Kylo coded as traumatized?

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by snufkin on Fri 27 May - 3:59

@slade, angry little man? He started screaming at me about how I'd scraped his car, which was BS. Most insane part is that he had somebody waiting for him the idling car, what a great example to set for your wife or kid. I started to pull out my cell phone to take a picture of his face and license plate, which is when he ran.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 5:44

@snufkin

Yay for modern technology!

I understand why they CGI'd the helmet back on, but I'm glad we have photos of Driver's face from the pre-CGI when Kylo and snoke are talking about Han. Kylo looks like a kicked puppy. Like *heck* Han means nothing to Kylo! He is a Rorschach (sp?), isn't he?
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 7:29

Kylo Ren wrote:@Slade
He means nothing to me and I've been waiting for this day for a long time are delivered with the same measure of sorrow and pain....does he even believe himself when saying that?
@Kylo Ren

No, he doesn't. They sound rehearsed. I imagine that he has thought of coming face-to-face with Han for a long time, even as he avoided actually doing it, and I bet he practiced saying "I've been waiting..." because he thought it made him sound tough and intimidating.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 7:46

Kylo Ren wrote:
SanghaRen wrote:
Beautiful post. The parts in bold I relate to a lot.

1. I don't do well with hypocrisy and it gets me into trouble because people want to keep their masks on.

2. Leaving your kid to feel alone is imo the worse thing - it's part of my story too, surrounded by people but feeling alone.

3. Those thoughts are probably not making you too popular Smile I have wondered myself on how we raise children in our society - should add that I have no children. Somehow our traditional family model does not seem to be very successful. I had once a debate on whether kids should be raised more as part of a community as opposed to part of the traditional Disney-like family that seems to be doomed one day to explode or remain in its own vicious frustration circle. I am sure that there are happy traditional families, but how many? It's a difficult debate because I don't have children so I am usually dismissed. And if I had children, I'd be called the worse mother! I guess my problem is again hypocrisy. A lot of people seem to hang on to the (false?) glory of the traditional family model instead of opening themselves up to new ideas that could help everyone especially children. I don't have a solution, but I hate it when people keep lying to themselves.

4. I really wondered about that one too. Big time. Kylo has a heavy weight on his shoulder. His fans are looking up to his redemption as a validation of their own solitude and darkest feelings. I guess there's always a danger to become too attached to a fictional character especially in the first part of a trilogy. I have decided to trust Adam Driver and the way he plays Kylo on this. The story will probably not go exactly how I want it to go, but AD played him with a lot of suffering so I'll trust him to follow up on it.
@SanghaRen

1. "Take off that mask...you don´t need it" the use of the word need it here is what gives me the chills e.v.e.r.y. time....
I think people keep their masks on because it is the way of our world now...everybody is doing it....the raw stripped down emotions and true feelings are a rarity in today´s society...apart from stupidity and shallowness that is....sometimes you see it in a movie or in a very good book...or hear it in a song...but those are mostly our own personal interpretations of it....when you see something as honest as Kylo´s reactions onscreen of course most won´t see it...they´re in hidding....and denial...probably so far gone by now that it´s irreversible...to the point that they don´t have real stripped down emotions anymore? but rather focus of work...Kardashians...gathering wealth....the material...That I see in most people around me and that is what is the cause of my loneliness these days....Sad...but true

2. That is the key thing that pushed Ben Solo to become Kylo Ren. I think he went to the darkside because he was just tired and wanted to feel nothing....I´ve done those sorts of things too...doesn´t help...not if you have light in you...lol...he IS a failure...can´t even become a Sith hahaha

3. I don´t care about being popular...never have...but you are right...one of the problems about raising children in today´s society or any other time´s society for that matter (because humans have always dealt with the same issues) is imo the fact that you want to protect your children from bad things...bad experiences...so you become a lying hypocrite...or do as I think Han did, just ignore the problem...and expose your child to some of the worst human traits there are: liars and cowards.....dunno which is worse TBH (and then we asks our selves why most of the kids today are screwed, or cruel or shallow)....the road to hell is indeed covered with good intentions...and corpses of your victims I´d might add...or broken souls (dammit I am so goth dispositioned today Wink)
But to get back to the point....what is the right way to raise your children...guess that depends on every child....but there is no perfect way for that...you make mistakes...both of you...the child and the parent....but the mistakes should be addressed and acknowledged not buried or ignored...like I have a feeling Leia and Han did by dumping their son to Luke...with the best intentions in their mind...to spare your child from pain...I am very conflicted on  this matter due to my own personal experiences growing up....My mother was like Han....my father was the best father ever...but still brewed sith with my personality because he chose to be a noble hypocrite self-sacrifice his happiness and stay in a loveless marriage for the sake of the kids....he recently told me that that choice was his biggest mistake....because now he knows that my brother and I most acutely sensed the hypocrisy, that marked us for ever...in however different ways.....You can´t hide stuff like that from children..they sense it all...and it´s really bad if they feel that things are wrong but can´t put their finger on it what exactly is wrong since all looks beautifull on the outside....cue the loneliness.....I know I won´t repeat his mistakes....And @SanghaRen, you would be an excellent parent, because you my dear are aware of what is wrong with this world...and only if we identify and recognize that, we know how to address it....the fact that most don´t is just sad...but true again....my advice...who cares what men and women that are like that think of you Very Happy let´s be defiant Wink it´s scary...but exciting..because it´s the right thing to do (please appreciate the irony of me quoting the liar of TFA...lol)

4. There are days when I have faith...days like these when I am reminded of the fact that there are beautiful, smart, thoughtful, strong and MF brave people outthere....sometimes I falter....what can I say...I am a very conflicted Kylo....and I´d say that I am already too attached to a fictional character.... I guess, my biggest fear on this matter is that the writers will sellout/chicken out at some point and kill him off and rob us of a proper redemption/atonement....which is always a possibility when dealing with multinational franchises and business oriented companies bla bla bla  Smile


@Darth_Awakened

I am a Kylo aint´t I? (have Daddy issues too, sith)
@Kylo Ren


That bolded part. Exactly. As I was reading earlier posts in this thread, I literally was thinking something similar and also derisively thought of the Kardashians. Regarding people not seeing things, I am continually surprised at people who just did not see any subtext at all in TFA, even after it is spelled out for them. I just think they must not have seen the same movie I saw.

Earlier, as I was reading today's excellent posts by so many people, someone (sorry I cannot remember who) said something about Kylo showing emotions and vulnerability and how great that was. And it's part of why I love Kylo so much. There's people out there who have denigrated Kylo for that, calling him names I won't repeat here, questioning his masculinity (which brings up a whole other discussion on gender and sexism), saying he's a horrible villain because he's not two-dimensional EVIL, and just evil. It's very confusing to me. Like the people who think Kylo is "weak" because he lost the fight to Rey, how do they discount the fact that he just got hit with a. bow. caster.? He took a hit from a weapon that sends stormtroopers flying, was bleeding out as he pursued Finn and Rey, and took multiple hits from Finn and Rey before she finally took him down. And that's not even taking into account his emotional state from just killing Han. And he was *hitting* that injury! That's not weak; that's hardcore! And there's no talking to those people. It can be pointed out that Kylo was badly injured, etc, and they still call him a "p***baby."

As an aside, that scene where Kylo is confronting Finn and Rey outside on SKB and hitting his wound and blood spatters on the show, that was beautifully filmed (and reminds me of a line from a Sisters of Mercy song, "and the cast of the blood on the driven snow..."),
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 8:53

@Kylo Ren

I don't think Han and Leia are bad people, either. I think they were unprepared for Ben, and dealing with their own issues, and their own jobs, and definitely Han couldn't relate to Kylo...

I think Leia meant well in sending him to Luke, but it's likely that to Ben, it felt like he was being thrown away because he was "bad."

Snoke probably got in by identifying what young Ben wanted and giving it to him (likely attention and feigned "love" and acceptance). And it makes no sense at all to me that Leia waited until the events in TFA to tell Han that Snoke had been involved. Why on earth would she do that? (and I don't completely buy the explanation she gave in Bloodlines).

Yes, Driver does convey a sense of "why, father?" when he just crumbles in front of Han after he takes the mask off. It's difficult to watch because it's so raw. Driver's a method actor; heaven only knows what in his own prior experience he tapped into to do that scene.

Both the Jedi and Sith are unbalanced and need to find a middle path, which I think Kylo will eventually do.

And regarding parents feeling no need to talk to kids about the bad stuff, like that will make the bad stuff not exist...exactly. You know, my step niece just graduated high school and will head off to university in a few months. I just got a photo of her, and when I say she is drop dead gorgeous, I mean it. My first thought was "I bet her parents never taught her self defense or street sense", because of course they didn't. And she's going to go off by herself, naive. Easy pickings for a predator. But my family would never talk about that. I guess "nice people" don't (extreme sarcasm). I don't know if American culture is worse than other countries about this, but it darn sure seems like we have this mindset of "SMILE! Keep smiling and lying to yourself!"

It would have made a world of difference if Han had been able to say to Ben "I don't understand what you are dealing with, but I love and support you."

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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 27 May - 9:02

Slade wrote:
Kylo Ren wrote:
SanghaRen wrote:
Beautiful post. The parts in bold I relate to a lot.

1. I don't do well with hypocrisy and it gets me into trouble because people want to keep their masks on.

2. Leaving your kid to feel alone is imo the worse thing - it's part of my story too, surrounded by people but feeling alone.

3. Those thoughts are probably not making you too popular Smile I have wondered myself on how we raise children in our society - should add that I have no children. Somehow our traditional family model does not seem to be very successful. I had once a debate on whether kids should be raised more as part of a community as opposed to part of the traditional Disney-like family that seems to be doomed one day to explode or remain in its own vicious frustration circle. I am sure that there are happy traditional families, but how many? It's a difficult debate because I don't have children so I am usually dismissed. And if I had children, I'd be called the worse mother! I guess my problem is again hypocrisy. A lot of people seem to hang on to the (false?) glory of the traditional family model instead of opening themselves up to new ideas that could help everyone especially children. I don't have a solution, but I hate it when people keep lying to themselves.

4. I really wondered about that one too. Big time. Kylo has a heavy weight on his shoulder. His fans are looking up to his redemption as a validation of their own solitude and darkest feelings. I guess there's always a danger to become too attached to a fictional character especially in the first part of a trilogy. I have decided to trust Adam Driver and the way he plays Kylo on this. The story will probably not go exactly how I want it to go, but AD played him with a lot of suffering so I'll trust him to follow up on it.
@SanghaRen

1. "Take off that mask...you don´t need it" the use of the word need it here is what gives me the chills e.v.e.r.y. time....
I think people keep their masks on because it is the way of our world now...everybody is doing it....the raw stripped down emotions and true feelings are a rarity in today´s society...apart from stupidity and shallowness that is....sometimes you see it in a movie or in a very good book...or hear it in a song...but those are mostly our own personal interpretations of it....when you see something as honest as Kylo´s reactions onscreen of course most won´t see it...they´re in hidding....and denial...probably so far gone by now that it´s irreversible...to the point that they don´t have real stripped down emotions anymore? but rather focus of work...Kardashians...gathering wealth....the material...That I see in most people around me and that is what is the cause of my loneliness these days....Sad...but true

2. That is the key thing that pushed Ben Solo to become Kylo Ren. I think he went to the darkside because he was just tired and wanted to feel nothing....I´ve done those sorts of things too...doesn´t help...not if you have light in you...lol...he IS a failure...can´t even become a Sith hahaha

3. I don´t care about being popular...never have...but you are right...one of the problems about raising children in today´s society or any other time´s society for that matter (because humans have always dealt with the same issues) is imo the fact that you want to protect your children from bad things...bad experiences...so you become a lying hypocrite...or do as I think Han did, just ignore the problem...and expose your child to some of the worst human traits there are: liars and cowards.....dunno which is worse TBH (and then we asks our selves why most of the kids today are screwed, or cruel or shallow)....the road to hell is indeed covered with good intentions...and corpses of your victims I´d might add...or broken souls (dammit I am so goth dispositioned today Wink)
But to get back to the point....what is the right way to raise your children...guess that depends on every child....but there is no perfect way for that...you make mistakes...both of you...the child and the parent....but the mistakes should be addressed and acknowledged not buried or ignored...like I have a feeling Leia and Han did by dumping their son to Luke...with the best intentions in their mind...to spare your child from pain...I am very conflicted on  this matter due to my own personal experiences growing up....My mother was like Han....my father was the best father ever...but still brewed sith with my personality because he chose to be a noble hypocrite self-sacrifice his happiness and stay in a loveless marriage for the sake of the kids....he recently told me that that choice was his biggest mistake....because now he knows that my brother and I most acutely sensed the hypocrisy, that marked us for ever...in however different ways.....You can´t hide stuff like that from children..they sense it all...and it´s really bad if they feel that things are wrong but can´t put their finger on it what exactly is wrong since all looks beautifull on the outside....cue the loneliness.....I know I won´t repeat his mistakes....And @SanghaRen, you would be an excellent parent, because you my dear are aware of what is wrong with this world...and only if we identify and recognize that, we know how to address it....the fact that most don´t is just sad...but true again....my advice...who cares what men and women that are like that think of you Very Happy let´s be defiant Wink it´s scary...but exciting..because it´s the right thing to do (please appreciate the irony of me quoting the liar of TFA...lol)

4. There are days when I have faith...days like these when I am reminded of the fact that there are beautiful, smart, thoughtful, strong and MF brave people outthere....sometimes I falter....what can I say...I am a very conflicted Kylo....and I´d say that I am already too attached to a fictional character.... I guess, my biggest fear on this matter is that the writers will sellout/chicken out at some point and kill him off and rob us of a proper redemption/atonement....which is always a possibility when dealing with multinational franchises and business oriented companies bla bla bla  Smile


@Darth_Awakened

I am a Kylo aint´t I? (have Daddy issues too, sith)
@Kylo Ren


That bolded part.  Exactly.  As I was reading earlier posts in this thread, I literally was thinking something similar and also derisively thought of the Kardashians.  Regarding people not seeing things, I am continually surprised at people who just did not see any subtext at all in TFA, even after it is spelled out for them.  I just think they must not have seen the same movie I saw.

Earlier, as I was reading today's excellent posts by so many people, someone (sorry I cannot remember who) said something about Kylo showing emotions and vulnerability and how great that was.  And it's part of why I love Kylo so much.  There's people out there who have denigrated Kylo for that, calling him names I won't repeat here, questioning his masculinity (which brings up a whole other discussion on gender and sexism), saying he's a horrible villain because he's not two-dimensional EVIL, and just evil.  It's very confusing to me.  Like the people who think Kylo is "weak" because he lost the fight to Rey, how do they discount the fact that he just got hit with a. bow. caster.?  He took a hit from a weapon that sends stormtroopers flying, was bleeding out as he pursued Finn and Rey, and took multiple hits from Finn and Rey before she finally took him down.  And that's not even taking into account his emotional state  from just killing Han.  And he was *hitting* that injury!  That's not weak; that's hardcore!  And there's no talking to those people.  It can be pointed out that Kylo was badly injured, etc, and they still call him a "p***baby."

As an aside, that scene where Kylo is confronting Finn and Rey outside on SKB and hitting his wound and blood spatters on the show, that was beautifully filmed (and reminds me of a line from a Sisters of Mercy song, "and the cast of the blood on the driven snow..."),
@Slade

Kylo is a freaking tank in that Snow Fight scene.  He has no concern for his own personal safety whatsoever.  He's crazed, he's devastated, he's having a mental breakdown, he's single-minded, he's in awe of Rey, but one thing he ain't is weak.  I know so many people who complained that he was a "whiny d-bag who killed his father in cold blood." What the he**? Do you know what whiny looks like? Let me show you Exhibit 1, Anakin Skywalker.  He had to get in the Vader suit before the whining stopped.  Exhibit 2, Luke Skywalker, prior to Jedi training.  I never saw Kylo whine once.  He's actually entirely too miserable and dejected to whine IMO.  Whining is an indication that you expect something better out of life.  I don't think Kylo really has any kind of expectation like that anywhere in TFA.  

Also, the cold-blooded? Where does that come from? Cold-blooded would have been slicing Han as he walked and not even missing a beat in the cadence.  Instead, he's crying and looking really like a lost boy until the sun dies, and then after that he's like a fallen angel figure damned to hell, then he's crazed, but then Rey catches the lightsaber he's in awe.  

And that's another thing, Kylo lost that fight because he was never trying to kill her in the first place.  He didn't even kill Finn and he hates Finn's guts.  The man stood there and gave away all his advantage at the cliff side and watched her "power up" because he turned into such a Sci-Fi Lloyd Dobler that he just wanted to teach her (aka "Stay with me") even though the rather trigger-happy woman had made several attempts on his life.  (Regarding your other thread ... Oh yeah, Rey's gotta a lot of darkness in her.  The dialogue doesn't indicate it, but watch DR's acting.  Rey literally snarls a lot.  And Rey of the "Let's beat Finn down with a stick like a gang enforcer girl" is not a cinnamon roll).  Then as she starts attacking him Darth Maul style he actually says "harder, harder" to her several times.  People have all kinds of interpretations on that ranging from a metaphor for sex, to his self-loathing and him wanting her to punish him, and/or him actually teaching her.  I think it's probably some combination of all three, but whatever it is, it is not weak.  The dude didn't cry out or scream in pain once, except one gutteral sound when she sliced his face.  Compare that with the over the top "NOOOOOOOOOs" of his forebears.

But a lot of people don't see that because the whole idea of Kylo Ren makes them uncomfortable IMO.  Vader is a basically evil incarnate, but he's awesome right.  Kylo has doubts and he's weak.  Vader is a monster so out of proportion that no one could turn into him.  Kylo is the person you or your kid might be if a couple more mistakes or wrong choices were made.  Kylo is thoroughly masculine, but he shows emotion, is actually portrayed as "beautiful" in many scenes (TTT man/Byronic hero) and that goes against of lot of deep-seeded "rules" for both men and women of how a man should be.  Kylo comes across as an abuse victim/cult-like/mentally unstable.  People are afraid to think of those things, because those kinds of things are very real.  Kylo is a bad villain ... well maybe that's because he's not a villain at all, but a troubled person.  But I think a lot of folks don't want to look at him and that the whole relatability aspect of him upsets them because he really does hit too close to home.  This is just me talking out loud, but I think a lot of the divergence in opinion relates to whether you can acknowledge your own capability for darkness, for mental fragility, for mistakes, for being swept up by the events around you.  If you know that we all have potential shadows that can take you under, Kylo Ren is not some scary thing that needs to be denied or "othered."  He is certainly tragic, but he is also hopeful in that if this guy can pull it together, then maybe I can or my brother can or my kid can too.  But if you view life denying that you are capable of terrible things, Kylo is like a disturbing kick in the gut.  His character is a like a big neon sign saying, "Look! Look! Look what happened to Han and Leia's son! Han and Leia! If the heroes kid can go bad ... anyone can go bad!"  And folks who don't want to think about their potential frailties really don't want to look at that neon sign.

I use my husband as a sounding board for a lot of this, and he has supported a lot of my thinking on this.  (He actually really disliked TFA, thought it was not what it could have been, but he loved Kylo Ren and AD's acting).  My husband is geeky and intelligent and introspective and intense and sensitive.  He's like a mild TTT guy without AD's height and the long hair, lol.   And he tells me that a lot of guys probably can't deal with Kylo Ren because he's too much of a mirror of things that they don't like about themselves.  Whether it be anxiety or confusion or bad decisions or feeling inferior and/or subordinate to a father/authority figure to having trouble with their future to how they get along with women.  A lot of those folks expected this SW to provide the escapism of a kicking a** and taking names Vader, a idealistically heroic Luke, an ultra-cool Han Solo who has humor, flies like a mofo and gets the girl in the metal bikini.  TFA gave them a lot of that kind of escapism in Poe and the humor and everyman likeability in Finn ... but the blood relation to Han, Luke and Vader ... that guy is like someone out of an indie movie that a lot of these folks never queue up/download from Netflix.  That guy is challenging.  Not only because he hits too close to home ... but also, if Han's son can go so astray, can be so confusing and difficult to put in an easy black or white box, what does that indicate for the future of the movies ... when a lot of the "old home week"/comfort food/fan service that was in TFA might be replaced by something much more complicated?  I think you said @slade that the Kylo storyline was very much a reflection of the times, and I completely agree with that.  The thing is, these times are scary, and in a way Kylo is the embodiment of that miasma of uncertainty everyone feels.  A lot of people want to escape that uncertainty into things like the Kardasians.  Kylo drags some of those folks back when they don't want to be dragged.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Reynak on Fri 27 May - 9:17

Kylo Ren wrote:@Slade
Agreed again with all you wrote in the post above mine....bravo...
And you quote Sisters of mercy...dammit...that's just....perfect

Hardcore indeed...all of it in that fight...plus the fact he never wanted to kill her...because he relates to her...she to him..force bonds tend to do that Razz....probably that's why she's so pissed about it...but she also doesn't kill him...and she easily could have....so there's hope for those two I'd say....epic romance indeed
@Kylo Ren

This is another thing many people didn't get at the theatre. Kylo was beaten not only because he was grievously wounded and emotionally broken, but because he never tried or wanted to harm Rey. How could he fight an opponent who tried and managed to hurt him in earnest never aiming at her body without ending up beaten? Snoke realised this when he told him she had resisted him ( in the interrogation room) not because of her strength but because of his weakness. Had he meant to kill her he'd have done so rather easily. His "mistake", what nearly cost him his life, is that he always avoided harming her while she was willing to hurt him.

Something stopped her from killing him though. It seemed the "right" thing to do after what she saw him do and knowing how dangerous he was as an enemy. Getting rid of him seemed the easiest choice and the most sensible in times of war, given his importance as an enemy and the danger he posed for the Resistance. But she couldn't bring herself to kill him although it seemed a mistake she and the Resistance would probably have to regret later, if he survived, of course.

She has already shot and killed STs, we've seen her, and also fighting agressively on Jakku, so why didn't see kill her enemy, a monster, a patricide? I think it was personal, like wounding and branding him, like looking down at him and Han on that catwalk with hope in her eyes. She saw something in him and she couldn't ignore it, perhaps she felt compassion for him, which means the world for a man whose family have already given up on.


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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 27 May - 9:27

Slade wrote:@Kylo Ren

I don't think Han and Leia are bad people, either.  I think they were unprepared for Ben, and dealing with their own issues, and their own jobs, and definitely Han couldn't relate to Kylo...

I think Leia meant well in sending him to Luke, but it's likely that to Ben, it felt like he was being thrown away because he was "bad."

Snoke probably got in by identifying what young Ben wanted and giving it to him (likely attention and feigned "love" and acceptance).  And it makes no sense at all to me that Leia waited until the events in TFA to tell Han that Snoke had been involved. Why on earth would she do that? (and I don't completely buy the explanation she gave in Bloodlines).

Yes, Driver does convey a sense of "why, father?" when he just crumbles in front of Han after he takes the mask off.  It's difficult to watch because it's so raw.  Driver's a method actor; heaven only knows what in his own prior experience he tapped into to do that scene.

Both the Jedi and Sith are unbalanced and need to find a middle path, which I think Kylo will eventually do.

And regarding parents feeling no need to talk to kids about the bad stuff, like that will make the bad stuff not exist...exactly.  You know, my step niece just graduated high school and will head off to university in a few months.  I just got a photo of her, and when I say she is drop dead gorgeous, I mean it.  My first thought was "I bet her parents never taught her self defense or street sense", because of course they didn't.  And she's going to go off by herself, naive.  Easy pickings for a predator.  But my family would never talk about that.  I guess "nice people" don't (extreme sarcasm).  I don't know if American culture is worse than other countries about this, but it darn sure seems like we have this mindset of "SMILE!  Keep smiling and lying to yourself!"

It would have made a world of difference if Han had been able to say to Ben "I don't understand what you are dealing with, but I love and support you."

@Slade fat

Excellent post, but I wanted to address both of the bolded.

First, Driver is a child of divorce, and I have read enough interviews to get the impression that things with both his father and his mother and stepfather were not all wine and roses.  I don't think he was outright abused or anything, but it doesn't sound like he gabs on the phone with them everyday either.  I think it the documentary AD mentioned how the Han scene was the hardest scene for him, in part because he had to dig up certain things in his own life to get to where he needed to be in the scene.

On your second point, I have a lot of experience dealing with dysfunctional family dynamics through both legal and advocacy work and personal experiences, and I'll tell you, that acting like everything is "cutesy" and fine when there are real things happening that make that not true is probably one of the more problematic things a non-abusive and non-neglectful parent can do to their kid.  Sometimes it results in kids being clueless about the world when they go away to school, which can have effects ranging from relatively "mild" ones like the kid is infantilized and can't manage their affairs to tragic consequences when people are not taught street-smarts.  

I think the street-smart thing is very regional in America.  My mother and her several siblings grew up in the Bronx, so I and all of my extended family got very hardcore lessons of "if you get in a stranger's car X will happen", and believe me "X" was never pretty; if you're careless with your beer and leave it around "Y" will happen, and "Y" was never pretty either.  But at the same time, I was actually raised in the Midwest, and though some people are truthful about the dangers of life with their kids, others don't want to "scare them."  But the thing is, sometimes aspects of life are scary.  You need to know what they are.  But even worse than that is when a family acts like everything is normal and functional and everything is really going to he** in a handbasket.  The kids know something is wrong.  They might not be able to articulate it, but they know.  And if you tell them everything is fine when it is not, I like to call that "crazymaking", because you are saying something opposite to the kid's perception and since you're a parent and they trust you, they are going to start to doubt themselves and it just festers from there.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 27 May - 9:31

Kylo Ren wrote:@SoloSideCousin
I bow to your greatness woman...and thank the maker for your compassion...you remind me of Maz you know....in the best possible way...
I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. ... Close your eyes... feel it... the light... its always been there... it will guide you

#ThankYouMyMsFriend
@Kylo Ren

No ... I bow to you.  You are on fire my friend.  The profound wisdom about life and love and family you have been showing here just has me in awe.  Your brilliance is showing my dear, and I am glad you are letting it out again.  Very Happy
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Fri 27 May - 9:31

@slade & @solosidecousin someone has done some of the work for us Wink what charges and legal defenses would be available during the inevitable trial of Kylo Ren ...

i find the free will stuff difficult to navigate (never mind legally). he doesn't give me the impression of someone who thinks things through thoroughly or anything, he acts very impulsively and it's a beautiful thing.

i made a friend watch girls (because i can) and she came out saying how driver's character is very vulnerable, an arsehole but vulnerable, and i love that combination. it's so rare that someone is written like that. the only characters like that that i know of are from english kitchen sink drama (I'm not kidding).

i think the level of involvement from all sorts of quarters (even people who bash the character) speaks for itself really.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 9:36

@SoloSideCousin @Reynak

Very, very well said. Regarding people calling Kylo whiny and weak, those opinions are so far from the truth that they have to just be making stuff up. Yes, Kylo easily could have killed both of them, but didn't. Hey, was Kylo saying "harder" to Rey as they fought? I never noticed that; I'll go back and watch it with headphones. (I can hear a clear heartbeat during the mind lock interrogation scene that I don't hear at all without headphones).

It is going to be so interesting to see what Kylo and Rey experience through their Force bond.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 9:44

SoloSideCousin wrote:
Slade wrote:@Kylo Ren

I don't think Han and Leia are bad people, either.  I think they were unprepared for Ben, and dealing with their own issues, and their own jobs, and definitely Han couldn't relate to Kylo...

I think Leia meant well in sending him to Luke, but it's likely that to Ben, it felt like he was being thrown away because he was "bad."

Snoke probably got in by identifying what young Ben wanted and giving it to him (likely attention and feigned "love" and acceptance).  And it makes no sense at all to me that Leia waited until the events in TFA to tell Han that Snoke had been involved. Why on earth would she do that? (and I don't completely buy the explanation she gave in Bloodlines).

Yes, Driver does convey a sense of "why, father?" when he just crumbles in front of Han after he takes the mask off.  It's difficult to watch because it's so raw.  Driver's a method actor; heaven only knows what in his own prior experience he tapped into to do that scene.

Both the Jedi and Sith are unbalanced and need to find a middle path, which I think Kylo will eventually do.

And regarding parents feeling no need to talk to kids about the bad stuff, like that will make the bad stuff not exist...exactly.  You know, my step niece just graduated high school and will head off to university in a few months.  I just got a photo of her, and when I say she is drop dead gorgeous, I mean it.  My first thought was "I bet her parents never taught her self defense or street sense", because of course they didn't.  And she's going to go off by herself, naive.  Easy pickings for a predator.  But my family would never talk about that.  I guess "nice people" don't (extreme sarcasm).  I don't know if American culture is worse than other countries about this, but it darn sure seems like we have this mindset of "SMILE!  Keep smiling and lying to yourself!"

It would have made a world of difference if Han had been able to say to Ben "I don't understand what you are dealing with, but I love and support you."

@Slade fat

Excellent post, but I wanted to address both of the bolded.

First, Driver is a child of divorce, and I have read enough interviews to get the impression that things with both his father and his mother and stepfather were not all wine and roses.  I don't think he was outright abused or anything, but it doesn't sound like he gabs on the phone with them everyday either.  I think it the documentary AD mentioned how the Han scene was the hardest scene for him, in part because he had to dig up certain things in his own life to get to where he needed to be in the scene.

On your second point, I have a lot of experience dealing with dysfunctional family dynamics through both legal and advocacy work and personal experiences, and I'll tell you, that acting like everything is "cutesy" and fine when there are real things happening that make that not true is probably one of the more problematic things a non-abusive and non-neglectful parent can do to their kid.  Sometimes it results in kids being clueless about the world when they go away to school, which can have effects ranging from relatively "mild" ones like the kid is infantilized and can't manage their affairs to tragic consequences when people are not taught street-smarts.  

I think the street-smart thing is very regional in America.  My mother and her several siblings grew up in the Bronx, so I and all of my extended family got very hardcore lessons of "if you get in a stranger's car X will happen", and believe me "X" was never pretty; if you're careless with your beer and leave it around "Y" will happen, and "Y" was never pretty either.  But at the same time, I was actually raised in the Midwest, and though some people are truthful about the dangers of life with their kids, others don't want to "scare them."  But the thing is, sometimes aspects of life are scary.  You need to know what they are.  But even worse than that is when a family acts like everything is normal and functional and everything is really going to he** in a handbasket.  The kids know something is wrong.  They might not be able to articulate it, but they know.  And if you tell them everything is fine when it is not, I like to call that "crazymaking", because you are saying something opposite to the kid's perception and since you're a parent and they trust you, they are going to start to doubt themselves and it just festers from there.
@SoloSideCousin

Regarding the bolded: I read an interview with driver where he said they didn't keep in touch very well. Driver is so gracious that he didn't trash talk them, but he did say they were very different kinds of people from him. He is a Baptist preacher's kid, and he has said enough to convey that his parents were pretty restrictive on what movies and music he could or could not listen to. I can definitely see the scene on the bridge as being a very difficult one to film.

On a lighter note, I really want to know *who* got to put the itty braids in Driver's hair (visible in photos taken during rehearsals)?? I'm so jealous!
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 9:55

@guardienne

Adam Driver is absolutely the best thing about Girls (though Jessa is pretty cool, too).  Lol, regarding the season finale that just recently showed, where Adam and Jessa tore up their apartment, I like to joke that Kasdan called up Lena Dunham and said, "Hey, Lena, can you let Adam wreck something and throw a total hissy fit so that he will stay on point for Kylo while he's in New York finishing up Girls?"

@Kylo Ren

(I'm falling out laughing)  No, I am not Republican!  OMG!  I'm threatening to expatriate if Trump wins...
I'm a fairly liberal Goth pagan freak who has been around the proverbial block a few times.  A friend of mine once described it like this:  "when you have a (figurative) high-caliber weapon pointed at your head and the person holding it is saying 'think or die!', you darn well start thinking hard about the world you live in."  I guess that explains it.  

Yes, the last few weeks of May are graduation time here.


Last edited by Slade on Fri 27 May - 9:56; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 27 May - 9:55

guardienne wrote:@slade & @solosidecousin someone has done some of the work for us Wink what charges and legal defenses would be available during the inevitable trial of Kylo Ren ...

i find the free will stuff difficult to navigate (never mind legally). he doesn't give me the impression of someone who thinks things through thoroughly or anything, he acts very impulsively and it's a beautiful thing.

i made a friend watch girls (because i can) and she came out saying how driver's character is very vulnerable, an arsehole but vulnerable, and i love that combination. it's so rare that someone is written like that. the only characters like that that i know of are from english kitchen sink drama (I'm not kidding).

i think the level of involvement from all sorts of quarters (even people who bash the character) speaks for itself really.
@guardienne

It's late and I'll need to read it again when I am not exhausted, but I actually don't agree with all of her interpretations or assumptions.  I also question why she is making the presumed attack on the Jedi Temple treasonous.  Is Luke's Wandering Nomad Jedi Colony a state to which Ben is a citizen and thus could be accused of treason? I don't think so.  I'm thinking that whole thing might have been one warlord group against another which works better in a medieval context than a modern one.  As for Han, I don't even know how you could even argue Han was a "non-combatant" when he's been setting bombs to the joint.  Also, Kylo doesn't need Snoke's order to take out Han at that point.  He can just do it right then and there to protect himself against the enemy.  Where Kylo gets into trouble is when he has a conversation with Han.  He could have killed Han on sight, but when he talks to him for a while he opens himself up to straight up murder/manslaughter, not a war crime IMO.  Depending on the jurisdiction Kylo's killing of Han could be first degree murder or second degree murder and maybe even manslaughter if you argue that Kylo was in a compromised mental state and maybe even acquittal if you could make a good enough case for force induced insanity or puppeteering -or- if the rules of war of that jurisdiction still deemed Kylo and Han in a state of opposing enemies regardless of the conversation.  But like @slade said, I don't know international and military law either.  What do you think @slade? You're a criminal law expert.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 27 May - 10:03

Kylo Ren wrote:@SoloSideCousin
'twas bound to happen again....lol...

*holds back tears*
But I meant what I said about you...straight to my heart, your words went...and thank you for that...

Respect

@slade
Yeah...ReyLo force bond ....will be very interesting to explore...

A propos your niece....you can be the wise uncle/aunt and buy her pepper spray or enroll her into some kung fu classes...she'll need that on campus Razz
You seem like a very unortodox American to me...must be now 11th person or something that I met from the States and actually like and share opinions with...all of them are ReyLo...go figure...just please don't say you're a Republican because that would just mess my already messed up mind...because, you know, of all of my prejudices about Americans and American way of life Razz

Btw...is this week a graduation week in the US or something?
@Kylo Ren

LOL! Let go of the prejudices and come visit me some day!  When I lived in England I had to dispel a lot impressions American TV and movies give about us.  You literally can find all sorts here! Walk a block or two and you can find a whole new world, I promise you. Very Happy

And right back at you babe ... I have really missed your voice out here ... Always honest, always completely authentic, always full of life. :-)

Edit: On graduation ... yes, a lot of people graduate in May in the US. And the pools all open this weekend for Memorial Day. May is very busy for a lot of people.
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 10:05

Ok, pretty much off the top of my head and without benefit of actual legal research into the particularities, and presuming United states jurisdiction, and ignoring the whole issue of military law, I think an argument can be made that Han, Rey, Finn were terrorists, engaging in terrorist activity when Kylo killed Han (basically a "self-defense," "defense-of-other," and "necessity" defense).  

I can see a defense attorney trying to raise the defense that Kylo killed Han while under duress from Snoke, but I think anything Snoke was threatening Kylo with in order to get him to kill Han is just too attenuated for a duress defense to work.

I am withholding judgment on the Jedi Temple situation because I'm not convinced Kylo killed anyone there.

Kylo had nothing to do with the destruction of the Hosnian system, as I see it.

I want to know more about that village on Jakku that he ordered the destruction of.  I read somewhere (canon?  Who knows?) that it was a village of religious people who were all Church of the Force, but were also somehow militant (and heavily armed).  Arguably, they were knowingly hiding a criminal (assuming San Tekka was one), so Kylo's order might be ok under military law (I don't know enough).
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Re: Kylo coded as traumatized?

Post by guardienne on Fri 27 May - 10:05

i think even though kylo has ample reason to kill han, the scene doesn't convey those reasons or that he considers them. it's clearly personal to him and has to do with results he hopes for or the orders he's received.

either way, discuss the legal ramifications away, i cannot possibly say even according to my own country's jurisdiction.
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