Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by AppleCrumble122 on Tue 5 Apr - 17:36

@rey09 wrote:Yea I get down when I here bits of "irredeemable" Kylo but let's not forget that he's already done the worst of the worst --- killing is own father. He ordered the kill for the villagers, he put Finn into a coma, and I'm sure there's a huge list. There is no denying he is bad to the bone. We can only hope that after the events of TFA, he will change. Ashes of his enemies vs rebirth of a sun? Come on now.

Also, it also seemed like JJ just wanted him to slam down the helmet in something cool and it seemed like a dark plot point.
@rey09

Don't forget all the awful things Darth Vader did: He slaughtered Jedi, including children during Order 66, choked his pregnant wife (which lead to her death), killed a rebel officer and tortured Leia during ANH, as well as being partly responsible for blowing up a planet, killed his own subordinates and willingly brutalized Luke both physically and mentally during their duel in ESB, despite knowing full well that Luke was his son. Whenever you get down, just think if Vader can be redeemed after doing all that then so can Kylo Ren. Wink

In regards to this factor though... yeah that's just ramped up the creepy factor for me. *shivers*
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by SanghaRen on Tue 5 Apr - 17:41

The problem is JJ could have avoided to mention it if it was just for dark coolness factor and had no consequences on the story. The minute he mentions it, whether it will be further explored in the next episode or not, it becomes a proof of intent.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Gemini on Tue 5 Apr - 17:50

I dont see this as an issue.

he is a villain when we first met him, he has done unspeakable things. Yes I agree with others when they say that he seems to need to hold on to relics of evil/his evil deeds in order to cling to the dark side, it means his natural state is not really dark, thats why he's being so torn apart
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by vaderito on Tue 5 Apr - 17:57

yeah, people are panicking for nothing. his offscreen murders mean nothing. Only Han's murder mean everything. That's what he needs to overcome.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 5 Apr - 17:59

@vaderito wrote:yeah, people are panicking for nothing. his offscreen murders mean nothing. Only Han's murder mean everything. That's what he needs to overcome.
@vaderito

I'm not really panicking, I just wish JJ would shut up. Razz
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by vaderito on Tue 5 Apr - 18:08

why/ We knew he did some serious sith and, besides, ashes of his enemies could be various Mitakas. Vader was strangling Empire officers left and right so it's fair to assume Kylo does the same with FO ones.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 5 Apr - 18:13

@vaderito wrote:why/ We knew he did some serious sith and, besides, ashes of his enemies could be various Mitakas. Vader was strangling Empire officers left and right so it's fair to assume Kylo does the same with FO ones.
@vaderito

Well, it's a matter of taste, I suppose - I'd rather not imagine Kylo killing officers left and right and then storing their ashes in a container. That would seriously jar with the character I saw on the screen.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by panki on Tue 5 Apr - 18:15

If I had seen him scooping up ashes in Tuanul village and laughing gleefully, I might have been concerned....I still think it is not the ashes of dead people...or at most, it is the ashes form the burning jedi temple incident.

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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by BlackIsTheColor on Tue 5 Apr - 18:16

I don't mind about the ashes, it has a kind of middle ages vibe that goes well with SW being a myth/ fairty tale.
It's better to keep your enemies ashes than eating their hearts, so to speak Very Happy

edit: I like the armchair, though
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by BastilaBey on Tue 5 Apr - 18:23

I do think it's a good point that JJ should probably stop talking about TFA, although I guess it makes sense right now since the dvd is being released. His film is finished, out there in public, and he shouldn't really be adding in more details to the character's canon if they weren't in the final cut. Rian is the storyteller now, and if something isn't in the first film, it shouldn't have an impact on where the plot or characters go next. It's a difficult issue, I guess because JJ will keep getting questions about it for a long time.

It reminds me of when JK Rowling added things once all of the books and films were out. When she said she regretted putting Ron and hermione together, and that she should have probably ended up with Harry, that ruined it a bit for me. I get that it's her creation and she can say what she wants, but you also have a finished product out there and chose the trajectory and ending for those characters. It changes the audience's perception.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by MyOnlyHope on Tue 5 Apr - 19:02

What are you guys talking about? Kylo's redemption has nothing to do with the deplorable choices he's made in the past. We already knew his job within the First Order was to interrogate and execute war criminals. The Visual Dictionary displays his array of torture instruments, and points out that he "uses taunts and psychological attacks" to unnerve his enemies. He's a contemptible villain, a tragic, conflicted, young man who's made all the wrong decisions in life, who consciously allows himself to be manipulated and used.

But redemption is never wholly dependent on past sins. The choices Kylo makes throughout the next two episodes will determine his fate, not the random FO assignments he undertook as Snoke's villainous apprentice. J.J.'s remark about the ashes was just a bit of fun trivia for fans who care about that sort of thing. Some people want to know about the technicalities of Starkiller Base's solar weapon, the number of X-Wings that arrived to defend Maz's castze, or exactly how Kylo's cross-guard functions.

We're still dealing with the same delightful, inherently optimistic children's franchise. People love Star Wars because it instils them with a sense of childlike wonder. It fills viewers with optimism. At the end of the day, no fan watches Star Wars to see Han and Leia's tragic son, a man who's made all the wrong choices in life, continue to make wrong choices for two more episodes and then die shrouded in darkness. Nope. That's not how character development works.

J.J. agrees: To me, [the important thing] was meeting new characters who discover themselves that they are in a universe that is spiritual and that is optimistic, in a world where you meet people that will become your family."
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by vaderito on Tue 5 Apr - 19:16

@MyOnlyHope

it's about time someone makes a vid out of Secrets of TFA's ending "family history" montage where this moment



pops up between sugar and honey moments such as forehead kiss and Maz holding Rey's hand, surrounded by moments of people hugging or otherwise showing familial affection for each other. if that doens't say where Ben is going I don't know what does.

Kylo is a villain so it's natural that we'll hear about bad sith he did off screen. But as you say, that's in his past. What's ahead matters.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by IoJovi on Tue 5 Apr - 19:21

If we had actually seen him collecting his enemies corpses and incinerating them onscreen, and more importantly having an inkling of his mindset, I might have a different view. That said, what I got from JJ's interview was the reason it was used is primarily for cinematic effect. The ashes were originally supposed to be there during his one-on-one with grand dad, yet they were cut from that scene. The fact that they were cut out to begin with is what's important.

I'm still not worried. If we can get past him killing Han, we can get past this.

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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Darth Dingbat on Tue 5 Apr - 19:22

@vaderito wrote:@MyOnlyHope

it's about time someone makes a vid out of Secrets of TFA's ending "family history" montage where this moment



pops up between sugar and honey moments such as forehead kiss and Maz holding Rey's hand, surrounded by moments of people hugging or otherwise showing familial affection for each other. if that doens't say where Ben is going I don't know what does.

Kylo is a villain so it's natural that we'll hear about bad sith he did off screen. But as you say, that's in his past. What's ahead matters.
@vaderito

Yeah, but the ash isn't off screen. If JJ hadn't said anything about the ash, it would be just mystery ash (or kitty litter, LOL). Now this new info paints him as a "psycho Kylo" that contradicts the deeply conflicted man we actually saw in the film.

I don't know, everybody sees things differently, but to me someone who keeps the ashes of people he's killed is a whole different kind of "bad sith". What we saw in the film was a man who's done seriously bad sith and is deeply conflicted and seemingly anxious about the darkness he inhabits. A man who keeps mementoes of that bad sith is something different. To me, at least.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by BastilaBey on Tue 5 Apr - 19:24

Now I am wondering if this detail has been thrown out just because it seemed like too many people had already bought into Kylo getting redeemed and they want to keep us on our toes. They are totally messing with our heads, this fandom is a roller coaster.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Darth_Awakened on Tue 5 Apr - 19:26

@panki wrote:If I had seen him scooping up ashes in Tuanul village and laughing gleefully, I might have been concerned....I still think it is not the ashes of dead people...or at most, it is the ashes form the burning jedi temple incident.

I thought it as well.
And do not forget everyone: granpa killed a bunch of little cute kids - and he has been redeemed.
After obvious shock at first glance, I would rather see it as SW "folklore". We ll tend to relate to real life moral (and it is perfectly natural) but as Kathleen Kennedy said it does not work exactly like that in SW.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by MyOnlyHope on Tue 5 Apr - 19:27

@BastilaBey wrote:Now I am wondering if this detail has been thrown out just because it seemed like too many people had already bought into Kylo getting redeemed and they want to keep us on our toes. They are totally messing with our heads, this fandom is a roller coaster.
@BastilaBey
Doubt it. People wanted to know what the ashes were about. A lot of people just assumed they were Vader's. J.J crushed that rumour by offering up an explanation.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Gemini on Tue 5 Apr - 19:42

The man is a villain when we first meet him. When we first meet him he slices down an old man and murders a bunch of villagers. TFA is supposed to be the moment this all changes, theres a reason why TFA isnt starting with Ren turning evil and killing a bunch of kids. We catch him when he's starting to be pulled to the light again...him having a bunch of ashes of his enemies is Kylo PRE TFA
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by creepi0 on Tue 5 Apr - 19:47

It seem bit odd as JJ said Kylo keeping an ashes of enemy he killed. He killed Lor San Tekka but he didnt cremated him. It will more make sense if it was Vader ashes.

Kylo characterization and look pretty much like dark version of Templar Knight. I remember read somewhere that Templar Knight collecting an ashes of the fellow knight that dead as a martyr as a relic. If the ashes really from a person that he killed it might have something personal to him.

Maybe someone who betrayed him. Maybe when somebody spreading information that Luke is son of Darth Vader , Luke jedi order might have same situation with the Templar knight when they accused of religious heresy to the point that lead to it destruction but i think better not read too much into it. JJ might be made that up and the film probably never addressed whose ashes it is
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by vaderito on Tue 5 Apr - 20:05

LOL, some people are so upset about this, they want to leave fandom.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by AnneNeville on Tue 5 Apr - 20:06

It was a cool idea from the design period that made it onto set, but when they tried to incorporate it it didn't work they way they wanted. So they tried to find a way to keep the cool shot.

It coudn't work the way they had originally wanted 1) because they had no way of communicating save via press interview that "these are the ashes of Kylo's enemies!" (so they wouldn't have been to any viewer) and 2) because the actor's face/character was already so damn sympathetic they had to redo those scenes with the mask on.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by MissG on Tue 5 Apr - 20:07

I think everybody needs to calm down, I didn't even blink an eye when I read that info, seen worse villains redeemed.

Also as a couple of people pointed out "enemies" could be anything, even objects and JJ being his usual self is toying with the fans with his words.

Besides it's not all of his victims, it's definitely enemies, otherwise he'd take Lor San Tekka and Han.

That said I find it quite interesting that Reylo hasn't had a bad day since the movie came out, yet plenty of ambiguous comments on Kylo's redemption, where might it all lead...
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by IoJovi on Tue 5 Apr - 20:07

@vaderito wrote:LOL, some people are so upset about this, they want to leave fandom.
@vaderito

I do think the reaction to this is a bit overblown. No way in hell am I going to stop shipping Reylo over this - not in light of EVERYTHING ELSE that we've found over the past two weeks.

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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Gemini on Tue 5 Apr - 20:08

As I said in a different place, those are hardly any ashes at all. Its probably the enemies he killed and saw it as a triumph and its probably from when he first became Kylo Ren..he is clinging onto keepsakes from the past. He is a clinger. He needs things like his mask, vaders helmet and those ashes to root him in the dark side..it says so much about him and his insecurity I cant even express that enough.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Sylvia Snow on Tue 5 Apr - 20:09

Don't know how this will be relevant but one of the legend about pandas are that they used to have white furs but upon a death of a shepherdess while she trying to protect one of the panda cub from a leopard, the pandas moaned her death and covers their hands, eyes, ears by her ashes for memorial and as they hugged each other the ashes spread all over their bodies but the pandas never wash it away in order to remember her. So could it be that Kylo keep his enemies ashes as a way to...memorial them...or as a reminder for his sins. He did not collect ashes at the beginning of the movie so those ashes could be when Snoke still training him and he was force to kill or being killed. 

Thought I wouldn't believe what JJ said, he already have a reputation for throwing out misleading information
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