Kylo coded as traumatized?

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Fri 17 Jun - 9:01

Part of it. Hell has many mansions.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Fri 17 Jun - 9:53

i'm just wondering because they are running into a paradox of all combat being traumatising and the dark side being traumatising but apparently not for the light side.

i would dearly like them to resolve that but within the franchise that could be a huge problem.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Fri 17 Jun - 19:33

In the medieval period, Christian theology carved out a space for war—what we now call “just war theory.” Nevertheless, killing was still considered a sin, even in a just war, even when lawful, even when the Church itself had directed you to do it. One of the more remarkable consequences of this belief is the Penitential Ordinance imposed on Norman knights who fought with William the Conqueror on Senlac Hill at the Battle of Hastings in 1066. “Anyone who knows that he killed a man in the great battle must do penance for one year for each man that he killed,” it proclaims, before moving forward and really getting into the weeds. If you wounded a man and aren’t sure he died, forty days penance. If you fought only for gain, it’s the same penance as if you’d committed a regular homicide. For archers, “who killed some and wounded others, but are necessarily ignorant as to how many,” three Lents worth of penance.

To modern, rational ears, there seems something bizarre, if not cruel about demanding something of men and then demanding penance for that same thing. And yet it is perhaps healthier both for the society that sends men to war and for the warriors themselves. Vietnam veteran Karl Marlantes, looking back on his time overseas, described himself “struggling with a situation approaching the sacred in its terror and contact with the infinite.” Though he didn’t know it then, what he desperately wanted was a spiritual guide. “We cannot expect normal eighteen-year-olds to kill someone and contain it in a healthy way. They must be helped to sort out what will be healthy grief about taking a life because it is part of the sorrow of war.”

This route might offer not only redemption, but also genuine growth as a human being. The philosopher and World War II veteran J. Glenn Gray wrote that for a soldier, “guilt can teach him, as few things else are able to, how utterly a man can be alienated from the very sources of his being. But the recognition may point the way to a reunion and a reconciliation with the varied forms of the created. … Atonement will become for him not an act of faith or a deed, but a life, a life devoted to strengthening the bonds between men and between man and nature.”

this is from the essay The Citizen-Soldier: Moral Risk and the Modern Military by an actual marine (who was deployed) and it's super good (should you have doubt).

i'm really excited and a bit unable to put it all together in my head properly but basically the atonement has to happen for the warrior regardless of how just their war is. even by the standards of the church and killing infidels it has to happen because it's still taking life (also see the other work i posted about the other day, warrior transitions).

i'm still not clear what redemption is and i'm even less clear on how it is distinctive from atonement. but here it is, a possibility for metaphorically dealing with rehabilitation (and i would argue that the metaphorical level is a very important one even in our so-called reality anyway).

Klay talks at length about the need for service. i love how this ties in with democratic processes and how much we need to follow them an engage with our world and countries and stuff basically.

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by ZenBrainJam on Fri 17 Jun - 22:14

Perhaps, atonement it's something you do all by yourself, redemption is something given to you, that you accept as a sort of gift, a salvation unattainable all by yourself.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by snufkin on Sun 19 Jun - 19:41

Carrie Fisher interview w/Charlie Rose

This is a really great discussion w/Carrie Fisher where she talks about mental illness, grief, ECT & addiction with her typical humor/smarts/bluntness.

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Sat 25 Jun - 13:26





for those who like their information in videos (i often do). in the first part he defines moral injury ... and the important thing seems to be abuse of power. so, his emphasis is on improving military leadership.

in the second part he talks more about how the military handles their people and their transition into civilian life. he believes that the military basically abandons people because they are no longer relevant to it.

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Mon 27 Jun - 20:37

oh god i think i have finally located the source of all the warrior purification stuff...

The Moral Treatment of Returning Warriors in Early Medieval and Modern Times by Bernard J. Verkamp - turns out it's been sat there under my nose and i have no idea why i didn't track it properly.

because i haven't found a full text version of this anywhere *sigh*, here's a link to a blog that describes it really well.

The author takes the time to delineate the difference between guilt and shame: “guilt is aroused by the transgression of boundaries set by the conscience and is accompanied by fear of reprisal, shame occurs when an idealized goal is not reached and carries with it the threat of abandonment. The experience of shame, therefore, is relative to what one is, to one’s plan of life, to what one aspires to do, and to those persons with whom one aspires to associate.” He adds: “Relief from shame will be sought by any kind of good work that will restore confidence in the excellence of one’s person, or in other words, purify one by returning him to that mode of being...most in keeping with the paramount ideal of the culture to which he belongs.”

Transgressions which gave rise to a sense of sin and guilt might also have generated a sense of shame, in that the soldier might have been mortified and disgraced by his sinful deeds.” Yet a soldier might experience shame but not experience guilt. One might have engaged in a just cause, but still feel shame due to his act against the sanctity of life and the Christian call to love one’s enemy.

...

Verkamp calls for us to go beyond a therapeutic approach by stating “soldiers returning from modern warfare might stand to gain considerably from the kind of examination of conscience,” namely a “moral evaluation of the soldiers’ past deeds on and off the battlefield.” This has to be a lot more than just swapping “war stories” which is often a way of avoiding painful memories or personal feelings connected to the experience of war. This must “’involve a deeper probing’ than psychotherapy is capable of by challenging the returning soldier to objectively “evaluate” their personal actions with reference to “the dictates of the just-war theory” and assess the consequences of their behavior in relationship to others.

The secular and religious benefits of such an examination of conscience might reveal that “’deeply held convictions’ have indeed been personally violated, with terribly ‘real and permanent’ consequences, like the death or maiming of innocent noncombatants, or the destruction of whole villages” and he may identify himself with a military force that was “mechanically ruthless” and share in its heedless “dedication to violence.”

i like how much this works towards reflection. for me reflection is a very important tool of learning and it's informed most of my practice of anything really.

and i like how this veers into a territory of seeing your part in a war that you didn't authorise, didn't intend, whether it may have been just or not ... if you refer back to the klay essay a few posts back or anything, i mean, nationalism isn't really something i understand greatly, and certainly not patriotism (for various reasons) and to think that people signed up because they decided that they wanted to play a part in the iraq war etc... and i can see that sense of idealism being betrayed and then what do you do? how does that feel to have participated in something that may have had good intentions etc, but ends up being a terrible mire.

and that's terrifically interesting.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Mon 27 Jun - 21:19

Yes. And what I tend to see in the US (I teach a lot of veterans and active duty servicepeople) is an unwillingness to examine the Official Narrative and an unwillingness to examine what has been done. I imagine that is true for most soldiers anywhere. And I think the extreme youth of soldiers is a factor, too. Taking it back to TFA, kylo was about 23 when he turned? That's a puppy, barely an adult (I'm not insulting him). Many people that young still don't have a solid idea of who they are; I think that would put them even more vulnerable to having their psyches damaged by armed conflict.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Tue 28 Jun - 19:25

i like to think that reflection requires a willingness and a capacity to confront areas of yourself, and actions that aren't comfortable. and that is something that a lot of people instinctively shy away from.

and from what i understand it also requires a capacity to look at all this mess without judgement. and i think for that to happen you have to have encountered a non-judgmental environment, unearthing trauma is best done with someone who can bear witness and i don't necessarily mean a trained therapist (i think there are enough stories or people being traumatised further by being rushed into exposing themselves). and i think a lot of people have never not encountered judgement.

that to me is the saddest indictment. that to so many people cannot imagine not to be judged. and to me that isn't something that you can really just pay lip-service to as a witness, that is something that you have to practise. although i have sometimes found myself saying it as well.

i do think that the mess around the war on terror and the general mess that the middle east has been, needs examining and reflecting from every level and it's disheartening that it's not happening.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 9 Jul - 12:34

Jakku wrote:@slade Interesting that you mentioned Han's look of disgust whenever he saw Ben. I saw it as wariness and guilty fascination, but certainly not a look of love. I was also struck by the expression on Han's face when Maz produced the sabre for them down in the dungeon. His "Where did you get that?" had an edge to it, and he stared at it while Maz was talking to Finn. It occurred to me that, if he thought the sabre to have been in Ben's possession, the fact that Maz had it might mean that Ben was dead, or not in a position to defend his possessions. At that point he hadn't seen Kylo on the battlefield.

When Leia arrived, the first thing Han said was "I saw him. He was here." To me, Han sounded worried and possibly scared. "Along with 'too much Vader' in him", I thought it was possible that Han had been deeply afraid of his own son. Certainly he wasn't reluctant to make a raid on SKB, which would quite possibly end in the death of his son. And the death of Rey, which he was also willing to encompass as collateral damage ("He would have disappointed you"). It was only when they got onto SKB and Finn made his mission clear, that Han agreed not to leave without her.

So, is it at all possible that Han had been s***-scared of his powerful son, keen to stay away from him (and therefore from Leia), and more than happy to offload him to Luke? Did something happen between them that pushed Ben over the edge? (Which would be ironic, given how Han ended up.)

@Jakku

That's just the impression I had - Han was afraid of Ben, which might have accounted for why he spent so much time training 'normal' children, all of which of course would add to his son's loneliness and feeling of rejection, as shown in his 'he would have disappointed you' speech(the look of hurt on Driver's face here made a big impression on me.) The deleted scene in which Kylo found the Falcon is another scene where you could practically feel Kylo's pain as he stood hugging his father's seat - he loved his dad very much, I think, love and hate are so similar.

I remember years ago reading a novel about a young woman of mixed race growing up in a northern England town in the 1920s, and enduring all the cruelty and bigotry rife in those days. One poignant part had the girl reflecting on how her white mother sometimes looked at her as if she wasn't seeing her, she was seeing her black father. In short, although the girl's mother loved her daughter, she couldn't quite put aside the prejudices of her race and the society she'd been raised in.

Han had always distrusted the Force, perhaps having a son so gifted in the Force both disturbed and disappointed him, even although he still loved his son.

I can't help but wonder what might have happened if Han had actually told Kylo he was sorry for how he had lacked as a father, what might have happened then?
The words of the old U2 'One' come to mind..... Sad Sad


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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Sat 9 Jul - 17:56

If Han had apologized, we may have had a very different story. I think part of what Kylo meant when he said "It's too late" is that it was too late for han to waltz back into kylo's life and expect kylo to accept him when han had not made the slightest effort to acknowledge his own behavior.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 9 Jul - 18:17

Slade wrote:If Han had apologized, we may have had a very different story. I think part of what Kylo meant when he said "It's too late" is that it was too late for han to waltz back into kylo's life and expect kylo to accept him when han had not made the slightest effort to acknowledge his own behavior.
@Slade

That's what I thought.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Sun 10 Jul - 11:00

i think it's late because kylo's made up his mind and because han's taken too long to take this step.

great song choice @motherofpearl1

i love how the scenes hints so fully at their relationship without making their history it explicit.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by ZioRen on Sun 10 Jul - 15:11

guardienne wrote:i think it's late because kylo's made up his mind and because han's taken too long to take this step.

great song choice @motherofpearl1

i love how the scenes hints so fully at their relationship without making their history it explicit.
@guardienne

I can see that line having multiple roots. One in Han being too late to reach out this hand and change Kylo's trajectory. The other being that he does think it's too late for him to ever go back even if he wanted to, even if part of him is clawing at him to do so. Considering everything he's done and gone through with Snoke, it's not surprising that he'd think that.

It's telling that he says "it's too late" instead of a direct denial of Snoke's real plans, since this line is right after Han talks about Snoke just using him.

And yeah, I've seen people complain that Kylo's relationship with his parents wasn't explained/fleshed out enough in TFA (especially with Han, considering he killed him), but there was actually quite a lot revealed even beyond the bit of exposition we got. You just have to pay attention!
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by panki on Sun 10 Jul - 15:39

I was going through some of the SW novels again and I'm throwing this idea out there....

From the Aftermath Part II excerpt, we find out Ben is strong in the force and on the light side....In Bloodline, we know Ben was this happy child running around etc.... then we have a gap where Ben was studying with Luke and traveling around the galaxy....then in Bloodline, Leia is particularly disturbed at the idea of Ben finding out about Vader being his grandfather in such a public manner and her not having a chance to tell him privately...and in TFA, Han tells Leia that if Luke couldn't reach Kylo, how could he.

Could it be a little similar to the episode of Ben Skywalker and the Killik in the EU...where Ben listended to it in innocence but it had plans to turn Ben against his mother?

Most parents find it hard to send their children to become jedi and am sure Han and Leia were no exception (particularly Han)...something must have happened which compelled Leia to believe Ben Solo was safer with Luke than with Han and her. Snoke was watching Ben from infancy.....Leia might have realised something was wrong and sent young Ben away....and Han didn't oppose it (even the novel and comics reveal Han always listened to Leia) They probably wanted Luke to reach out to him since he was also FS and help him find his way....something Han felt he was not capable of.

It would also explain why Leia was worried about Ben's reaction.... whatever happened during childhood that made her send Ben away might be related to Vader/ the Imperials etc. I think there might even have been moles in Luke's new order who continued the brainwashing of Ben behind the scenes while his parents and uncle remained oblivious.....Snoke must have been constantly reaching out to Ben directly or indirectly, and things came to a head with the Vader reveal..

This is one scenario where Luke, Han and Leia would emerge as people with good intentions and Kylo isnt the big villain.

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 10 Jul - 15:42

panki wrote:I was going through some of the SW novels again and I'm throwing this idea out there....

From the Aftermath Part II excerpt, we find out Ben is strong in the force and on the light side....In Bloodline, we know Ben was this happy child running around etc.... then we have a gap where Ben was studying with Luke and traveling around the galaxy....then in Bloodline, Leia is particularly disturbed at the idea of Ben finding out about Vader being his grandfather in such a public manner and her not having a chance to tell him privately...and in TFA, Han tells Leia that if Luke couldn't reach Kylo, how could he.

Could it be a little similar to the episode of Ben Skywalker and the Killik in the EU...where Ben listended to it in innocence but it had plans to turn Ben against his mother?

Most parents find it hard to send their children to become jedi and am sure Han and Leia were no exception (particularly Han)...something must have happened which compelled Leia to believe Ben Solo was safer with Luke than with Han and her. Snoke was watching Ben from infancy.....Leia might have realised something was wrong and sent young Ben away....and Han didn't oppose it (even the novel and comics reveal Han always listened to Leia) They probably wanted Luke to reach out to him since he was also FS and help him find his way....something Han felt he was not capable of.

It would also explain why Leia was worried about Ben's reaction.... whatever happened during childhood that made her send Ben away might be related to Vader/ the Imperials etc. I think there might even have been moles in Luke's new order who continued the brainwashing of Ben behind the scenes while his parents and uncle remained oblivious.....Snoke must have been constantly reaching out to Ben directly or indirectly, and things came to a head with the Vader reveal..

This is one scenario where Luke, Han and Leia would emerge as people with good intentions and Kylo isnt the big villain.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by panki on Sun 10 Jul - 15:52

@motherofpearl1 .... here is another thought... what if, in a throwback to Palpatine's manipulation of the jedi council and a young Anakin Skywalker, Snoke is the one who suggested to Leia that young Ben should be sent to Luke... knowing that he would have greater access to him once he was far away from his parents... it would explain why Snoke calls leia by her first name but Luke by his complete name... he knew Leia personally..... Evil or Very Mad

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 10 Jul - 16:08

panki wrote:@motherofpearl1 .... here is another thought... what if, in a throwback to Palpatine's manipulation of the jedi council and a young Anakin Skywalker, Snoke is the one who suggested to Leia that young Ben should be sent to Luke... knowing that he would have greater access to him once he was far away from his parents... it would explain why Snoke calls leia by her first name but Luke by his complete name... he knew Leia personally..... Evil or Very Mad
@panki

That's actually a good theory. Leia certainly knew Snoke...and maybe trusted him. Neutral
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Sun 10 Jul - 16:20

I got the impression she knew him.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 10 Jul - 17:19

motherofpearl1 wrote:
panki wrote:@motherofpearl1 .... here is another thought... what if, in a throwback to Palpatine's manipulation of the jedi council and a young Anakin Skywalker, Snoke is the one who suggested to Leia that young Ben should be sent to Luke... knowing that he would have greater access to him once he was far away from his parents... it would explain why Snoke calls leia by her first name but Luke by his complete name... he knew Leia personally..... Evil or Very Mad
@panki

That's actually a good theory. Leia certainly knew Snoke...and maybe trusted him. Neutral
@motherofpearl1

This would not surprise me at all. I'd kind of gotten the same impression.

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Tue 23 Aug - 19:06

let's resurrect this one with a lengthy quote from shay's book achilles in vietnam...



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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Thu 8 Sep - 17:38



doerries discusses the use of tragedy after a performance of philoctetes.

some of this really hits home with my concept of kylo as person who's moral values have been compromised. doerries discusses neoptolemus becoming corrupted through the order of having to trick and leave philoctetes behind.

this is the performance.



here's an interesting write-up of what we know so far about the masacre of the new jedi order. the most corrupting betrayal would have come through leadership i.e. luke. i just can't work out how that would have been.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 8 Sep - 17:52

There is definitely something off about the whole thing... confused
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 8 Sep - 19:02

guardienne wrote:

doerries discusses the use of tragedy after a performance of philoctetes.

some of this really hits home with my concept of kylo as person who's moral values have been compromised. doerries discusses neoptolemus becoming corrupted through the order of having to trick and leave philoctetes behind.

this is the performance.



here's an interesting write-up of what we know so far about the masacre of the new jedi order. the most corrupting betrayal would have come through leadership i.e. luke. i just can't work out how that would have been.
@guardienne

I cannot listen to the Doerries videos right now because of where I am, but I was able to read the tumblr essay you linked ... and Holy Sith!!!! I never even considered a corrupt Republic (or factions within the Republic) ordering "the hit" on the Jedi temple.  But actually that would make a lot of sense for a lot of reasons, as she states.  It would also account for Kylo's sense of trauma *and* for his total loathing for the Republic as "murderers, traitors and thieves."  @panki has an interesting theory that Kylo might carry survivor's guilt because he was acting as a temple guard at the Jedi "temple".  She bases this in part on the fact that the script repeatedly emphasizes that Kylo's lightsaber is "yellow-red".  Yellow is the lightsaber color of temple guards and it represents intrigue.   She has other supporting components for the theory, but she could explain them better.  However, the Republic wanting to stop this "super-army" in its tracks (both Populists and FO-supporting Centrists would want this, just for different reasons), makes a lot of sense.  It could have easily been a Snoke-engineered plan via some infiltration, but Kylo would have seen "Republic people" doing the killing.  And if he couldn't save these people as he was supposed to, the guilt would be enormous.  But what if in all this, someone ends up "saving" him and/or spiriting him away and thus bringing him to the FO.  I don't know if any of it went down like this, but this option presents another whole set of possibilities. I actually really like corrupt Republic angle. The books have been showing a lot more realism lately. I hope that some of that comes into the movies.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 8 Sep - 22:31

SoloSideCousin wrote:
guardienne wrote:

doerries discusses the use of tragedy after a performance of philoctetes.

some of this really hits home with my concept of kylo as person who's moral values have been compromised. doerries discusses neoptolemus becoming corrupted through the order of having to trick and leave philoctetes behind.

this is the performance.



here's an interesting write-up of what we know so far about the masacre of the new jedi order. the most corrupting betrayal would have come through leadership i.e. luke. i just can't work out how that would have been.
@guardienne

I cannot listen to the Doerries videos right now because of where I am, but I was able to read the tumblr essay you linked ... and Holy Sith!!!! I never even considered a corrupt Republic (or factions within the Republic) ordering "the hit" on the Jedi temple.  But actually that would make a lot of sense for a lot of reasons, as she states.  It would also account for Kylo's sense of trauma *and* for his total loathing for the Republic as "murderers, traitors and thieves."  @panki has an interesting theory that Kylo might carry survivor's guilt because he was acting as a temple guard at the Jedi "temple".  She bases this in part on the fact that the script repeatedly emphasizes that Kylo's lightsaber is "yellow-red".  Yellow is the lightsaber color of temple guards and it represents intrigue.   She has other supporting components for the theory, but she could explain them better.  However, the Republic wanting to stop this "super-army" in its tracks (both Populists and FO-supporting Centrists would want this, just for different reasons), makes a lot of sense.  It could have easily been a Snoke-engineered plan via some infiltration, but Kylo would have seen "Republic people" doing the killing.  And if he couldn't save these people as he was supposed to, the guilt would be enormous.  But what if in all this, someone ends up "saving" him and/or spiriting him away and thus bringing him to the FO.  I don't know if any of it went down like this, but this option presents another whole set of possibilities. I actually really like corrupt Republic angle. The books have been showing a lot more realism lately. I hope that some of that comes into the movies.
@SoloSideCousin

I agree! That essay poses a very interesting theory. It's a little complex, but it would certainly explain a lot of things quite easily.


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