Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by Irina de France on Sat 21 May - 23:10

Okay. I do have a lot of thoughts and feelings on Renperor and Reyempress, so might as well post it here.

I really, REALLY don't think they'll go for Renperor. TFA definitely doesn't set the ground for that. Kylo clearly doesn't have the chops for that, and if that involves him killing Snoke in VIII as one rumor had it, it's going to be a waste. We're going to get Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus all over again, and while I do think Kylo will still be redeemed in the end, we're going to get Vader 2.0 and something like "Tell my mother she was right". Meh.

BUT. This said, I really wouldn't mind if Renperor happened ALONG with Reyempress.

Even then, I still don't think LF is going to go for it in a positive way, because "Deemocracee eez gooode and dictatorsheeep eez baaaad", and you'll have all those SJWs yelling that SW supports fascism (*eyeroll*) since they can't make the difference between a fantasy story (because that's what SW is, despite the sci-fi tag) and real life. Anyway, it's not like monarchy is a bad thing necessarily, it all depends on the context, but I'm not going to start a political debate here.

The trilogy *could* end with Rey and Kylo being Dark Side rulers, which would open options for a new trilogy. But I don't think they'll be going for that. Like, really not.

But I am among those fans who theorize Rey is Palpatine's descendant/has Dark Side origins, so you could seriously do something with that. It's really a detail, but I do find it very interesting that people who meet her seem to instantly take a liking to her (Finn, Han, Chewie, Kylo, Leia, and so on and so forth). She has charisma, she's grounded, and with some development, she could be pretty believable as some sort of ruler.

And hey, I think everyone can see the appeal with Kylo and Rey ruling over the galaxy, and I'm certainly not insensitive to it.

I think fanfic-wise, it could give a very interesting AU, whether Renperor and Reyempress are Dark Side or rather morally grey, and I would certainly read it. I'm actually surprised there aren't any, since I will confess I tried finding some on AO3 (for some reason, all Reyempress fics are Reyux or Reylux? Like, no offense, but Emperor Hux more or less makes sense to me. Sure, he's sure as hell power-hungry, but he strikes me more as the Tarkin/Thrawn kind of guy than the Palpatine one. He's not even Force-sensitive!).

Someone please write one? XD
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 21 May - 23:16

CienaRee wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
Kessel89 wrote:I am ultimately a redemptionist and that's where I see the story going, but I totally understand the appeal of Renperor because it would be interesting to see Kylo kill Snoke, take control of everything and become this awesome and powerful emperor, something Anakin could never do; not as a dark sider, but as a grey character. Also yes, Renperor is kind of hot. But I feel Star Wars would never do this.  If Kylo becomes the Renperor, I can't see him being allowed to "carry on." Reylo would not happen and he would remain a villian and be killed off.  

Anyway, everyone here saw this foreshadowing and potential between Rey and Kylo in TFA. We know how amazing this story can be based on their dynamic. At the end of the day, I just want a good story, but I really feel a good story involves Rey and Kylo developing their relationship, overcoming each other and ultimately finding themselves in each other. I don't even know what that will look like, but in Star Wars it can't happen with an unredeemed evil Kylo.
@Kessel89

I'm a total Redemptionist.  I'll say it here and now.  Kylo and where he goes is more important to me than where Rey goes or even Reylo.  I am all about redemption, and I think Kylo having a leadership position (let's not call it Renperor) during a transition or he becomes a leader on some backwoods world during exile in Episode X and beyond could be amazing.  I just hate the idea of him completely capitulating to the Resistance, because frankly, IMO, that side has its problems too.  Bad as he has acted, he could represent that Ransolm POV from Bloodline at some point, which is a legitimate viewpoint.  I want him to be Ronin or Rogue or his own guy.  Being a Jedi is not his own guy, neither is being Snoke's puppet.  He's not his mother in this absolute believer in the Rebellion/Resistance/Some vague vision of "the way the Republic should be" either.  Bloodline says he doesn't want to be a royal figure, even though he has the chance.  He is just such an interesting character with so many possibilities.  IMO his whole story should not be about just redemption or being worthy of Rey  ... I want him to be who he was supposed to be and was never allowed to be because Luke said his darkness was wrong, his mother sent him away when she couldn't figure him out, his father didn't know what to do with him, and Snoke abused him.  He has that unique force composition for a reason.  They hired one the best actors of his generation to play him.  I want them to do something with that.
@SoloSideCousin

I think even if he doesn't become Renperor the Galaxy needs someone capable of bringing peace and order to it after the chaos she's currently(with how corrupt the new Republic has become as shown by Bloodline I don't think it's as simple as having New Republic 3.0,the problems the previous one had would continue to exist untill someone finds a solution to it and I feel that both the FO and the Resistanse are  not helping things by enaging into war with each other ) in so why can't Kylo and Rey be these people?It would be an interesting storyline and it would give a chance for Kylo to redeem himself.
@CienaRee

These are all interesting thoughts, but I just can't help wondering - can anyone seriously see the GA looking at Renperor as a way for him to "redeem himself"? Renperor = ultimate powah. Even if it's used for "good". I'm trying very hard to imagine a scenario where Kylo is atoning for his crimes by ruling the entire galaxy, and I'm totally failing to imagine one.

And this comes from someone who's a big proponent of the "there's an external threat to the galaxy" and "Kylo is secretly working for the greater good" possibilities. I just can't for the life of me imagine how something like this could be tied to a Renperor plot - nor why it should be.

At any rate, I think I've said this before but the idea of two übermensch Force-sensitives ruling the lesser beings of the galaxy just skeeves me out in a major way.
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by vaderito on Sat 21 May - 23:23

@Darth Dingbat GA doesn't care. It's fanboys that do.

That said, as you say "ultimate powah" is a big no-no for redemption. Refusing ultimate powah, giving his own FS powah to save someone, etc would be a big deal to everyone who's trained that humility = virtue, etc.

@Irina de France No Remperor/Reyempress fics? That's terrible. Idea must be spread. perhaps Fic Challenge? They organize those for time to time.
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 21 May - 23:26

Anyway, if anyone is the true heir to any throne in this trilogy, it's the girl whose name means "king". Razz At most, Kylo will have to content himself with being Prince Consort.
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by CienaRee on Sat 21 May - 23:33

Darth Dingbat wrote:
CienaRee wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
Kessel89 wrote:I am ultimately a redemptionist and that's where I see the story going, but I totally understand the appeal of Renperor because it would be interesting to see Kylo kill Snoke, take control of everything and become this awesome and powerful emperor, something Anakin could never do; not as a dark sider, but as a grey character. Also yes, Renperor is kind of hot. But I feel Star Wars would never do this.  If Kylo becomes the Renperor, I can't see him being allowed to "carry on." Reylo would not happen and he would remain a villian and be killed off.  

Anyway, everyone here saw this foreshadowing and potential between Rey and Kylo in TFA. We know how amazing this story can be based on their dynamic. At the end of the day, I just want a good story, but I really feel a good story involves Rey and Kylo developing their relationship, overcoming each other and ultimately finding themselves in each other. I don't even know what that will look like, but in Star Wars it can't happen with an unredeemed evil Kylo.
@Kessel89

I'm a total Redemptionist.  I'll say it here and now.  Kylo and where he goes is more important to me than where Rey goes or even Reylo.  I am all about redemption, and I think Kylo having a leadership position (let's not call it Renperor) during a transition or he becomes a leader on some backwoods world during exile in Episode X and beyond could be amazing.  I just hate the idea of him completely capitulating to the Resistance, because frankly, IMO, that side has its problems too.  Bad as he has acted, he could represent that Ransolm POV from Bloodline at some point, which is a legitimate viewpoint.  I want him to be Ronin or Rogue or his own guy.  Being a Jedi is not his own guy, neither is being Snoke's puppet.  He's not his mother in this absolute believer in the Rebellion/Resistance/Some vague vision of "the way the Republic should be" either.  Bloodline says he doesn't want to be a royal figure, even though he has the chance.  He is just such an interesting character with so many possibilities.  IMO his whole story should not be about just redemption or being worthy of Rey  ... I want him to be who he was supposed to be and was never allowed to be because Luke said his darkness was wrong, his mother sent him away when she couldn't figure him out, his father didn't know what to do with him, and Snoke abused him.  He has that unique force composition for a reason.  They hired one the best actors of his generation to play him.  I want them to do something with that.
@SoloSideCousin

I think even if he doesn't become Renperor the Galaxy needs someone capable of bringing peace and order to it after the chaos she's currently(with how corrupt the new Republic has become as shown by Bloodline I don't think it's as simple as having New Republic 3.0,the problems the previous one had would continue to exist untill someone finds a solution to it and I feel that both the FO and the Resistanse are  not helping things by enaging into war with each other ) in so why can't Kylo and Rey be these people?It would be an interesting storyline and it would give a chance for Kylo to redeem himself.
@CienaRee

These are all interesting thoughts, but I just can't help wondering - can anyone seriously see the GA looking at Renperor as a way for him to "redeem himself"? Renperor = ultimate powah. Even if it's used for "good". I'm trying very hard to imagine a scenario where Kylo is atoning for his crimes by ruling the entire galaxy, and I'm totally failing to imagine one.

And this comes from someone who's a big proponent of the "there's an external threat to the galaxy" and "Kylo is secretly working for the greater good" possibilities. I just can't for the life of me imagine how something like this could be tied to a Renperor plot - nor why it should be.

At any rate, I think I've said this before but the idea of two übermensch Force-sensitives ruling the lesser beings of the galaxy just skeeves me out in a major way.
@Darth Dingbat

To be honest it really depends on how it's done I think at the end of the day the GA wants a good story and can see the difference between fantasy and RL(movies like LORT for example still remina hugely popular despite the fact that one of the main heroes becomes king at the end).Personally I think him being some kind of leader who helps stybalzie the state the Galaxy currently is  would be way better than going to exile to atone for his crimes(not that I think it would be a bad idea or anything).
And in the SW galaxy Renperor wouldn't really be such a bad thing.Many people loved Padme as queen of Naboo and Leia is still considered royalty to many people eventhoguh she''s renoucned her title as princess of Alderaan.We really shouldn't make the mistake and think of it in RL terms.

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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by vaderito on Sat 21 May - 23:40

Darth Dingbat wrote:Anyway, if anyone is the true heir to any throne in this trilogy, it's the girl whose name means "king". Razz At most, Kylo will have to content himself with being Prince Consort.
@Darth Dingbat

Ren = Queen Are you sexist? Very Happy
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 21 May - 23:43

vaderito wrote:
Darth Dingbat wrote:Anyway, if anyone is the true heir to any throne in this trilogy, it's the girl whose name means "king". Razz At most, Kylo will have to content himself with being Prince Consort.
@Darth Dingbat

Ren = Queen Are you sexist? Very Happy
@vaderito

Oh, by no means. If Kylo insists on being known as Queen Consort, I won't object at all.
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by Irina de France on Sat 21 May - 23:45

Darth Dingbat wrote:Anyway, if anyone is the true heir to any throne in this trilogy, it's the girl whose name means "king". Razz At most, Kylo will have to content himself with being Prince Consort.
@Darth Dingbat

I think Kylo certainly won't complain. I mean...







I just really like the Knight and Dame Sans Mercy imagery they have. Like a lot. GIVE IT TO ME.
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by vaderito on Sat 21 May - 23:54

Also kneeling before an angel



hence why she's illuminated like she's the light itself. Remember "are you an angel?"
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sun 22 May - 0:11

SoloSideCousin wrote:I think you can be intrigued by Renperor *and* be a Redemptionist.  There are all kinds of ways to make Renperor a part of a longer redemption journey, especially if they go past Episode IX, which I would be shocked if they didn't.  He does not have to become Renperor as part of an evil "I love the powah!!!!" trip.  I think @snufkin's notion of Ren as MacArthur/Shogun is very intriguing.  After all these "true believers", he could be the pragmatic guy who straightens things out for a few years while the galaxy gets its act together government wise.  *Also* having Kylo/Ben walk away from power for the greater good would be the biggest redemption moment of all.  Anakin *never* would have done that sith.  I think Kylo/Ben would.  I'm with @Reynak on this.  I see Kylo/Ben being very burdened about what he thinks he needs to do and his force power in general.  I know not everyone shares that view, but it is an intriguing viewpoint to discuss.  They could do a whole post-WWII/Marshall Plan kind of parallel with it for all we know.  The galaxy certainly seems to need that Marshall Plan outlook, not that forever entrenched enemies outlook, which even Leia still has in Bloodline until she gets to know Ransolm and understand him better.  For all we know Rian Johnson could be inspired by the ways the Allies acted post-WWI and the way things went Post-WWII.  Obviously, Post-WWII was not perfect by any means ... but that punishing by Treaty of Versailles sith went out the window, thank God for all of us.  The Galaxy needs that kind of peacemaking moment ... Kylo, being half-dark/half-light, would be the perfect person for that transition.
@SoloSideCousin

You rang? This is where I repeat my joke that if Rey's with him, that urn with the ashes of his enemies goes out into the garage. The bolded is the big hook they dangled. Besides the usual angst and alienation, what is this mysterious quest he's taken on, which is clearly making him miserable (and doing crap like murdering his father and obsessively chasing after Force Sensitive Scanvenger Girls from Jakku?).
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 22 May - 0:20

Darth Dingbat wrote:Anyway, if anyone is the true heir to any throne in this trilogy, it's the girl whose name means "king". Razz At most, Kylo will have to content himself with being Prince Consort.
@Darth Dingbat

I think he would be totally okay with that too.  The force and his lineage have not been kind to Kylo/Ben.  For goodness sake, I have all kinds of "exile" scenarios in my head where he has had the force taken from him and sometimes he's a leader and sometimes he does something else, all without the force.  But in the Rey as Empress scenario, I could really see him doing a number of things.  He could go a nerdy academic route.  The "quiet advisor to her" route.  The king of all dark side drug counselors.  All kinds of things. He's very versatile. :-)
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by ZenBrainJam on Sun 22 May - 5:30

Darth Dingbat wrote:
CienaRee wrote:@Darth Dingbat

We have two more movies left.Since RJ conrtibuted to the book I exect/hope some of the issues that were presented in the book to appear in the next movie.Plus if Kylo has Rey by his side people might not be so poosed to the idea of him as a ruler.And there's the quote from Collin Treverrow that Rey's very important to the entire Galaxy.
It's not even necessarit for the next emperor/empress to continue through the Skywalker bloodline(though the OT fanboys will be extremly happy if that happened).They can selext new ruler like people on Naboo did.
@CienaRee

Well, in that case the trilogy would take a total U-turn. What I saw in TFA was the beginning of a quest to bring Han and Leia's son back to the Light. A man's journey back to the Light and to life from the total mess his life has become, woven into a larger plot about the Force itself. TFA's focus was emotional, mystical and larger-than-life; there were no hints there of it turning into a Henriad tetralogy meets House of Cards.

Seriously, there seems to be a tendency to forget that dude killed his own father. Do you honestly think they're going to reward the dude who killed his father with an imperial throne? If that happens, it'll just cement him as Darth Caedus and his end will no doubt be just as uplifting.

Not to mention that I would see it as extremely weird if Star Wars suddenly glorified totalitarian regimes. Bloodline shows a tension-filled situation that might easily give rise to a dictatorship. There are historical precedents for that. That doesn't mean a dictatorship actually is - or will be presented as - the right answer to anything. I think anyone who has ever lived under a totalitarian regime could tell you whether they prefer democracy over totalitarianism.
@Darth Dingbat

Totally agree. The solution to a not so efficient republic is not a totalitarian regime. It's not a problem of good emperor vs evil emperor, it's the system itself.
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sun 22 May - 6:31

snufkin wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:I think you can be intrigued by Renperor *and* be a Redemptionist.  There are all kinds of ways to make Renperor a part of a longer redemption journey, especially if they go past Episode IX, which I would be shocked if they didn't.  He does not have to become Renperor as part of an evil "I love the powah!!!!" trip.  I think @snufkin's notion of Ren as MacArthur/Shogun is very intriguing.  After all these "true believers", he could be the pragmatic guy who straightens things out for a few years while the galaxy gets its act together government wise.  *Also* having Kylo/Ben walk away from power for the greater good would be the biggest redemption moment of all.  Anakin *never* would have done that sith.  I think Kylo/Ben would.  I'm with @Reynak on this.  I see Kylo/Ben being very burdened about what he thinks he needs to do and his force power in general.  I know not everyone shares that view, but it is an intriguing viewpoint to discuss.  They could do a whole post-WWII/Marshall Plan kind of parallel with it for all we know.  The galaxy certainly seems to need that Marshall Plan outlook, not that forever entrenched enemies outlook, which even Leia still has in Bloodline until she gets to know Ransolm and understand him better.  For all we know Rian Johnson could be inspired by the ways the Allies acted post-WWI and the way things went Post-WWII.  Obviously, Post-WWII was not perfect by any means ... but that punishing by Treaty of Versailles sith went out the window, thank God for all of us.  The Galaxy needs that kind of peacemaking moment ... Kylo, being half-dark/half-light, would be the perfect person for that transition.
@SoloSideCousin

You rang? This is where I repeat my joke that if Rey's with him, that urn with the ashes of his enemies goes out into the garage. The bolded is the big hook they dangled. Besides the usual angst and alienation, what is this mysterious quest he's taken on, which is clearly making him miserable (and doing crap like murdering his father and obsessively chasing after Force Sensitive Scanvenger Girls from Jakku?).
@snufkin

I agree that Kylo is on some mysterious quest that's making him miserable and making him live in constant denial of his true self. Maybe the object of that mysterious quest of his really is Renperorship, who knows. But where I disagree on Renperor is that I don't see LF making him one or, if it happens, representing it as a positive thing.

@SoloSideCousin, replying to your earlier post: I still think that just because we see him give orders to troops a couple of times (first to destroy a village seemingly for no reason, and second to pull the troops out because he's giddy about finding The Girl, so not exactly stellar leadership moments) doesn't mean that Kylo's story - or the one we saw in TFA anyway - was in any way set up to be about leadership. In fact, if anyone in the film was set up as power-hungry, it was Hux, who was obviously cartoonishly so. Hux and Kylo were shown in contrast in all their shared scenes: Hux was all about pragmatism and order, whereas Kylo was about his mysterious "personal interests" and then about The Girl.

I would buy the idea of Renperor more if there had been even one instance of Kylo showing some strategic thinking, or discussing the political situation, or pondering on the responsibilities and demands of strong leadership. Anything. But we get none. And as far as I can remember, the only time he shows any authority is in the village at the very beginning; all the other moments when he's giving some kind of orders or demands tend to be either extremely low on the authority scale or even played for comic effect. Kylo throws a console-destroying tantrum in front of his underling, Hux thinks he's a son-of-a-b**** and doesn't respect him at all, on Takodana he makes a fool of himself with The Girl, and when he's calling the guards as he's wrecking the interrogation room they quickly nope-nope-nope their way out of the situation instead of obeying him.
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by Reynak on Sun 22 May - 7:12

BastilaBey wrote:I've been thinking about Renperor as a possible path to redemption. If the trilogy ends with Kylo Ren seeking atonement, does that negate him taking over the FO after doing away with Snoke? What if the FO could ever be used as a force for good? It reminds me of Casterfo's views on the Empire in Bloodline. Leia is obviously very against that viewpoint, but in reality the Resistance is just as illegal. They're all imperfect political systems, and if Kylo adjusts his viewpoint he could be a benevolent ruler.

Rian Johnson was involved and it's possible that's for the political landscape context and not just about Ben solo's backstory.
@BastilaBey

For me, empire equals evil, it's a huge problem because I mistrust the idea of a totalitarian government in order to "bring order". This is what all dictators in history have said to justify their attachment to power. They say their country (galaxy in this case) needs them because the citizens are unable to solve their problems for themselves and need a paternalistic figure who knows better to decide for them. I hate all this rubbish with all my heart and have seen how it affected people who lived under these types of regimes for a long time. Many think the tyrants they are suffering as governors are the best option. I really would dislike Renperor and Rey as his "queen" for this reason and think that Leia has always been right in her quest for freedom and always against dictatorial regimes like the Empire and the FO.

The Republic may have become corrupted, because corruption seems unavoidable ( which doesn't mean it shouldn't be fought) whenever power is involved whatever the regime. Authoritarism is hardly a solution for corruption or any other sith. I fear dictatorial goverments more than anything so I can't see Renperor as nothing other than evil. If it is a step to something else while Kylo is still Dark it may work but I don't think his redemption may happen while exerting a twisted form of power.

As for the idea of Rey as an empress herself, how is it better than Renperor? It's just as bad and may only happen, IMO, if she becomes Dark. Some tyrants in history came from the people and were not aristocrats, which would be what would happen with Rey unless she is Palpatine's descendant or something like that.

If Ren becomes Renperor, what gives him the right to rule the galaxy? His heritage, his "superiority"as a FS superman? I really fear this view and would prefer a legitimate ruler,chosen, and not auto-imposed on the galaxy. How can LF and Disney show two FS people, an elitistic minority, ruling over the non-FS majority because they are "better"?

Rey as a heroine or Finn as a hero are refreshing ideas so I can't see why a franchise that has chosen a progressive and more inclusive approach for the saga would in the end go for the supremacy of superior (FS) beings ruling the galaxy for "the greater good". I think this, and not Reylo, would be a horrible model for little kids.


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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by ZenBrainJam on Sun 22 May - 7:21

The fact is FO itself is based upon stolen children trained to become stormtrooper. This for me is a huge problem. If you have really large consensus you don't need to raise children into soldier because adults will join willingly your army and cause like into the resistence. But if you need to raise your army, with indoctrination and all, fantasy or not you can't tell me that your system is for the greater good. The good of who? Of the families without their kids, of the weaker and oppressed of the galaxy, or just your greater good, aka your need and thirst for power?
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 22 May - 8:06

“Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it at his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.”

- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary


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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by panki on Sun 22 May - 8:11

ZenBrainJam wrote:The fact is FO itself is based upon stolen children trained to become stormtrooper. This for me is a huge problem. If you have really large consensus you don't need to raise children into soldier because adults will join willingly your army and cause like into the resistence. But if you need to raise your army, with indoctrination and all, fantasy or not you can't tell me that your system is for the greater good. The good of who? Of the families without their kids, of the weaker and oppressed of the galaxy, or just your greater good, aka your need and thirst for power?
@ZenBrainJam

The FO probably thinks those families are making a small sacrifice for the greater good by "contributing" their children to the FO cause....even most the sith like Palpatine and Dooku went to the dark side because they felt they needed to make the galaxy a better place....when the mind wants to see something a certain way, it will justify all kinds of actions, no matter how terrible...

Speaking of terrible, has anyone else noticed that the alien population in the SW universe has reduced with each succeeding trilogy and now we mostly see humans? In the PT, there were so many around...but I think the Separatists, the Empire and now the FO has wiped out whole planets of species (Geonosians, Lasats, Mahrans etc). No

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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sun 22 May - 8:16

spacebaby45678 wrote:“Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it at his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.”

- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary


@spacebaby45678

Well, yeah, but none of that was actually in the film.

I hope that's not the direction in which the character is going, because I honestly can't see it ending well. And if it happens, I'll continue to insist they set up a completely different kind of conflict in the character in TFA. An emotional and metaphysical one, rather than a practical conflict of gaining power and ruling.

But then, it would just prove to me that TFA really was all over the place with no clear direction and unifying theme for the trilogy at all.
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 22 May - 8:30

Darth Dingbat wrote:
snufkin wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:I think you can be intrigued by Renperor *and* be a Redemptionist.  There are all kinds of ways to make Renperor a part of a longer redemption journey, especially if they go past Episode IX, which I would be shocked if they didn't.  He does not have to become Renperor as part of an evil "I love the powah!!!!" trip.  I think @snufkin's notion of Ren as MacArthur/Shogun is very intriguing.  After all these "true believers", he could be the pragmatic guy who straightens things out for a few years while the galaxy gets its act together government wise.  *Also* having Kylo/Ben walk away from power for the greater good would be the biggest redemption moment of all.  Anakin *never* would have done that sith.  I think Kylo/Ben would.  I'm with @Reynak on this.  I see Kylo/Ben being very burdened about what he thinks he needs to do and his force power in general.  I know not everyone shares that view, but it is an intriguing viewpoint to discuss.  They could do a whole post-WWII/Marshall Plan kind of parallel with it for all we know.  The galaxy certainly seems to need that Marshall Plan outlook, not that forever entrenched enemies outlook, which even Leia still has in Bloodline until she gets to know Ransolm and understand him better.  For all we know Rian Johnson could be inspired by the ways the Allies acted post-WWI and the way things went Post-WWII.  Obviously, Post-WWII was not perfect by any means ... but that punishing by Treaty of Versailles sith went out the window, thank God for all of us.  The Galaxy needs that kind of peacemaking moment ... Kylo, being half-dark/half-light, would be the perfect person for that transition.
@SoloSideCousin

You rang? This is where I repeat my joke that if Rey's with him, that urn with the ashes of his enemies goes out into the garage. The bolded is the big hook they dangled. Besides the usual angst and alienation, what is this mysterious quest he's taken on, which is clearly making him miserable (and doing crap like murdering his father and obsessively chasing after Force Sensitive Scanvenger Girls from Jakku?).
@snufkin

I agree that Kylo is on some mysterious quest that's making him miserable and making him live in constant denial of his true self. Maybe the object of that mysterious quest of his really is Renperorship, who knows. But where I disagree on Renperor is that I don't see LF making him one or, if it happens, representing it as a positive thing.

@SoloSideCousin, replying to your earlier post: I still think that just because we see him give orders to troops a couple of times (first to destroy a village seemingly for no reason, and second to pull the troops out because he's giddy about finding The Girl, so not exactly stellar leadership moments) doesn't mean that Kylo's story - or the one we saw in TFA anyway - was in any way set up to be about leadership. In fact, if anyone in the film was set up as power-hungry, it was Hux, who was obviously cartoonishly so. Hux and Kylo were shown in contrast in all their shared scenes: Hux was all about pragmatism and order, whereas Kylo was about his mysterious "personal interests" and then about The Girl.

I would buy the idea of Renperor more if there had been even one instance of Kylo showing some strategic thinking, or discussing the political situation, or pondering on the responsibilities and demands of strong leadership. Anything. But we get none. And as far as I can remember, the only time he shows any authority is in the village at the very beginning; all the other moments when he's giving some kind of orders or demands tend to be either extremely low on the authority scale or even played for comic effect. Kylo throws a console-destroying tantrum in front of his underling, Hux thinks he's a son-of-a-b**** and doesn't respect him at all, on Takodana he makes a fool of himself with The Girl, and when he's calling the guards as he's wrecking the interrogation room they quickly nope-nope-nope their way out of the situation instead of obeying him.
@Darth Dingbat

I actually never got the impression he was calling those guards.  I thought they were just walking by. I'll have to watch it again.  And I agree that the movie does almost no political set-up for anyone really except Hux.  There was some politics with Leia, but it was cut because I think they were afraid of touching politics because GL did it so badly and they just wanted to bring fans back into the fold for TFA.

That being said I think you misunderstand me.  I actually don't think Ren is particularly power-hungry at all.  I think he needs the darkness/Snoke/the force ... whatever for some larger purpose. I honestly don't think he's looking to be emperor at all.  I don't think that's the Vader mission.  I think it is something much larger than a political position. If Ren because emperor it's going to be because everything is going to he** in a handbasket and he's the last man standing or he needs to take over so Hux doesn't blow up 12 more planets.  Hux is obviously the maniacal guy down to the fire in his blue eyes on the would-be Leni Riefenstahl movie set.  He's a total contrast with Ren and meant to be so.

That being said, I honestly disagree with you on how people in the FO see Ren.  I just don't see everyone in the FO thinking he's like this idiot who deserves no respect.  Hux hates his guts (as Ren hates Hux's guts), but IMO Hux knows he can only go so far with Ren until Snoke starts siding with Hux about blowing up the planets and Hux can throw "the girl" in Ren's face.  Only when Hux has Snoke's backing does he feel protected to really push.  Also, that "I win" smug smile Hux gives to Ren is not a "I have no respect for you" kind of thing IMO.  It's an "I win this time" kind of thing.  If Ren was really so pathetic to Hux he would either give him some nastily piteous look or just act like he barely existed.  Instead, it's like a more sneering, Hux-ish version of "Dad likes me better today! Take that!" Snoke has set these two up as rivals, and I get the feeling Ren has won these little battles a lot in the past.  Hux is part of the chain of command.  Ren is like this guy who can just walk in and start disrupting Hux's business and demanding answers and Hux can't order him around and he can't throw him out ... because whatever Ren is, he usually has Snoke's backing I think.

I also get the feeling that we're supposed to think some of Ren's behavior in TFA is an aberration for him.  He gets off that ship in Jakku like the freaking grim reaper.  Like he's living death in the dark side.  He actually sounds almost bored, like goes on these special ops missions all the time, like he's got these operations and his interrogations down to some efficient dark side science. I get the impression from Poe's interrogation and his bored approach on Jakku that these things tend to work out for him until the events of TFA.  Even Snoke is shocked when Ren can't break through Rey's mind ... because I think he is supposed to be that good with the mind reading.  Poe's no idiot and he broke him the second he chose to.

For me TFA is very much about how the cool operator you first see getting off that ship in Jakku unravels ... and his unraveling is supposed to be notable.  If he screwed up all the time like that, Hux wouldn't have those moments of pause like he does with Ren at the beginning of the movie.  Nor would he be so giddy that "Dad liked his idea" if he thought Ren was so pathetic.  What makes the time period of TFA different IMO, is that the force seems to be stepping in ... and calling the fairly dormant Ben Solo back up to the surface.  It starts with LST reminding him of his family, which IMO, comes into play with Ren letting Finn go, all the way to Ren putting himself totally out there for Rey and being knocked on the ground with his face slashed.  It's like LST picks at a scab and opens a wound and by the end Ren is literally bleeding out.  You could look at this metaphorically where the light side makes a brief appearance when he spares Finn to the light/Ben Solo side is fighting its way through every pore when he worriedly watches Rey across the ravine.  

The novel talks about how Ren has tried to suppress his emotions.  There are obvious reasons for that as shown by TFA.  When he starts feeling too much he can't be that guy who walked off that ship on Jakku.  But that guy on Jakku is not his full self.  It's like an avatar.  The whole Kylo Ren persona is like a suit of armor.  It's a part of him, but it also both buries half of him and protects that half.  I get the impression that Kylo persona was created because I think "weak and foolish" Ben Solo had a history of "feeling too much" ... and probably with all that sensitivity, the tug-of-war between dark and light, and Snoke being the evil whisperer, all that feeling probably hurt like he** and probably makes the whole thought of emotions abhorrent to dark side Ren.  

However, it's like pushing a beach ball under the water in a pool.  You can't keep it there forever and things are going to break through to the surface.  Kylo is not emotionless operator he tries so hard to be.  He's an emotional dude, both dark and light.  And that's where you get the temper. He obviously has some history of losing his temper with staff, based on Lt. Mitaka's reaction to having to break bad news to him, but at the same time people seem to know not to mess with him. (And honestly, I took the console smashing thing in a different light than a lot of people.  I mean if he is in the dark side, he can just coolly kill people who annoy him like Vader did.  I think that when he smashes things up he is so angry and dark side fueled that he probably wants to harm somebody, but there is still enough decency in him that he just doesn't want to go around murdering people all the time, so he actually choose the better alternative of smashing things, not people).

But the way I look at him being a leader is not some evil Palpatine/totalitarian thing that people are seeing.  I see him in that position either because he needs to stop something really bad from happening or because is the last man standing for the FO and he will be the person to negotiate a peace with Leia.  If they continue onward post IX, I could see him running those FO worlds parallel to the Republic worlds during a time of transition and rebuilding post-war, in a pragmatic MacArthur kind of way.  I could see him possibly representing that Ransolm constituency that even after a peace has very little use for Republic worlds.  I could see him setting up something pragmatic and organized and not totalitarian at all and eventually walking away from it as a redemptive act.  More importantly, I see him doing this when he is a lot more straightened out.  When he isn't a slave to warring emotions because he has accepted that he is a dark/light guy and has found a niche for himself force wise in some grey/rogue kind of way.  When his emotional turmoil has settled enough that the intelligence he probably inherited from his family can come out without him trying to suppress part of himself.

I honestly doubt that they are ever going to do anything where he runs everything (Republic and FO places).  I really don't see him as some conquering emperor trying to take over more territories at all.  At most I see him having the governance of current FO territories , and I doubt he would really want the job at all.  It would be like some horrible life chore thrown in his lap.  He's not Palpatine.  He's not Vader.  He's not even close.  If they did the full-on emperor, he'd probably give it to Rey or walk away at some point.

I like thinking about the "gets the FO worlds thrown in his lap" option because I like politics and stories of pragmatic rulers are interesting to me and Kylo being a grey ruler would make for a very interesting storyline.  Of course such a storyline would be better suited to TV than movies ... but with one exception ... If they go with Episode X and beyond, leaving Ren in charge of recovering FO planets after they have reached some kind of truce with the Resistance sets the stage for uneasy, but not war-like dealings with his mother; an ongoing below-the-surface tension with the woman he openly loves, Rey; and the opportunity for more growth and joining with his mother and Rey to fight an external enemy in Episode X and beyond, where he redeems himself further by saving people's lives and eventually walks away from power George Washington style and he and Rey are totally on the same page and ready to have a family, etc.
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 22 May - 8:33

Darth Dingbat wrote:
spacebaby45678 wrote:“Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it at his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.”

- The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary


@spacebaby45678

Well, yeah, but none of that was actually in the film.

I hope that's not the direction in which the character is going, because I honestly can't see it ending well. And if it happens, I'll continue to insist they set up a completely different kind of conflict in the character in TFA. An emotional and metaphysical one, rather than a practical conflict of gaining power and ruling.

But then, it would just prove to me that TFA really was all over the place with no clear direction and unifying theme for the trilogy at all.
@Darth Dingbat

ITA totally, I think LF has it's vision, that it sneaks into supplementary materials, like visual dictionaries and novels... and I think JJ had a vision on how to get it on the screen and make a blockbuster and sometimes those two things don't agree.
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sun 22 May - 8:54

@SoloSideCousin: All very good points, and that would certainly be an interesting story in its own right. Not one I expected from this trilogy, but still.

I didn't really mean that Kylo came across as a fumbling idiot whom nobody respects at all. But I also didn't see him as a true leader figure. He's scary, that's what he is. A brooding and intimidating figure. Like you say, he was like the grim reaper on Jakku. Hux resents him. His men fear him and his tantrums. That his men hesitate to approach him to inform him about problems he should be made aware of makes him incredibly poor leader material, IMO. Someone pragmatic like Palpatine would listen and then deal with those problems efficiently asap.

But then, I guess we just don't have enough material to tell what kind of a leader he'd be. My point really just is that the character development we saw in TFA didn't come across to me as a man on a journey to overcoming his weaknesses and taking on the mantle of a leader. He went from that grim reaper to a broken man in the end, not the other way round. If a Renperor plot is coming, I still see absolutely nothing in TFA that set one up, apart from one ambiguous like about finishing what Vader started which might refer to anything (and, considering that the film is about an awakening in the Force, would seem more likely to refer to balancing the Force which was really Anakin's "job" that obviously didn't quite succeed).

And if Episode VIII is in large part going to be about the mystical Force plot on Ahch-To, I'm not sure when exactly this pragmatic journey of a grey Renperor is supposed to take place.
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by Saracene on Sun 22 May - 9:01

Renperor is kinda fun to think about, but I doubt that this is where the story is actually headed. The notion that Kylo, in the end, comes to rule from the dark side is unrealistic, because this is Star Wars and we know that the good guys are going to win in the end. And he can't really rule from the good side because of all the bad sith he's done. And I don't think that these series are going to explore some nuanced grey area, politics wise. In TFA, The Resistance is good and it's got all the good guys we like on its side; The First Order is baaaad, the end. Plus after the prequels, I think they're going to keep politics to the minimum.
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by AppleCrumble122 on Sun 22 May - 9:02

@SoloSideCousin

Yeah, put on the subtitles - he shouts "Guards!" when he's destroying the interrogation chair. I got the impression that he was yelling out of fury that they allowed Rey to escape and thus were useless.

As for me - I love the idea of Renperor, but only in fanfiction/fanart stuff. I cannot see it happening in the films because the narrative doesn't point towards it, for the same reason other people have given.
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Re: Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 22 May - 9:05

Darth wanted Luke to join him and to rule the Galaxy and end the conflict. " As father & Son"  So Ren characterization is consistent within ST Lore.



credit: YT hey I've just cut off your hand, and this is crazy, but I'm yo father, so join me maybe. Very Happy lol!



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