What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by Maria Antonietta on Sat 29 Apr - 12:50

motherofpearl1 wrote:
Maria Antonietta wrote:Sister/cousin bullsith. I don't take these stuff seriously because it's impossible to apply real world mental illnesses to fictional characters. It's all about analytical psychology, not psychiatry
@Maria Antonietta

I have to say, they did a rather good job regarding Kylo, as quite a few mentally ill and abuse survivors identify with him - not with the killings of course, but the psychological damage. Whether it's due to how he's written, or, how AD plays him, it's hard to tell - although I tend to swing more to AD's acting myself.
The 'Han Solo death scene' is the most powerful part of the film, because it's so desperately sad, not just because of the death of an icon but because of the fact that the young man who carried out this horrific act was also a victim. Adam constantly gushes about Harrison here, but I think his performance was equally good.
@motherofpearl1

He can be coded as it but, in reality, he isn't because he's just an archetype.
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat 29 Apr - 15:24

motherofpearl1 wrote:The usual 'one size fits all' policy, often applied to the mentally ill; a treatment that works with one patient works with everyone. And it doesn't. Not mocking the mentally ill here, as I'm one.
In regards to Ren, the more I see TFA the more Ren seems to be someone hiding behind a mask - not just the literal one, but a psychological one. He hides his face so no one can see what he's really thinking. I have a very strong feeling he was actually disquieted by the villagers' murder, which is why he spared Finn - he saw himself in him. He was going to pieces post his father's murder, anyone could see that. Whatever he felt after killing Han,it certainly wasn't relief. It saddens me that so many saw his bouts of rage as petulance when they were actually meltdowns.
@motherofpearl1


Reminds me of this Chirrut quote from Rogue One. It immediately made me think of Kylo, but I guess it could apply to any silently suffering character. 
"There is more than one prison. I think you carry yours wherever you go."

He hides behind the mask, but you also get the sense that he's stuck in a prison of sorts when he tells Han, "It's too late."
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by snufkin on Sat 29 Apr - 17:00

@SkyStar - oh wow and peer reviewed no less! I thought this statement was interesting, about how the coded behaviors and practices of Force worshipers could be seen as grooming/controlling behaviors which cause psychological damage to young people. Hmm, maybe it wasn't such a smart idea for Leia to pack her vulnerable son off to her weirdo space hobo brother

behaviors are not necessarily unusual for one who follows the Jedi religion, but in the real world, they can be used to demonstrate pedophilic grooming behaviors.

That said, it's more an exercise of trying to evaluate a piece of fiction/pop culture through the DSM, which isn't applicable. Even with the attempts to be relevant by comparing him to a terrorist, the real world version of Ben would be a much more different person than the one who's portrayed on screen. That would be somebody we'd pity, but probably not feel sympathetic towards.
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by snufkin on Sat 29 Apr - 17:04

Also this statement, not the relationship depicted on screen

In addition, many juveniles who kill their fathers have experienced childhood abuse.Fathers were often described as abusive, domineering, and cruel.

That's not Han. He was likely an irresponsible and neglectful father, but definitely not abusive from what was shown. It may be possible that at the worst of his indentured servitude, Ben has been convinced/forced to believe this by Snoke. Though a more reasonable guess is that like Rey's mania for staying on Jakku, it's internalized insecurity of not being good enough to be loved and that's why the parent behaved that way ('it's my fault.')
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by SkyStar on Sat 29 Apr - 20:38

snufkin wrote:Also this statement, not the relationship depicted on screen

In addition, many juveniles who kill their fathers have experienced childhood abuse.Fathers were often described as abusive, domineering, and cruel.

That's not Han. He was likely an irresponsible and neglectful father, but definitely not abusive from what was shown. It may be possible that at the worst of his indentured servitude, Ben has been convinced/forced to believe this by Snoke. Though a more reasonable guess is that like Rey's mania for staying on Jakku, it's internalized insecurity of not being good enough to be loved and that's why the parent behaved that way ('it's my fault.')
@snufkin

Yeah, Han really does not fit the abusive father trope. That is why people were so pissed in comparison to other fictional patricides (that and of course killing the holy Han Solo). That also promises more to the story as to why Kylo was so desperate that he went all the way to pass Snoke's test.
Does. not. make. sense. Well, it does, but obviously not to the majority.  But AD promised it will in TLJ!

And the comparison to the real life reminds me of telling to another person that you love Kylo and then needing to give a full disclaimer that you don't approve on patricide, killings and yada yada. Even though it should be a common sense that of course, you don't approve. And yet..
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by jakkusun on Sat 29 Apr - 22:51

@SkyStar yeah the fact the neither Han nor Kylo are completely evil makes the situation so unique and relatable. A lot of people have tensions with their parents their aren't due to abuse or the child being a bad seed, which is the situation here, heightened and dramatized in a Star Wars movie, which is also why it can't really be directly related to reality because I think the "real-life" version of their relationship would be completely non-violent. And yeah most instances of patricide in stories do seem to have either the father or child as completely evil and this just isn't the case, which makes it much more tragic and interesting. I guess that scene is one big point against tfa being a rehash. This was something new.

And yeah Kylo definitely doesn't feel relief or freedom from killing his father, definitely the opposite.

@motherofpearl1 yeah I agree that Adam driver's acting is a big part of why mentally ill people can relate to him. The way he says things is even more important than what he actually says sometimes. And even with masked scenes, like when he is talking to Vader's helmet, Adam Driver's voice work and body language adds so much humanity and depth. Of course, yeah, he isn't literally or officially mentally ill in the movie, but there is so much that is relatable and I think I helps a lot of people.
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 8 May - 7:32

Dark Padawan wrote:Hmmm....I find Kylo Ren compelling because he is....making me feel some things deep inside.
I know I should hate him, but I can't resist liking him. Despite all he does.

Anyone else has the same problem?
@Dark Padawan

Yes, but I don't see it as a problem!
But maybe that's just me.... Shocked
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat 13 May - 16:27

Call me insane, but the general fandom's opinions of Kylo really bother me. I tried to find some articles by people who had a positive reaction to this character, but they all present what are, in my passionate opinion, wrong views. People who didn't like him in TFA say he's whiny, emo, weak, lost to a girl, etc. While people who are still willing to give him a chance say, "Don't worry guys! It's called a character arc! Now that he's killed his dad, he's going to be a proper villain in the next one. Rey's his cousin and it will be Luke's light side kid vs. Leia's dark. Yeah!" I wish these people had read the book or at least listened to JJ's commentary. I know this has all been brought up before, but I just needed a rant of my own, after spending too much time Googling this morning, argh!

http://www.forevergeek.com/why-kylo-ren-is-wildly-misunderstood-and-may-be-best-star-wars-villain-yet/
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by SkyStar on Sat 13 May - 20:08

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Call me insane, but the general fandom's opinions of Kylo really bother me. I tried to find some articles by people who had a positive reaction to this character, but they all present what are, in my passionate opinion, wrong views. People who didn't like him in TFA say he's whiny, emo, weak, lost to a girl, etc. While people who are still willing to give him a chance say, "Don't worry guys! It's called a character arc! Now that he's killed his dad, he's going to be a proper villain in the next one. Rey's his cousin and it will be Luke's light side kid vs. Leia's dark. Yeah!" I wish these people had read the book or at least listened to JJ's commentary. I know this has all been brought up before, but I just needed a rant of my own, after spending too much time Googling this morning, argh!

http://www.forevergeek.com/why-kylo-ren-is-wildly-misunderstood-and-may-be-best-star-wars-villain-yet/
@Cowgirlsamurai

yeaaah, I get it. Today there were some articles in media outlets about how more and more people are naming their children Kylo and even in comments on those articles, there was the same old talk- oh but Kylo was such a weak villain etc, etc, like it is some kind of a personal slap in their faces.
I really liked Kylo after TFA and was so hurt reading all those complaints and bitching about him on some kind of personal level (I felt similar with Bran Stark after the last GOT season), that I completely erased myself from the fandom afterward and now I even kind of feel sad that I gave up so soon.  I often don't trust my impressions and I also don't like arguing, so often I just choose to just erase myself from it completely.  
I'm just probably too sensitive, but then again those people who complain about Kylo being just so pathetic etc are also too sensitive. Eh, well...
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by DarthRen on Sat 13 May - 22:29

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Call me insane, but the general fandom's opinions of Kylo really bother me. I tried to find some articles by people who had a positive reaction to this character, but they all present what are, in my passionate opinion, wrong views. People who didn't like him in TFA say he's whiny, emo, weak, lost to a girl, etc. While people who are still willing to give him a chance say, "Don't worry guys! It's called a character arc! Now that he's killed his dad, he's going to be a proper villain in the next one. Rey's his cousin and it will be Luke's light side kid vs. Leia's dark. Yeah!" I wish these people had read the book or at least listened to JJ's commentary. I know this has all been brought up before, but I just needed a rant of my own, after spending too much time Googling this morning, argh!

http://www.forevergeek.com/why-kylo-ren-is-wildly-misunderstood-and-may-be-best-star-wars-villain-yet/
@Cowgirlsamurai

I'd love to see antis reacting to Kylo actually redeming or actually turn to the Light Side and Rey not to be Luke's daughter. That would be total vindication. Reylo being a couple on top of it will be the cherry on the top.

Btw why was DarthPadawan banned?
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by Saracene on Sat 13 May - 23:14

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Call me insane, but the general fandom's opinions of Kylo really bother me. I tried to find some articles by people who had a positive reaction to this character, but they all present what are, in my passionate opinion, wrong views. People who didn't like him in TFA say he's whiny, emo, weak, lost to a girl, etc. While people who are still willing to give him a chance say, "Don't worry guys! It's called a character arc! Now that he's killed his dad, he's going to be a proper villain in the next one. Rey's his cousin and it will be Luke's light side kid vs. Leia's dark. Yeah!" I wish these people had read the book or at least listened to JJ's commentary. I know this has all been brought up before, but I just needed a rant of my own, after spending too much time Googling this morning, argh!

http://www.forevergeek.com/why-kylo-ren-is-wildly-misunderstood-and-may-be-best-star-wars-villain-yet/
@Cowgirlsamurai

It all comes from trying to fit Kylo into a villain-shaped hole when his role in the series is going to be something different. I remember thinking immediately after TFA that having Rey beat her main antagonist in the very first film was a terrible decision. It didn't make any sense to diffuse Kylo as a villain so early on. Then, once you consider the idea that maybe Kylo is not meant to be a threat to Rey but something very different instead, my complaint immediately disappeared. Maybe some fans will never get over the "weak villain" thing, but many I think wil reassess the character.
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by snufkin on Sun 14 May - 0:57

It's kind of hilarious seeing some quarters freak out/snark on the naming data that just came out here in the US. Because it's one of the fastest growing names for kids. The K part is interesting because that's a trend (Kylo Kardashian, anybody?). But it's also an indicator that hey, maybe this thing you're fixated on, you're an outlier and the rest of the population doesn't share that feeling.
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by Saracene on Sun 14 May - 1:11

I don't want to have kids but I'd totally name my cat Kylo, if I wasn't planning on getting a British Shorthair; I don't think it quite fits with that chubby-cheeks breed Smile

edit: I've read some articles about the Kylo name trend and the amount of hand-wringing in some of them is hilarious Laughing
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sun 14 May - 13:21

@SkyStar @DarthRen @Saracene

Thank you for making me feel better. I don't know why I worry so much about fictional characters Razz

I feel like the same people who complain that TFA is too much like ANH are the ones complaining that Kylo's not Vader 2.0. I say thank goodness he's not because it'll take things in a new direction.

We named our kids western names that also work phonetically in Japanese and Kylo ("Kailo") fits that mold. I'd totally use it if we had another son I love you (don't think so, though! Haha)
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 14 May - 14:19

Saracene wrote:
Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Call me insane, but the general fandom's opinions of Kylo really bother me. I tried to find some articles by people who had a positive reaction to this character, but they all present what are, in my passionate opinion, wrong views. People who didn't like him in TFA say he's whiny, emo, weak, lost to a girl, etc. While people who are still willing to give him a chance say, "Don't worry guys! It's called a character arc! Now that he's killed his dad, he's going to be a proper villain in the next one. Rey's his cousin and it will be Luke's light side kid vs. Leia's dark. Yeah!" I wish these people had read the book or at least listened to JJ's commentary. I know this has all been brought up before, but I just needed a rant of my own, after spending too much time Googling this morning, argh!

http://www.forevergeek.com/why-kylo-ren-is-wildly-misunderstood-and-may-be-best-star-wars-villain-yet/
@Cowgirlsamurai

It all comes from trying to fit Kylo into a villain-shaped hole when his role in the series is going to be something different. I remember thinking immediately after TFA that having Rey beat her main antagonist in the very first film was a terrible decision. It didn't make any sense to diffuse Kylo as a villain so early on. Then, once you consider the idea that maybe Kylo is not meant to be a threat to Rey but something very different instead, my complaint immediately disappeared. Maybe some fans will never get over the "weak villain" thing, but many I think wil reassess the character.
@Saracene

I wish they'd stop calling him that- he's not weak and he isn't a villain, he's an anti he ro.

It's actually rather sad...all his life he's been made to feel inadequate, first because he had 'too much Vader' in him, then because he has 'too much compassion'. It's also a bit disturbing, that people are actually agreeing with Snoke, who sees empathy and compassion as weak. In the UK we have a government whose treatment of the less fortunate is chillingly similar to that of fascism, yet all they say is they are 'being strong'.

The cruel, the judgmental and the heartless...now they are 'weak'.

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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Mon 15 May - 2:26

@motherofpearl1

Right? I think we're supposed to feel that Kylo deserves some empathy and compassion himself. I just want to give him a hug and a cookie in the hopes that he'd unclench his fists for a moment I love you

Has anyone here heard the theory that "Kylo" comes from "sKYwalker" and "soLO?" I saw it mentioned in the comment section on one of Thor Skywalker's videos.
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by IoJovi on Mon 15 May - 2:40

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@motherofpearl1

Right? I think we're supposed to feel that Kylo deserves some empathy and compassion himself. I just want to give him a hug and a cookie in the hopes that he'd unclench his fists for a moment I love you

Has anyone here heard the theory that "Kylo" comes from "sKYwalker" and "soLO?" I saw it mentioned in the comment section on one of Thor Skywalker's videos.
@Cowgirlsamurai

@Cowgirlsamurai I have seen that theory make the rounds, but to me it doesn't​make much sense for someone who's so hell-bent on denying his heritage, especially on his father's side.
It is interesting though, and I can see why some might come to that conclusion.

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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by Saracene on Mon 15 May - 2:51

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@motherofpearl1

Right? I think we're supposed to feel that Kylo deserves some empathy and compassion himself. I just want to give him a hug and a cookie in the hopes that he'd unclench his fists for a moment I love you

Has anyone here heard the theory that "Kylo" comes from "sKYwalker" and "soLO?" I saw it mentioned in the comment section on one of Thor Skywalker's videos.
@Cowgirlsamurai

I think it's possible that the writers coined his name as a kind of an in-joke, yes. Though it's unlikely that the character himself would have deliberately chosen the name with these considerations.
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 15 May - 5:39

I noticed that straight away but I think it's an in joke from the makers myself!
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 15 May - 5:42

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@motherofpearl1

Right? I think we're supposed to feel that Kylo deserves some empathy and compassion himself. I just want to give him a hug and a cookie in the hopes that he'd unclench his fists for a moment I love you

Has anyone here heard the theory that "Kylo" comes from "sKYwalker" and "soLO?" I saw it mentioned in the comment section on one of Thor Skywalker's videos.
@Cowgirlsamurai

I get the feeling he could use a good cuddle myself. I love you
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 19 May - 16:04

There's something I've just discovered...although it's probably already been discussed.......but regarding the notion Snoke 'groomed' Kylo.

I've recently watched two vintage episodes of Law and Order Special Victims Unit and both dealt with 'psychological' grooming.
Of course, there isn't anything sexual about Kylo's abuse by Snoke, but what I found interesting was these episodes showed how destructive psychological grooming can be. Both victims had been essentially brainwashed by their abusers into believing they 'loved' them. Which is of course what Snoke did with Kylo. He took advantage of his loneliness and feeling of isolation and made him think that no one understood him,no one wanted him and no one loved him - except his abuser.
It's almost astonishingly obvious, and crazy as it is I hope some poor kid who's going through this for real might be helped to get away from a real life situation by watching this.
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by Armadeus on Mon 5 Jun - 14:35

Again I find parallels in Greek mythology. A few years ago, Charlotte Higgins wrote the article The Iliad and what it can still tell us about war for The Guardian.

Not a 1:1 comparison, but I believe it's interesting to consider when one accounts for SW roots in ancient myths.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/jan/30/iliad-war-charlotte-higgins

Below is an excerpt:

Charlotte Higgins wrote:At the end of the poem comes the scene between Priam and Achilles, when the frail, grieving father finds it in himself to kiss those "terrible, man-­killing hands / that had slaughtered Priam's many sons in battle", when ­Achilles sees reflected in the face of Priam the likeness of his own beloved father. Weil underestimated the power of this passage. Achilles is not simply an unfeeling "thing", reduced by the unspeakable power of force. The truth may be harder to take. He is at the same time a mass slaughterer and the gentlest of men. Only a few lines of verse stand between the Achilles who wipes away the tears of his beloved Patroclus and the one who piles up hecatombs of the Trojan dead. Find in this comfort, if you can.
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Re: What makes Kylo Ren so compelling?

Post by guardienne on Fri 9 Jun - 14:12

jakkusun wrote:@SkyStar yeah the fact the neither Han nor Kylo are completely evil makes the situation so unique and relatable. A lot of people have tensions with their parents their aren't due to abuse or the child being a bad seed, which is the situation here, heightened and dramatized in a Star Wars movie, which is also why it can't really be directly related to reality because I think the "real-life" version of their relationship would be completely non-violent. And yeah most instances of patricide in stories do seem to have either the father or child as completely evil and this just isn't the case, which makes it much more tragic and interesting. I guess that scene is one big point against tfa being a rehash. This was something new.

And yeah Kylo definitely doesn't feel relief or freedom from killing his father, definitely the opposite.

@jakkusun

i can't think of many stories of patricide to begin with, except for oedipus rex and commodus and marc aurelius, i think only the latter serves as a good example of patricide and madness. which ones were you thinking of?
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