Rey's dark side?

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Rey's dark side?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 4:57

Rey comes across as such a cinnamon roll, but i think we have seen hints that there is more going on. I was struck by the fear she showed when she first heard BB8 and Teedo and didnt know what it was. I wonder how often people tried to victimize her on Jakku. I think she uses optimism to survive; it seems if she had faced the truth while on Jakku she would have come undone. It will be interesting to see her fears explored in ep. 8.
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by Sylvia Snow on Fri 27 May - 6:00

It will not help much consider now that Kylo will bring out the dark side in her just like he did in the end of TFA
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by Kyla Ren on Fri 27 May - 6:27

@Slade wrote:Rey comes across as such a cinnamon roll, but i think we have seen hints that there is more going on. I was struck by the fear she showed when she first heard BB8 and Teedo and didnt know what it was. I wonder how often people tried to victimize her on Jakku.  I think she uses optimism to survive; it seems if she had faced the truth while on Jakku she would have come undone. It will be interesting to see her fears explored in ep. 8.
@Slade

Yes, I noticed that, too.  When she heard BB8 and Teedo she immediately jumped up.  I got the feeling that she always had to be on her guard and ready to defend herself and her home.

Also, in spite of all the light in her, I can see where her dark side tendencies might really come out given the right circumstances.  I think she has a lot of rage.  Kylo sensed that she still wanted to kill her at the beginning of the interrogation scene.  And at the very end of the movie she was totally doing the Darth Maul Stalk around Kylo when he was lying on the ground.  I actually don't think it would take all that much to push her over the edge to the Dark Side, although I doubt she would stay there permanently.  I think if she finds out that something bad happened to her family or that Luke or someone involved with the Resistance was somehow responsible for what happened to them, she would totally go over to the Dark Side.  I've been wondering if maybe Kylo finds out and tells her and maybe that makes her see things differently and makes her question her loyalties.  I'm just speculating, of course.  It will be interesting to see what happens.
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by Mana on Fri 27 May - 6:39

Oh, Rey is definitely not going to end up a cinnamon roll by the end of this trilogy. She wont be like Luke, who became a pure, idealistic young Jedi. We might have a satisfying ending, but none of our characters will ever be the same. Especially the heroes, who will probably end up in a darker place than where they started, and all the better for it.
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by snufkin on Fri 27 May - 8:33

There's been a lot of talk here about the knee jerk tendencies in some quarters that she has to fulfill the role model/strong female character lead. She's the hero of the trilogy, but given what what was depicted of her life on Jakku, there's some pretty deep seated wells of rage and anger that come out. Mostly because as a young girl/woman, she's had to survive in a violent environment where she's at constant risk of being targeted by predators (doubtful they'd get into the issues of avoiding sexual predators but that has to be part of it). The most telling detail is that you notice in her first encounter with Finn and the fight with Ren, she goes on the offensive immediately. Which may be her nature, but it's probably also because she's had to fight in a place where if you hesitate, you lose or get killed. A lot of the role model interpretations pick up on her being hopeful, kind, and optimistic, which are traits that helped her survive. But those aren't her only qualities and probably there will be complaints going forward about her becoming more complicated than everybody's favorite tomboy from the wrong side of the tracks.  I know the final fight is supposed to be a good girl vs bad guy fist pump moment, but some of the things she does to him at the end honestly feels like she sort of cracks and takes out a lot of her bottled up rage (at what he did to her, to Han and Finn, and in general being disenfranchised) on him.  

Also in general, I'd love to see more in-depth gender issues explored through her, but that probably won't happen (there's always Orphan Black or the Handmaidens Tale). I was just reading Molly Crabapple's memoir, Drawing Blood, and one of her chapters is acceptable/not acceptable ways for young women to be angry. Hopefully some of what they do with Rey will upset peoples' expectations. You almost wonder if the acceptable/not acceptable mindset is why some quarters immediately write off the central relationship as victimizing her:

The right way for a white girl to be angry is to turn her anger inwards. She should be a victim, like the patients in Reviving Ophelia, a psychiatrist’s late-90s textbook on broken girlhood. She should starve or cut or b*** boys who treat her badly. A crusading shrink should scoop her up, and return her to good grades, tasteful clothes, and happiness–heart and hymen intact.
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 10:11

@snufkin wrote:There's been a lot of talk here about the knee jerk tendencies in some quarters that she has to fulfill the role model/strong female character lead. She's the hero of the trilogy, but given what what was depicted of her life on Jakku, there's some pretty deep seated wells of rage and anger that come out. Mostly because as a young girl/woman, she's had to survive in a violent environment where she's at constant risk of being targeted by predators (doubtful they'd get into the issues of avoiding sexual predators but that has to be part of it). The most telling detail is that you notice in her first encounter with Finn and the fight with Ren, she goes on the offensive immediately. Which may be her nature, but it's probably also because she's had to fight in a place where if you hesitate, you lose or get killed. A lot of the role model interpretations pick up on her being hopeful, kind, and optimistic, which are traits that helped her survive. But those aren't her only qualities and probably there will be complaints going forward about her becoming more complicated than everybody's favorite tomboy from the wrong side of the tracks.  I know the final fight is supposed to be a good girl vs bad guy fist pump moment, but some of the things she does to him at the end honestly feels like she sort of cracks and takes out a lot of her bottled up rage (at what he did to her, to Han and Finn, and in general being disenfranchised) on him.  

Also in general, I'd love to see more in-depth gender issues explored through her, but that probably won't happen (there's always Orphan Black or the Handmaidens Tale). I was just reading Molly Crabapple's memoir, Drawing Blood, and one of her chapters is acceptable/not acceptable ways for young women to be angry. Hopefully some of what they do with Rey will upset peoples' expectations. You almost wonder if the acceptable/not acceptable mindset is why some quarters immediately write off the central relationship as victimizing her:

The right way for a white girl to be angry is to turn her anger inwards. She should be a victim, like the patients in Reviving Ophelia, a psychiatrist’s late-90s textbook on broken girlhood. She should starve or cut or b*** boys who treat her badly. A crusading shrink should scoop her up, and return her to good grades, tasteful clothes, and happiness–heart and hymen intact.
@snufkin

OMG yes.  All of this.  I have no patience for the "role model" argument.  People said the same thing in the '90's when Thelma and Louise came out, but they don't complain about bad role models when a movie with violent male characters comes out. It never crosses their minds to do so. If they don't want their kids to see that character, they don't take their kids to that movie. Simple.    And yes, Rey is predatory at the end of the fight.

Holy moly, that bolded part...exactly.  And the repercussions for being publicly angry and outspoken are **terrifying** (rape and death threats).  Women's outward-expressed anger is seldom seen as valid, and I think this "role model" business is connected to that mentality somehow.  And it seems that what those people think is an acceptable role model is the same old tired trope of "good" womanhood (quiet, pleasing, acceptably angry at acceptable things, like taxes, but never at something like rape).  And back to that Molly Crabapple quote, it seems if a female *is* engaging in cutting, starving, etc, she will be written off as mentally ill, not angry; her actions will be seen *solely* as indicative of her mental illness, completely disconnected from anything in our culture, because what on earth in our culture could make her do such a thing? (sarcasm)  No, to them, she simply got mentally ill the way one "gets" chicken pox.


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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 10:16

Just a thought here: it's funny how for a woman, just wearing all black and saying "f***" is seen as an unacceptable level of rebellion.
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 11:30

@Kylo Ren wrote:True...even in Europe...but I have done far worse than that....
Sometimes you just gotta stick it to the man (as in hypocrytical society of false values, and not guys)
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Nooo...don't kill my illusions about Europe!
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by snufkin on Fri 27 May - 19:02

@Slade wrote:
@snufkin wrote:There's been a lot of talk here about the knee jerk tendencies in some quarters that she has to fulfill the role model/strong female character lead. She's the hero of the trilogy, but given what what was depicted of her life on Jakku, there's some pretty deep seated wells of rage and anger that come out. Mostly because as a young girl/woman, she's had to survive in a violent environment where she's at constant risk of being targeted by predators (doubtful they'd get into the issues of avoiding sexual predators but that has to be part of it). The most telling detail is that you notice in her first encounter with Finn and the fight with Ren, she goes on the offensive immediately. Which may be her nature, but it's probably also because she's had to fight in a place where if you hesitate, you lose or get killed. A lot of the role model interpretations pick up on her being hopeful, kind, and optimistic, which are traits that helped her survive. But those aren't her only qualities and probably there will be complaints going forward about her becoming more complicated than everybody's favorite tomboy from the wrong side of the tracks.  I know the final fight is supposed to be a good girl vs bad guy fist pump moment, but some of the things she does to him at the end honestly feels like she sort of cracks and takes out a lot of her bottled up rage (at what he did to her, to Han and Finn, and in general being disenfranchised) on him.  

Also in general, I'd love to see more in-depth gender issues explored through her, but that probably won't happen (there's always Orphan Black or the Handmaidens Tale). I was just reading Molly Crabapple's memoir, Drawing Blood, and one of her chapters is acceptable/not acceptable ways for young women to be angry. Hopefully some of what they do with Rey will upset peoples' expectations. You almost wonder if the acceptable/not acceptable mindset is why some quarters immediately write off the central relationship as victimizing her:

The right way for a white girl to be angry is to turn her anger inwards. She should be a victim, like the patients in Reviving Ophelia, a psychiatrist’s late-90s textbook on broken girlhood. She should starve or cut or b*** boys who treat her badly. A crusading shrink should scoop her up, and return her to good grades, tasteful clothes, and happiness–heart and hymen intact.
@snufkin

OMG yes.  All of this.  I have no patience for the "role model" argument.  People said the same thing in the '90's when Thelma and Louise came out, but they don't complain about bad role models when a movie with violent male characters comes out.  It never crosses their minds to do so.  If they don't want their kids to see that character, they don't take their kids to that movie. Simple.    And yes, Rey is predatory at the end of the fight.

Holy moly, that bolded part...exactly.  And the repercussions for being publicly angry and outspoken are **terrifying** (rape and death threats).  Women's outward-expressed anger is seldom seen as valid, and I think this "role model" business is connected to that mentality somehow.  And it seems that what those people think is an acceptable role model is the same old tired trope of "good" womanhood (quiet, pleasing, acceptably angry at acceptable things, like taxes, but never at something like rape).  And back to that Molly Crabapple quote, it seems if a female *is* engaging in cutting, starving, etc, she will be written off as mentally ill, not angry; her actions will be seen *solely* as indicative of her mental illness, completely disconnected from anything in our culture, because what on earth in our culture could make her do such a thing? (sarcasm)  No, to them, she simply got mentally ill the way one "gets" chicken pox.
@Slade

Agreed in the bolded. I've half joked that the IX movie should be Rey and Leia going F*** the Patriarchy, stealing the Falcon and going on a Thelma & Louise joyride. It's be a 2nd Wave and 3rd Wave Feminist team up.

Yeah the "Rey is a role model, she can't do _________" (mostly bang the Big Bad, which she already did twice via the Force) stuff is fake feminism wrapped up the same old ideas about what is acceptable (not threatening to the status quo) female behavior. If they go that route, it'll be interesting to see the fallout from all the people who were falling all over themselves patting themselves on the back about how down they are with a female lead. It's the same thing as Respectability Politics - see the ongoing debate about how to treat sex workers (which is something Molly Crabapple talks at length about her book, having been in the "Naked Girl Business" for part of her early 20s).

On a side note, the whole scene with Maz really made me feel for her. Regardless of whether or not you think she's being immature/childish for holding on to the illusion that she's temporarily stuck on Jakku waiting for her family to come get her, I was not cool with Maz's "Well they're dead. Now moving right along, let me lay down this huge a** terrifying responsibility on your shoulders." No wonder she told her Hell no and ran off into the forest. Not that it kept her from running right into him, but poor woman isn't even allowed a few minutes to finally experience grief over realizing that her parents have been dead all along and that she was on her own.
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 27 May - 20:31

@snufkin wrote:

Yeah the "Rey is a role model, she can't do _________" (mostly bang the Big Bad, which she already did twice via the Force) stuff is fake feminism wrapped up the same old ideas about what is acceptable (not threatening to the status quo) female behavior. If they go that route, it'll be interesting to see the fallout from all the people who were falling all over themselves patting themselves on the back about how down they are with a female lead. It's the same thing as Respectability Politics - see the ongoing debate about how to treat sex workers (which is something Molly Crabapple talks at length about her book, having been in the "Naked Girl Business" for part of her early 20s).

On a side note, the whole scene with Maz really made me feel for her. Regardless of whether or not you think she's being immature/childish for holding on to the illusion that she's temporarily stuck on Jakku waiting for her family to come get her, I was not cool with Maz's "Well they're dead. Now moving right along, let me lay down this huge a** terrifying responsibility on your shoulders." No wonder she told her Hell no and ran off into the forest. Not that it kept her from running right into him, but poor woman isn't even allowed a few minutes to finally experience grief over realizing that her parents have been dead all along and that she was on her own.
@snufkin

I'm so with you on that. No wonder she took off. Poor Rey just had her entire world viewpoint turned on its head and was given zero time to process.

As much as I adore Maz in the fairy godmother sense, she sure had a pretty tone-deaf way to communicate Rey's likely destiny to her.
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by snufkin on Fri 27 May - 20:40

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:

On a side note, the whole scene with Maz really made me feel for her. Regardless of whether or not you think she's being immature/childish for holding on to the illusion that she's temporarily stuck on Jakku waiting for her family to come get her, I was not cool with Maz's "Well they're dead. Now moving right along, let me lay down this huge a** terrifying responsibility on your shoulders." No wonder she told her Hell no and ran off into the forest. Not that it kept her from running right into him, but poor woman isn't even allowed a few minutes to finally experience grief over realizing that her parents have been dead all along and that she was on her own.
@snufkin

I'm so with you on that. No wonder she took off. Poor Rey just had her entire world viewpoint turned on its head and was given zero time to process.

As much as I adore Maz in the fairy godmother sense, she sure had a pretty tone-deaf way to communicate Rey's likely destiny to her.
[/quote]
@ISeeAnIsland

Seriously. Congrats Maz on helping Rey with passing the Bechdel test. But if she's supposedly based on a teacher JJ Abrams had in real life, hopefully the actual woman was a little more sensitive in delivering tough advice. Rey needed to hear reality in cold hard terms. But at least get the girl a stiff drink and allow her to have a good cry over the delayed reaction to her parents' deaths and freaky overwhelming Force vision. Not to mention how she's finally having a breakdown over how alone she feels.
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 27 May - 21:27

@snufkin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:

On a side note, the whole scene with Maz really made me feel for her. Regardless of whether or not you think she's being immature/childish for holding on to the illusion that she's temporarily stuck on Jakku waiting for her family to come get her, I was not cool with Maz's "Well they're dead. Now moving right along, let me lay down this huge a** terrifying responsibility on your shoulders." No wonder she told her Hell no and ran off into the forest. Not that it kept her from running right into him, but poor woman isn't even allowed a few minutes to finally experience grief over realizing that her parents have been dead all along and that she was on her own.
@snufkin

I'm so with you on that. No wonder she took off. Poor Rey just had her entire world viewpoint turned on its head and was given zero time to process.

As much as I adore Maz in the fairy godmother sense, she sure had a pretty tone-deaf way to communicate Rey's likely destiny to her.
@ISeeAnIsland

Seriously. Congrats Maz on helping Rey with passing the Bechdel test. But if she's supposedly based on a teacher JJ Abrams had in real life, hopefully the actual woman was a little more sensitive in delivering tough advice. Rey needed to hear reality in cold hard terms. But at least get the girl a stiff drink and allow her to have a good cry over the delayed reaction to her parents' deaths and freaky overwhelming Force vision. Not to mention how she's finally having a breakdown over how alone she feels. [/quote]
@snufkin

Right? You'd think that Maz could have at least cushioned the blow by saying, "Okay, that scary guy that you saw in your vision? Under the mask, he's actually a hot young guy who wants to shag you."

(Obviously, they're not going to have Maz say that in the movie for storytelling reasons, but still... There could have been something cryptic and reassuring that she could have said to her.)
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by snufkin on Fri 27 May - 21:41

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Right? You'd think that Maz could have at least cushioned the blow by saying, "Okay, that scary guy that you saw in your vision? Under the mask, he's actually a hot young guy who wants to shag you."

(Obviously, they're not going to have Maz say that in the movie for storytelling reasons, but still... There could have been something cryptic and reassuring that she could have said to her.)
@ISeeAnIsland

"Someone who could still" is about as close as she's going to get to that advice. I have to admit, I disliked Yoda and Maz kind of rubs me the same way with unhelpful cryptic advice.
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by Slade on Fri 27 May - 23:03

It's going to be interesting when Rey finally gets some down time and all this stuff comes to the surface for her to deal with.
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 27 May - 23:07

@Slade wrote:It's going to be interesting when Rey finally gets some down time and all this stuff comes to the surface for her to deal with.
@Slade

Absolutely! And "down time" will likely come on Ahch-To with Luke in whatever his current mental state is...and then to have Kylo likely soon added to the mix. It's going to be interesting.
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by snufkin on Fri 27 May - 23:12

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Slade wrote:It's going to be interesting when Rey finally gets some down time and all this stuff comes to the surface for her to deal with.
@Slade

Absolutely! And "down time" will likely come on Ahch-To with Luke in whatever his current mental state is...and then to have Kylo likely soon added to the mix. It's going to be interesting.
@ISeeAnIsland

It'll be like my old guilty pleasure reality TV show, Starting Over, where they lock a bunch of people in emotional recovery in a house with Oprah's life coach friend (Iyala? Can't remember her name).

They do a good job with the initial montage showing her life in Jakku of showing things like how f***ing hard she works as a scavenger and in return, being cheated/abused by Plutt (notice how she glares at him) and his minions. Not to mention the blatant, "here we'll play some sad music and show her scratching lines on a wall of her hovel" to get across the loneliness. She's had to keep her head down and power through both that and getting thrown into a larger situation. She'll be getting some island fever sitting around with Luke and his issues, which is when it'll finally start to come out (and then Mr. Hot Mess shows up to fight and make eyes at her).

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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by snufkin on Sat 28 May - 6:40

To go with the discussion and allowing female characters to be complicated instead of presenting as strong but not challenging morality/status quo views

U Mad Bro? We're Ready for the Age of Kickass Female Superheroes

The thing is, women aren’t supposed to be strong-willed and be able to beat people up (or kill them). Jessica’s a hot mess yet she doesn’t play the victim card. The archaic role of a man is to be virulent and valiant and fight to the finish, which is what Jessica does, but in a more in-depth way.

Men are frightened of a complicated female (perhaps because men know deep down they are the weaker species?). When women are seen as flawed, they are sometimes viewed as a “crazy b****,”

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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 28 May - 7:15

@snufkin wrote:To go with the discussion and allowing female characters to be complicated instead of presenting as strong but not challenging morality/status quo views

U Mad Bro? We're Ready for the Age of Kickass Female Superheroes

The thing is, women aren’t supposed to be strong-willed and be able to beat people up (or kill them). Jessica’s a hot mess yet she doesn’t play the victim card. The archaic role of a man is to be virulent and valiant and fight to the finish, which is what Jessica does, but in a more in-depth way.

Men are frightened of a complicated female (perhaps because men know deep down they are the weaker species?). When women are seen as flawed, they are sometimes viewed as a “crazy b****,”

@snufkin

I really, really loved the first season of Jessica Jones on Netflix for the very reasons that they talk about in that article. I can't think of another comparable female character that I've seen onscreen (although depending on where they go with Rey, she's got that potential on a PG/PG-13 level). And as much as I loved Furiosa for being kick-a**, she wasn't allowed the flaws and vulnerability that Jessica had and that are hinted at with Rey.
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by snufkin on Sat 28 May - 21:03

@ISeeAnIsland - I really hope that they go that route with Rey, especially if she's put in the position of dealing with crazy Luke and his equally crazy nephew, by refusing to kill him despite what the latter has put her through.

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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by EchoBase on Sat 28 May - 23:07

I am just leaving this here, just to have an impression:



Edit: yes, it's Daisy!



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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 28 May - 23:26

@snufkin wrote:@ISeeAnIsland - I really hope that they go that route with Rey, especially if she's put in the position of dealing with crazy Luke and his equally crazy nephew, by refusing to kill him despite what the latter has put her through.

@snufkin

Exactly! And what if it becomes apparent (for at least a little while) that crazy nephew actually seems more sane than crazy Luke?

I salivate at the dramatic potential of a situation where Rey (and the audience) start to side with Kylo over Luke.
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Re: Rey's dark side?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 29 May - 1:49

@EchoBase wrote:I am just living this here, just to have an impression:

@EchoBase

Is that Daisy? Holy sith! Bring on that darker Rey! Kylo will lose his mind! Laughing
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