Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by IoJovi on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 6:04 pm

@Darth Rowan wrote:Re: Book of Henry, I just got out of the theater. Guys, I didn't hate it. After seeing it for myself I am actually surprised at all the vitriol and the intensity of the backlash. It's no masterpiece and won't win any awards but it's not the worst thing I've ever seen and I actually enjoyed parts of it as much as I found parts of it annoying. I guess I understand now why audience ratings are in the 70% range.  *shrug*

Hard to talk about it without spoiling the key events but I will see if I can put a review together when I get home.
@Darth Rowan

That is great news. While I too am nervous about Trevorrow while simultaneously not trying to dwell on it, this makes me feel a tiny bit better. I'll admit that I wouldn't be sad or upset if he were replaced, but at this point I think the likelihood of that is miniscule. I don't think any of us rooting for him to fail; the truth is though that Reylo (which he'll likely be helming at its climax) needs to be handled with the utmost care and I still have questions if he's up to that task.

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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 6:07 pm

@Darth Rowan wrote:Re: Book of Henry, I just got out of the theater. Guys, I didn't hate it. After seeing it for myself I am actually surprised at all the vitriol and the intensity of the backlash. It's no masterpiece and won't win any awards but it's not the worst thing I've ever seen and I actually enjoyed parts of it as much as I found parts of it annoying. I guess I understand now why audience ratings are in the 70% range.  *shrug*

Hard to talk about it without spoiling the key events but I will see if I can put a review together when I get home.
@Darth Rowan

This makes me feel a lot better. It still doesn't explain why they don't have an A-game player, but this allays my worst fears.  I was really put off by how some of the reviewers seemed to indicate how it was almost grotesque in its lack of emotional judgment, like it was "disturbing" instead being just mediocre.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 7:33 pm

I think BoH looks pretty good from the trailer, and definitely something I'd go see. Smile

Also, out of place nudity disturbs me whether it's male or female. I doubt we'd be shown shirtless Kylo, and that's fine by me. I loved his head to toe flowy blackness in TFA ^^
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by AceofWands on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 7:40 pm

Impressive that the best thing to be said about CT is that he's not terrible.

But there's one thing I don't get about the criticism (not here, but in general) that he got the job cause he's a white man. Fair enough that there should be more women directors, more non white directors, and heck, it would be actually awesome to have an Asian director for SW.

The problem, however, is that I'm pretty sure there are at least some 50 male white directors who have a better track record than Colin Trevorrow.

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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by snufkin on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 9:05 pm

Just got home from working as a volunteer for a regional French film festival where a big part of theme this year is stories by and about women in light of Jessica Chastain's comments this year at Cannes. Which I think helped set the stage in part for the larger discussion going on that BoH and IX have become part of.

Jessica Chastain wrote:One thing I got to take away from this experience is how the world views women, from the female characters I saw represented. It was quite disturbing to me, to be honest. I hope that when we include more female storytellers, we will have more of the women I recognize in my day-to-day life. Ones that are proactive, have their own agencies, don’t just react to the men around them. They have their own point of view.

Glad at least to hear that his movie is maybe just aggressively mediocre. Agreed that some of this has to do with timing of Wonder Woman's release and the amount of noise getting made over opportunities and representation for women in the entertainment industry. coupled with the skepticism a lot of critics/industry writers/professionals had about Trevorrow being handed these opportunities on so thin a resume with a less than distinctive/compelling style. So there's both a backlash and being completely direct in looking at how his brief body of work raises some serious concerns about entrusting both Leia and Rey's legacies with him.

@nonesuch covers all the points in a fair but thorough manner. But even if BoH's bad reviews are in part because he's a polarizing figure, a fair analysis of how he sees female characters, from both his Empire interview (the other being when Charles Jane Ander from io9.com brought it up with him) and characters, what that means for the female characters in IX being treated as more than tropes and means to an end for the male characters:



From his subsequent comments since then, he knows that he's under scrutiny. Which is not to say that Gold Star for a man having a minimum of awareness about the issues when it comes to opportunities for women in the industry and how his specific treatment of female characters merits criticism. The JW2 related social media still seems pretty tone deaf with the posts about "Claire wears sensible shoes!" or BDH's yay Girl Power posts about WW or somebody on the crew wearing a "The Future is Female Shirt." They're slowly grokking Girl Power, which is not feminism or more importantly, equality.

One thing to keep in mind with all of the negative reviews and comments, these aren't disgruntled fans or niche entertainment industry writers making these comments. These are people who have relationships with Lucasfilm and the franchise as go-to publications and journalists for promoting their movies/shows/publications.

1. Hollywood Reporter - keep in mind that 2 years ago, HR published a cover story in light of JW's success that was a sitdown with KK, her husband Frank Marshall, and Steven Spielberg. In which Trevorrow was feted for the insane box office success of that movie, praised by Spielberg. With some "I don't know her" shade thrown at Josh Trank when the question of hiring unproved young male indie directors for blockbusters. All of the discussions in light of Wonder Woman about Patty Jenkins' career path since directing Monster in 2003 versus Trevorrow, he's become the poster boy for how male directors (as with most professions) have lower barriers to entry and more support versus women. As I said before, it's ironic that for KK's comment of not wanting to have a female director because of the risk of backlash if they make a critical or box office mistep, hiring this guy because of the $$$ he earned for JW has ironically landed them in the same position.

2. Variety - Editorial piece by Owen Glieberman, is one of the best known and respected film critics here in the States. He was with Entertainment Weekly, one of the publications that LF always works work, for almost 15 years. Coming from him, his words hold weight.

3. Vanity Fair - no matter how much their cover story turned out to be a Pandora's Box, they're THE publication which fields the first look at a movie and exclusive photographs. And they wrote a story about it, along with Joanna Robinson, one of their main entertainment writers who's handled some of the Star Wars tie-in articles, has been a consistently loud critic of his work and the decision to hire him.

4. Entertainment Weekly - their go-to Star Wars correspondent Anthony Breznican has not said anything about Trevorrow or his movie at all. Which to repeat something @solosidecousin brought up, the lack of any kind of supportive statement from some of the usual suspects, is saying something. And this is the conclusion for their negative review:

Much more worrisome is the fact that the movie was made by Jurassic World’s Colin Trevorrow, who’s directing Star Wars: Episode IX. Shiny dinosaurs apparently distracted most audiences from his lack of finesse and his dependence on character clichés: Vincent D’Onofrio’s “military baddie,” meet Norris’ “pedo next door.” Bryce Dallas Howard’s “sexy career girl,” meet Watts’ “waitress mom.” And Star Wars fans, meet your sense of grave concern.

Final thought, some of this is unfair to one person because it's more about the Old Boy's Club and a system which has perpetuated this behavior. And it's easier to pile on one person versus going after the system and more importantly, the three extremely powerful and wealthy people who've been perpetuating this practice. KK's instincts are also responsible for having AD as Kylo and RJ in charge of TLJ. But that same instinct also perpetuated the practice now under fire by hiring Trevorrow and Edwards for Rogue One because the BO they made on blockbusters made them conservative/safe choices.


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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by snufkin on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 9:24 pm

Sorry, an addendum. I think as with the fan freak out about Johnson's comments that he wasn't beholden to any story direction or plot points, this brings up old issues that a lot of fans have thanks to the previous trilogies. Lucasfilm has had to tap dance its a** off to assure fans who feel like their trust was betrayed, either by Lucas' passion project only being appealing/understandable to him or by how Leia was treated at the finale of the OT. Some of what drives these flare ups are the feelings that behavior you were promised wouldn't happen again, so you gave your trust to somebody, "Holy s**t, are they doing that thing all over again?"

The "OMG What if it turns out as badly written as the PT?!" Fear in which you have the characters brought to life by writers like Lawrence Kasdan, Rian Johnson, and likely Carrie Fisher reduced to "I don't like sand" dialogue or plots where I still couldn't tell you despite watching it why people keep trying to assassinate a character who's about as compelling as a high school student body president.

The "that female lead character is too much of a feisty b*tch, we need to make her more relatable by taking off her clothes and having her be supportive of the male lead's Hero's Journey" Fear (e.g. everything the ST, including Bloodline, is supposedly trying to "make things right.")

Carrie Fisher and Daisy Ridley wrote:FISHER: Oh, you're going to have people have fantasies about you! That will make you uncomfortable, I'm guessing.

RIDLEY: Yeah, a bit.

FISHER: Have you been asked that?

RIDLEY: No, they always talk about how you're a sex symbol, and how do I feel about that. [Fisher sighs] I'm not a sex symbol! [laughs]

FISHER: Listen! I am not a sex symbol, so that's an opinion of someone. I don't share that.

RIDLEY: I don't think that's the right—

FISHER: Word for it? Well, you should fight for your outfit. Don't be a slave like I was.

RIDLEY: All right, I'll fight.

FISHER: You keep fighting against that slave outfit.

RIDLEY: I will.

One of the biggest reasons to worry about no Leia in IX because of Carrie's death is that she likely would've had some input/approval over the story and script. Which given her direct comments about getting verbally abused by Marquand and her role reduced to things like the slave bikini and softened (Marquand thought Leia was "a b*tch") to a love interest/sister for the male characters, they couldn't have gotten her involvement without those issues being brought up and a promise it wouldn't happen again. Having her present would've been something of a guarantee about what got written and how the female characters were treated because she had a more direct experience and vested interest that any of the other female creative/executive team can even come close to.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by Darth Rowan on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 9:46 pm

So here are my thoughts on The Book of Henry after seeing it this afternoon:

I went in expecting the worst thing ever, but halfway into the movie I found that I was actually enjoying myself. The third act of the movie is where we abruptly find ourselves in Bizarro World, and it's baffling to the point of  being disorienting. It feels like suddenly finding yourself watching a completely different movie in a completely different genre. It's jarring to the point that it feels like Naomi Watts' character got possessed by a demonic entity or got Body Snatched by aliens - she went cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs and more competent writing and direction would have made it so that the viewer could at least fathom why. Or better yet, a more competent hand would have removed that particular plot point altogether. Still, that final part of the movie did not dampen my enjoyment of the earlier part of it.

Imo the most remarkable thing about this movie is the massive backlash against it. If it hadn't been for the Star Wars factor I would have watched it, low-key enjoyed 80% of it and then forgotten it forever shortly after leaving the theater, but here we are.

I'll give more specific feedback under a spoiler bracket just in case. There is nothing too revealing except for the final bullet point, which is a vague spoiler:

Spoiler-ish stuff:
The good:

  • The performances were great. I love Naomi Watts in anything, and if it weren't for her this movie would have fared much worse, imo. The two boys who play her sons were also great. I'm not a fan of "savant child" movies, but I found these kids less annoying and more endearing than expected.

  • There is heart and emotion in at least part of the movie. I cried and could hear sniffling all around the theater in a certain sequence; the woman sitting behind me was openly sobbing.  I know that some critics found the movie to be emotionally manipulative, but in this aspect at least it rang true to me and felt very human. This is important, imo.

  • From the start of the movie I knew it would be set in the Northeast of the United States, because of the pretty foliage. There is nothing visually stunning here, but the scenery can be pleasing to look at. I think Trevorrow also did a good job of creating a world from a child's perspective, at least early on in the film.


The bad:

  • There's that "woman problem" that the Nonesuch essay talked about. In general the women in the movie are portrayed as messes. They are all well meaning but incompetent. 11 year old Henry parents his mother with fond exasperation; she is incapable of telling her boss whether she prefers to have her check mailed or direct deposited - she must check with Henry first. I get that Henry is a genius, but that doesn't mean Mom and all the other women Henry comes into contact with have to send their brains on an extended vacation. Comparatively the men (even the villain) are portrayed as competent and well put together. Things that make you go hmm.

  • Maddie Ziegler's character could have been played by a frowny face emoji, and that is a tremendous injustice both to the story and to the character. As a lot of critics noted, the character was treated as a mere prop and it's awful because she is portraying a victim of abuse. She was reduced to mcguffin status and I don't know if it was done out of laziness or what, but either way it's not good.

  • Nothing interesting, exciting or imaginative about the direction. This movie has all the finesse of a Hallmark movie in terms of technique, and I've seen TV commercials that put more effort into capturing what is playing out.


The ugly:

  • If you're going to tell a story about child abuse, this was entirely the wrong way to go about it. >_<

  • The only true spoiler: due to events in the final third of the movie, the moral compass is just...off.  It's like Spielberg on acid. What the hell, Henry??? Budding sociopathic tendencies or altered mental status due to a health condition? Unclear.


In summary: I think the movie could have been good, but it was dragged down by a few wacky plot points and mismanaged character arcs. For my money that's ok in a movie like Book of Henry,  but for Star Wars it would be an unmitigated disaster. I am still concerned about episode IX, especially in regards to complex characters like Kylo Ren. My hope is that Lucasfilm will be motivated by the over-the-top negative reaction; they need to at least provide Trevorrow with careful oversight if they plan to keep him on board.

I do feel some relief after watching this movie, because in terms of characterization and character dynamics I think BoH is a hundred times better than Jurassic World, and because I think LF will be watching Trevorrow like a hawk after all the recent backlash - hopefully they will pull the trigger if they see scary stuff. Also, while I'm still concerned about his level of competence, after seeing this movie I think Trevorrow's heart is in the right place and he'll give us a human story in IX, which I wasn't sure he could deliver on before.

Would love to hear other impressions once more people get a chance to see it.

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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 10:05 pm

@AceofWands wrote:Impressive that the best thing to be said about CT is that he's not terrible.

But there's one thing I don't get about the criticism (not here, but in general) that he got the job cause he's a white man. Fair enough that there should be more women directors, more non white directors, and heck, it would be actually awesome to have an Asian director for SW.

The problem, however, is that I'm pretty sure there are at least some 50 male white directors who have a better track record than Colin Trevorrow.

@AceofWands

Yeah, I agree. To a certain extent by focusing more on how he is more privileged than women and PoC in film can cause us to miss a more immediate problem here.  

I mean let's just assume that the sexism is still so internalized at LF/Disney that there was never going to be woman director. That still leaves the barebones question of  "why him?" Why was he the chosen white man?

Is there really no other guy but him? Are more established directors afraid of touching SW? Is there too much micromanagement there? But still, is there not some interesting Sundance newcomer that could be hired? What about somebody who directs prestige TV? If KK was so impressed with SNG, which would indicate being impressed with relationship and character portrayals, why not go for a most established intimate film director? Why not go for someone up-and-coming at Cannes even if they are not a primary English speaker? Hollywood has always used non-American directors since the 1920s and 1930s. Ang Lee directed Sense and Sensibility and he barely spoke English at the time and it was amazing. Good grief, why not try for Ang Lee? I know people didn't like that Hulk movie, but the guy's record otherwise is incredible.

I mean it would be understandable if CT was some budding Scorsese or Spielberg, or an up-and-comer like Rian Johnson and Jeff Nichols ... but he's not. So why him?

I mean yeah, JW sold,  but wasn't that movie always going to sell? He didn't perform some miraculous feat there. So to give him the SW prize based solely on JW box office seems really short-sighted. This isn't Transformers 12 where you're just milking money. This is SW. This is restarting the franchise for the long haul. Honestly, I am really surprised at the executive decisionmaking here.


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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by snufkin on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 10:13 pm

@solosidecousin, in some ways plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. It's just feels like even more of a slap in the face because this is an issue KK has spoken out about in regards to the industry and changing things to get more women in executive, creative and technical roles at Lucasfilm.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 10:36 pm

@snufkin wrote:@solosidecousin, in some ways plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. It's just feels like even more of a slap in the face because this is an issue KK has spoken out about in regards to the industry and changing things to get more women in executive, creative and technical roles at Lucasfilm.
@snufkin

I agree. And that just makes his selection even more confusing. I mean competence needs to be the first priority and this is who she chooses?
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by snufkin on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 10:42 pm

@SoloSideCousin - we'll likely never get the whole story. But he was announced on the heels of JW making mint and the last D23 (whatever it is that Disney does as its industry showcase), so she may have been under pressure from Disney to make an announcement so VII and IX had directors lined up before TFA's release. And in this case, he'd been recommended by somebody she trusted and worked with her husband and producing partner/mentor. In the case of AD and RJ, she could back up the decision because of their talents and resume. But with both CT and GE, those were gambles based on revenue they'd generated, but which didn't necessarily guarantee the same level of talent or quality of work.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by vaderito on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 10:55 pm

MOD NOTE: Let's please refrain from bashing actors and actresses on this board. Thanks.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by snufkin on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 10:58 pm

@vaderito - as others have said in response to your earlier comments on this thread, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Some of us feel differently when it comes to this topic. And I'm pretty sure the French woman who organized the film festival I just spent the day volunteering at would have some pretty strong opinions, all expressed in French, if that criticism was directed to what's she's said about Chastain's comments.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by vaderito on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 11:06 pm

@snufkin wrote:@vaderito - as others have said in response to your earlier comments on this thread, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Some of us feel differently when it comes to this topic. And I'm pretty sure the French woman who organized the film festival I just spent the day volunteering at would have some pretty strong opinions, all expressed in French, if that criticism was directed to what's she's said about Chastain's comments.
@snufkin

I really don't care. I don't respect those who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. I remember when Chastain was criticizing sexy costumes given to superheroines and instead of pointing out Black Widow's stupid half-mast zipper and all those gratuitous butt shots, she attacked Electra, a flop movie from over a decade ago. Coward. Cause she didn't want to enrage Marvel since she was trying for Captain Marvel. The part went to Brie Larson. And then signed up for 2 movies where she was to wear exactly the type of costume she attacked. Hypocrite.

Likewise, if you are so into women rights, than don't work with Sorkin who openly disrespect women, in particular actresses.

It's how big activist Scarlett Johansson "forgot" that signing up to play a Japanese robot was not progress that she supposedly supports. That's Hollywood activism for you.

I'm glad both are bombing hard at the boxoffice.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by Sacrebleu on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 2:33 am

@snufkin wrote:One of the biggest reasons to worry about no Leia in IX because of Carrie's death is that she likely would've had some input/approval over the story and script. Which given her direct comments about getting verbally abused by Marquand and her role reduced to things like the slave bikini and softened (Marquand thought Leia was "a b*tch") to a love interest/sister for the male characters, they couldn't have gotten her involvement without those issues being brought up and a promise it wouldn't happen again. Having her present would've been something of a guarantee about what got written and how the female characters were treated because she had a more direct experience and vested interest that any of the other female creative/executive team can even come close to.
@snufkin

I didn't know this.  As I've mentioned before, I didn't care for ROTJ.  For me it was a disappointing film.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by vaderito on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 2:57 am

ROTJ is awful in every respect save Luke/Vader/Palp. HF and CF sleepwalked through it. Pacing was absolutely deathly. Jabba Palace took 15 minutes out of the movie without having any consequence for the rest of it. The writing neutered everyone who wasn't the titular Jedi character(s) and Palp. Only those 3 (Mark, JEJ, McDiarmind) showed enthusiasm for being in the movie. The less said about convenience that were Twin Sister and Yoda's death, the better. Flop. The only reason why it's a "classic" is because of Star Wars brand.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 3:16 am

Here's an interesting blog article on this whole situation from Film School Rejects.  Apparently there is a similar situation with Guy Ritchie ... though obviously Ritchie has a stronger record.

https://filmschoolrejects.com/book-of-henry-hollywoods-sunk-costs/

Also this is a tweet from a Buzzfeed critic and some commentary that was referenced in the blog post:

https://twitter.com/adambvary/status/875440667559731200
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by SanghaRen on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 4:36 am

My bad, I finally understood it comes back to giving women what they deserve. I know we are mostly women here so it makes sense to have discussions on the representation of women in SW and in cinema in general, but I honestly have to say that I wonder if this forum is still a place for me at times. I am all for equality but these are "just" movies and we seem to expect them to make social wrongs right and I wonder at times if the debates are still about the movies tied to considerations for social issues or the other way around social issues and what the movies should do about them. I personally expect a SW movie not an essay on minority rights.

As for my comparison, I stick to it @sacrebleu. Actors have the choice to look into the material and say no, too. Yes, it might mean losing a job but that's a choice. And again I appreciate AD. Funny thing is I just mentioned to my mom that AD is in a show called Girls that has a lot of nakedness. My mom was like "Really? I don't want to see it. I prefer to keep him in my mind as Kylo." Mother and daughter united by their crush on a zipped-up Kylo  Laughing

I don't know what Jessica Chastain said and I have seen very few movies with her. I know however she's a vegan to keep looking young and thin - I am not inventing she said that in a few interviews - while going around with brand labels that are anything but vegan and/or ethical. My favorite type of vegan. So I'll take stances of other more conscious meat-eating actresses over her stance any time. For the rest, I cannot say anything about her because I don't follow her. I know she has a cute 3-legged dog and I used pics of her for a haircut. I agree with @vaderito that there's a lot of talk the talk in Hollywood activism and it's not always helping because when said celebrities shout out about some issues and then do the opposite, it does not help the field activists. And I do have sometimes my issues with an actress claiming she got only 3 millions instead of 10 while there are still girls sold to slavery in other parts of the world. Yes, it's not normal she got only 3 millions due to her gender, but do I want to bring this up as a major issue and in front of a row of cameras? I find it more and more difficult to know if it's legit or just a "look at me" move. And no, I don't have specific names in mind and the numbers are not real ones.

Anyhow now I am going to use my right to vote because I am happy we got it and will show that this RL battle fought by women before me was not for nothing Smile
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by Sacrebleu on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 4:52 am

@SanghaRen wrote:As for my comparison, I stick to it @sacrebleu. Actors have the choice to look into the material and say no, too. Yes, it might mean losing a job but that's a choice. And again I appreciate AD. Funny thing is I just mentioned to my mom that AD is in a show called Girls that has a lot of nakedness. My mom was like "Really? I don't want to see it. I prefer to keep him in my mind as Kylo." Mother and daughter united by their crush on a zipped-up Kylo  Laughing
@SanghaRen

I'm not sure why you're tagging me here as I didn't say anything about the difference between Adam Driver's role in Girls and a director like Colin Trevorrow who is also the writer; it was @ZioRen who made that observation.

My main concern with Colin's attitudes is how those will affect the quality of the Star Wars film he writes and produces.  Based on his other work, my hopes are not that high.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by Darth Rowan on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 9:41 am

@snufkin wrote:(...) dialogue or plots where I still couldn't tell you despite watching it why people keep trying to assassinate a character who's about as compelling as a high school student body president.
@snufkin

Great post, but I resent the bold because I...was....president...in high school. Sad
I was and still am a nerd, but I like to think I would have been compelling enough to be the target of an interplanetary assassination plot. *flips hair*

Anyway, it's awesome to know the background of the players and publications that are making mincemeat out of Trevorrow in Colingate. It really adds a lot more weight to their words when you realize some of them have had an established relationship with LF.

Whoever mentioned there are probably a lot of behind the scenes emergency meetings going on at Disney and LF is probably right. I just wish they would say something already. As a fan I am not very happy with how they have managed the last few gates, or that they were careless enough to allow the gates to happen to begin with. Even an intern could have proofread the VF article and noted there was something wrong with calling Kylo a Sith and butchering Rian's quote, etc. That should have triggered more oversight.

@SanghaRen, I agree with some of what you've said because I personally am troubled by the idea of the creative process having to conform to social justice agendas. For me, the best person for the job should always get the role, period — regardless of their gender and race. But the point a lot of us are making here is not that CT should not direct IX because he is a white man. The problem is he does not appear to be competent and seems to have a blind spot when it comes to the characterization of female characters. Of course we worry about Rey, among other key characterizations for the ST.

Trevorrow has yet to prove himself in this regard; the only thing he has proven is that he can direct the reboot of a beloved blockbuster franchise and sell a lot of tickets. But knowing that IX will be a commercial success in his hands is slim comfort for a lot of us who want/expect/demand that IX be at least good, not just a blockbuster hit. As one of CT's critics said, "a cat riding on top of a dog could direct JW/SW and make it sell" but we want so much more out of this movie.

CT's taking over IX is to me like giving a 16 year old who just got their driving permit the keys to your brand new Lotus Elise so they can practice their parallel parking. It's just mind boggling to me that this person gets to have their baptism by fire on a project of such massive scale that means so much to so many people. That's why I'm making all this fuss, but personally I don't begrudge CT his connections and rapid rise to the top on a personal level. I just wish things worked differently at LF. I may have bought into the hype of their being a force for good in the movie making business, but this sounds like the same old story of connections/influence > merit.

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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by Sacrebleu on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 9:49 am

@Darth Rowan wrote:Trevorrow has yet to prove himself in this regard; the only thing he has proven is that he can direct the reboot of a beloved blockbuster franchise and sell a lot of tickets. But knowing that IX will be a commercial success in his hands is slim comfort for a lot of us who want/expect/demand that IX be at least good, not just a blockbuster hit. As one of CT's critics said, "a cat riding on top of a dog could direct JW/SW and make it sell" but we want so much more out of this movie.

CT's taking over IX is to me like giving a 16 year old who just got their driving permit the keys to your brand new Lotus Elise so they can practice their parallel parking. It's just mind boggling to me that this person gets to have their baptism by fire on a project of such massive scale that means so much to so many people. That's why I'm making all this fuss, but personally I don't begrudge CT his connections and rapid rise to the top on a personal level. I just wish things worked differently at LF. I may have bought into the hype of their being a force for good in the movie making business, but this sounds like the same old story of connections/influence > merit.
@Darth Rowan

This brings back memories.  When I was 16 I backed my mother's Mercedes into a stone wall.  Then I drifted out of my lane and lost the side mirror to a truck.  Then she got an Audi and I hydroplaned it into a guardrail.

I didn't get my driver's license until I was 24, and my mother's next car was a Honda.

Anyway, I'm more leery of Colin writing the script than I am of him directing the movie.  Not because he's a guy with connections, but because the writing in Home Base was so awful.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by Helix on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 10:05 am

I don't think anyone expects movies to fix social issues, but they can encourage those feeling weighed down by such issues. It would be easier if they could, but that's not the case. In some movies these issues don't really work being addressed. The way movies are made and the movies that get made are often a reflection of cinema itself. There isn't really a huge compromise being made when you add diversity and such to films, people seem to act like there's a huge sacrifice in story/creativity or something being made to make the protagonist a well written woman or black. There isn't especially if you have a competent writer/director. Cinema is still very behind and progress takes baby steps, leaps, and sometimes even stumbles ( looking at GitS ) to get there. Certain movies have guarantees to be made, like big blockbusters and remake/reboots these days and draw big audiences, adding more positive diversity is good for those hoping for the potential more positive portrayals.

Who knows what LF is doing rn. TLJ isn't even out yet.

Based on his previous works, the best to expect out of EP. 9 ( right now ) is an average movie. Which a lot of us are hoping for more since this is tying up the new trilogy. He could totally deliver, though. Stranger things have happened and he has the KK and the LF people guiding his hand. He isn't doing this alone.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by Irina de France on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 10:40 am

ALL RIGHT, I WROTE THE RANT, it was honestly pretty therapeutic AND THERE ARE 2000 WORDS AHEAD, *sigh*

Spoiler:
Honestly, after this whole debacle, I admit I feel sorry for Colin more than anything else. I mean, he seems like he believes that he climbed up because he’s talented, and yes, he is wrong in that assumption, but I know people might see it otherwise, but it’s hard to blame him. Admitting the contrary and realizing it’s all because of connections is pretty darn humiliating.

Though honestly, for pretty much any industry, that’s pretty much what happens every time: you climb up not so much because of talent, but because of connections. I know some people here won’t have much sympathy for that kind of situation, but let’s agree to disagree, and let’s at least admit that the kind of situation Colin is going through is probably stressful af at the very least. And sure, for all his faults, he doesn’t seem like a bad person, and I don’t personally hold any grudge against him. At the end of the day, it’s Kathleen Kennedy who wanted him for IX, and blame goes to her.

I think the reason why The Book of Henry is such a big deal is that it was *the* movie where Colin Trevorrow would have to show off his directing chops. Sure, Safety Not Guaranteed was nice and all, but it’s one little indie movie. JW is basically just a big money-grabbing blockbuster. BoH was not a little something Colin did just to get a little paycheck in between projects, but from what I heard, it had more of a sentimental value. He had an Academy Award winning actress like Naomi Watts and a child actor prodigy like Jacob Tremblay. And it flopped. Big time.

Carrie passed away: that was unexpected, and Colin is left to deal with that, and that is no small feat. He has to deal with a grieving fandom, and that fandom happens to be the “Han Shot First” fandom, and also the fandom George Lucas said at the 40th anniversary could be “not very nice” (and for all of Ol’ Georgie’s many sins, I felt sorry for him at that moment). And if we are to believe various interviews and Rian Johnson, Colin is the one who has to figure out who Snoke is, has to show how Rey is important for the entire galaxy (probably because TLJ will be all about Luke and Ben’s personal drama), and has to give Rey, Ben/Kylo, Finn, Rose and Poe an ending that’s probably going to be bittersweet, but will have certain closure. And sure, he has the story group backing him, but there are still reasons to be concerned.

But at the same time, there does seem to be a witch hunt for him. It’s like the entire world became woke after realizing that, oh my god, a female-driven movie works so much better when it’s a female director (D’HUH) and it took freaking Wonder Woman for that, and I can’t help but laugh at the hypocrisy. I get the impression they needed a scapegoat to show their wokeness, and they decided to jump on Colin. (Like, praise Ghostbusters to the high heavens as much as you want, and as much as the backslash was ugly, it’s actually pretty ironic when it was so obvious to me when I saw the movie that it was directed by a man) It makes me all morbidly curious about The Book of Henry, but I’ll wait until it comes to Netflix (I don’t feel like spending my money to go and see it, lol). I think the guy should have at least gained a bit more experience before getting thrown on big projects. (And why do I have a feeling a psychanalyst would have a blast with that guy? He’s probably the last person to realize it, but he really seems to have an issue with mothers/mother figures…)

This said, yes, I was weary about him being the director for IX from the beginning. I wasn’t expecting something as bad as the Richard Marquand situation where rumor has it that he put Leia in a slave bikini to humiliate Carrie Fisher, but still. At the time, I had only seen Jurassic World, and, let’s be honest: the film *is* polarizing at best. I know a lot of people who loved it. I personally saw it as yet another uninspired remake that did surprisingly well at the box-office (And poor Chris Pratt, too: GOTG is pretty much his only saving grace nowadays. Dude can’t catch a break since Parks & Rec and how he had to lose weight so quickly to fit in the leading man mold is rather worrying). But I will mention right away that while I do enjoy the original Jurassic Park trilogy, I can’t really say I’m a big fan of it, either. The only saving grace I found to JW is that the action scenes were pretty well-done, so I was hoping the major personal conflicts would be resolved in TLJ and that IX would be more action-packed, but the situation has changed.

If you look at the other directors, JJ had Star Trek under his belt (yes, I know, the second movie was not so good, despite a score of 86% on Rotten Tomatoes, but the first is generally well-liked), he’s very imaginative (perhaps too much, lol), he’s got an eye for casting, and since he’s good at starting stories, he was a good pic for TFA. He had a big name like Lawrence Kasdan to help him out. Rian Johnson was an indie director, but his movies are generally well-liked, and he’s best-known as the guy who directed the Best Breaking Bad Episode Ever. Everyone in the cast and crew have nothing but praise for him, and it’s been that way for a year. As for Gareth Edwards, I admit it: because of all the rewrites, I don’t know how much of Rogue One comes from him (which is not good, lol).

I honestly don’t know what Lucasfilm is going to do, at this point. I haven’t seen anyone from there rushing to defend Colin, either, so he must really feel like he’s in the lions’ den right now.

Colin’s situation kind of reminds me of Joel Schumacher’s back in the late 90s-early 00s: his first hit was The Lost Boys, which became a cult classic, and it’s probably because of that movie Andrew Lloyd Webber contacted him in the early 90s to direct a film adaptation of the Phantom of the Opera musical (Casting rumors for it were crazy, at the time: Michael Jackson was claiming that he should be playing the Phantom!). Problem is, the film got delayed because Sarah Brightman (who was ALW’s wife at the time and from whom he had written the role of Christine for) divorced ALW, and ironically enough, it was because of all the pressure he put her through during the time she was working in POTO. Meanwhile, Joel Schumacher went off to replace Tim Burton in the Batman franchise, and he did… Batman and Robin. Aka that movie that ruined the Batman franchise forever until Christopher Nolan jumped in. (And it almost ruined poor Uma Thurman’s career too: if it wasn’t for Kill Bill, she would have fallen into oblivion)

Regardless, in the early 2000’s, Andrew Lloyd Webber still thought hiring Schumacher for a film adaptation of POTO was a good idea (I mean, it wasn’t like it was the first time he was making questionable decisions, AND IT WOULDN’T BE THE LAST ROFLMAO, YA EVER HEARD OF LOVE NEVER DIES, JURASSIC WORLD AND ITS REPRESENTATION OF WOMEN IS A WALK IN THE PARK COMPARED TO THAT). The film ended up being very, very, VERY polarizing, causing a rift in the POTO fandom with consequences that still have repercussions today, and yes, it was very ugly, and I could give a 1-hour podcast about it, but long story short, the movie had nice visuals, but singers who couldn’t really sing apart from Patrick Wilson and Jennifer Ellison, and since Minnie Driver could provide the acting but the opera singing part, they had her singing voice dubbed, and many, many, many other problems. Reviews were pretty lukewarm, despite the movie being a massive hit in Japan, and it kind of made Schumacher’s career die down for good (seriously, only thing of note he’s done since then is directing two House of Cards episodes).

I admit I’m kind of skimming through the list of all the directors I know right now.

- Ava DuVernay is busy with A Wrinkle in Time;
- I don’t know if Christopher Nolan has any upcoming projects, but he’d be a good choice;
- Guillermo del Toro declined once, but they could always try asking him again;
- Tahita Watiki is a possible choice too, so is Patty Jenkins (but for the last two, KK better contact them quick before someone else snatches them);
- STAY FAR, FAR AWAY FROM JOSS WHEDON (did anyone see the leaked draft he did for WW? It’s really that bad.);
- Bill Condon is just as uninspired as Colin. There, I said it, and don’t give me BatB as a reason to why they’d choose him because you’re just proving my point;
- Alan Lee would be a very interesting choice (dude did Sense and Sensibility with Emma Thompson and Wuxia films, including Hidden Dragon, Crouching Tigger for Jesus Christ’s sake);
- I’d LOVE to have Denis Villeneuve, but he’s busy with Blade Runner, and the next big project he wants to tackle is A MOVIE ADAPTATION OF DUNE, YISSSSS. So yeah, dude is busy.
- Elizabeth Banks likes Reylo and frankly, I’d trust her for the movie, but she’s busy adapting The Red Queen.
- I wouldn’t mind Peter Jackson, and he’s done Tintin with Spielberg. So he’s a potential contender. And yes, The Hobbit had problems, but it was the studio’s fault, not Peter’s. (Also, him doing the story treatment could mean that his wife Fran Walsh could be collaborating, and having a female perspective to write a female-driven story is always good).
- I know people will scream in terror, but I think Steven Moffat could be a choice as well. He’s done with Doctor Who, that makes him available, and for all his many flaws, I’d take him over CT any day. (And frankly, say what you want, but he still treated female characters in DW better than Russell T. Davies did.) At least the dude is actually imaginative and I can be sure with him that he’ll think of something original for Snoke’s origins.
- I think I’ve seen Edgar Wright’s name getting thrown around too?

Anyway, back to SW… as for the rather terrifying perspective that Colin might “ruin” SW… Lucasfilm is on a slippery slope right now. They worked hard, I beg you to excuse my English, to make SW great again. George Lucas effed up big time with the prequels, and he was a big Hollywood name. He effed up with Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman too: Natalie used to be a child actor prodigy, was considered one of the worst actresses in Hollywood after the prequels, and it took high-placed friends for her to rebuild her reputation and become among the most praised; Hayden wasn’t so lucky, and if it wasn’t for George’s terrible directing, he would have had a pretty decent career: nowadays, he can’t get cast in anything. Ewan McGregor seems to have come out unscathed, but that might be partly due to the fact that he was considered to be the best (and sometimes only good) thing to come out of the prequels, and doing Moulin Rouge! probably helped too.

And, if you look at the OT… Harrison Ford went on and became the highest grossing actor of all times, I don’t know if Mark Hamill deliberately chose to become a voice actor or if it was just too hard for him to get roles in movies without being type-casted because “he’s Luke Skywalker”, or a mix of both, and Carrie Fisher had the potential of becoming the next Lucille Ball, but she had her own demons to fight.

For the ST actors… I don’t know. Oscar Isaac and Domhnall Gleeson already had a decent career pre-ST, Gwendoline Christie has Game of Thrones and when that’ll be done, she’d easily get work in the UK considering she’s Simon Callow’s protegee, Adam Driver is slowly making his way higher though it’s obviously not his priority and he just wants to work on projects he likes, regardless of money, John Boyega seems to know what he’s doing and he’s getting Pacific Rim 2 under his belt, but honestly, the two I’m worried about are Daisy Ridley and Kelly Marie Tran.

It’s too early to say for Kelly, but she’s an Asian actress, which will make things harder for her, and I’ll confess that I was (and still am) worried by how CT would treat Rose in IX. As for Daisy… I’ve seen people saying that it’s possible she might not do anything of note after Star Wars, and unfortunately, that might be a possibility. But it’s still very early, and we can only hope that Daisy can do more with Rey than the little we got from TFA. Murder on the Orient-Express could help, but we’ll see. (I have to say: it was a smart move to get away from that Lara Croft film: video game movies have a bit of a bad rap, and Alicia Vikander is capable of coming out of it unscathed) She’s also going to be in a movie based on a YA novel, but thing is with those YA novel adaptations is that either they’re great, either they flop, either they’re forgettable. I wish Daisy the best, but I really hope she’ll get to prove herself eventually. Though for some reason, I won’t be surprised if she decides to fade away and do smaller projects after SW.

So long story short, the only people in the cast Colin could potentially harm are Daisy and Kelly. And considering his record with female characters… that is not good. At all. Though he does seem to have a grudge against mother/mother figures, and that’s not really what Rey and Rose are, but it is very worrying that he was chosen for what was supposed to be Leia’s movie. (Though I would have paid big money to see Carrie Fisher drag Colin Trevorrow’s *ss. It would have been glorious.)

So after this glorious f*cking rant, and I have no clue why I wrote all this, it’s probably therapy or something, there are two scenarios coming to me at this point:

1) Lucasfilm goes for the tough love approach and fires Colin Trevorrow altogether: it’s possible, considering no one from LF stepped in to defend him after the BoH debacle, and that BoH is awful. You can be sure after that that critics will be merciless for IX. They don’t want to take any risks, and prefer hiring another director they know they can trust (and if they do that, they’ll do it pretty quickly, especially if they decide to set their eyes on Patty Jenkins or Tahita Watiki before someone else snatches them away). And if Disney is nice enough, they give Colin a consolation price and keep him for a smaller project for Disney (like directing a few episodes for a series on ABC or something). The official announcement goes along the lines of Colin and LF parting ways due to “differing visions” or whatever.
2) They keep Colin, but they force him to work with another director/other screenwriters, in a similar way they did with Gareth Edwards.

As for Kathleen Kennedy… listen, guys, I think KK’s only real agenda after all this is the $$$. She’s savvy enough to know that she needs to appeal to the female audience, she knows when to throw the bones, and when to throw the juicier ones, but she won’t go as far as we’d like her to. Priority is still $$$. And considering the industry she’s in, and considering this is Amurrica, nothing surprising here. The fact that she didn’t hire a single male director for all of the SW movies until now already made me raise a brow when I heard about her speech about including more women in the industry. She hired Colin maybe because she saw something in Safety Not Guaranteed (though honestly, at this point, I’m not convinced by that), but also because he got recommended to her by Steven Spielberg, who’s not only one of the greatest directors of all time, but also her mentor. So OF COURSE she trusts him. And JW’s big box office probably proved to her that she was making a good investment. And as many people pointed out, Colin seems like a nice guy, and she probably thought that, hey, he seems cool to work with, that’s always a plus.

So long story short, we just need to keep in mind that the only agenda behind all this mess is the $$$. The rest is probably insignificant.


Also, as an addenddum, I have to agree with @SanghaRen and @vaderito here: count me in the crowd of people who are more than tired of celebrities virtue-signaling and then afterwards not doing anything despite all their great speeches, and making it clear that in the end, it was just to get attention. And yes, count me in the bunch of people who were pretty pissed Meryl Streep put martial arts and football in the same basket in her Golden Globe speech. Because, surprise, outside of Amurica, martial arts are considered to be very important and even a form of art in East Asian countries.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by snufkin on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 10:42 am

@Darth Rowan - Ha! I too was student government nerd, so that's the source of my crack. The PT war is about as dramatic as the time the previous administration made a back room deal to spend our entire annual budget on booking somebody's boyfriend's band for the Halloween dance. No assasins though come to think of it, more drama than the entire PT.Let's put it this way, Padme is no Tracy Flick. Or more to the point, she's what Leia would've been if Gloria Katz, Leigh Brackett, Carrie Fisher, and Lawrence Kasdan hadn't been involved in the OT and George Lucas alone had written her.
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Re: Colin Trevorrow for Episode IX

Post by Helix on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 10:54 am

I've never been a fan of how society treats people like Directors or Actors. They're either Gods or Demons. They do the bare minimum to get all this love and to be treated like royalty. They're as much entertainment as the movies they make. People hang off their every words and they use it. I mean yes; there's talent involved, a lot goes into movies and acting, but one can say that for many other jobs. Society has made their lives into these big events, people get all excited about their marriages and relationships. When, in reality, all they do is play characters on the big screen. I admire plenty of actors and directors, but I've never gotten the intense love or vitriol for some ( like George Lucas, who has plenty of both extremes ).


You see how the love can get some so much in life and the hate can just bring them down to their lowest points.
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