Kylo coded as traumatized?

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 4:20

@slade yes i'm glad about that too. we know how much he wanted to be deployed but i'm kinda triangulating that with the other book i mentioned (on killing) because of how that author described the intense conditioning that any soldiers goes through. i find army such an interesting subject. it's a weird closed-off world and we get these people back after they've seen things we wouldn't want anyone to see and done unspeakable things and we expect them to function. but i get fascinated with prison as well.

your country does actual stats on veteran suicides. mine doesn't even do that. but then we had a relative break from war for 50 years. dunno how much warfare has changed in the last 20 years. i expect that with the advent of drones etc, it has become even more impersonal (by design) which i'm not sure makes things easier. i mean, for the soldiers.

i only dug these excerpts out because they seem to describe kylo so well. not so much because it ends in suicide. it just strikes me that when han meets him, he has already decided he is beyond saving. so what happened?


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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by snufkin on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 4:24

You two might also be interested in this book. I heard the interview on the radio the other Saturday morning and it caught my attention because they also referenced the sort of depression people have after serving in the Peace Corps (I'm an alum) or after being wartime correspondents. But it's mostly about the rough transition ex-military go through.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 5:51

I was eyeballing that book yesterday! I think its true with a lot of trauma survivors as well as the people who experience vicarious trauma and compassion fatigue that they feel that sense of alienation (pulling from personal experience; I have PTSD. Not sure it is relevant, but it informs how I read/make sense of this stuff).
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by snufkin on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 5:53

@Slade - the reference to the Peace Corps caught me by surprise because while the agency has gotten better in terms of more openess about sexual assault/risk faced by female volunteers, there's always been a pretty hardcore code of stoicism. You get taught to understand what culture shock is (as an example), but actually openly expressing those feelings either in the field or on your return to the States has been frowned upon.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 6:04

@guardienne wrote:
@Slade wrote:We may simply not know enough about Kylo's past at this point to really be able to speculate...
@Slade

this would keep me normally but what else can i do - especially with so much fantastic reading out there?

anyway, here's the stuff i looked for the other day.




it's from a book called Killing from the Inside Out by Meagher. read some of it here: https://books.google.de/books?id=gB-QBAAAQBAJ&pg=PP7&lpg=PP7&dq=killing from the inside out&source=bl&ots=PimBOECyPT&sig=mCbppum7Rs7Vr4B-hAEpYQ8fQss&hl=de&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiCmJaXsobMAhXJOhQKHRLwBaoQ6AEIZzAN#v=onepage&q=killing from the inside out&f=false
@guardienne

"Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hatred." Still so many unanswered questions about Kylo. I do think Han had written him off years ago.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 6:49

@snufkin wrote:You two might also be interested in this book. I heard the interview on the radio the other Saturday morning and it caught my attention because they also referenced the sort of depression people have after serving in the Peace Corps (I'm an alum) or after being wartime correspondents. But it's mostly about the rough transition ex-military go through.
@snufkin

just when i thought i had all my bases covered!

But roughly half the U.S. military has applied for some form of disability based on PTSD. So there's 40 percent in there who really weren't traumatized, who come home and are - feel deeply alienating and out of place. The only language they have for it is PTSD. I actually don't think that's what is. And by definition, it can't be.

What they're experiencing is the very real trauma of reintegration into modern society. People who serve two years in the Peace Corps have the same problem. The depression rates after people come home from the Peace Corps is astronomically high.

i think that's what shay also covers in the odysseus book. both of them, achilles and odysseus are actually partially on google books as well.

there is a fish-out-of-water theme to modern warfare, and obviously especially in the middle east. because the troops deployed there don't know the country. there is a film called bitter lake by adam curtis (he assembles his films out of existing footage, they aren't documentaries per se) and it struck me how clueless the british troops were wrt afghanistan. villages would pitch them against neighbouring tribes and such. it's just a mess. and it makes no sense. and it's even more difficult to retain a sense of what's happening.

didn't junger write the hurt locker as well?

edit: aaaaand wrong again...
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 12:13

That Doerries book The Theatre of War addresses this, too.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 18:12

@Slade wrote:That Doerries book The Theatre of War addresses this, too.
@Slade

yes, i think the shay interview i posted a few pages back also addresses the community factor. i'm guessing that these guys are all sort of tackling it from the same position of compassion.

jonathan shay wrote:Can combat veterans be kept away from criminal careers in civilian life? Can we prevent this damage to good character, which is so destructive to the veteran and to those around him?[...]

The answer does not lie in something that is new or expensive, or once it is said, surprising: it lies in community. Vietnam veterans came home alone. The most significant community for a combat veteran is that of his surviving comrades. Prevention of criminal deformity of returning veterans must start with the beginning of military service, not as an afterthought when the veteran is home and already in trouble.

i've just started with achilles in vietnam and he goes on about vets not even having space to describe their experience.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 19:25

And that is just so wrong.  Part of the problem is that people, in general, don't want to hear it.  They don't want the responsibility of bearing witness, of bearing part of the vet's burden.  Ok, I'm just going to say it:  I wonder if the problem is compounded with the way this "War on Terror" (excuse me, but WTF?) was spun and sold to the American public.  If my students' attitudes are indicative of any significant portion of Americans' attitudes, then a lot of them most adamantly do NOT want to hear anything that contradicts the Official Narrative of this entire bloody disaster.  And taking the time to listen to and acknowledge what these veterans need to say would mean the listener has to face up to the fact that they were lied to and/or wrong.  

Could the happy-happy, bootstrap-yourself-up American attitude play a part in the problem as well? I've never been out of the country, so I don't know how correct my belief is here, but it seems to me that there's a lot of pressure on Americans (by other Americans and by the overculture) to act happy, overtly so, all the time, and if really bad things happen, to get over it extremely fast. If someone is depressed, a lot of people seem to see it as a moral failing. There just isn't a lot of room in our mainstream culture for things like grief, depression, brokenness to have a space to exist. I think it's tied into religion, too (I completely support people's freedom to believe in whatever, but in parts of the US, the religious stuff is just...wack). And religion is seen (by many) as a spiritual cure-all band-aid for psychological gunshot wounds. Maybe what I'm trying to describe is more prevalent in the Southern US.

One thing that was such a relief when I found other Goths was that pressure to be all shiny happy was not there. And I almost think with Kylo...I don't think JJ Abrams, et al were trying to create a character who was a Goth, but nonetheless, there he is. He definitely would fit right in with a murder of Goths. His appearance with the all black clothes, the very fair skin, the black or nearly black hair--these carry pretty specific meanings in Western culture (see Byronic Hero, vampires), and I have often wondered if there's something archetypal about it. Coming at it from a different angle, every time I visit the town I grew up in, I get the urge to thumb my nose at the residents and say "I am everything you people repressed, come back to haunt you." I want to interpret Kylo the same way, as the embodiment of the "return of the repressed" in a psyche, family, or culture. This could be complete word vomit, for all I can tell at this late hour. I hope I didn't give TMI by referencing myself so much; I truly don't know how else to convey some of these ideas but through personal experience/observations.

Does anyone know if there's a video of Driver and his group doing these readings of Sophocles and Euripides for the veterans?  I'd love to hear them.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 20:48

there's this:





Theater of War: Soldiers & Citizens Tour presents AJAX
Featuring Jay O. Sanders, Maryann Plunkett, and Jamie Sanders



A reading of Sophocles' Philoctetes, adapted by Bryan Doerries. Cast: Michael Stuhlbarg (Philoctetes), Jesse Eisenberg (Neoptolomus), Adam Ludwig (Odysseus), John Schmerling (Chorus).

(being able to discover these things with you guys is one of the absolute pleasures of the fandom.)

i don't know how things differ from your country to mine. i have a feeling people are generally reluctant to confront unpleasantness and upsetting feelings.

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Wed 1 Jun 2016 - 21:34





(from achilles in vietnam)

@slade i think you said something about being able to voice experience. communally voicing experience, like in drama or film, is integral to that.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 2 Jun 2016 - 7:23

I agree that there is an overall issue of people just not wanting to deal with or actually fearing other people's pain that crosses over into all creeds and classes. I didn't grow up in a small town, but based on hearing you @slade and others from small towns, I think some pretty stifling and idiosyncratic dynamics can happen as there frequently seems to be one family or a small group of families that set the tone.


But I think that there is another issue at play now in the context of veterans, and that issue is the fact that military service people have become their own special caste. Today in US only 1% of the population goes into the service. This group, I believe based on things I have read, basically consists of (1) people from families with a long history of military service; (2) people with patriotic fervor ... but I think this group would be larger in the past (closer to 9/11) than now; (3) the middle level non-privileged (people who go into ROTC in college so that they get college paid for and come out as officers; and (4) IMO probably the largest group ... people who go in because it's the best option out there due to the individuals not having a good supportive network at home. (I think AD might fit this, along with (2), but one of best examples of this in film that I can think of off-hand is Jennifer Lawrence's character in Winter's Bone.)

During WWII and Korea when the straight draft still existed in the US, the culture did not promote "group therapy" by any means, but at the same time, you could go anywhere and run into a veteran. Military organizations like the VFW were common and popular and veterans were respected.

This changed with Vietnam. Because people could then get draft deferment for college, it became the poor man's war. And unfortunately, it was largely those privileged college students who also spearheaded the anti-war protests *and* most of the time did not distinguish between soldier and war. Plenty of privileged college students who avoided the draft spat in the face of their poorer peers returning from war. Many of these students have gone on to run American universities and cultural institutions and with their influence came, IMO, the stigmatizing of the soldier. I went to an elite American university and the overwhelming message was that the military was bad and that people who went into the service were weirdos, stupid religious gun-nuts, and wanna be fascists ... these opinions being extolled frequently by some of the most privileged and frankly "real-life" clueless people in the literal history of the world. For a few years the events of 9/11 pushed back on that perception, but the amazing incompetence exhibited by both the Bush and Obama administrations in the war effort, these largely unprivileged and caste member people have been asked to do so much, and when they return, because they are part of a small caste, nobody else has any clue as to what they going through. So now people actually have to remember that these people need support when 100 years ago support was inherent in the community.

I come from a situation where I come from a working class lineage where military service is all over my family tree, including my own father, uncles, grandparents and beyond. But in my generation that has stopped. (1) Because there is no general draft, and (2) we have all crossed into sufficient privilege. But I am still close enough to it that I have never cared for the messages I received in college. Also, though I am not reflexively anti-war ... I think there are good things militaries can do, but unless these leaders get a clear direction as to what the goal is and (2) don't impose the viewpoints of the privileged elites, who are 3 generations away from war, I don't want the American soldier or anyone else's soldiers deployed anywhere. Those guys give everything. Someone needs to appreciate that.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Thu 2 Jun 2016 - 11:08

@SoloSideCousin wrote:I agree that there is an overall issue of people just not wanting to deal with or actually fearing other people's pain that crosses over into all creeds and classes. I didn't grow up in a small town, but based on hearing you @slade and others from small towns, I think some pretty stifling and idiosyncratic dynamics can happen as there frequently seems to be one family or a small group of families that set the tone.


But I think that there is another issue at play now in the context of veterans, and that issue is the fact that military service people have become their own special caste. Today in US only 1% of the population goes into the service. This group, I believe based on things I have read, basically consists of (1) people from families with a long history of military service; (2) people with patriotic fervor ... but I think this group would be larger in the past (closer to 9/11) than now; (3) the middle level non-privileged (people who go into ROTC in college so that they get college paid for and come out as officers; and (4) IMO probably the largest group ... people who go in because it's the best option out there due to the individuals not having a good supportive network at home. (I think AD might fit this, along with (2), but one of best examples of this in film that I can think of off-hand is Jennifer Lawrence's character in Winter's Bone.)

During WWII and Korea when the straight draft still existed in the US, the culture did not promote "group therapy" by any means, but at the same time, you could go anywhere and run into a veteran. Military organizations like the VFW were common and popular and veterans were respected.

This changed with Vietnam. Because people could then get draft deferment for college, it became the poor man's war. And unfortunately, it was largely those privileged college students who also spearheaded the anti-war protests *and* most of the time did not distinguish between soldier and war. Plenty of privileged college students who avoided the draft spat in the face of their poorer peers returning from war. Many of these students have gone on to run American universities and cultural institutions and with their influence came, IMO, the stigmatizing of the soldier. I went to an elite American university and the overwhelming message was that the military was bad and that people who went into the service were weirdos, stupid religious gun-nuts, and wanna be fascists ... these opinions being extolled frequently by some of the most privileged and frankly "real-life" clueless people in the literal history of the world. For a few years the events of 9/11 pushed back on that perception, but the amazing incompetence exhibited by both the Bush and Obama administrations in the war effort, these largely unprivileged and caste member people have been asked to do so much, and when they return, because they are part of a small caste, nobody else has any clue as to what they going through. So now people actually have to remember that these people need support when 100 years ago support was inherent in the community.

I come from a situation where I come from a working class lineage where military service is all over my family tree, including my own father, uncles, grandparents and beyond. But in my generation that has stopped. (1) Because there is no general draft, and (2) we have all crossed into sufficient privilege. But I am still close enough to it that I have never cared for the messages I received in college. Also, though I am not reflexively anti-war ... I think there are good things militaries can do, but unless these leaders get a clear direction as to what the goal is and (2) don't impose the viewpoints of the privileged elites, who are 3 generations away from war, I don't want the American soldier or anyone else's soldiers deployed anywhere. Those guys give everything. Someone needs to appreciate that.
@SoloSideCousin

You are absolutely right.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by snufkin on Thu 9 Jun 2016 - 7:25

I'm listening to NIck Casey from the New York Time's interview on Fresh Air today because I've spent a little time in Venezuela and it's a weird/interesting place w/the attempts to replicate the Cuban revolution and how its economy is in freefall thanks to the dropping price of oil. Anyways, if you skip ahead part of the interview is about the FARC in Columbia, what motivates people to join, the values its members are forced to live under, and re-integrating into society now that there's supposed to be an end to the Civil War.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 9 Jun 2016 - 7:53

Sebastian Junger Ted Talk

I don't know how to imbed non-youtube videos, but this is from the same War and Peace Ted Talk where Adam Driver spoke. Junger speaks to the issue about veterans are very isolated in today's society with their trauma.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by snufkin on Fri 10 Jun 2016 - 2:40

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Mon 13 Jun 2016 - 8:00

Personally I don't think Kylo is coded as traumatized.

Reason #1 being that I doubt they'd take this kind of storytelling route for Star Wars. The last time someone tried to weave PTSD into their story was in the final season of The Legend Of Korra, and it really sucked lol. Because unless you have your character go crazy and aggressive at triggers, they'll look pretty weak, at best. It's just too complex to present on the big screen, without wasting lots of time presenting it over and over (and sometimes even that isn't enough - for example we saw the bowcaster 2 times in action, and still people thought that Kylo was just lightly injured during the final fight).

Reason #2 would be the way Adam Driver emphasizes on how his character believes to be right, and additionally in the newest interview how he admired Vader for his dedication to his cause. That's also another reason why I wouldn't go into irl psychology too much, he's not some standard bad cop or something like that.

thekylorencollection from tumblr put a lot of work into a meta/response to an inquisitive anon which I wholeheartedly agree with, but because it's pretty long I'll put it in a spoiler anyway:

Spoiler:

Kylo Ren never says, “yes, master” or ever calls Snoke “master,” while there have been many posts about how Anakin was always calling someone master, including Palpatine. (In fact, in the whole script, only droids are referred to as having masters (BB-8 and C-3PO) and Snoke calls Kylo Ren “Master of the Knights of Ren.”)

So, Kylo Ren may even be like a “master” to the Knights of Ren. It might be similar to the Jedi master/apprenticeship…. We still know almost nothing about the Knights of Ren, though.

Snoke and Kylo Ren aren’t Sith, so the master/apprentice relationship might not be what they have. We still don’t know what their relationship really is. Both General Hux and Kylo Ren refer to Snoke as the “Supreme Leader,” which implies something very different than calling him “master.” Both Hux and Kylo Ren have more freedom and power in Snoke’s presence than I think anyone in Emperor Palpatine’s presence had.

My guess/interpretation is that Snoke is like a chosen god or spiritual leader, because so much religious imagery and symbolism etc. is used. Kylo Ren says “the Supreme Leader is wise,” as if it is his choice to follow him and listen to his counsel. I think that the title “leader” implies that the followers choose to follow. However, since the stormtroopers are being kidnapped and trained as children, this is just an illusion of free-will…which makes it much more cult-ish. I don’t know a lot about cult dynamics, but I’m pretty sure it involves brainwashing, creating the illusion of choice. (and it is interesting that maybe the illusion of choice is what helped Finn actually say “no” to the first order. Also, idk if Finn ever had any semblance of familial relationships in the order, either, because in the before the awakening book, Finn felt he wasn’t as close to the other troopers. He felt alone. Phasma admired him, but he seemed to not feel a connection to her. The camaraderie failed him, which probably made it easier to defect. Kylo, on the other hand, has a close relationship with Snoke….)

And, in addition to Kylo Ren seeing Snoke as some sort of wise spiritual leader, Snoke is probably also like a father-figure to him, especially if Snoke has been involved in his life since he was a child. Master/slave relationships can be like father/son relationships, but I think Vader’s master/slave relationships were usually a little more detached and formal. Palpatine did not know him as long as Snoke probably knew Kylo. (When Kylo talks to Snoke it just feels like a child/parent relationship and when Vader talks to Palpatine it just feels like a slave/master relationship)

I think Snoke and Kylo’s relationship might be most like Anakin and Obi-wan’s relationship, actually. Anakin wasn’t Obi-wan’s slave, but he called him master and it is debatable how much of a choice Anakin really had when it came to joining the Jedi Order. The similarities I see are that Obi-wan was the closest thing to a father Anakin ever had. Snoke is like a replacement father to Kylo. Anakin often disobeys or challenges Obi-wan’s authority. To a lesser extent, Kylo does the same with Snoke. There is a lot of evidence of this:

“Careful, Ren. That your “personal interests” not interfere with orders from Leader Snoke.”



“SNOKE Even you, master of the Knights of Ren, have never faced such a test.

KYLO REN (steely resolve) By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced.

SNOKE We shall see. We shall see.”



KYLO REN Forgive me. I feel it again. The pull to the light. Supreme Leader senses it. Show me again, the power of the darkness, and I will let nothing stand in our way. Show me, Grandfather, and I will finish what you started.



“Kylo Ren hesitates to reveal the truth.

Then: GENERAL HUX (O.S.) Ren believed it was no longer valuable to us.

Ren turns back – Hux enters the large space, moves to the platform beside Ren.

GENERAL HUX (CONT’D) That the girl was all we needed. As a result, the droid has most likely been returned to the hands of the enemy. They may have the map already.

Snoke is visibly furious.

SNOKE Then the Resistance must be destroyed before they get to Skywalker.

GENERAL HUX We have their location. We tracked their reconnaissance ship to the Ileenium system.

SNOKE Good. Then we will crush them once and for all. Prepare the weapon.

Kylo Ren is stunned by the moment – that isn’t what he meant at all

-- KYLO REN Supreme Leader. I can get the map from the girl. I just need your guidance.

SNOKE If what you say about this girl is true, bring her to me.”



“KYLO REN Your son is gone. gone. He was weak and foolish, like his father. So I destroyed him.

HAN That’s what Snoke wants you to believe but it’s not true. My son is alive.

KYLO REN No. The Supreme Leader is wise.

HAN Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he’ll crush you – you know it’s true.

Kylo hesitates. Somehow, he does know it.

KYLO REN It’s too late.

HAN No it’s not. Leave here with me. Come home. We miss you.

For the first time, Kylo Ren seems truly conflicted. Tears flood his stoic eyes…

KYLO REN I’m being torn apart. I want to be free of this pain.”




So, how self-aware is Kylo Ren? How much free-choice does he have? I think that he has more “choice” that Anakin/Vader had, but that he might be less self-aware. If the brainwashing thing is canon…and to what extent…. It will really depend.

Most people seem to agree Kylo Ren does show lack of judgment and maturity and a dependence on Snoke that smacks of some sort of child-grooming, abuse, brainwashing, etc. So is that the same as slavery? In a lot of ways, yes, though it is not the kind of slavery in which someone is aware they are a slave.

Kylo Ren, I believe, tells himself that he is not a slave, that he has freedom of choice, and that he has chosen an important path. I think Snoke encourages that kind of false “independent” thinking in him. I also think a part of Kylo knows that he is stuck, trapped in a similar way to his grandfather, but he can hardly let himself believe that.

It is also interesting to note what Adam Driver thinks Kylo admires in Vader: The commitment. Also, the ambition, and the loyalty. The self-sacrifice in him. They’re all huge, epic things to live up to. Even as an audience member, we discovered Darth Vader first as someone who’s very in control and controlled and didn’t seem to waver whatsoever in his mission. That kind of dedication is something my character admires and wants to emulate. These are all traits that could essentially come from Vader being a slave basically all his life. Even the self-sacrifice…this also sounds like things a member of a cult might strive to be…. It sounds like Kylo probably didn’t have enough direction in life, enough guidance? And he craves it? He is so rebellious and chaotic though…but he seeks to tame himself? Vader was a slave all his life and maybe Kylo was so free that he had no guidance or direction, and sought slavery himself?? idk…we shall have to wait for his backstory….)

Darth Vader was very aware of his situation, and saw things very clearly, I believe. Kylo, on the other hand, is more a slave to the self-delusion encouraged by Snoke. Snoke risks giving Kylo some freedom, but just enough to keep him in his grasp. I think Snoke is playing a tricky mental game with Kylo Ren. Palpatine and Vader’s relationship was much more straight-forward.

tl;dr - Let me quote the character Sul from the Elder Scrolls novel "The Infernal City":
"Will any of these principles you adhere to [...] survive it?"
"Most simply turn away and continue with their delusions - only a few are forced to accept the truth."


Ren isn't stupid. Heavily influenced by Snoke, but he has more freedom over his choices and actions Vader ever had. He's just deluded, to some degree - he has a yet-to-be-identified-cause he believes is right, so of course he'll work to achieve his goal. And some things like the small massacre at Tuanul are - for fiction - very basic stuff. I doubt Tuanul was some act of cruelty or sadism, "just" a sacrifice for the greater good - something he might have learned with the Jedi, long before he fell for the dark side (which also aligns with Driver saying that there's a thin line between light and dark side). I know people would prefer the classic undoubtedly good people fighting against the undoubtedly bad people, but a simple storyline like that could never have taken about 2 years to plan and develope.

This is what would make a redemption so impressive if done right, Ren's entire view of life for the past few years is turned upside down; kind of like how Bolt realizes that he doesn't have superpowers and admits as much to Mittens. However, Ren's redemption would still be 'spiced up', since he has done a few things he will most likely regret after his entire persona changes. Not sure how they'd continue after this.

Last but not least, I find the whole argument "don't excuse his bad deeds boohooo" absolutely ridiculous. Again, this is fiction, and it's very easy to sway people's perception of the characters with just minor changes in the script. Assassin's Creed 3 did a good job with this - you start off as Haytham, everyone thinks he's an awesome guy, he's even one of the few people respectful towards the Native Americans - and then he's revealed to be a Templar, a bad guy. Later you play as Connor, a Native American, help everyone around a little too - good guy deeds. But damn, the people he helped ended up driving the Native peoples out of their homes and introducing slavery - not very good guy-ish at all. Fiction can cross all borders. Deal with it.

edit; Now that I think of it, I wouldn't put it beyond them to pull off something similar to the Assassin's Creed 3 storyline. It's the only way I can imagine why Rey wouldn't kill Kylo, or have a chat with him in a civil manner. Perhaps at some point she'll have a moment where she thinks "He does have a point" - could be done very easily, since it's basically been established that lots of politicians are greedy, selfish or power-hungry bastards.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by ZioRen on Mon 13 Jun 2016 - 11:19

@Rimfaxe96

Do you not think Anakin was coded as traumatized to some degree? Just based on your idea that they wouldn't go that route in Star Wars.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Mon 13 Jun 2016 - 20:14

@rimfaxe96

coded as traumatised isn't the same as portraying mental illness. i think his trauma is somewhat obvious, the source just isn't clear.

i don't think trauma negates his free will and his choices, i don't think that is ever in doubt. and i agree he displays some freedom, but he also displays a lot of conflict and anguish and grief and unhappiness, so he's presented as someone who in our world i would class as depressed.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Mon 13 Jun 2016 - 20:20

@solosidecousin

i don't have much military history in my family (except of course all males were drafted of course) and i know even less about the military in the US.

i wonder if vietnam made a difference because it wasn't crowned with a victory? and because it dragged on for so long?
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Mon 13 Jun 2016 - 20:36

@guardienne wrote:@solosidecousin

i don't have much military history in my family (except of course all males were drafted of course) and i know even less about the military in the US.

i wonder if vietnam made a difference because it wasn't crowned with a victory? and because it dragged on for so long?
@guardienne

And the returning vets were treated very badly. And American "aftercare" for our vets is horrible.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Mon 13 Jun 2016 - 20:42

@snufkin

this is so moving.

In most other cultures, soldiers had purification rights when returning home from war. These rites occurred in a broad spectrum of warriors that ranged from the Roman Centurion to the Navajo to the Medieval Knight. Perhaps most fascinating is that soldiers returning home from the Crusades were instructed to observe a period of purification that involved the Christian church and their community. Even though the Church had sanctioned the Crusades, they viewed taking another life as morally wrong and damaging to the souls of their knights.

“What you did was done in our name, at our request. We cannot bear your physical wounds, or psychological scars, but we can bear the moral responsibility with you. Your transgressions in war, they are our transgressions, too. We confess this together, and seek forgiveness together.”

i was just reading this as well: Warrior Transitions: From Combat to Social Contract

Warriors do not need assistance with transitions in and out of combat because their calling forces them to move between different moral spheres. In point of fact, warriors require transitional assistance because there is only one moral sphere, and their actions in war and peace are judged against the same set of values and principles. Warrior transitions are essential precisely because many of our troops admirably resist the temptation to ignore the morally troubling aspects of what they are asked to do on our behalf. They judge themselves to a greater or lesser degree to be violators of a social contract that is worth preserving. Therefore, they need some way to free themselves from anything they did or witnessed that seems incompatible with the values to which they are committed.

i think they need to understand that rationalisation doesn't actually alleviate anything. purification rituals are symbolic (mostly) and they have to be communal (hence The Theater of War).


Last edited by guardienne on Mon 13 Jun 2016 - 20:59; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Mon 13 Jun 2016 - 20:42

@slade but interestingly, your country keeps track of the suicides, mine doesn't.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Tue 14 Jun 2016 - 1:49

@ZioRen wrote:@Rimfaxe96

Do you not think Anakin was coded as traumatized to some degree? Just based on your idea that they wouldn't go that route in Star Wars.
@ZioRen

IMO, no. Influenced by Palpatine who knew how best to utilize Anakin's insecurities and fears, but not traumatized. But certainly under pressure, since he knew he was destined to be 'the Chosen One'.

@guardienne wrote:@rimfaxe96

coded as traumatised isn't the same as portraying mental illness. i think his trauma is somewhat obvious, the source just isn't clear.

i don't think trauma negates his free will and his choices, i don't think that is ever in doubt. and i agree he displays some freedom, but he also displays a lot of conflict and anguish and grief and unhappiness, so he's presented as someone who in our world i would class as depressed.

Depressed, perhaps. I'd personally classify that conflict in him as 'cognitive dissonance' rather than trauma; although he may have traumatized himself temporarily by killing Han. That act drove him pretty nuts, I wonder what the aftermath looked like (after the duel, after being picked up - who knows, maybe he now has something new to confess to Vader? Hurry up Episode 8!).
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Tue 14 Jun 2016 - 5:00

@rimfaxe96

i disagree.

he's already traumatised before he meets han.

it's how he walks, how he hides himself, how much he is wanting to control his environment. and he knows that he's in pain, not because he's going to commit murder, i don't think, because he's torn apart over his own nature. traumatised only means that he'S wounded in some way, and i would guess that feeling abandoned by his family is a wound in itself. but it's when he rejects han's offer that i think it is most obvious. he looks at himself as not worthy of the offer. that's trauma and we don't know why he's thinking that. i mean, i could reasonably infer that he's murdered people before and destroyed luke's work that might explain some of it as well.

he's deluded because he dismisses 'the call to the light' because he's turned his back on everything his family stands for and that is also puzzling. does he really believe that or not?

it's unprocessed trauma in the sense that he can't quite understand what tears him apart. and he is still wanting the pain to go away. my guess is that it won't ever, especially now. but he needs ot understand that he's causing it to himself as well.

anyway, i just found this



an oxford fellow discussing ajax and his lack of likeability. he keeps referring to the hero cult (that's another video in the same channel) and it made me think of kylo invoking vader to guide him. but other than that, sophocles had balls to write ajax like that, i guess. makes me want to see the play performed really.
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