeared into the darkness, Leia may have let him go to protect the identities of all the other early Resistance members. I mean it's possible that Leia and her group actually could have been seen as treasonous and certainly illegal by the New Republic. If she was willing to sacrifice Luke for the higher cause, then maybe the same for her son? What a Face ... Especially if he had dark tendencies to begin with and it seemed like he was capable of the reports of murder, etc., that they received, when in fact it might have taken a lot of torture to get him there. Crying or Very sad
@SoloSideCousin

All this is very interesting, especially alongside the question of whether Kylo/Ben could have sent his mother the data card warning about Starkiller targeting the Illenium System. I asked Pablo about it a few months ago and he said he couldn't get into it with so much story left to tell. I know it's not confirmation but it leaves the possibility open. PH could have shot it down in flames and said why would Evil!Kylo do such a thing as warn his mother? I guess we will see...
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by Darth Rowan on Sun 21 Aug - 0:39

@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
All this is very interesting, especially alongside the question of whether Kylo/Ben could have sent his mother the data card warning about Starkiller targeting the Illenium System. I asked Pablo about it a few months ago and he said he couldn't get into it with so much story left to tell. I know it's not confirmation but it leaves the possibility open. PH could have shot it down in flames and said why would Evil!Kylo do such a thing as warn his mother? I guess we will see...
@Mrs Ben Solo

This is exactly what I think happened, and I think it's one of the things that will help with Kylo Ren's PR problem once they start to make clear(er?) that he will be redeemed. Even the biggest Kylo haters would think he can't be completely bad if at the height of his wickedness and betrayal he still tried to save his mom.

But yeah, the idea that Leia's methodical pragmatism, her thinking always of the greater good before the good of her loved ones etc might have been a mechanism facilitating Ben's downfall is interesting and again would definitely go a long way towards making him a sympathetic figure, though I'm not sure I like this set up.

I would understand Leia's being troubled by the state of the galaxy, and that being all consuming. This might preoccupy her to the point where she doesn't pay as much attention to what is going on with Ben as she should. But actually abandoning him is a bit much for me as a fan of Leia. >_<

Hopefully they will negotiate the explanation of Ben's downfall without knocking down our heroes too much. In TFA Han says to Leia "There is nothing more we could have done" in reference to their efforts to get their son back. I'm hoping that is true and that their parenting wasn't something straight out of the Jedi Council's guide to child rearing. :/

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by IoJovi on Sun 21 Aug - 0:52

@Darth Rowan wrote:
@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
All this is very interesting, especially alongside the question of whether Kylo/Ben could have sent his mother the data card warning about Starkiller targeting the Illenium System. I asked Pablo about it a few months ago and he said he couldn't get into it with so much story left to tell. I know it's not confirmation but it leaves the possibility open. PH could have shot it down in flames and said why would Evil!Kylo do such a thing as warn his mother? I guess we will see...
@Mrs Ben Solo

This is exactly what I think happened, and I think it's one of the things that will help with Kylo Ren's PR problem once they start to make clear(er?) that he will be redeemed. Even the biggest Kylo haters would think he can't be completely bad if at the height of his wickedness and betrayal he still tried to save his mom.

But yeah, the idea that Leia's methodical pragmatism, her thinking always of the greater good before the good of her loved ones etc might have been a mechanism facilitating Ben's downfall is interesting and again would definitely go a long way towards making him a sympathetic figure, though I'm not sure I like this set up.

I would understand Leia's being troubled by the state of the galaxy, and that being all consuming. This might preoccupy her to the point where she doesn't pay as much attention to what is going on with Ben as she should. But actually abandoning him is a bit much for me as a fan of Leia. >_<

Hopefully they will negotiate the explanation of Ben's downfall without knocking down our heroes too much. In TFA Han says to Leia "There is nothing more we could have done" in reference to their efforts to get their son back. I'm hoping that is true and that their parenting wasn't something straight out of the Jedi Council's guide to child rearing. :/
@Darth Rowan

I hear what you're saying, but I really do think this is the case with both Han and Leia, especially after reading Life Debt.  I do do think both were preoccupied with what seemed to be greater things.    Han too had the same thing going on in LD where he was putting the survival of Kashyykk and finding Chewie ahead of his pregnant wife at home.  There was more than one instance where I felt myself getting angry at him.

Finding a missing Chewie I can somewhat understand, but even after he was found, there were more reasons that kept popping up of why he couldn't go back just yet.  I think this was a pattern throughout Ben's childhood from both his parents - no wonder he was disappointed.

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by Mrs Ben Solo on Sun 21 Aug - 0:55

@Darth Rowan wrote:
@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
All this is very interesting, especially alongside the question of whether Kylo/Ben could have sent his mother the data card warning about Starkiller targeting the Illenium System. I asked Pablo about it a few months ago and he said he couldn't get into it with so much story left to tell. I know it's not confirmation but it leaves the possibility open. PH could have shot it down in flames and said why would Evil!Kylo do such a thing as warn his mother? I guess we will see...
@Mrs Ben Solo

This is exactly what I think happened, and I think it's one of the things that will help with Kylo Ren's PR problem once they start to make clear(er?) that he will be redeemed. Even the biggest Kylo haters would think he can't be completely bad if at the height of his wickedness and betrayal he still tried to save his mom.

But yeah, the idea that Leia's methodical pragmatism, her thinking always of the greater good before the good of her loved ones etc might have been a mechanism facilitating Ben's downfall is interesting and again would definitely go a long way towards making him a sympathetic figure, though I'm not sure I like this set up.

I would understand Leia's being troubled by the state of the galaxy, and that being all consuming. This might preoccupy her to the point where she doesn't pay as much attention to what is going on with Ben as she should. But actually abandoning him is a bit much for me as a fan of Leia. >_<

Hopefully they will negotiate the explanation of Ben's downfall without knocking down our heroes too much. In TFA Han says to Leia "There is nothing more we could have done" in reference to their efforts to get their son back. I'm hoping that is true and that their parenting wasn't something straight out of the Jedi Council's guide to child rearing. :/
@Darth Rowan

I'm a big fan of Leia's too and much as I love Kylo, I wouldn't want her to be portrayed negatively in order to facilitate his redemption.

There is something that could mitigate it, though, if Ben was initially left unwillingly in Snoke's hands. I remember someone asking Pablo how Han knew it was Ben under Kylo's mask and robes (as PH also said in another tweet that Kylo's real identity wasn't widely known among the resistance, although Lor San Tekka also knew Kylo was Ben Solo) Pablo said that story was yet to be told. It could imply that Han (and maybe others) went to try and retrieve Ben from Snoke and the First Order at an earlier point, but were obviously unsuccessful. Perhaps Ben denied his family then, as Lor San Tekka accused him of trying to do. Whichever way, it's obvious that things are not as cut and dried as some people believe with the supposed massacre of Luke's other apprentices (who we know nothing about) and Luke's activities with his acolytes in the years after the Empire fell. We don't know what sent Luke off in search of the first Jedi temple, a crisis of faith, perhaps? Or to get access to an ancient power source? The possibilities go on and on.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by panki on Sun 21 Aug - 1:25

@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
@Darth Rowan wrote:
@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
All this is very interesting, especially alongside the question of whether Kylo/Ben could have sent his mother the data card warning about Starkiller targeting the Illenium System. I asked Pablo about it a few months ago and he said he couldn't get into it with so much story left to tell. I know it's not confirmation but it leaves the possibility open. PH could have shot it down in flames and said why would Evil!Kylo do such a thing as warn his mother? I guess we will see...
@Mrs Ben Solo

This is exactly what I think happened, and I think it's one of the things that will help with Kylo Ren's PR problem once they start to make clear(er?) that he will be redeemed. Even the biggest Kylo haters would think he can't be completely bad if at the height of his wickedness and betrayal he still tried to save his mom.

But yeah, the idea that Leia's methodical pragmatism, her thinking always of the greater good before the good of her loved ones etc might have been a mechanism facilitating Ben's downfall is interesting and again would definitely go a long way towards making him a sympathetic figure, though I'm not sure I like this set up.

I would understand Leia's being troubled by the state of the galaxy, and that being all consuming. This might preoccupy her to the point where she doesn't pay as much attention to what is going on with Ben as she should. But actually abandoning him is a bit much for me as a fan of Leia. >_<

Hopefully they will negotiate the explanation of Ben's downfall without knocking down our heroes too much. In TFA Han says to Leia "There is nothing more we could have done" in reference to their efforts to get their son back. I'm hoping that is true and that their parenting wasn't something straight out of the Jedi Council's guide to child rearing. :/
@Darth Rowan

I'm a big fan of Leia's too and much as I love Kylo, I wouldn't want her to be portrayed negatively in order to facilitate his redemption.

There is something that could mitigate it, though, if Ben was initially left unwillingly in Snoke's hands. I remember someone asking Pablo how Han knew it was Ben under Kylo's mask and robes (as PH also said in another tweet that Kylo's real identity wasn't widely known among the resistance, although Lor San Tekka also knew Kylo was Ben Solo) Pablo said that story was yet to be told. It could imply that Han (and maybe others) went to try and retrieve Ben from Snoke and the First Order at an earlier point, but were obviously unsuccessful. Perhaps Ben denied his family then, as Lor San Tekka accused him of trying to do. Whichever way, it's obvious that things are not as cut and dried as some people believe with the supposed massacre of Luke's other apprentices (who we know nothing about) and Luke's activities with his acolytes in the years after the Empire fell. We don't know what sent Luke off in search of the first Jedi temple, a crisis of faith, perhaps? Or to get access to an ancient power source? The possibilities go on and on.
@Mrs Ben Solo

While I agree Han and/or others might have tried to save Ben (I don't think Leia tried to rescue him since the Before the Awakening confirms that the resistance disassociates from people on failed missions and they are left on their own), I don't think Ben denied Han because:
- The walkway was when Han saw Ben for the first time as a grown man;
- Kylo says that he has been waiting for this moment.

What is more possible is that a rescue mission failed because they assumed Ben was dead until Han saw him walking in Takodana.

I see Leia's situation as similar to the Admiral in the Unwind novel series.....the Admiral was one of the people who decided that parents could send their unwanted teenage children to be unwound (killed and their organs taken for use)....and when his own son was unruly, he had to send his son to be unwound as an example to others. It destroyed his marriage and he lived a life of regret and depression as a result.

Similarly, in Ben's case, maybe Leia had to protect the resistance at the expense of rescuing her son when he was captured...it further deepened the rift in her marriage and she obviously thinks about it....as we can see both when she is scared to send Poe on a dangerous mission and when she finally hugs and sends Rey to Luke.

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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by snufkin on Sun 21 Aug - 5:39

I am really curious about this possibility, that something happened where his defection/fall to the DS wasn't 100% voluntary. All Leia says in the movie is that she lost him when she sent him away to Luke. And Han's comment to Rey that one boy (who we eventually learn is his son) "destroyed it all." It's kept very vague and most peoples' interpretation is that he did something like Order 66 or a mass killing. It can't be that straight forward, especially if the "Rey sees something in his head" that makes her hopefully he'll accept Han's offer of taking him back home away from the FO. There are enough details of it being both vague about what actually happened and the obvious guilt from his parents and uncle which led to his fall/defection. Leia would have to do with the politics/virtues of the society he was raised in and Luke would have to be with the spirituality and family history he was raised in.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 21 Aug - 6:53

The children's storybook - worth having for the lovely digital art - actually mentions that Rey not only saw anger and fear in Kylo, but also hurt. Which is interesting, as it seems that even with the kids they are trying to make him sympathetic.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 21 Aug - 7:01

@CienaRee wrote:
@panki wrote:This isn't related to Bloodline itself but is there any actual confirmation that Ben Solo became Kylo six years prior to the events of TFA? I was re-reading "Before the Awakening" and there are a lot of big big clues regarding Rey, Finn and Poe about their respective pasts, and some are really important. Poe's story is the one with potentially the biggest hints about Ben.

1.  On the first occasion that Leia meets Poe in the story, I got the impression she was thinking of Ben (Poe is only 2 years older than Ben)..... she wants to call him by his first name and tries to make him comfortable in her presence.

“You should see your expression,” General Organa said. She smiled, and that, too, touched her eyes, gave them a warmth that made Poe feel like he was nine again. “I’m not that frightening, surely.”

2. But the reminder of her son makes her sad as well.

General Leia Organa left her gaze on him for a second more, her expression unchanged, brown eyes seeming sad and weary and strong all at once.

3. Now for the big clue- She asks Poe to undertake a dangerous mission but at the same time she is worried about sending him for it and gives him the option to refuse....and there is more....  

I’m aware of exactly how difficult this mission will be. Which is why I’m giving you the option of saying no, Commander. I have to stress this, Poe.” Leia reached out, took his hand, and squeezed it. She was meeting his eyes, as grave as he had ever seen her. “This is not an order. It could go very, very wrong, and if it does, the Resistance would have to deny any involvement. You and anyone you took with you to do this would be on your own.
She released his hand and sat back. That air of sadness had descended on her once more. His father had carried a similar melancholy after his mother had passed; Poe would see it descend on him like a shadow, settle over his shoulders like a blanket made of warmth and memory and longing and loss. Leia wore something made of the same material, and not for the first time Poe wondered how she had come by it and, perhaps more importantly, who had given it to her.


4. There might be rumors that Ben is dead.

“Where did it go?” he asked, and the question seemed so much more important than he meant it to be, but as he asked he was thinking of his father, and his mother, of everything they had sacrificed and fought for. Thinking of Leia Organa, one of the last survivors of Alderaan standing before him—of everything she had lost, both what Poe knew and what was rumored.


I think Ben got his mother's message after Bloodline and joined the resistance to help her....so that 'resistance logo' on his cloak in the movie poster might be an actual hidden hint. And I think one of the missions went wrong, Ben (and at least one other person) was captured and the resistance washed their hands off the matter, leaving him all alone. God knows what torture and brainwashing the FO and Snoke put him through!!! Evil or Very Mad It also explains his feeling of anger and resentment towards his family.

But this raises the question- where does Luke's charter school fit into all this? Could the knights of Ren be Luke's former students who followed Ben and joined the resistance (possibly against Luke's wishes), got captured by the FO and turned to the dark side? This is beginning to sound a little like Revan's story.  Confus It also explains why Luke went away and doesn't seem to want to be found.
@panki
I think Pablo mentioned that Kylo and Hux have been working together for 5 years but it hasn't been confirmed that Kylo feel to the DS after he learned the truth about Vader and judging from Pablo's tweets he doesn't want us to jump to that conclusion so fast either.
It would be great if this ended up happening and it would deffinatly make things much geryer since everyone thinks the Resistance  is a copy of the Rebellion so it woud be quite the twist for the audience to find out they're not quite as innocent or just as they say they are.
@CienaRee

I am really, really hoping they go in this direction - because although Snoke and Hux are 'big bads', we have Finn - a stormtrooper who's a good man, and a tragic villain in Kylo. We have the history of Hux, who might once have been a vulnerable child exploited by Snoke (although not in the same league as Ben Solo) and the fact that the stormtroopers were stolen children. In short, shades of grey in the First Order. I'm pretty convinced they are going to show a few less than likeable characters among the 'good guys', this will be the big difference between the ST and the OT which i/ think will be the ST's strong point.
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by CienaRee on Sun 21 Aug - 10:08

@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
@Darth Rowan wrote:
@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
All this is very interesting, especially alongside the question of whether Kylo/Ben could have sent his mother the data card warning about Starkiller targeting the Illenium System. I asked Pablo about it a few months ago and he said he couldn't get into it with so much story left to tell. I know it's not confirmation but it leaves the possibility open. PH could have shot it down in flames and said why would Evil!Kylo do such a thing as warn his mother? I guess we will see...
@Mrs Ben Solo

This is exactly what I think happened, and I think it's one of the things that will help with Kylo Ren's PR problem once they start to make clear(er?) that he will be redeemed. Even the biggest Kylo haters would think he can't be completely bad if at the height of his wickedness and betrayal he still tried to save his mom.

But yeah, the idea that Leia's methodical pragmatism, her thinking always of the greater good before the good of her loved ones etc might have been a mechanism facilitating Ben's downfall is interesting and again would definitely go a long way towards making him a sympathetic figure, though I'm not sure I like this set up.

I would understand Leia's being troubled by the state of the galaxy, and that being all consuming. This might preoccupy her to the point where she doesn't pay as much attention to what is going on with Ben as she should. But actually abandoning him is a bit much for me as a fan of Leia. >_<

Hopefully they will negotiate the explanation of Ben's downfall without knocking down our heroes too much. In TFA Han says to Leia "There is nothing more we could have done" in reference to their efforts to get their son back. I'm hoping that is true and that their parenting wasn't something straight out of the Jedi Council's guide to child rearing. :/
@Darth Rowan

I'm a big fan of Leia's too and much as I love Kylo, I wouldn't want her to be portrayed negatively in order to facilitate his redemption.

There is something that could mitigate it, though, if Ben was initially left unwillingly in Snoke's hands. I remember someone asking Pablo how Han knew it was Ben under Kylo's mask and robes (as PH also said in another tweet that Kylo's real identity wasn't widely known among the resistance, although Lor San Tekka also knew Kylo was Ben Solo) Pablo said that story was yet to be told. It could imply that Han (and maybe others) went to try and retrieve Ben from Snoke and the First Order at an earlier point, but were obviously unsuccessful. Perhaps Ben denied his family then, as Lor San Tekka accused him of trying to do. Whichever way, it's obvious that things are not as cut and dried as some people believe with the supposed massacre of Luke's other apprentices (who we know nothing about) and Luke's activities with his acolytes in the years after the Empire fell. We don't know what sent Luke off in search of the first Jedi temple, a crisis of faith, perhaps? Or to get access to an ancient power source? The possibilities go on and on.
@Mrs Ben Solo

While I agree that leia abandoning her son would be awful I don't think it's really OOC for her @panki mentioned it already but there was a comic where Leia was ready to scarfise Han,Luke and Chewie's lives to get to Vader.There's also that scene in TFA where Finn's asking Leia to help him with Rey and while she was sorry for her being kidnapped she was like ''Yes,I'll help you but you need to tell me all the information you know'.'I'm sure Leia loves her so very much but there has to be a reason why Kylo feel so much anger and has abandonemnt issues.Honestly I thought it was a horribale thing to say that because Kylo had ''too much Vader''in him there was nothing Han or Leia could have done.And if the TFA novelization reminds canon as far as Snoke trageting Ben when he was a child and Liea knwong and telling Han ntohignt about it this is another level of disfunctional which could have also helped Snoke corrupt Ben more easily.


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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 21 Aug - 10:16

@CienaRee wrote:
@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
@Darth Rowan wrote:
@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
All this is very interesting, especially alongside the question of whether Kylo/Ben could have sent his mother the data card warning about Starkiller targeting the Illenium System. I asked Pablo about it a few months ago and he said he couldn't get into it with so much story left to tell. I know it's not confirmation but it leaves the possibility open. PH could have shot it down in flames and said why would Evil!Kylo do such a thing as warn his mother? I guess we will see...
@Mrs Ben Solo

This is exactly what I think happened, and I think it's one of the things that will help with Kylo Ren's PR problem once they start to make clear(er?) that he will be redeemed. Even the biggest Kylo haters would think he can't be completely bad if at the height of his wickedness and betrayal he still tried to save his mom.

But yeah, the idea that Leia's methodical pragmatism, her thinking always of the greater good before the good of her loved ones etc might have been a mechanism facilitating Ben's downfall is interesting and again would definitely go a long way towards making him a sympathetic figure, though I'm not sure I like this set up.

I would understand Leia's being troubled by the state of the galaxy, and that being all consuming. This might preoccupy her to the point where she doesn't pay as much attention to what is going on with Ben as she should. But actually abandoning him is a bit much for me as a fan of Leia. >_<

Hopefully they will negotiate the explanation of Ben's downfall without knocking down our heroes too much. In TFA Han says to Leia "There is nothing more we could have done" in reference to their efforts to get their son back. I'm hoping that is true and that their parenting wasn't something straight out of the Jedi Council's guide to child rearing. :/
@Darth Rowan

I'm a big fan of Leia's too and much as I love Kylo, I wouldn't want her to be portrayed negatively in order to facilitate his redemption.

There is something that could mitigate it, though, if Ben was initially left unwillingly in Snoke's hands. I remember someone asking Pablo how Han knew it was Ben under Kylo's mask and robes (as PH also said in another tweet that Kylo's real identity wasn't widely known among the resistance, although Lor San Tekka also knew Kylo was Ben Solo) Pablo said that story was yet to be told. It could imply that Han (and maybe others) went to try and retrieve Ben from Snoke and the First Order at an earlier point, but were obviously unsuccessful. Perhaps Ben denied his family then, as Lor San Tekka accused him of trying to do. Whichever way, it's obvious that things are not as cut and dried as some people believe with the supposed massacre of Luke's other apprentices (who we know nothing about) and Luke's activities with his acolytes in the years after the Empire fell. We don't know what sent Luke off in search of the first Jedi temple, a crisis of faith, perhaps? Or to get access to an ancient power source? The possibilities go on and on.
@Mrs Ben Solo

While I agree that leia abandoning her son would be awful I don't think it's really OOC for her @panki mentioned it already but there was a comic where Leia was ready to scarfise Han,Luke and Chewie's lives to get to Vader.There's also that scene in TFA where Finn's asking Leia to help him with Rey and while she was sorry for her being kidnapped she was like ''Yes,I'll help you but you need to tell me all the information you know'.'I'm sure Leia loves her so very much but there has to be a reason why Kylo feel so much anger and has abandonemnt issues.Honestly I thought it was a horribale thing to say that because Kylo had ''too much Vader''in him there was nothing Han or Leia could have done.And if the TFA novelization reminds canon as far as Snoke trageting Ben when he was a child and Liea knwoing and telling Han ntohignt about it this is another level of disfunctional which could have also helped Snoke corrupt Ben more easily.
@CienaRee

That was an awful thing to say, I thought, because Leia and Luke had more Vader in them than Ben - and Han has never been exactly 'whiter than white;' I noticed he fed one of the pirates to the Rathtars in TFA!
All this 'half good, half bad stuff'...none of us are pure as lilies. Leia and Luke had their demons, Han started out life as a mercenary for hire. All of that was in Ben Solo, but so was his family's courage, and their compassion. And both of those are still very strong in Ben, sadly he's been made to feel that compassion is a weakness so he tries to stifle it - but it's still there, thus his sparing of Finn and his extraordinary attitude towards Rey.
The tragedy of Ben is he had parents who didn't understand him. They loved him, but failed to see how desperately he needed them to be there for him. The lack of understanding, not love, is what led to his downfall. They both needed to get their heads out of the sand and truly 'look' at their son more. A parent must put their child first - not their own pleasures, not even the needs of a galaxy. They had to choose. And they didn't choose their child. No
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Re: Discussion: Bloodline Novel by Claudia Gray

Post by CienaRee on Sun 21 Aug - 10:19

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:
@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
@Darth Rowan wrote:
@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
All this is very interesting, especially alongside the question of whether Kylo/Ben could have sent his mother the data card warning about Starkiller targeting the Illenium System. I asked Pablo about it a few months ago and he said he couldn't get into it with so much story left to tell. I know it's not confirmation but it leaves the possibility open. PH could have shot it down in flames and said why would Evil!Kylo do such a thing as warn his mother? I guess we will see...
@Mrs Ben Solo

This is exactly what I think happened, and I think it's one of the things that will help with Kylo Ren's PR problem once they start to make clear(er?) that he will be redeemed. Even the biggest Kylo haters would think he can't be completely bad if at the height of his wickedness and betrayal he still tried to save his mom.

But yeah, the idea that Leia's methodical pragmatism, her thinking always of the greater good before the good of her loved ones etc might have been a mechanism facilitating Ben's downfall is interesting and again would definitely go a long way towards making him a sympathetic figure, though I'm not sure I like this set up.

I would understand Leia's being troubled by the state of the galaxy, and that being all consuming. This might preoccupy her to the point where she doesn't pay as much attention to what is going on with Ben as she should. But actually abandoning him is a bit much for me as a fan of Leia. >_<

Hopefully they will negotiate the explanation of Ben's downfall without knocking down our heroes too much. In TFA Han says to Leia "There is nothing more we could have done" in reference to their efforts to get their son back. I'm hoping that is true and that their parenting wasn't something straight out of the Jedi Council's guide to child rearing. :/
@Darth Rowan

I'm a big fan of Leia's too and much as I love Kylo, I wouldn't want her to be portrayed negatively in order to facilitate his redemption.

There is something that could mitigate it, though, if Ben was initially left unwillingly in Snoke's hands. I remember someone asking Pablo how Han knew it was Ben under Kylo's mask and robes (as PH also said in another tweet that Kylo's real identity wasn't widely known among the resistance, although Lor San Tekka also knew Kylo was Ben Solo) Pablo said that story was yet to be told. It could imply that Han (and maybe others) went to try and retrieve Ben from Snoke and the First Order at an earlier point, but were obviously unsuccessful. Perhaps Ben denied his family then, as Lor San Tekka accused him of trying to do. Whichever way, it's obvious that things are not as cut and dried as some people believe with the supposed massacre of Luke's other apprentices (who we know nothing about) and Luke's activities with his acolytes in the years after the Empire fell. We don't know what sent Luke off in search of the first Jedi temple, a crisis of faith, perhaps? Or to get access to an ancient power source? The possibilities go on and on.
@Mrs Ben Solo

While I agree that leia abandoning her son would be awful I don't think it's really OOC for her @panki mentioned it already but there was a comic where Leia was ready to scarfise Han,Luke and Chewie's lives to get to Vader.There's also that scene in TFA where Finn's asking Leia to help him with Rey and while she was sorry for her being kidnapped she was like ''Yes,I'll help you but you need to tell me all the information you know'.'I'm sure Leia loves her so very much but there has to be a reason why Kylo feel so much anger and has abandonemnt issues.Honestly I thought it was a horribale thing to say that because Kylo had ''too much Vader''in him there was nothing Han or Leia could have done.And if the TFA novelization reminds canon as far as Snoke trageting Ben when he was a child and Liea knwoing and telling Han ntohignt about it this is another level of disfunctional which could have also helped Snoke corrupt Ben more easily.
@CienaRee

That was an awful thing to say, I thought, because Leia and Luke had more Vader in them than Ben - and Han has never been exactly 'whiter than white;' I noticed he fed one of the pirates to the Rathtars in TFA!
All this 'half good, half bad stuff'...none of us are pure as lilies. Leia and Luke had their demons, Han started out life as a mercenary for hire. All of that was in Ben Solo, but so was his family's courage, and their compassion. And both of those are still very strong in Ben, sadly he's been made to feel that compassion is a weakness so he tries to stifle it - but it's still there, thus his sparing of Finn and his extraordinary attitude towards Rey.
The tragedy of Ben is he had parents who didn't understand him. They loved him, but failed to see how desperately he needed them to be there for him. The lack of understanding, not love, is what led to his downfall. They both needed to get their heads out of the sand and truly 'look' at their son more. A parent must put their child first - not their own pleasures, not even the needs of a galaxy. They had to choose. And they didn't choose their child. No
@motherofpearl1
I know I feel so sorry for Ben. No AD's potryal really gives you the sense that this man was misundesrtood and felt abandoned. No
What's interesting is that Lor San Tekka'' comment about thinking of Leia as royalty which is I think a very fitting discription because Leia really does exibit some of the traits that people who were born in royalty have  like being willing to put their  personal desries aside to help the greater good or even  sacrafising people they loves for the greater cause because being royalty also means making some questionable decisions even if you hate making them .
Remember that line from Life Debt where she says she would brun down the entire Galaxy if she thoughtit was right,it kind of reminded me of RL royalty like  Roman Emperor Nero who  might have  burned down Rome or Mary Tudor Henry VIII's daughter who burned down so many Portestants because she believed she was doing ti for the greater good (not saying Leia's anything like Nero or Mary Tudor just that there's the rebel side of her that's willing to do anything to help the ones she loves and the roylty side where she's forced to make decision she might not want to make and that's very in line with some of the questionable and sometimes brutal methods many of the royalty commited) ).

CienaRee
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

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Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

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