Kylo coded as traumatized?

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Fri 27 May - 16:42

@slade i have also read my fair share of writing about america's notorious criminals (we have some interesting people in europe but nobody quite so colourful). it's extra-curricular activity for me.

i am catholic (i was baptised anyway) but i'm not sure how much that informs my moral judgement.

i have also worked in care and continue to work in healthcare. i think practicing some kind of active compassion (love is a doing word and all that) is important to me. i also think it needs to be practiced in a realistic way, i cannot bleed myself dry for others, it means i can't do my job. i'm pragmatic in this way.

anyway, i feel the death penalty is not a punishment that keeps people from murdering or committing other crimes, it's pointless. the things i know about jurisdiction or about punishment don'T give me a lot of confidence in how we treat criminals and those in need of rehabilitation. i think for all the psychopaths who are being imprisoned, we are forgetting those who can be supported to lead a kind of normal life.

people make mistakes. they do not make these mistakes in a vacuum. they are accountable for this but i feel we need to invest in them our time and our care to help them and show them how they can be different.

i was reading about learned helplessness and how you need to learn that there is a way out. i think that's what therapy is. you point the way out out, as it were. we neglect this because somehow we think prisons are places that should be punishment in themselves. this is counter-productive.

anyway, this is turning into social commentary. i feel very strongly that if they can do anything at all, they can advance the argument that people can come back and they can live. i feel that this narrative is utterly neglected and i cannot think of many stories that go there at all... maleficent just popped into my head.

but that story i feel is strongly connected with the military, as many people have expressed before. and i feel that that would be utterly worth telling. what does war do to you and how do you process this?

all three of these children are dragged into this conflict that nobody has been able to settle. it's the next generation and i feel very strongly that ben embodies the failure of his family to look after him and respond to him properly as well as the failure of the galaxy to secure lasting peace. the political situation which to me is so utterly indistinguishable from the OT, is on point, i think. they just perpetuate.

anyway, grow up, star wars. it's my dearest wish. i think the number of mature women flocking to this fandom now is speaking volumes.

re: han and leia not using his name. he does the same with han - he doesn't call him father. it's all very consciously dissociative.

also, you need an ... avatar Winks

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Reynak on Fri 27 May - 18:48

I have heard of Ted Bundy and I agree that there are prople who are beyond redemption, of course. Those shouldn't be among other people again, because they are a risk a sensible society can't take. It would also be useless to try and rehabilitate some people and it's true that real hell exists in this world and the devil walks on human feet. There are some "monsters" far beyond redemption, but these monsters are easy to label and catalogue, what's difficult to decide is what to do with people like Kylo, who aren't intrinsically evil but have made horrible actions.

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 22:14

Exactly. And my own admittedly hard-line views are informed by my own past trauma (as a crime victim) which goes back to the observation that choices are not made in a vacuum. And regarding the galactic senate, and what was supposed to have been 30 years of relative peace, yet the senate is tearing itself apart (seemingly), perhaps that says something about the human condition, about how *hard* we have to fight for the most fragile peace, and how easily and quickly it is lost.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 27 May - 22:45

Reynak wrote:I have heard of Ted Bundy and I agree that there are prople who are beyond redemption, of course. Those shouldn't be among other people again, because they are a risk a sensible society can't take. It would also be useless to try and rehabilitate some people and it's true that real hell exists in this world and the devil walks on human feet. There are some "monsters" far beyond redemption, but these monsters are easy to label and catalogue, what's difficult to decide is what to do with people like Kylo, who aren't intrinsically evil but have made horrible actions.

@Slade
@Reynak

There are absolutely evil people, like Bundy or child predators. But the vast majority of people "in the system" don't fall in that "have absolutely no conscience whatsoever" category. The vast majority are people with incredibly bad life skills, destructive core belief systems (instilled in them by family that didn't know any better either) and/or have serious neuropsychological issues that have a real biological basis, whether that is due to hereditary or more often than the not, just from the fact that their brains have been drowning in stress hormones their entire lives, thereby making them extremely vulnerable to issues of emotional dysregulation for the rest of their lives. None of these people will ever be "perfect" in some magical psychological sense, as perfect or normal doesn't really exist in my opinion. However, intervention through therapy (particularly that of the cognitive-behavioral school where people learn to think around their mental roadblocks), medication, exercise, diet and meditation can really improve people's quality of life and make them think before making some of those choices.

I personally not a big fan of the government getting into people's business. I don't think there is one standard for all people. There are all kinds of different and non-destructive ways to live this life. But if I had a magic wand, one thing I would recommend is heavy investment in mindfulness meditation and/or any other kind of techniques that would lower the temperature of the brain. Because if your brain has been put into a primal, amygdala-centered “fight or flight” mode, your executive decision-making abilities are going to be highly impaired.

I think that one of the reasons I have found myself so sympathetic to Kylo Ren is because I have done a lot of reading on these biological/neuropsychological issues. To me the Snoke infiltration would *have to* cause extreme stress to the brain, and if he can never get away from it, there is no chance for calm, healing or recovery. Such long-term extreme stress would keep in permanently in that “fight or flight”/fear-based place and would destroy his emotional regulation abilities. I further think that the efficacy of those abilities would decrease the closer he got to the dark side and to Snoke. That’s why the 23 turn doesn’t bother me, because I think there may have been periods where he was “in a better place” mentally, where he could keep Snoke at bay to an extent, prior to his fall. But when his world shattered, the mental stress would attack him with a vengeance because he would have never had the chance to build up any defense resources because he had his mind attacked continuously and from such an early age. Also, the long-term Snoke abuse would predispose him to falling into a primal, amygdala-centered, “fight or flight” way of thinking whenever under stress, thereby making his executive decision-making functions completely terrible while in the FO, when dealing with Rey (who could make him question everything) and when being told by his abuser, with whom he has formed a dysfunctional dependency relationship, to kill his father. So when he actually meets said father, who was not Mr. Perfect Dad, but actually seems to be “there” for him for once, but at the same time the whole atmosphere is plunged into the darkness when the sun dies, that guy is just not going to know what end is up.

And that guy is not a person you put in jail and throw away the key. That guy is your rehabilitation candidate.


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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 22:50

@SoloSideCousin

Yes...and fascinating stuff in your first paragraph.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Reynak on Sat 28 May - 3:52

@Solosidecousin,

What you say in your previous post is extremely interesting, because you have experience on the matter and it still makes sense in your opinion that Kylo could have been conditioned and damaged by a predator that resembles so much a cult sect leader (or a fanatic organization indoctrinator) and be able to resist for years, or perhaps he did bad things before Leia sent him to be with Luke and maybe had some better years until there was a detonator in the form of some terrible event that broke him and Snoke took advantage of that.

I have also thought that he might have joined the FO out of necessity if the rumours about Luke having become dangerous and uncapable of controlling his Force powers are true. What if something to help Luke or to prevent a terrible danger for the galaxy could be done only from inside the ranks of the FO and this is why he gave in to Snoke's demands but with his own agenda in mind?

I'm saying this because he gave me a really ambiguous impression while watching the movie. He has a mission and he thinks it's just, it may be his own mission he keeps hidden from Snoke or it may have been planted on his mind by Snoke himself making him believe it's good when it isn't. We have too many examples of this in RL with young men taking lives for a cause they were led to believe was just.

The question is how could he resist for so long if he was preyed upon like that, as this is difficult to imagine for me. And thinking of our real world there is another problem. Once in the DS, either for a selfless and heroic reason or because of Snoke's manipulation and indoctrination, he still is in a dire situation and has taken lives, so by this point he is one of them and the DS and his own actions have tainted him. Do you think there's a chance for him to come back, to recover, would society give him a chance to return to a "normal" life after what he did or mercy is no longer possible and, as he himself said, it is too late? What if he manages to see the right path again and regrets his crimes? Will he be given a chance or does he have to pay because justice requires that?

This is the complicated part, I think, this is why the antis deny him the capacity for redemption, because it's easier to label people and clasify them as good or bad as you only have to weigh their offences or crimes to decide on the punishment. It's a way of thinking focused on retribution and punishment rather than on justice itself but when the criminal is evil this isn't controversial, there are no doubts. The problem appears with those like Kylo, who have lived and suffered terrible circumstances and still could come back to the right path.

Considering he could be rehabilitated and learn how to cope with life and his own issues is terrible if you can't get past the other main problem, he has taken lives, should he be denied freedom for ever or should his life be taken to pay for the ones he took? Is it fair to let him live his life unpunished by the law?

He has a conscience and regret and grief will be the toll he'll pay if he survives so I think perhaps in SW universe there's a chance for him depending on the reasons for his fall we still have to learn. But what about real life, would he spend the rest of it in jail I guess, or would the punishment be less severe due to his circumstances ( brainwashing, manipulation, war, etc)?

I think this is why the antis choose to label him as irredeemable, because then they don't have doubts about what to do with him and people like him, but what if he is so traumatised and manipulated the idea of free will becomes blurred or downright utopic because his mind was clouded by poisonous indoctrination and manipulation? Should they send him to jail and throw away the key even knowing he regrets what he did and could rehabilitate himself? What is more important, justice or mercy? Can we afford to focus on the second when the man has taken lives?
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Sat 28 May - 4:19

i don't find the 'evil' label helpful or the 'irredeemable' ... redemption seems a particularly englsih-speaking concept and i haven't found a really useful translation so far. and i'm not sure why that is because my guts speak very eloquently of him returning to a life because he has none.

when applying evil to real life, i find it even less helpful. it's a judgement to me that allows to other someone but it's not going anywhere. so, ted bundy or whoever, has done terrible things, true, but not in a vacuum either. a lot of psychopaths come from a background of abuse themselves. on of the reasons we have fewer female serial killers is that these women end up creating situations where their boys then become them. this is a very rough generalisation and i'm no expert (john douglas is).

alice miller has written very eloquently about people with abuse in their lives, who then became violent. she traces hitler's abuse patterns and works out how they reflected in his politics. this is still a huge taboo topic in germany. if we can continue to paint hitler as evil, we don't have to understand what kind of background he came from. we don't have to understand indoctrination and we don't have to see how to prevent the rise of fascism. and we aren't preventing anything anyway, you can see that.

kylo ren as a character is clearly positioned as second banana to the big bad, and there is clearly enough conflict to shake a stick at to see that he doesn't want to be there, yet believes this is where he should be... yet believes that he's part of the good guys, yet believes that there is something that is his mission. like, what??!!

the drama would be flat if there wasn't at least some interesting delusion behind all this, if at least there wasn't some story to tell, i think we all agree.

but how does snoke now fit into all this? i'm kinda going with @panki here, that he was kidnapped and isolated from everyone and his vulnerability utterly exploited. isolation is a very sure way of driving people into all sorts of madness and it helps radicalisation. i do believe that he wasn't on the best terms with his parents, i don't think they really ever related to him and the late revelation of his heritage will have done something else. i do wonder how much of a rift it would have created with luke as well, given that luke couldn't tell him either but sensed his force powers?
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 28 May - 5:01

Great post, @guardienne, and what you say about "him returning to a life because he has none" resonates with me.

The reason why Kylo is such a big conundrum as a character, I think, is because he has done horrible things but at the same time, he already is in a state of punishment.

A lot of people - here, especially - wouldn't find it satisfying to watch Kylo humiliated and brought low as he regrets his crimes because he already seems to be very low. It wouldn't be satisfying to see him be thrown in a prison because it would be like exchanging one prison for another. It's like all possible punishments seem anti-climactic and flatten out the character's potential. But killing him is the least satisfying of all because it's like killing someone who was already in a state of living death at the beginning of the story.

I do understand why the idea of Renperor appeals to some, even if I hate it myself: it would be like giving agency to someone who seems to have very little of it, thanks to Snoke. But at the same time it would be pretty unsatisfying and pessimistic to watch someone who has a strong "pull to the light" finally succeed in extinguishing that light and becoming darker and more powerful. Is that really a story they'd like to tell? I hope not.

So how do you solve a problem like Kylo? I don't know.

I hope they know what they're doing with the character, but I confess I sometimes wonder how all these pieces fit together.

The only truly satisfying and optimistic conclusion for a tormented character like Kylo is for him to return to life, but how do you do that without brushing aside his crimes? Especially when he has done something that a large portion of the audience sees as beyond forgiveness.

To be honest, the only way the character of a man who actively chooses the Dark Side though he only seems to gain suffering from it makes sense to me is if he has a really good secret reason for doing what he does. And by "good" I mean something justifiable that makes the audience see him in a different light; not something like "my grandfather was Darth Vader, therefore I deserve to be powerful, just because".

(In the context of an optimistic space fairytale, I mean: in some gritty realistic story the fall of a man who isn't inherently bad and hates his conscience for tormenting him would be interesting. But there's no way that would be anything other than a pessimistic story about the perversity of the human condition.)
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Sat 28 May - 5:41

@darth dingbat i love your musings.

i think his crimes are relative to his position. it's like with anakin, you essentially f**** up a demigod and then give him a light sabre?? well, the result would be something like this (i'm still not understanding how giving little kids weapon training as the jedi do, does not draw more ire. that is so SO wrong) so his atonement or redemption will be in proportion to that.

the crimes won't be pushed aside. i think the movie is making doubly and triply sure they won't but they will also not be the focus. i think what i remember from our discussion on the previous forum as well, is that the crimes in themselves illustrate soething about teh character, they aren't literal things, so i never feel that i'm whitewashing or anything, i always feel that i have seen what he can do and i've seen how little joy it brings him and i know it's an odd way to look at it probably in the eyes of a lot of people, but my focus is then entirely on, what on earth happened to you??!!

and i can sometimes see how that is possibly grating (my mum keeps coming back to han's execution because for her that's a major thing and it very much is) but to me it's like, yeah, but in itself it's traumatising enough, it's been forgiven and it's wrong wrong wrong but it cannot be undone and it was very much between him and his father in a way that makes it a crime out of... dunno.. despair? a sacrifice? it's not that it's not murder, it's just so oddly intimate and caring, i cannot bring myself to describe it properly and assess it in a legal sense. it's a family thing and it happened because of very specific curcumstances and because of those circumstances, it will be ok. that's why it's contrasted with LST, another old man he just cuts down and it's easy-peasy.

anyway, in my heart of hearts, these things have happened. this man is lost to himself and others will consider him lost. and doing terrible things and making mistakes happens, his are just on a kind of cosmic level of f***ed-upness.

and part of me, and i think that is why there is so much hand-wringing over the character rom all sorts of quarters, is that there is no one to bear witness to him. we are bearing witness now and we can do jack about it. we are essentially suspended and we struggle with that and that's kinda beautiful. and i just scrolled through the redemption thread because i was trying to find an old post of mine for reposting, and i love how analytical everyone becomes over redemption.

it's my gut, my gut says, go on and redeem yourself, because i cannot bear the alternative.

anyway, the funny thing about the character is that he himself refuses han's offer. and i can see why he would and it wouldn't be very dramatic if he had taken it up, but it's really he himself who needs to get over himself. and i can see us collectively willing him to do so.

(incidentally, the post i wanted to repost is about combat veterans also refusing to come back, as it were, refusing to see themselves as good people still, as people who can be loved... i find it so confusing that he himself could be indoctrinated by snoke, have become wildly unstable through being exposed to the dark side in general, and this is enough for him to think of himself as bad and unable to go home. so, in a way, all the self-loathing is there, but somehow he's öearned it's useless to resist perhaps?...)
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Sat 28 May - 6:33

google yields the best stuff: excerpt from Odysseus in America: Combat Trauma and the Trials of Homecoming

What kind of recognition and acknowledgment would have let Wiry feel he was "known," understood, and valued? Any kind? Would it have affected his need for "action"? I believe that a unit association of Riverine Force veterans, such as exists now thirty-plus years out, could have made this difference had it existed at the time.

Some readers will angrily accuse me of perpetuating the "crazed, criminal, out-of-control Vietnam Veteran Stereotype." Absolutely nothing I have to say here is distinctive to the Vietnam War. War itself does this. War itself creates situations that can wreck the mind. If Wiry has lost his reason at times, he had good reasons. I'll put it as bluntly as I can: combat service per se smoothes the way into criminal careers afterward in civilian life. Reread the list above on page 21 of capacities that combat cultivates. A criminal career allows a veteran to remain in combat mode, use his hard-earned skills, and even to relive aspects of his experience. In other words, he is doing exactly what Odysseus does in the sack of Ismarus.

[...]

Can combat veterans be kept away from criminal careers in civilian life? Can we prevent this damage to good character, which is so destructive to the veteran and to those around him?[...]

The answer does not lie in something that is new or expensive, or once it is said, surprising: it lies in community. Vietnam veterans came home alone. The most significant community for a combat veteran is that of his surviving comrades. Prevention of criminal deformity of returning veterans must start with the beginning of military service, not as an afterthought when the veteran is home and already in trouble.

there is also  an audio interview with jonathan shay
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Sat 28 May - 6:47

@Kylo Ren

there is a christian idea, i'm afraid it's not the prevalent christian idea and probably not supported by canonical law and things like that, ... it's the idea that sin is what seperates you from the divine.

so, if you conceptualise us as having a divine nature, when we sin, we turn away from that. it's between us and the divine. and atonement to me is then the becoming one with our divine nature again. the sin in that sense is keenly felt by us, our turning away from the divine is keenly felt, and by god i hope kylo bloody feels it by now, and our way back to ourselves, our divine nature, is what's important. that's the concept.

this is why i'm not worried about prison and laws in the GFFA and in our world, because the sin is between me and god. that's the important relationship. not that the others don't count but you have make peace with yourself first and understand your action and then you can go and repair the damage.

that's how i feel about it anyway.

what people seem to clamour for is that the character is being made to pay for sins, which doesn't work as a concept at all. like, dying himself won't undo anything. there is nothing whatsoever he can do that will undo anything. it's pointless. and there is also not a single good reason for what he's done. like, there'd be nothing to say about it to my mind.

in real life, when people have f***ed up, if all you do is insist on their wrongness and how terrible they are, what's going to happen? they will perpetuate this and it will be come a self-fulfilling prophecy. that's why kylo is doing. he is bad therefore killing han is probably ok. but then he also believes he is right??!!

wtf, kylo, wtf?

i don't know much anymore i feel. but i enjoy reading about combat trauma.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Macha Ren on Sat 28 May - 11:14

At the root of Kylo's problem are some long-standing issues of attachment. He isn't looking for power to rule the Galaxy. He is looking for acceptance and belonging. With his history of trauma, he is, at this point, even willing to accept abusive approval and acceptance. Because the alternative--rejection--is something he cannot bear.

This goes back to childhood attachment issues. While he wasn't outright rejected and kicked out of the home (think LGBT In a homophobic family), he likely still feels like he was abandoned when shipped off to his uncle. So he's stuck in an abusive dynamic with Snoke because if he defects, he has no place to go.

Because of his past experiences he has no sense of self-worth.. He refers to Ben Solo in the third person. "Your son is dead. He was weak like his father." It's easier to hate yourself when you look at things from that perspective.

If Kylo has any chance of salvation or redemption, he has to realize he is not Snoke's ally and apprentice, that he is a victim not all that different than the others at the Jedi Academy. But instead of being murdered, he was condemned to a life as Snoke's slave and puppet.

He has to acknowledge that in order to transition from victim to survivor. That needs to be first, and after that she needs to forgive himself.



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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Sat 28 May - 16:47

Kylo Ren wrote:The fact that he believes that what he is doing is right is the thing that ultimately makes him redeemable...if he did it while knowing...trully knowing that that sith won't bring him control and peace of mind (as in release from the torness apart he has been feeling) than he would be unforgivable....


Also...deities sin...against innocent all the time...by letting evil things happen to them....does it exuse them if they think humans less worthy? (This is how a friend of mine tried to explain her religion to me (Islam) and how it's okay bad s*** happens in a world where allpowerfull deity is supposed to exist)...If they think humans are less worthy and thus sqashable then they sin again...from my point of view....

In principle I would have nothing against the allpowerfull Gods if they'd start acting like Gods and not sadistic egocentrical a**holes...and solve the problems of the world... or at least punish the evil...
That's why I am more inclined to believe that if Gods exist (big if)  they are pittiful...and powerless...

Don't have much love for either...sadists or weaklings alike...
@Kylo Ren

i wouldn't confuse the anthropomorphic gods with the divine Wink i'm really not talking about the greek pantheon et al. the divine i see more as the force or qi, a neutral power, not gendered, without will and desire. it is NOT like a person because it is eternal and infinite and it is essentially unimaginable. and because it is unimaginable, i'm not worried to imagine it. it's like a blank space that i fill. but anyway, i don't want to spend that much time discussing cosmology.

the question of why evil exists has been keeping people sleepless since the dawn of time and nobody knows with any certainty (a lot of it is manmade, i would argue). the model of sin i was proposing takes out the aspect of law, it only deals with your own conscience. and you could equate conscience with divine nature. and that would be that. and that way, yeah, it's because he's deluded himself and believes what he's doing is right, that it will work.

because snoke will continue playing him and he will see through snoke's lies.

@macha ren you know i keep thinking of him as bisexual. he doesn't belong to either community and has to essentially make his own.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Maria Antonietta on Sat 28 May - 17:03

Kylo Ren wrote:"You say tomato, I say tomato"
I was talking about contemporary Gods....Jahve...Alah..Jesus...and such...
and for me everything about it is personal...if it happens to me...
dunno if I would call qi devine or a deity...in my head deities are more like in Zelazny's world....Energy/Spirit/Force is something entirely different....

Evil exists because it's inately present in humans...the ego...selfishness...we are all born evil...some choose to rise above it...and...evil thrives when good men do nothing...


I drank beer...don't mind me much... Ninja
@Kylo Ren

Ooooohh I need a beer now
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Mon 30 May - 16:25

We have been carefully taught to believe that good character cannot change in
adulthood. This belief has a brilliant pedigree. It starts with Plato and runs through the
Stoics, Kant, and Freud. It says, if you make it out of childhood with “good breeding”
(Plato’s term; today we would say “good genes”) and good upbringing, then your good
character is set by the end of childhood. No bad experience can break it. The trouble with
this lovely idea is that it is bunk. The classic [pun intended] discussion of this by a
philosopher is Martha Nussbaum’s (1986) The Fragility of Goodness.1
Over the years, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) has rejected every
diagnostic concept that even hints at the possibility that bad experience in adulthood can
damage good character. It has rejected what numerous clinicians following Judith Herman,
MD and Mary Harvey, PhD call “Complex PTSD,” but which the APA atrociously
named in its field trials, “Disorders of Extreme Stress Not Otherwise Specified
(DESNOS).” It has rejected “Enduring Personality Change after Catastrophic Experience,”
which is a current diagnosis in the WHO International Classification of Diseases,
and “Post Traumatic Embitterment Disorder.” The latter diagnostic construct is the work
of Professor Michael Linden’s group at the Free University of Berlin and Charité in
Berlin. He and his colleagues have a vast body of clinical and research data on the often
devastating psychological consequences of having one’s honorable and respect-worthy
life trajectory shot out of the sky,

found this today in an article on moral injury by jonathan shay... (i would link to it but i cannot bloody link to a pdf for some reason)

essentially what he is saying is that moral injury can be dependent on a powerholder. in the army it's the person who commands you. and he's also saying, interestingly (obvsly) that moral injury changes character.

i think this is fitting very well with kylo as the awesome ms-qualia has already pointed out in her moral injury meta ... but i especially like how shay describes the difference between PTSD and moral injury.

anyway, please ask google for the article (it's fairly short and easily read) and i'm really wanting to reread the odyssee now. so much reading for this fandom!
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Tue 31 May - 0:57

Ok, I'm off to try to find that article.  Completely coincidentally, I just got back from the bookstore, where I purchased Listening to Killers:  Lessons Learned from My 20 Years as a Psychological Expert Witness in Murder Cases, by James Garbarino.  I haven't read it yet, but there's a chapter on moral injury.

10 minutes later...

I just read the article. (it is titled simply "Moral Injury"). And I learned something: moral injury can occur either when someone betrays his own moral code in a significant way, OR when someone in authority over the morally injured person betrays that person's moral code (thus causing the moral injury). I wasn't aware that the latter scenario could lead to moral injury.

So if we assume that the concept of moral injury applies to Kylo, what argument can we make for how it happened?


Last edited by Slade on Tue 31 May - 1:15; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Tue 31 May - 0:59

And I'd be willing to bet Adam Driver is familiar with the concept of moral injury, and that it influenced his creation of Kylo.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Tue 31 May - 1:24

Slade wrote:Ok, I'm off to try to find that article.  Completely coincidentally, I just got back from the bookstore, where I purchased Listening to Killers:  Lessons Learned from My 20 Years as a Psychological Expert Witness in Murder Cases, by James Garbarino.  I haven't read it yet, but there's a chapter on moral injury.

10 minutes later...

I just read the article. (it is titled simply "Moral Injury"). And I learned something: moral injury can occur either when someone betrays his own moral code in a significant way, OR when someone in authority over the morally injured person betrays that person's moral code (thus causing the moral injury). I wasn't aware that the latter scenario could lead to moral injury.

So if we assume that the concept of moral injury applies to Kylo, what argument can we make for how it happened?
@Slade

you are bound to learn something Wink and yes it is titled 'moral injury'. shay's book 'achilles in vietnam' i think also deals with moral injury.

and i think driver knows about this, maybe not in this detail but knows about it through his work. conjecture, sure, but reasonable conjecture, i should think.

what tickles me is that when han approaches him, he already is judging himself for his past. so *something* has already happened, some betrayal of his values and ethics... or something done by snoke? it's a bit confusing at this stage and i would like to ignore bloodline, but snoke could have demanded he participate in the 'destruction' of luke's work, something that goes against, well, everything, but why suddenly follow along? and then you could argue, conveniently not ignoring bloodline now, that is was the revelation of who vader is to him?



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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Tue 31 May - 1:35

We may simply not know enough about Kylo's past at this point to really be able to speculate...
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Tue 31 May - 1:58

Slade wrote:We may simply not know enough about Kylo's past at this point to really be able to speculate...
@Slade

this would keep me normally but what else can i do - especially with so much fantastic reading out there?

anyway, here's the stuff i looked for the other day.




it's from a book called Killing from the Inside Out by Meagher. read some of it here: https://books.google.de/books?id=gB-QBAAAQBAJ&pg=PP7&lpg=PP7&dq=killing from the inside out&source=bl&ots=PimBOECyPT&sig=mCbppum7Rs7Vr4B-hAEpYQ8fQss&hl=de&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiCmJaXsobMAhXJOhQKHRLwBaoQ6AEIZzAN#v=onepage&q=killing from the inside out&f=false
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Tue 31 May - 2:56

Yeah...the suicide rate among the Veterans is high. (as an aside, I'm actually glad Driver injured himself and got medically discharged and never deployed, for just this reason)

And yes, my "to read" list is growing...

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