Kylo coded as traumatized?

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Thu 26 May - 2:34

I may have to go watch that movie now.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Thu 26 May - 2:42

That movie looks enticing! Interesting article, too; thanks for linking it. The characters who are "mad, bad, and dangerous to know" are just so much more interesting than Hollywood's usual fare.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by panki on Thu 26 May - 3:33

This thread has some beautiful posts with such incredible insights into what Kylo might have gone through and his complex emotions....I appreciate how much effort has gone into writing his character and story so much more now....

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by panki on Thu 26 May - 6:02

@Kylo Ren wrote:@panki
That is such a beautifull thing to say on a Thursday....
I agree....completely....I love how smart we are here on this forum Razz
@Kylo Ren

And modest as well...j/k  Wink Razz

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by SanghaRen on Thu 26 May - 6:08

@Kylo Ren wrote:
@Mana wrote:When people say they relate to heroes, they don't really...they just wish they were like them. At the end of the day, people will realise the character that they relate to the most is the one who ultimately seeks out redemption from a lifetime of mistakes and has the greatest transformational arc, and not the embellished heroes who can do no wrong. They just don't know it yet....
@Mana

I relate to Kylo Ren....what does that say about me?
My childhood was not traumatizing.....if you exclude the fact I felt out of place (and time) all of the time....
There was no Snoke and I had loving parents....that hated eachothers guts, but stayed married for the sake of the kids....which is IMO wrong in so many levels....all of them I'd say....guess why I have issues with hypocrisy....

I can totally see Han unfit to deal with Ben's issues....he is a man who runs away from the uncomfortable....probably the only time when he was worthy of his son's love was when he stepped on that bridge and called: "Ben!!" Because it was probably the bravest thing he did in his life. I think Han was affraid of Kylo, in that moment and all other moments...of Ben too....because he did not understand him...couldn't relate and could not help....thus felt ashamed that he masked with estrangement that in cycle caused more of Ben's lonelyness.....I always felt a reluctance in Han to try to get through his son...lack of confidence....when Leia asks him to bring him back....I used to think that is because of one speciffic bad thing that Han did in the past that only Ben knew about, but now I feel it's that failure to understand and relate to his child is what Han asked for when hoping for forgivness....But in death...I feel Han redeems himself....putting his son before himself for once in his life....After surprise on his face the first thing I see is relief....then unconditional love that was missing in all other looks in TFA followed by returned forgivness....
This must be the act and the moment that redeems Kylo....he can't do bad sith no more....his atonement must start next...because now there is no more excuses....he is not in shock any more after Rey wakes him up by taking him down.....

I guess what I wanted to say is....the sin of Han and Leia imo is that they left their son to feel alone....can that be the cause of his mental illnes...or his mental ilness is just a condition caused by alienation and lonelines coupled with Snoke's interference? what exactly happened in Solo family? Will we see that...is it understandable? How can you console your child if you don't understand his struggles....Is holding someone tight in your embrace ever enough to vanquish the s*** you did and betrayal you caused? There are no right paths to choose, I suppose....or all of them are right...for someone....Humans should not have children...we don't know well how to selfsacrifice...our egoes always come first...even before our children....except if you're a Jesus....but then again he didn't have children....

I feel this to be more of Leia's failure then Han's...she is a Force sensitive....but sometimes so very blind? Is it because she uses only the light side?
Also...
Is this movie really this deep or are we in all honesty just making it to be so with all of our head canons?
If any of what is written in this thread has any base in reality then killing Kylo off would have some dreaded ramifications....like the killing of hope that things will change and not all is bleak for so many hypersensitive people outthere.....
@Kylo Ren

Beautiful post. The parts in bold I relate to a lot.

1. I don't do well with hypocrisy and it gets me into trouble because people want to keep their masks on.

2. Leaving your kid to feel alone is imo the worse thing - it's part of my story too, surrounded by people but feeling alone.

3. Those thoughts are probably not making you too popular Smile I have wondered myself on how we raise children in our society - should add that I have no children. Somehow our traditional family model does not seem to be very successful. I had once a debate on whether kids should be raised more as part of a community as opposed to part of the traditional Disney-like family that seems to be doomed one day to explode or remain in its own vicious frustration circle. I am sure that there are happy traditional families, but how many? It's a difficult debate because I don't have children so I am usually dismissed. And if I had children, I'd be called the worse mother! I guess my problem is again hypocrisy. A lot of people seem to hang on to the (false?) glory of the traditional family model instead of opening themselves up to new ideas that could help everyone especially children. I don't have a solution, but I hate it when people keep lying to themselves.

4. I really wondered about that one too. Big time. Kylo has a heavy weight on his shoulder. His fans are looking up to his redemption as a validation of their own solitude and darkest feelings. I guess there's always a danger to become too attached to a fictional character especially in the first part of a trilogy. I have decided to trust Adam Driver and the way he plays Kylo on this. The story will probably not go exactly how I want it to go, but AD played him with a lot of suffering so I'll trust him to follow up on it.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 26 May - 6:21

@Kylo Ren wrote:
@Mana wrote:When people say they relate to heroes, they don't really...they just wish they were like them. At the end of the day, people will realise the character that they relate to the most is the one who ultimately seeks out redemption from a lifetime of mistakes and has the greatest transformational arc, and not the embellished heroes who can do no wrong. They just don't know it yet....
@Mana

I relate to Kylo Ren....what does that say about me?
My childhood was not traumatizing.....if you exclude the fact I felt out of place (and time) all of the time....
There was no Snoke and I had loving parents....that hated eachothers guts, but stayed married for the sake of the kids....which is IMO wrong in so many levels....all of them I'd say....guess why I have issues with hypocrisy....

I can totally see Han unfit to deal with Ben's issues....he is a man who runs away from the uncomfortable....probably the only time when he was worthy of his son's love was when he stepped on that bridge and called: "Ben!!" Because it was probably the bravest thing he did in his life. I think Han was affraid of Kylo, in that moment and all other moments...of Ben too....because he did not understand him...couldn't relate and could not help....thus felt ashamed that he masked with estrangement that in cycle caused more of Ben's lonelyness.....I always felt a reluctance in Han to try to get through his son...lack of confidence....when Leia asks him to bring him back....I used to think that is because of one speciffic bad thing that Han did in the past that only Ben knew about, but now I feel it's that failure to understand and relate to his child is what Han asked for when hoping for forgivness....But in death...I feel Han redeems himself....putting his son before himself for once in his life....After surprise on his face the first thing I see is relief....then unconditional love that was missing in all other looks in TFA followed by returned forgivness....
This must be the act and the moment that redeems Kylo....he can't do bad sith no more....his atonement must start next...because now there is no more excuses....he is not in shock any more after Rey wakes him up by taking him down.....

I guess what I wanted to say is....the sin of Han and Leia imo is that they left their son to feel alone....can that be the cause of his mental illnes...or his mental ilness is just a condition caused by alienation and lonelines coupled with Snoke's interference? what exactly happened in Solo family? Will we see that...is it understandable? How can you console your child if you don't understand his struggles....Is holding someone tight in your embrace ever enough to vanquish the s*** you did and betrayal you caused? There are no right paths to choose, I suppose....or all of them are right...for someone....Humans should not have children...we don't know well how to selfsacrifice...our egoes always come first...even before our children....except if you're a Jesus....but then again he didn't have children....

I feel this to be more of Leia's failure then Han's...she is a Force sensitive....but sometimes so very blind? Is it because she uses only the light side?
Also...
Is this movie really this deep or are we in all honesty just making it to be so with all of our head canons?
If any of what is written in this thread has any base in reality then killing Kylo off would have some dreaded ramifications....like the killing of hope that things will change and not all is bleak for so many hypersensitive people outthere.....
@Kylo Ren

Somehow you just got to my point and how I am seeing it.
I ll answer you by sticking my thought in SW universe, however.
Yes you are right: Leia herself is the child of both dark and light (Anakin/Vader) - and she constantly refuses to recognize Vader in herself - aka the "dark side".
Han is Han he accept himself the way he is. He is completely aware of himself - and probably due to that he was able to do the ultimate sacrifice.
Leia has a lot of virtues herself, and the audience tend to see her as a flawless hero (that was the mistake GL made with her character in the OT )- she was planned to be as a character somebody completely different - however due to changes she ended as a Skywalker - which requests completely different approach to a character and what is more it requests more depth to it, all of which resulted  in her character being somehow underdeveloped by the end of ROTS.
Hopefully, with Bloodline, and EP VIII the team behind it would bring balance to her character. At least I hope so

Out of SW universe: Raising children requests a maturity. Both mentally and emotionally. Many kids are victims of the immature parenthood and it is sad. But, you know that is part of a life. And there is no a perfect parenthood. Because every human being has its flaws and virtues at the same time.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by SanghaRen on Thu 26 May - 7:58

@Kylo Ren

Thank you for your kind words on my potential parenting skills. We'll never know because I won't have any. I have an aspect in my birth chart that indicates that the subject carries a childhood wound and is usually the one who is very good with children, but will never have any himself/herself. I wish sometimes that astrology was full of sith, but somehow it ends up true. Damn planets. But, that's life.

I am not sure if they will stay with the traumatized son "only" or add layers to it to make it more believable to the audience that's not willing to consider the complexity of parent/child relationships. But they seem to have positioned the story in such a way already that it's difficult to see them chicken out now without making the story look bad. Loving but absent parents. Conflicted kid with a gift that maybe he does not even want. Predator lurking. Big family lie. If on top of that you have a lunatic uncle - we have to wait and see for that one -, well if that's not a recipe for disaster, I don't know what is.

It's true that they have reduced the hints to this disaster recipe in TFA, so some people did not pick up on it consciously. But, I feel like they only need a few shots showing Kylo's loneliness as a teenager, how Snoke preyed on him, and other meaningful moments to change the perspective. I could see VIII showing Kylo as playing big bad wolf for a great part of the movie with some shots of his struggles as a teenager or even child - through Luke telling it or Leia remembering moments or Rey dreaming about them -> not sure how. That would completely confuse the audience. Especially if you get the backstory through someone else's eyes while Kylo seems to be entrenched in his dark side.  And then bang, Kylo does something incredibly good. People cheering!!!
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Reynak on Thu 26 May - 10:45

@Maria Antonietta wrote:
@Jakku wrote:@slade  Interesting that you mentioned Han's look of disgust whenever he saw Ben.  I saw it as wariness and guilty fascination, but certainly not a look of love.  I was also struck by the expression on Han's face when Maz produced the sabre for them down in the dungeon. His "Where did you get that?" had an edge to it, and he stared at it while Maz was talking to Finn. It occurred to me that, if he thought the sabre to have been in Ben's possession, the fact that Maz had it might mean that Ben was dead, or not in a position to defend his possessions.  At that point he hadn't seen Kylo on the battlefield.

When Leia arrived, the first thing Han said was "I saw him.  He was here."  To me, Han sounded worried and possibly scared.  "Along with 'too much Vader' in him", I thought it was possible that Han had been deeply afraid of his own son.  Certainly he wasn't reluctant to make a raid on SKB, which would quite possibly end in the death of his son. And the death of Rey, which he was also willing to encompass as collateral damage ("He would have disappointed you").  It was only when they got onto SKB and Finn made his mission clear, that Han agreed not to leave without her.

So, is it at all possible that Han had been s***-scared of his powerful son, keen to stay away from him (and therefore from Leia), and more than happy to offload him to Luke? Did something happen between them that pushed Ben over the edge? (Which would be ironic, given how Han ended up.)

@Jakku

Han never believed in the force c**p. I feel like he really gave up on his son. When he said "there's too much Vader in him", I felt completely shocked.
@Maria Antonietta

Mee too, I was also shocked at the theatre when Han said that. It was so harsh! Kylo has done terrible things but as a mother, it shocked me that Han sounded as he had dismissed and (nearly?)disowned his son, his flesh and blood, as a hopeless irredeemable freak of nature. HF delivered the words so well they shocked me, those words gave me the chills because they were not only about how bad that young man was, but about how his own father had given up on him for ever (or so it seemed) and considered he and everyone had done enough for that stray freak, that he had been born damaged, a bad seed. " There was too much Vader in him". Terrible.

Did he say there was or there is? Because saying that in past tense suggests even more detachment. The boy is never called by his name until Han sees him on that catwalk, he is just "he, him, our son". It's as if saying his name was something they avoided. Han also said to Leia she saw his son in him when she looked at him as if it was hard for her to remember her own child.

All this is so tragic, and then we have the references to Snoke stalking Kylo as a child, this made many people including myself think Ben Solo stood no chances as he was preyed upon as a kid and his family didn't realise what was so wrong until it was too late. Leia sent him to Luke because there was something seriously wrong with the boy and she thought Luke could help him. This means he was in danger when he was sent to Luke and already damaged to some extent. This is why it seems so strange to read that he fell at 23. It seems to enter in contradiction with the idea JJ and Adam's words projected. Why was abandonment and neglect an issue at 23? I think that he should have fallen before or gotten over those issues.

Are they trying to reconcile two different ideas?

Like @Darth Dingbat, I suspect this may have happened and it may be difficult to make both vibes work. He worked as a traumatised youth that could have lived a horribe experience at 23 but then those references to the predator stalking him since birth and his abandonment issues seem pointless. Why were they mentioned?

If I had to write a backstory for him, I'd have chosen one idea or the other but never both. They don't go very well as a combination narratively speaking because one diminishes the dramatism and impact of the other. He could have been able to resist until something terrible happened, it's true, but why making the story so complicated?

I also have this idea that perhaps he didn't initially fall but set off on some sort of mission which required training and inmersion in the DS and the FO ranks. This could have happened when he was 23. He has obviously committed crimes, although the ones we saw on screen were acts of war. They were horrible acts anyway and his soul has been damaged and tainted by the things he's done. He might have had an initial plan but ended up trapped in the DS and with no way out or back. This could explain why he insists on staying where he is so clearly miserable. He might think this mission is more important than himself because when Han told him Snoke will crush him when he is done with him he didn't deny it. It was as if he had accepeted he (probably) won't survive when his mission is fulfilled.

But why did he seem brainwashed when he talked to Han then, when he said Snoke was wise? What are we supposed to infer, that he has agency and turned at 23 for some mysterious reason and thinks he has to achieve a goal he considers necessary? Does he really have agency or was he brainwashed and manipulated? What are we supposed to believe?

In TFA he seemed traumatised and manipulated, immature as if he hadn't evolved as a normal person and now, are we expected to believe he turned at 23? Brainwashed at 23? How did neglect cause his turning at 23?

Sorry for the ranting, but it's difficult for me to accept all this makes sense, all these things that seem to contradict one another.

Fairy tales require suspension of disbelief but they still have to feel convincing and they shouldn't require an effort on the viewers trying to make everything add up when it seems it doesn't. And SW is not just a fairy tale, especially TFA, where that scene on the catwalk felt like a Shakespearean, or rather a Greek tragedy. Not that I don't consider fairy tales important, far from it, but they don't follow the same rules as tragedies. The Skywalker family in TFA are living a tragedy that reminds me of something written by Sophocles whereas Finn has a past just as tragic but behaves as an unpretentious adventure flick funny main character and Rey doesn't find her place as a solid heroine because she seems light and superficial as a character when with Finn but deep and much more interesting and fleshed-out when with Kylo.

It's as if JJ didn't make up his mind on which genre TFA should adhere to, as if we were watching two different movies depending on the scenes on screen. This is confusing and probably the reason why so many people read the story wrong.


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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by snufkin on Thu 26 May - 11:30

@Slade wrote:That movie looks enticing! Interesting article, too; thanks for linking it. The characters who are "mad, bad, and dangerous to know" are just so much more interesting than Hollywood's usual fare.
@Slade

Most people have a love or hate reaction to the original book because it's 800+ pages with extensive footnotes, but a lawyer probably is used to that. The author builds an original world on the scale of the SW trilogy and references as many different literary/folkloric/fairy tale/Biblical tropes. The BBC adaption wasn't well received last year, but as a fan of the book (and the author has had to retire to health problems, so she scrapped the follow up), I completely enjoyed it.



I'm interested if they also follow one of her themes about gender/race/social class. It's similar in that you have Magic as a power wielded by a priviledged few (white, upper-class men) and part of what happens through the story is that as it grows Wild/Dangerous, "Magic starts to come back." Characters are touched by it, destroyed or driven mad by it. But there are characters who are women, PoC, working class/poor, who start to become closer to gaining that power, which also upsets the established social order. I'm curious how far they'll run with Rey being both a woman and poor as one of the most powerful FS individuals in this world.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Reynak on Thu 26 May - 12:57

Wow @Snufkin, what a fantastic article you have linked, thanks for sharing it. I loved it. Very Happy
And it's absolutely relevant to the topic, LOL. We love Kylo because he is more human and thus vulnerable than your typical macho man who is always right and doesn't need anyone, has no doubts, existential crises or insecurities. They aren't relatable, at least not for me, while Kylo brings out the protective streak all of us have without losing any of his manly appeal. He can be both strong and sensitive, vulnerable and dangerous. It's no wonder we love him the way we do.

I also want to say this thread is fantastic and I've enjoyed everybody's posts an awful lot. They are all fantastic, guys. cheers bounce


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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by snufkin on Thu 26 May - 13:04

@reynak full credit for that article goes to a friend who used it for part of her Master's Thesis in English Literature on the Romantics. She's always good for jokes about Lord Byron or Percy Blythe Shelley.

http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php/index.php?id=56



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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Macha Ren on Thu 26 May - 13:11

I've been trying to reconcile what Han said to Leia and his interactions with their son since I saw the film.

I also tried to get some of my thoughts down in print in my above post.

But I wan to start with the assertion that Han wasn't the best father, but he wasn't a bad father. And he tried his best.

Yet it was in these insecurities and inadequacies where Snoke slipped in and exploited an element of familial dysfunction and used it as a weapon to distance Ben from Han.

I'm going to ignore the garbage in Bloodlines that Han was only in the household half of the year (wasn't he some racer or something equally lame.) I don't like the tie-in novels as canon. It is what it is. But I think my assertions ring true without this backstory.

Anyhow, if Ben was born "shortly after Endor" that mean there is a good chance he was conceived somewhere between Han's rescue on Tatooine or in the events following the victory at Endor. ?So there is the distinct possibility she was pregnant during the second half of ROTJ. In other words, Ben's conception caught them off guard and they were barely a couple yet, let alone ready for the responsibilities of co-parenting. Leia was still fairly young and her career with the Rebel Alliance/New Republic was her priority. Han was still trying to figure out his role in the post-war Republic as well as his life with a pregnant girlfriend. Their lives, needless to say were messy.

Han and Leia weren't neglectful parents but it sounds like they were absent full-time career parents who didn't quite find the work/life balance (I'll admit I've failed in that at times in my kids' life.) If Leia was a full-time politician, there's a good chance Ben was raised by a nanny. So if Han was not always in Ben's life, did they ever truly have substantial bonding? Han obviously loves his son very much, but did Ben properly bond with his father? And if Han wasn't there when Snoke started up, Ben may perceive things as either his father couldn't, wouldn't or wasn't around to protect him.

Throw in Han's skepticism for the Force (I think his who confession that "All of it is Real" in TFA was his way of mournfully admitting that the dark side of the force was real and destroyed his son) probably didn't help things. In the OT, he outward disdain at times for the Force. That might have scared him when a young Ben started displaying innate Force abilities. In the most benign sense, Han would not want his son to be seen as different than the others. From a protective standpoint, he may have wanted to keep that a secret to protect a young Ben. From a more malignant standpoint, he couldn't relate to his own son and saw him as a freak like Aunt Petunia did with her nephew Harry Potter.

So regardless of his reaction to his son's Force abilities, he likely always had the fear of his son having "Too much Vader in him." Whether it was verbalized or not, it may subconsciously cause Han to distance himself a bit from Ben. After all, Vader is the one who had him tortured then frozen in carbonite in ESB. Kids pick up on the distance. Ben probably didn't know why, but likely felt that his father held him at a comfortable distance after he started displaying subtle Force abilities.

And then there's Han's demeanor. While we all love the bad boy scoundrel from the films, that may not translate into effective parenting skills. Han is snide, sarcastic, and aserbic. He is a hot head (Exhibit A: his argument with Leia in the Ewok bridge when he stomps away in a jealous huff.) He often acts first, thinks later. Does that mean he beat his son? Not in the least. But he probably snapped at Ben as he grew older, was quick to anger and was likely the bad cop to Leia's good cop when it came to discipline.

Enter Snoke who has kept a running tally of brewing father-son conflict with that rift at its largest when Ben was an adolescent (as it is with all adolescents.) He likely upped the ante until Ben actively saw his father as an enemy. I've long thought it was quite striking that the only person Kylo views with hatred and animosity in TFA is his father. He does not seem to carry that hatred for his mother (at least from what we saw.)

So as Ben grew, Snoke exploited that rift, whispering things to Ben such as I understand you, you father does not. I love you more than your father. You will be greater than your father.

Snoke tried to fill that void in Ben's needs and wants that his father didn't realize he was lacking.

But then it took an ugly turn and Snoke likely turned Han into a weapon against Ben where the message became more malignant. Your father doesn't care about you. Your father loves his ship more than he loves you. Your father is scared of you. Your father hates you.

And as I wrote in an earlier post, I can see Snoke manipulating Ben's training where any emotional and physical abuse inflicted by Snoke and his minions had Han's face superimposed into the memories of past abuse as well as any ongoing abuse. Ben thinks it is his father, not Snoke that is making him suffer, and the message changes again this time with Han's voice, I hate you Ben. You aren't my son. You are a disappointment. You are a freak. You don't deserve my love. You don't deserve to be a Jedi. You are nothing.

Mission accomplished. Snoke is not the manipulative abuser. His father was. Han is now the embodiment of the enemy, and Snoke is the hero that can save Ben Solo from his misery.

One of the other posters mentioned that Kylo takes a step back when Han steps on to the bridge. I had never really noticed it before, but she may be right. Kylo not only hates his father. He is scared of him.

I am very intrigued to see what happens with Ben's backstory in episode 8. But I will not be surprised in the least if Han was made to be the scapegoat for everything Snoke has inflicted on Kylo. He likely took small rifts between a father and a son an exploited it to "weaponize" Ben Solo and turn him into Kylo Ren.

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Darth_Awakened on Thu 26 May - 13:34

@Reynak wrote:
@Maria Antonietta wrote:
@Jakku wrote:@slade  Interesting that you mentioned Han's look of disgust whenever he saw Ben.  I saw it as wariness and guilty fascination, but certainly not a look of love.  I was also struck by the expression on Han's face when Maz produced the sabre for them down in the dungeon. His "Where did you get that?" had an edge to it, and he stared at it while Maz was talking to Finn. It occurred to me that, if he thought the sabre to have been in Ben's possession, the fact that Maz had it might mean that Ben was dead, or not in a position to defend his possessions.  At that point he hadn't seen Kylo on the battlefield.

When Leia arrived, the first thing Han said was "I saw him.  He was here."  To me, Han sounded worried and possibly scared.  "Along with 'too much Vader' in him", I thought it was possible that Han had been deeply afraid of his own son.  Certainly he wasn't reluctant to make a raid on SKB, which would quite possibly end in the death of his son. And the death of Rey, which he was also willing to encompass as collateral damage ("He would have disappointed you").  It was only when they got onto SKB and Finn made his mission clear, that Han agreed not to leave without her.

So, is it at all possible that Han had been s***-scared of his powerful son, keen to stay away from him (and therefore from Leia), and more than happy to offload him to Luke? Did something happen between them that pushed Ben over the edge? (Which would be ironic, given how Han ended up.)

@Jakku

Han never believed in the force c**p. I feel like he really gave up on his son. When he said "there's too much Vader in him", I felt completely shocked.
@Maria Antonietta

Mee too, I was also shocked at the theatre when Han said that. It was so harsh! Kylo has done terrible things but as a mother, it shocked me that Han sounded as he had dismissed and (nearly?)disowned his son, his flesh and blood, as a hopeless irredeemable freak of nature. HF delivered the words so well they shocked me, those words gave me the chills because they were not only about how bad that young man was, but about how his own father had given up on him for ever (or so it seemed) and considered he and everyone had done enough for that stray freak, that he had been born damaged, a bad seed. " Threre was too much Vader in him". Terrible.


Did he say there was or there is? Because saying that in past tense suggests even more detachment. The boy is never called by his name until Han sees him on that carwalk, he is just "he, him, our son". It's as if saying his name was something they avoided. Han also said to Leia she saw his son when she look at him as if it was hard for her to remember her own child.

All this is so tragic, and then we have the references to Snoke stalking Kylo as a child, this made many people including myself think Ben Solo stood no chances as he was preyed upon as a kid and his family didn't realise what was so wrong until it was too late. Leia sent him to Luke because there was something seriously wrong with the boy and she thought Luke could help him. This means he was in danger when he was sent to Luke and already damaged to some extent. This is why it seems so strange to read that he fell at 23. It seems to enter in contradiction with the idea JJ and Adam's words projected. Why was abandonment and neglect an issue at 23? I think that he should have fallen before or gotten over those issues.

Are they trying to reconcile two different ideas?

Like @Darth Dingbat, I suspect this may have happened and it may be difficult to make both vibes work. He worked as a traumatised youth that could have lived a horribe experience at 23 but then those references to the predator stalking him since birth and his abandonment issues seem pointless. Why were they mentioned?

If I had to write a backstory for him, I'd have chosen one idea or the other but never both. They don't go very well as a combination narratively speaking because one diminishes the dramatism and impact of the other. He could have been able to resist until something terrible happened, it's true, but why making the story so complicated?

I also have this idea that perhaps he didn't initially fall but set off on some sort of mission which required training and inmersion in the DS and the FO ranks. This could have happened when he was 23. He has obviously committed crimes, although the ones we saw on screen were acts of war. They were horrible acts anyway and his soul has been damaged and tainted by the things he's done. He might have had an initial plan but ended up trapped in the DS and with no way out or back. This could be a possibility that could explain why he insists on staying where he is so clearly miserable. He might think this mission is more important than himself because when Han told him Snoke will crush him when he is done with him he didn't deny it. It was as if he had accepeted he (probably) won't survive when his mission is fulfilled.

But why did he seem brainwashed when he talked to Han then, when he said Snoke was wise? What are we supposed to infer, that he has agency and turned at 23 for some mysterious reason and thinks he has to achieve a goal he considers necessary? Does he really have agency or was he brainwashed and manipulated? What are we supposed to believe?

In TFA he seemed traumatised and manipulated, immature as if he hadn't evolved as a normal person and now, are we expected to believe he turned at 23? Brainwashed at 23? How did neglect cause his turning at 23?

Sorry for the ranting, but it's difficult for me to accept all this makes sense, all these things that seem to contradict one another.

Fairy tales require suspension of disbelief but they still have to feel convincing and they shouldn't require an effort on the viewers trying to make everything add up when it seems it doesn't. And SW is not just a fairy tale, especially TFA, where that scene on the catwalk felt like a Shakespearean, or even better, a greek tragedy. Not that I don't consider fairy tales important, far from it, but they don't follow the same rules as tragedies. The Skywalker family in TFA are living a tragedy that reminds me of something written by Sophocles whereas Finn has a past just as tragic but behaves as an unpretentious adventure flick funny main character and Rey doesn't find her place as a solid heroine because she seems light and superficial as a character when with Finn but deep and much more interesting and fleshed-out when with Kylo.

It's as if JJ didn't make up his mind on which genre TFA should adhere to, as if we were watching two different movies depending on the scenes on screen. This is confusing and probably the reason why so many people read the story wrong.
@Reynak

Yep, I had as well a feeling that Han has given up on Ben. It was confirmed somehow by Maz Kanata as well by telling him that he was away from the fight far too long.
However, no matter how terrible it sounds (and it really does sound terrible) it is very much in Han s character from ANH to TFA.
He is a selfish guy, no matter how we like him, but Han always sees first himself than everybody else (until the last scene on the bridge with Kylo - and that scene is heart breaking for both of them and Leia as well).
Han as well likes to blame the others (It is not my fault), so it was much easier for him to blame Vader (the guy in the black armor not Anakin Skywalker), than take the responsibility of not being a perfect parent.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Thu 26 May - 15:11

@slade loved your ruminations on loneliness.

i feel that tying in with the soldiering, that kylo lacks the camaraderie you'd have in a squad. i wonder of there would have been some of the with the other knights but then he is their master so it's not very likely. he stands apart from everyone eve, shallwesay, professionally.

whoever he is, he is always by himself.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Thu 26 May - 18:50

@Kylo Ren wrote:
@Mana wrote:When people say they relate to heroes, they don't really...they just wish they were like them. At the end of the day, people will realise the character that they relate to the most is the one who ultimately seeks out redemption from a lifetime of mistakes and has the greatest transformational arc, and not the embellished heroes who can do no wrong. They just don't know it yet....
@Mana

I relate to Kylo Ren....what does that say about me?
My childhood was not traumatizing.....if you exclude the fact I felt out of place (and time) all of the time....
There was no Snoke and I had loving parents....that hated eachothers guts, but stayed married for the sake of the kids....which is IMO wrong in so many levels....all of them I'd say....guess why I have issues with hypocrisy....

I can totally see Han unfit to deal with Ben's issues....he is a man who runs away from the uncomfortable....probably the only time when he was worthy of his son's love was when he stepped on that bridge and called: "Ben!!" Because it was probably the bravest thing he did in his life. I think Han was affraid of Kylo, in that moment and all other moments...of Ben too....because he did not understand him...couldn't relate and could not help....thus felt ashamed that he masked with estrangement that in cycle caused more of Ben's lonelyness.....I always felt a reluctance in Han to try to get through his son...lack of confidence....when Leia asks him to bring him back....I used to think that is because of one speciffic bad thing that Han did in the past that only Ben knew about, but now I feel it's that failure to understand and relate to his child is what Han asked for when hoping for forgivness....But in death...I feel Han redeems himself....putting his son before himself for once in his life....After surprise on his face the first thing I see is relief....then unconditional love that was missing in all other looks in TFA followed by returned forgivness....
This must be the act and the moment that redeems Kylo....he can't do bad sith no more....his atonement must start next...because now there is no more excuses....he is not in shock any more after Rey wakes him up by taking him down.....

I guess what I wanted to say is....the sin of Han and Leia imo is that they left their son to feel alone....can that be the cause of his mental illnes...or his mental ilness is just a condition caused by alienation and lonelines coupled with Snoke's interference? what exactly happened in Solo family? Will we see that...is it understandable? How can you console your child if you don't understand his struggles....Is holding someone tight in your embrace ever enough to vanquish the s*** you did and betrayal you caused? There are no right paths to choose, I suppose....or all of them are right...for someone....Humans should not have children...we don't know well how to selfsacrifice...our egoes always come first...even before our children....except if you're a Jesus....but then again he didn't have children....

I feel this to be more of Leia's failure then Han's...she is a Force sensitive....but sometimes so very blind? Is it because she uses only the light side?
Also...
Is this movie really this deep or are we in all honesty just making it to be so with all of our head canons?
If any of what is written in this thread has any base in reality then killing Kylo off would have some dreaded ramifications....like the killing of hope that things will change and not all is bleak for so many hypersensitive people outthere.....
@Kylo Ren

I'm not sure if I did that correctly.  I relate to Kylo, too.  You made a very good point when you said that approaching Kylo on the bridge is the bravest thing Han has ever done.  I think on some level Kylo did realize that it was as close as Han was capable of coming to apologizing.  I do think that is going to be a turning point for kylo.  He is never going to forget Han touching his face with such gentleness. Harrison Ford really wanted Han's death to have significance, and I think we can trust that the filmmakers will honor that.  

I think holding your child tight goes a long way (note that I don't have kids, but I relate to Kylo for a reason).

Leia was in denial, judging from Bloodlines (I've only read summaries of it).  It is shocking how much a parent can ignore, even when evidence that something is seriously wrong is right in front of them.  She was also distracted and likely has PTSD or similar issues herself.  And Kylo was unplanned.  And he came along before Han and Leia were really able to solidify their relationship.

It's not all just head canons.  There's too many of us, in too many different places with different cultures, who are picking up on the same things.  For me, as someone already said, it comes down to trusting Adam Driver, whom I don't think would take a role he didn't feel strongly about.  I can't see Driver taking this role if he knew or thought that the filmmakers would take the easy and cheap way out with Kylo.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Thu 26 May - 18:58

@Reynak wrote:
@Maria Antonietta wrote:
@Jakku wrote:@slade  Interesting that you mentioned Han's look of disgust whenever he saw Ben.  I saw it as wariness and guilty fascination, but certainly not a look of love.  I was also struck by the expression on Han's face when Maz produced the sabre for them down in the dungeon. His "Where did you get that?" had an edge to it, and he stared at it while Maz was talking to Finn. It occurred to me that, if he thought the sabre to have been in Ben's possession, the fact that Maz had it might mean that Ben was dead, or not in a position to defend his possessions.  At that point he hadn't seen Kylo on the battlefield.

When Leia arrived, the first thing Han said was "I saw him.  He was here."  To me, Han sounded worried and possibly scared.  "Along with 'too much Vader' in him", I thought it was possible that Han had been deeply afraid of his own son.  Certainly he wasn't reluctant to make a raid on SKB, which would quite possibly end in the death of his son. And the death of Rey, which he was also willing to encompass as collateral damage ("He would have disappointed you").  It was only when they got onto SKB and Finn made his mission clear, that Han agreed not to leave without her.

So, is it at all possible that Han had been s***-scared of his powerful son, keen to stay away from him (and therefore from Leia), and more than happy to offload him to Luke? Did something happen between them that pushed Ben over the edge? (Which would be ironic, given how Han ended up.)

@Jakku

Han never believed in the force c**p. I feel like he really gave up on his son. When he said "there's too much Vader in him", I felt completely shocked.
@Maria Antonietta

Mee too, I was also shocked at the theatre when Han said that. It was so harsh! Kylo has done terrible things but as a mother, it shocked me that Han sounded as he had dismissed and (nearly?)disowned his son, his flesh and blood, as a hopeless irredeemable freak of nature. HF delivered the words so well they shocked me, those words gave me the chills because they were not only about how bad that young man was, but about how his own father had given up on him for ever (or so it seemed) and considered he and everyone had done enough for that stray freak, that he had been born damaged, a bad seed. " There was too much Vader in him". Terrible.

Did he say there was or there is? Because saying that in past tense suggests even more detachment. The boy is never called by his name until Han sees him on that catwalk, he is just "he, him, our son". It's as if saying his name was something they avoided. Han also said to Leia she saw his son in him when she looked at him as if it was hard for her to remember her own child.

All this is so tragic, and then we have the references to Snoke stalking Kylo as a child, this made many people including myself think Ben Solo stood no chances as he was preyed upon as a kid and his family didn't realise what was so wrong until it was too late. Leia sent him to Luke because there was something seriously wrong with the boy and she thought Luke could help him. This means he was in danger when he was sent to Luke and already damaged to some extent. This is why it seems so strange to read that he fell at 23. It seems to enter in contradiction with the idea JJ and Adam's words projected. Why was abandonment and neglect an issue at 23? I think that he should have fallen before or gotten over those issues.

Are they trying to reconcile two different ideas?

Like @Darth Dingbat, I suspect this may have happened and it may be difficult to make both vibes work. He worked as a traumatised youth that could have lived a horribe experience at 23 but then those references to the predator stalking him since birth and his abandonment issues seem pointless. Why were they mentioned?

If I had to write a backstory for him, I'd have chosen one idea or the other but never both. They don't go very well as a combination narratively speaking because one diminishes the dramatism and impact of the other. He could have been able to resist until something terrible happened, it's true, but why making the story so complicated?

I also have this idea that perhaps he didn't initially fall but set off on some sort of mission which required training and inmersion in the DS and the FO ranks. This could have happened when he was 23. He has obviously committed crimes, although the ones we saw on screen were acts of war. They were horrible acts anyway and his soul has been damaged and tainted by the things he's done. He might have had an initial plan but ended up trapped in the DS and with no way out or back. This could explain why he insists on staying where he is so clearly miserable. He might think this mission is more important than himself because when Han told him Snoke will crush him when he is done with him he didn't deny it. It was as if he had accepeted he (probably) won't survive when his mission is fulfilled.

But why did he seem brainwashed when he talked to Han then, when he said Snoke was wise? What are we supposed to infer, that he has agency and turned at 23 for some mysterious reason and thinks he has to achieve a goal he considers necessary? Does he really have agency or was he brainwashed and manipulated? What are we supposed to believe?

In TFA he seemed traumatised and manipulated, immature as if he hadn't evolved as a normal person and now, are we expected to believe he turned at 23? Brainwashed at 23? How did neglect cause his turning at 23?

Sorry for the ranting, but it's difficult for me to accept all this makes sense, all these things that seem to contradict one another.

Fairy tales require suspension of disbelief but they still have to feel convincing and they shouldn't require an effort on the viewers trying to make everything add up when it seems it doesn't. And SW is not just a fairy tale, especially TFA, where that scene on the catwalk felt like a Shakespearean, or rather a Greek tragedy. Not that I don't consider fairy tales important, far from it, but they don't follow the same rules as tragedies. The Skywalker family in TFA are living a tragedy that reminds me of something written by Sophocles whereas Finn has a past just as tragic but behaves as an unpretentious adventure flick funny main character and Rey doesn't find her place as a solid heroine because she seems light and superficial as a character when with Finn but deep and much more interesting and fleshed-out when with Kylo.

It's as if JJ didn't make up his mind on which genre TFA should adhere to, as if we were watching two different movies depending on the scenes on screen. This is confusing and probably the reason why so many people read the story wrong.
@Reynak

I think Han said "There was too much Vader in him."  And you are right; it did sound like Han had all but disowned Kylo.  And good observation on Han and Leia never using Kylo's name.  Must have made it easier for Han to ignore his existence.  God, it hurt to watch that scene where Han and Leia are talking about Kylo, and it still hurts to watch the bridge scene.  Kylo's face, his eyes...Driver is a brilliant actor.  And yes, Greek tragedy.  It seems the filmmakers are turning some of our ideas about Han and Leia on their heads, and it's daring and brilliant and completely speaks to these times we find ourselves in.


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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Thu 26 May - 19:20

@Reynak wrote:Wow @Snufkin, what a fantastic article you have linked, thanks for sharing it. I loved it. Very Happy
And it's absolutely relevant to the topic, LOL. We love Kylo because he is more human and thus vulnerable than your typical macho man who is always right and doesn't need anyone, has no doubts, existantial crisis or insecurities. They aren't relatable, at least not for me, while Kylo brings out the protective streak all of us have without losing any of his manly appeal. He can be both strong and sensitive, vulnerable and dangerous. It's no wonder we love him the way we do.

I also want to say this thread is fantastic and I've enjoyed everybody's posts an awful lot. They are all fantastic, guys. cheers bounce
@Reynak

Absolutely. Kylo is so many contradictions, and that makes him extremely attractive. And I really don't want him to come to harm. I don't want him killed, executed, or imprisoned for the rest of his life. (I was actually trying to think of possible defenses available under U.S. criminal law that I would use in court to defend him ((I don't know anything about military law)). I just don't see Kylo as a 100% free actor (which that Doerries book talks about vis a vis characters in Greek drama). And he did not fully create himself; he, like all of us, was shaped by the world and the people around him (and I am not discounting his free will when I say that; I'm saying it's a combination of factors that cannot be taken in isolation from each other that made him who he is). If they kill him, I do think it will feel like the message is that people like him (and people like me) don't deserve anything else other than hate and condemnation.

There's so much Hades/Persephone/Underworld symbolism in the movie; I think the filmmakers do intend to keep building on that. By the way, Maz's place was originally intended to be completely underground. Interesting. I think Rey will descend and return as well. Perhaps *both* of them, not just Rey, are on "the Hero's journey", paralleling each other. This story is just...epic. It has reminded me of how much a story can change a person, can change a life, can to some degree change reality. It obviously is resonating deeply with so many of us. Just look at the tumblr accounts, message boards, art (I'm not even acknowledging the completely OTT crazy haters) that celebrate this movie and the Reylo relationship; none of that was there seven months ago.

The first time I saw TFA I was with a friend who cannot watch movies in 3D, so I saw it on a regular movie screen. It is so fast-paced that on first view, my reaction was "oh! Action! Oh my, the bad guy's HOT! More action! Exploding things! Punk rock!" I just had to sit back and let it sink in, and many nuances I did not pick up on until a fifth or twelfth viewing. The second time I saw it, I went alone to a late night showing and saw it in Imax 3D. I left the theater and literally screamed in the (largely deserted) parking lot. I was a middle aged woman actually screaming and tearing up because of what I had just seen. And it has completely obsessed me ever since. (I freely admit I'm using the movie to cope with my own issues--it helps for some reason).
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 26 May - 20:32

@Slade wrote:
@Reynak wrote:Wow @Snufkin, what a fantastic article you have linked, thanks for sharing it. I loved it. Very Happy
And it's absolutely relevant to the topic, LOL. We love Kylo because he is more human and thus vulnerable than your typical macho man who is always right and doesn't need anyone, has no doubts, existantial crisis or insecurities. They aren't relatable, at least not for me, while Kylo brings out the protective streak all of us have without losing any of his manly appeal. He can be both strong and sensitive, vulnerable and dangerous. It's no wonder we love him the way we do.

I also want to say this thread is fantastic and I've enjoyed everybody's posts an awful lot. They are all fantastic, guys. cheers bounce
@Reynak

Absolutely. Kylo is so many contradictions, and that makes him extremely attractive. And I really don't want him to come to harm. I don't want him killed, executed, or imprisoned for the rest of his life. (I was actually trying to think of possible defenses available under U.S. criminal law that I would use in court to defend him ((I don't know anything about military law)). I just don't see Kylo as a 100% free actor (which that Doerries book talks about vis a vis characters in Greek drama). And he did not fully create himself; he, like all of us, was shaped by the world and the people around him (and I am not discounting his free will when I say that; I'm saying it's a combination of factors that cannot be taken in isolation from each other that made him who he is). If they kill him, I do think it will feel like the message is that people like him (and people like me) don't deserve anything else other than hate and condemnation.

There's so much Hades/Persephone/Underworld symbolism in the movie; I think the filmmakers do intend to keep building on that. By the way, Maz's place was originally intended to be completely underground. Interesting. I think Rey will descend and return as well. Perhaps *both* of them, not just Rey, are on "the Hero's journey", paralleling each other. This story is just...epic. It has reminded me of how much a story can change a person, can change a life, can to some degree change reality. It obviously is resonating deeply with so many of us. Just look at the tumblr accounts, message boards, art (I'm not even acknowledging the completely OTT crazy haters) that celebrate this movie and the Reylo relationship; none of that was there seven months ago.

The first time I saw TFA I was with a friend who cannot watch movies in 3D, so I saw it on a regular movie screen. It is so fast-paced that on first view, my reaction was "oh! Action! Oh my, the bad guy's HOT! More action! Exploding things! Punk rock!" I just had to sit back and let it sink in, and many nuances I did not pick up on until a fifth or twelfth viewing. The second time I saw it, I went alone to a late night showing and saw it in Imax 3D. I left the theater and literally screamed in the (largely deserted) parking lot. I was a middle aged woman actually screaming and tearing up because of what I had just seen. And it has completely obsessed me ever since. (I freely admit I'm using the movie to cope with my own issues--it helps for some reason).
@Slade

OMG! I cannot tell you how much I agree with all of this post. I too do not think he has 100% agency because (1) the Greek tragedy aspects of fate v. free will explored in the Doerries book, (2) I see the force as having a mental effect on someone, particularly if they are immersed in the dark side (akin to what @snufkin has been saying about looking into the darkness and it looks back at you, and @panki and @guardienne speaking on how the dark side can addle you mentally), (3) how can his mind really completely be his own when Snoke has infiltrated it since early childhood ... I'm not saying he is a zombie, but I think Snoke can get in sometimes when Kylo doesn't want him to, and (4) Driver, who I trust immensely because he is such a brilliant *and* dedicated actor, plays him as a cult member-like figure sometimes with "The Supreme Leader is wise," and if you watch Driver's face from right before the sun dies to after it goes dark, there is a real change. Prior to the light going out, Kylo looks hopeful, almost youngish, like he is going to go with his father, but when the sun dies his face and especially his eyes go blank. Even as he whispers out "thank you" and you can see some emotion there, it's muted. It's like it's leaking, and Driver's incredibly expressive eyes are still blank. But then right before they cut to Carrie Fisher, Kylo is looking down where Han fell, suddenly his eyes widen, his mouth opens as if he was just kicked in the gut. The screenplay says Kylo is "horrified" and "weakened" by what he has done, and Driver plays that ... but Abrams only gives you really one second to see it. I think he does that because Kylo may not turn out to be as evil as he seems on the surface, but Abrams, with his mystery box philosophy, wants that moment to almost be subliminal ... so that most people in the general audience will be shocked in Episode VIII that he is not evil incarnate.

I too have tried to think of legal defenses for him, lol. I would trust your judgment better because you seem to be a criminal law expert. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I would think that in a time of hostilities he would have quite a few mitigating circumstances with regard to Han because Han is literally there planting bombs. Han is planning to blow his son and his son's comrades up. Han actually hesitated before calling out to Ren. Han and Leia had already come to the conclusion that Kylo might die in the raid. She says "if you see our son", not "find our son, and then blow the place up." The funny thing is that there is a decent chance that Kylo was the one who actually warned his mother that the FO was targeting her planet. If you're interested, I can explain the reasoning behind it. Regardless, he was upset that his mother's planet was going to be blown up. That's part of the reason he gets so crazy when he can't find Rey. He argues with Snoke about it in the movie, and his intention that it not happen is right in the script. So in the end is what's interesting is that Han and Leia have made their peace with the fact that they might kill him, while he is still trying to save her life. In addition, I believe that Kylo has been avoiding Han for probably years. The tone of Driver's voice in that "Han is your father" scene tells you Kylo *does* care about his father. Kylo also sends his troops upstairs, not down. He also hesitates right near Han and then suddenly speeds up, walking fast across the bridge. He doesn't want to run into his father. He doesn't want to kill him. But when Han, probably a known enemy combatant of the FO comes out in the open in front of the stormtroopers it's a bad situation. I do believe that Kylo could have dealt with them, so their presence is not reason enough to kill Han IMO, but I do think that Kylo was *this close* to going with his father, and that the darkness created by the death of the sun and/or Snoke interference (Snoke told Rey to kill Kylo in her head in the novel) pushed him over the top.

I also totally get where you're coming from about this movie reaching people at a very deep level. I think part of it is Driver's acting. He is actually *just that good*. But there is also that "TTT" factor from @snufkin's friends article. But more than that, Kylo really is a Rorschach test that speaks to people who have had a variety of personal difficulties. We see how he struggles. We see how he has fallen into his nightmare situation, how he has not overcome the shadow in himself and he very much becomes a "if not for the grace of God there go I" kind of character. I have personally done a lot of introspection as to why this character has resonated with me much, and I actually have reached some breakthroughs on some things. I have experienced some Kylo things, in a milder, non-sci-fi form of course, but there are some similarities and being introduced to this character has actually been very instrumental in helping me reach some profound realizations and to really accept certain things as they are and were. The writers and Driver did an incredible job with this character.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by snufkin on Thu 26 May - 21:48

@Slade wrote:
The first time I saw TFA I was with a friend who cannot watch movies in 3D, so I saw it on a regular movie screen.  It is so fast-paced that on first view, my reaction was "oh!  Action!  Oh my, the bad guy's HOT!  More action! Exploding things!  Punk rock!"  I just had to sit back and let it sink in, and many nuances I did not pick up on until a fifth or twelfth viewing.  The second time I saw it, I went alone to a late night showing and saw it in Imax 3D.  I left the theater and literally screamed in the (largely deserted) parking lot.  I was a middle aged woman actually screaming and tearing up because of what I had just seen.  And it has completely obsessed me ever since.  (I freely admit I'm using the movie to cope with my own issues--it helps for some reason).
@Slade

It was a total blow off Saturday matinee in late February for me and I'm still amazed how much thought I've put into this considering how low my expectations are. The whole "is what I think is happening" conclusion after my first viewing has been gnawing at me ever since then.

Also ha, speaking of parking lots, when I came out after this matinee, I interrupted a man who was trying to let the air out of one of my tires (apparently I was parked to close to his Lexus) and confronted him about it. He ended up running away because he had somebody else driving - so I probably identify more with Rey in not putting up with men's c**p ;).
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Thu 26 May - 21:52

Yes i am interested in how Kylo might have warned Leia. Is it possible Han and Leia didn't know Kylo was on SKB?  One theory i read regarding the bridge is that Kylo was wavering but then saw the light go out, which meant weapon was about to fire, which meant dead Leia. That may have been the deciding factor. Kylo doesnt even sound like he believes himself when he says "the supreme leader is wise."  I'm on my way to a bookstore to get some Greek drama, for analysis purposes.

@snufkin why was he letting air out of your tire? Yeah, I would have confronted him too.
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