Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by SanghaRen on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 8:12 am

@Reynak

I am not sure if you were also answering to me, maybe (?) Or maybe not. Anyhow, I will quickly jump in. I understand your frustration. When it comes to Finn, I think that we all share it. I also would like to see more depth. I much preferred the "you don't know the FO as I know it" Finn in Maz's castle as the "that's a hell of a pilot" Finn which to me sounded as very out there (standing in the middle of a raging war and screaming out in excitement like a child -> Uh?). But I also think, that as mentioned by @SoloSideCousin, JJ is not entirely at fault here and was not given enough time to finetune. I can see how LF is pretty much hoping to make big bucks out of books and whatever other produts they can launch. So my guess is that they did not care that much if one character was a bit "sacrificed" and reduced to comic relief in the movie. They could always pick it up through books.

I don’t know maybe it’s because it’s Friday afternoon and it’s not raining and the sun is shining – although that also means that my hay fever is worse again – but I feel more positive towards TFA today. I think that I digested that AshGate thing and it actually sobered me up a bit. I feel like I should give a hug to JJ and thank him for that Very Happy. In the past weeks, I was so focused on trying to dissect the movie reading all the theories here, that I kind of lost the enjoyment part of it. The AshGate thing made me realize that in spite of all our theories, we could also be out for surprises and that I should maybe enjoy the ride a bit more rather than the destination.

I love Mad Max Fury Road. It's up there now in my Top 10 movies. I cannot talk about the movie with most people around me because you have either the group that did not get it and just see it as another violent movie or the one that glorifies it as a super feminist testimonial. I was really irked by the whole feminist talk and I was happy that I had gone into the movie not knowing about it. People just jump to one conclusion and cling to it like it's a matter of life or death. I am not saying that the movie has not some feminist connotation but I just saw characters that had all been deeply hurt and were trying to survive whether man or woman in a f***ed up world which looks somehow familiar (sarcasm). And to me the "beauty" of this raw survival movie showing what the world could be like tomorrow if we don't start thinking a bit more about the consequences of our actions just got reduced to Furiosa = feminist flag. George Hamilton did a great job with the movie, but part of the audience just walked by the main messages and saw what they wanted to see. That is the way it is. That is human nature. Clinging to the old ways, the known path - yes, feminism is a knowner path as everything dealing with environmental issues for most people.

Kylo is not a known path. He is a misfit in the SW movies. And this is difficult to register for most people who then either ignore his complexity or reject it. Even when, in 2-4 years, Kylo is redeemed and most people have accepted the idea and even cheered for it, they will also probably not remember that once upon a time they actually could not even fathom the idea of his redemption and just wanted him to rot in hell.

Ok, that post was actually meant to be shorter. Ramblings of a Friday afternoon. I am craving for a Soy Latte now. Why hasn't Starbucks by the way jumped on the SW stuff? No Kylo Ren mug. At least, not in Germany. Maybe better so. I already have enough mugs.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by guardienne on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 9:03 am

@reynak there will always be people who 'don't get it'. you are wonderfully invested and i don't want to sound patronising to you at all.

if people don't accept kylo ren as a legit 'baby' of jj's, that's their thing, let them. ashgate or no ashgate, even before a percentage of people believed he's a psychopath or whatever.
i agree that his actions are contextualised.

it's ok to me, i feel that some of us are attuned to the character in ways that are unfathomable to them, in ways that they don't want to be attuned to someone who does horrible things. and we bring sex into it. we are doing a kind of rundown of taboos, we are engaging with someone who is clearly very damaged and at odds with himself and we want that person to be better because we are an optimistic bunch and we think that people can be helped and that they can be loved.

i don't know about writers betraying their characters like that, i'm not into HP or anything like that, i'm trying to ignore these things largely because i find a lot of interviews so inane. they need to 'get' something out of the writer or director when what i'm interested in is somethign more elusive, not answers, but the intangible stuff of, why are you writing like you are writing. that is beautiful to me but most interviews don't cover that kind of thing, they cover 'facts'. just like adam driver gets asked again and again about his sexiness (not that it's wrong) and stuff. it only tells me about how much he wants to wriggle out of the question.

if there is something behind the ashes and jj has now spilled it, great. i did wonder about it. and i don't find it much creepier than having vader's mask there, actually, it jsut sort of seems to go with the theme of death in his quarters. it's not nice but then he's not a nice and cuddly guy, or else this is what he aims to project.

anyway, yadayada. it's going to be ok, we've got to trust them that whatever is going to happen is going to happen with some intelligence.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Reynak on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 9:16 am

@SanghaRen
I was answering to eveybody who were taking part in the conversation about Ashgate and the things that work or not in the movie. I agree that it is damn good and I loved it, I agree with all of you on that. I loved it so much that things like the Ashes comment bothered me more than it should. I had to try and make it make sense to me in a way that stays in tune with how I perceice a character and after a few crazy days I think I have managed to do that, but I'd prefer the director not to talk about their origin or explain what they meant in the story otherwise.

Anyway, Friday afternoon and after a week of ineresting discussions her, where people see further into the story told than most. I'm happy to have found all of you.
Enjoy your weekend, everybody! Smile
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by guardienne on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 9:43 am

@sangharen as much as i hate starbucks, but i would so buy their kylo ren mug!!!

also, group hug for furiosa and max Very Happy
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 9:59 am

Honestly, our major problem—all of us—is that we're almost seeing too far ahead. Most of us happened to be people who understood storytelling or film from an academic perspective. The antis would say "don't make the story/characters into archetypes"... but that's not how it works. Certain archetypes exist in stories like this because they "work", but the best storytellers are the ones who take the archetypes and mix them up, creating something that is a combination of old and new in the process.

I feel like we were seeing so far ahead, some of us actually forgot who Kylo is right now. I can see how he needs to develop in order for this Trilogy to make any narrative sense, but Kylo isn't that character yet. He's "unfinished and unpolished", as his garbs suggest. He seems to exist on sort of a balance, with one end always teetering toward either Dark or Light. He's currently very far in the Dark, but as the focal point of both, he simply cannot develop without eventually teetering in the other direction. There is a perfect medium for him, and he has to accept that he can never be all Light or all Dark. He needs to become who he was born to be.

Some of us rightfully assume that there is more to the massacre story, that there is more to Han and Leia's neglect, more to Snoke's influence, more to Luke's exile. These are all set-pieces that are 100% going to end up being true, but as of right now the general audience—and indeed, the antis—simply don't see this. They don't look at dialogue and imagine what it'll mean in four years. They just take it for what it is.

I watched the movie with my mother again last night, and I couldn't help but notice that the camera pans over only Rey's face when Han is telling the story of the Jedi Killer, about how "one boy destroyed everything". Just the same, the camera focuses only on Finn's face when Maz is talking about the "fight against the First Order". Even something as simple as this is foreshadowing. Rey's destiny is with the Jedi Killer, Finn's is with the First Order.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by BastilaBey on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 10:58 am

@frolickingfizzgig You are right, we are told we're looking too much into things but you have to in order to make predictions about where a story will go when you only have the first piece. The biggest misunderstanding seems to be that when we say Kylo Ren will be redeemed, that must mean that we are glossing over his crimes. That we don't understand the magnitude of what killing Han means. Another problem is that a lot of people watch the film without contextualizing it as the beginning of a narrative. Patricide, particularly in the Star Wars universe, has to be just about the worst thing a character can do. And that, to me, is the biggest clue in regards to Ren's character arc. The writers are just not going to have the son of their most beloved ot character murder him in the first of a trilogy, to then not learn and grow from it. When others say it's that act that means he can never redeemed, they must not be looking at it as a story, they must be perceiving him as a real person.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Reynak on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 11:15 am

She knew she should be angry,but she wasn't.It took until that night,until she was sitting on her blankets,punching the lanes out of a battered Stormtrooper helmet,for her to understand why.It had aways been an issue of trust,but never with Devi and Strunk.It had been about trusting herself.Devi and Strunk had wanted the one thing that Rey absolutely hadn't;they'd even told her right from the start.But she hadn't listened. She hadn't heard them,because it was the one thing Rey never allowed herself to consider.They wanted to leave.But Ret had to stay. At least until they came back for her.If she left,her parents would have no way of finding her."

This reminds me of Ben again, Ben who is as unable to leave just like Rey. Perhaps he wished for years someone, especially Han, came back for him while Snoke was setting siege on his mind and when at last he came he said:

Han Solo, I've been waiting for this day for a long time.

So afraid to leave, both of them, but her family never came back and his came for him too late. But I prefer to believe Han set the basis for his rebirth, like @FrolickingFizzgig explains in her awesome meta. Rey found a reason to leave and then move forward. As their lives seem uncanningly parallel he will also find his reason to leave Snoke and the FO. But he will need help because he is trapped like the Beast in the fairy tale. Some say Rey should respect her agency and not help him but she also needed help to leave Jakku (Finn, Han, Maz, Chewie). Why is it so wrong to help someone who is trapped? And she wasn't exactly a prisoner while he is enslaved by Snoke and he doesn't realise. He was and still is abused but too many people want Rey to put him down like a rabid dog. How sad is this?

I wouldn't be surprised if the movies end up showing a different image of Rey, where we discover she has killed before or does it later which may make people reconsider how much they can forgive a favourite character and how fair it is to condemn a man who never had a chance forgetting how much he goes through and how he came to be where he is now and how he is now.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Darth Dingbat on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 11:39 am

[quote="Reynak"]

I wouldn't be surprised if the movies end up showing a different image of Rey, where we discover she has killed before or does it later which may make people reconsider how much they can forgive a favourite character and how fair it is to condemn a man who never had a chance forgetting how much he goes through and how he came to be where he is now and how he is now.
@Reynak

I sometimes wonder if Rey is going to have her "Tusken Raiders" moment when she discovers what has happened to her family. I honestly believe her family is going to be her pull to the Dark Side, one way or another - either because they're DS themselves or to avenge them... or both.

She was prepared to kill Kylo for having killed Han, whom she'd only just met. Imagine what her feelings would be if she found out that somebody (or several somebodies) have killed the family she spent about 15 years waiting. I don't think her unwavering loyalty to the memory of that family was stressed for no reason.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by vaderito on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 12:08 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Honestly, our major problem—all of us—is that we're almost seeing too far ahead. Most of us happened to be people who understood storytelling or film from an academic perspective. The antis would say "don't make the story/characters into archetypes"... but that's not how it works. Certain archetypes exist in stories like this because they "work", but the best storytellers are the ones who take the archetypes and mix them up, creating something that is a combination of old and new in the process.

I feel like we were seeing so far ahead, some of us actually forgot who Kylo is right now. I can see how he needs to develop in order for this Trilogy to make any narrative sense, but Kylo isn't that character yet. He's "unfinished and unpolished", as his garbs suggest. He seems to exist on sort of a balance, with one end always teetering toward either Dark or Light. He's currently very far in the Dark, but as the focal point of both, he simply cannot develop without eventually teetering in the other direction. There is a perfect medium for him, and he has to accept that he can never be all Light or all Dark. He needs to become who he was born to be.

Some of us rightfully assume that there is more to the massacre story, that there is more to Han and Leia's neglect, more to Snoke's influence, more to Luke's exile. These are all set-pieces that are 100% going to end up being true, but as of right now the general audience—and indeed, the antis—simply don't see this. They don't look at dialogue and imagine what it'll mean in four years. They just take it for what it is.

I watched the movie with my mother again last night, and I couldn't help but notice that the camera pans over only Rey's face when Han is telling the story of the Jedi Killer, about how "one boy destroyed everything". Just the same, the camera focuses only on Finn's face when Maz is talking about the "fight against the First Order". Even something as simple as this is foreshadowing. Rey's destiny is with the Jedi Killer, Finn's is with the First Order.
@FrolickingFizzgig

It's always been that way.  Approves

Anyway, antis can say whatever they want about Rey's agency. Great heroes, especially in SW, are measured by their capacity for compassion to those that don't ignite anyone's compassion. So it is written that she will help Ben Solo.

Oh, and there won't be any Tusken raiders moment for Rey. There may be sanitized version where she kills only armed men but women and kids are out of question, people. And now that you are at "her family was killed and couldn't come back for her". be careful what you wish. There's no point to invent some random killer. it's going to be either Kylo or no one. Not that he knew they were his parents, but, you know, he killed people and they happened to be among them. if they take that route you should expect such "shocker".
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Guest on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 12:12 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Honestly, our major problem—all of us—is that we're almost seeing too far ahead. Most of us happened to be people who understood storytelling or film from an academic perspective. The antis would say "don't make the story/characters into archetypes"... but that's not how it works. Certain archetypes exist in stories like this because they "work", but the best storytellers are the ones who take the archetypes and mix them up, creating something that is a combination of old and new in the process.

I feel like we were seeing so far ahead, some of us actually forgot who Kylo is right now. I can see how he needs to develop in order for this Trilogy to make any narrative sense, but Kylo isn't that character yet. He's "unfinished and unpolished", as his garbs suggest. He seems to exist on sort of a balance, with one end always teetering toward either Dark or Light. He's currently very far in the Dark, but as the focal point of both, he simply cannot develop without eventually teetering in the other direction. There is a perfect medium for him, and he has to accept that he can never be all Light or all Dark. He needs to become who he was born to be.

Some of us rightfully assume that there is more to the massacre story, that there is more to Han and Leia's neglect, more to Snoke's influence, more to Luke's exile. These are all set-pieces that are 100% going to end up being true, but as of right now the general audience—and indeed, the antis—simply don't see this. They don't look at dialogue and imagine what it'll mean in four years. They just take it for what it is.

I watched the movie with my mother again last night, and I couldn't help but notice that the camera pans over only Rey's face when Han is telling the story of the Jedi Killer, about how "one boy destroyed everything". Just the same, the camera focuses only on Finn's face when Maz is talking about the "fight against the First Order". Even something as simple as this is foreshadowing. Rey's destiny is with the Jedi Killer, Finn's is with the First Order.
@FrolickingFizzgig

It's always been that way.

Anyway, antis can say whatever they want about Rey's agency. Great heroes, especially in SW, are measured by their capacity for compassion to those that don't ignite anyone's compassion. So it is written that she will help Ben Solo.

Oh, and there won't be any Tusken raiders moment for Rey. There may be sanitized version where she kills only armed men but women and kids are out of question, people. And now that you are at "her family was killed and couldn't come back for her". be careful what you wish. There's no point to invent some random killer. it's going to be either Kylo or no one.
@vaderito

Now I'm suddenly predicting this: "Hello. Hello, My name is Rey Montoya. You killed my family, prepare to die."

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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Darth Dingbat on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 12:15 pm

@vaderito: Well, if they take that route, then Reylo isn't happening, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not really wishing for anything, nor do I actually imagine a full-blown "Tusken Raiders moment" - more like the temptation of one. But don't forget that Rey's family may just as easily have been killed by the Republic, if they happened to be on the wrong side.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Darth Dingbat on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 12:16 pm

DP, sorry.


Last edited by Darth Dingbat on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by vaderito on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 12:16 pm

I'd personally find it OTT that he killed them but I can't discount possibility that they go there. I mean, what can be darker from Rey's POV than Han slaying? He won't kill Leia and Luke and nobody cares for faceless redshirts. So next worst thing for her (and she's a stand in for viewers) is finding out that he killed her family and that is why they couldn't return to her. And that may be a reveal after she starts feeling compassion for him. To spice things up.

But what works against it is Kylo's age. he was 15. So unless family waited for years somewhere and than got killed, it's hard to imagine very young teen Kylo going on murderous rampage all over the galaxy and killing them shortly after they dropped their 5 years old. That would stretch credibility considerably.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Kessel on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 1:42 pm

If the story/twist is that Kylo killed Rey's family and dumped her on Jakku, we can kiss Reylo AND redemption good bye. Also, I don't understand the point, (narratively speaking), in having Kylo be the one who killed Rey's family. She already hates him and he already killed her 'father figure.' He's already a monster to her. That would just make him more of a monster to the audience. I've seen people in that other forum suggest that maybe the warrior Kylo stabs in the back is Rey's father; if that were the case, that would be really bad news. I can't see the writers going there, also I believe Kylo's age makes it highly unlikely, if not impossible.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by vaderito on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 1:50 pm

Kessel89 wrote:If the story/twist is that Kylo killed Rey's family and dumped her on Jakku, we can kiss Reylo AND redemption good bye. Also, I don't understand the point, (narratively speaking), in having Kylo be the one who killed Rey's family. She already hates him and he already killed her 'father figure.' He's already a monster to her. That would just make him more of a monster to the audience. I've seen people in that other forum suggest that maybe the warrior Kylo stabs in the back is Rey's father; if that were the case, that would be really bad news. I can't see the writers going there, also I believe Kylo's age makes it highly unlikely, if not impossible.
@Kessel89

He was 15 so very tough for him to dump her on Jakku. I'm saying that there are huge credibility issues with this scenario because he was so young and unlikely running around doing bad sith. We don't know what his first kill was anyway. Jedi students? Someone else?

But anyway, my point is that AshGate shows how tough Reylo ship is. There's always something looming over it, some threat of undisclosed atrocity, because 1/2 of the ship is a bad guy. And lets be honest, movies don't care about plotholes and continuity, etc. They make stuff up as they go.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 2:30 pm

@vaderito wrote:I'd personally find it OTT that he killed them but I can't discount possibility that they go there. I mean, what can be darker from Rey's POV than Han slaying? He won't kill Leia and Luke and nobody cares for faceless redshirts. So next worst thing for her (and she's a stand in for viewers) is finding out that he killed her family and that is why they couldn't return to her. And that may be a reveal after she starts feeling compassion for him. To spice things up.

But what works against it is Kylo's age. he was 15. So unless family waited for years somewhere and than got killed, it's hard to imagine very young teen Kylo going on murderous rampage all over the galaxy and killing them shortly after they dropped their 5 years old. That would stretch credibility considerably.
@vaderito
The timeline doesn't make sense. Remember that Rey's abandonment and the massacre happened years apart. Rey's family would have had to abandon her, then disappear for some reason for several years, then be murdered by Kylo for another reason years later. It's convoluted and doesn't work in favour of good storytelling at all. Too many "reasons".
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by vaderito on Fri 08 Apr 2016, 2:34 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@vaderito
The timeline doesn't make sense. Remember that Rey's abandonment and the massacre happened years apart. Rey's family would have had to abandon her, then disappear for some reason for several years, then be murdered by Kylo for another reason years later. It's convoluted and doesn't work in favour of good storytelling at all. Too many "reasons".
@FrolickingFizzgig

Agreed, convoluted, doesn't work in favor of good storytelling, too many reasons...just like Rey Skywalker. Anything that requires too much exposition is not going to happen.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by The Summer Lady on Fri 22 Apr 2016, 3:24 pm

Why does anyone keep hold of ashes? Most people feel that the remains of a person still hold a fragment of that person's being, and therefore treat them as sacred. KR's not exactly got them in an urn on the mantlepiece, but rather in a tray to plonk his helmet on, symbolically showing (to himself) his ruthlessness and power, and possibly to help make him feel more dominant and invincible.

It could also be he's symbolically recharging his helmet with the evil that is perpetrated in its name, perhaps for the same reason as above, or possibly even to help maintain the cleave in his personality between evil he does and who he knows he really is on the inside (deeply locked away at the moment). This is an idea that appeals to me as all these 'crutches' he seems to need to maintain his Mr Evil personality contrast nicely with the sheer emotion, upset and vulnerability that spills out of him involuntarity in certain key scenes in the movie.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by panki on Fri 22 Apr 2016, 4:35 pm

I doubt Kylo had anything to do with Rey's parents abandoning her or their supposed death....I'm more inclined to believe Rey's story is a lot like Jarael's story...where she is part of some strong jedi/sith bloodline.....and might even be part of some training (her battle dress when she was abandoned)....escapes getting killed by the FO, someone in the FO finds her and instead of helping her, hands her over to Unkar Plutt (I am guessing that will turn out to be someone like Phasma).

Kylo's ash collection might be what he picked up when the jedi temple burned down and he keeps it to remember what happened, whether for good or bad... I can't imagine him killing people, incinerating them and housekeeping stormies re-filling the box every week or so...

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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Xylo Ren on Fri 22 Apr 2016, 5:16 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Honestly, our major problem—all of us—is that we're almost seeing too far ahead. Most of us happened to be people who understood storytelling or film from an academic perspective. The antis would say "don't make the story/characters into archetypes"... but that's not how it works. Certain archetypes exist in stories like this because they "work", but the best storytellers are the ones who take the archetypes and mix them up, creating something that is a combination of old and new in the process.

I feel like we were seeing so far ahead, some of us actually forgot who Kylo is right now. I can see how he needs to develop in order for this Trilogy to make any narrative sense, but Kylo isn't that character yet. He's "unfinished and unpolished", as his garbs suggest. He seems to exist on sort of a balance, with one end always teetering toward either Dark or Light. He's currently very far in the Dark, but as the focal point of both, he simply cannot develop without eventually teetering in the other direction. There is a perfect medium for him, and he has to accept that he can never be all Light or all Dark. He needs to become who he was born to be.

Some of us rightfully assume that there is more to the massacre story, that there is more to Han and Leia's neglect, more to Snoke's influence, more to Luke's exile. These are all set-pieces that are 100% going to end up being true, but as of right now the general audience—and indeed, the antis—simply don't see this. They don't look at dialogue and imagine what it'll mean in four years. They just take it for what it is.

I watched the movie with my mother again last night, and I couldn't help but notice that the camera pans over only Rey's face when Han is telling the story of the Jedi Killer, about how "one boy destroyed everything". Just the same, the camera focuses only on Finn's face when Maz is talking about the "fight against the First Order". Even something as simple as this is foreshadowing. Rey's destiny is with the Jedi Killer, Finn's is with the First Order.

I agree with this. I think we walk a cautious line and we must not romanticize Ren into something he's not. We see the potential and we see the direction of narrative, but only because we've taken the time to discuss it here. If I had never entered a Reylo forum, I wouldn't have all of these tropes floating around in my mind. Others don't because they don't invest the same time or have the same analyses. It was hard rewatching TFA with my mom just now because she kept saying Kylo Ren was evil and bad. Well, I didn't mention Reylo...but I did ask her to watch the movie with a different set of "goggles" this time. I told her to notice how put together, formidable and 1 dimensional he was in the first scene. I then told her to compare it to where we see him at the end. When it was all done, she definitely agreed that he had unraveled. He fell apart. She also thinks that when he said "I will not be seduced" that is an automatic given that he will be. She doesn't like him though, because of the patricide. Like I said, not easy to watch it with her, tbh. But she is one that will be open to anything they present to us as long as it's good and convincing.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 09 Jul 2016, 12:33 am

Hi, I'm new here so bear with me...
There was a rumour recently that it was Luke who killed Rey's parents, that they were Darksiders. This actually would explain a lot of things - why Luke looked so distressed when Rey confronted him, and also the other rumour that Kylo informs Rey of something that angers Luke. Of course these, like other rumours, must be taken with a very large helping of salt, but I think Rey will learn something that might just turn her against the 'good guys', just like Vader's revelation to Luke that he was his father put Luke in a terrible position. Kylo has already done something terrible in Rey's mind - I think it will go the other way in Episode VIII.
Just a thought.
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Lily Snape on Sat 09 Jul 2016, 1:01 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Hi, I'm new here so bear with me...
There was a rumour recently that it was Luke who killed Rey's parents, that they were Darksiders. This actually would explain a lot of things - why Luke looked so distressed when Rey confronted him, and also the other rumour that Kylo informs Rey of something that angers Luke. Of course these, like other rumours, must be taken with a very large helping of salt, but I think Rey will learn something that might just turn her against the 'good guys', just like Vader's revelation to Luke that he was his father put Luke in a terrible position. Kylo has already done something terrible in Rey's mind - I think it will go the other way in Episode VIII.
Just a thought.
@motherofpearl1

I've heard that rumor, too-- I think it may just be a fan theory or a questionable spoiler, but it's one that would make a great deal of sense and a great story. Depending on Rey's reaction, it could lead to her having some very dark moments, or a better understanding of Kylo-- or, if she overcomes it, a position from which she could both understand Kylo and tell him off for giving in to the Dark side. I mean, having Vader (who returned to the Light and gave his life to do so) as a grandfather would kind of pale in comparison to, say, Palpatine. I think the hardest part for her would probably be if Luke killed her parents but had a good reason for it. What if they were assassins or something like that? Do you forgive the murderer of your parents if your parents were doing something terrible? So many possibilities. Smile
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Kessel on Sat 09 Jul 2016, 3:42 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Hi, I'm new here so bear with me...
There was a rumour recently that it was Luke who killed Rey's parents, that they were Darksiders. This actually would explain a lot of things - why Luke looked so distressed when Rey confronted him, and also the other rumour that Kylo informs Rey of something that angers Luke. Of course these, like other rumours, must be taken with a very large helping of salt, but I think Rey will learn something that might just turn her against the 'good guys', just like Vader's revelation to Luke that he was his father put Luke in a terrible position. Kylo has already done something terrible in Rey's mind - I think it will go the other way in Episode VIII.
Just a thought.
@motherofpearl1

I don't know what to make of the Luke killed Rey's parents rumor. In a way, I don't exactly like it because I have a hard time seeing Luke killing others like that and it adds darkness to his character. However, at the same time, I can also see how it could really create the dramatic narrative and twist that could make a really compelling story and unique dynamic between Rey and Luke, and Rey and Kylo. Especially if Luke had no choice in the scenario because he was in danger or being attacked by Rey's parents (and their group).

At any rate, I definitely agree with the bolded. I think whatever happens in the next episode, the story is going to involve Rey's perception of Kylo being challenged in some very important and unexpected way. Otherwise, there's no real development or dramatic tension in the story. If Rey just keeps hating him, that's too easy (and extremely boring and predictable).

Btw, welcome! Smile
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 09 Jul 2016, 5:44 am

Kessel89 wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Hi, I'm new here so bear with me...
There was a rumour recently that it was Luke who killed Rey's parents, that they were Darksiders. This actually would explain a lot of things - why Luke looked so distressed when Rey confronted him, and also the other rumour that Kylo informs Rey of something that angers Luke. Of course these, like other rumours, must be taken with a very large helping of salt, but I think Rey will learn something that might just turn her against the 'good guys', just like Vader's revelation to Luke that he was his father put Luke in a terrible position. Kylo has already done something terrible in Rey's mind - I think it will go the other way in Episode VIII.
Just a thought.
@motherofpearl1

I don't know what to make of the Luke killed Rey's parents rumor. In a way, I don't exactly like it because I have a hard time seeing Luke killing others like that and it adds darkness to his character. However, at the same time, I can also see how it could really create the dramatic narrative and twist that could make a really compelling story and unique dynamic between Rey and Luke, and Rey and Kylo. Especially if Luke had no choice in the scenario because he was in danger or being attacked by Rey's parents (and their group).

At any rate, I definitely agree with the bolded. I think whatever happens in the next episode, the story is going to involve Rey's perception of Kylo being challenged in some very important and unexpected way. Otherwise, there's no real development or dramatic tension in the story. If Rey just keeps hating him, that's too easy (and extremely boring and predictable).

Btw, welcome! Smile
@Kessel89

Thanks!#
I don't like the idea of Luke killing anyone either - but he is a warrior of course, and if he had no choice and was defending himself, yes I can see that.
I also had another thought....in all likelihood complete and utter rubbish....what if Rey was spirited away to Jakku by a teenage Ben because he believed she was next? No way would Luke have done that - but by then Snoke had been whispering in Ben's mind for years, enough to perhaps convince him that Luke would kill a child if he thought she was 'dark'?
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Re: Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Post by Saracene on Sat 09 Jul 2016, 7:02 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Hi, I'm new here so bear with me...
There was a rumour recently that it was Luke who killed Rey's parents, that they were Darksiders. This actually would explain a lot of things - why Luke looked so distressed when Rey confronted him, and also the other rumour that Kylo informs Rey of something that angers Luke. Of course these, like other rumours, must be taken with a very large helping of salt, but I think Rey will learn something that might just turn her against the 'good guys', just like Vader's revelation to Luke that he was his father put Luke in a terrible position. Kylo has already done something terrible in Rey's mind - I think it will go the other way in Episode VIII.
Just a thought.
@motherofpearl1

I very much doubt that they'd go as dark as making Luke the killer of Rey's parents, to be honest, regardless of what the situation might have been. I don't think they're going to mess with the original trio of characters to this extent, and define their relationship with the new protagonist in this manner. Plus that would really transfer a lot of the emotional weight from Rey/Kylo to Rey/Luke.
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