Why did Kylo step back?

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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by SoloSideCousin on 6/6/2016, 1:43 am

@Slade wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@snufkin wrote:You kind of think all of this means that Harrison Ford will have to be back in the next movie to give the full backstory of what happened to make Ben fall to the DS and how that fed off of his feelings of abandonment from his parents. Especially to give context to why Snoke pushed him in the direction of killing Han. I'd be really surprised if they didn't include some examples of Han's less than stellar parenting in either a flashback or even if it's Ben being subjected to Han and Leia yelling at each other (which it sounds like it happened often) in another room w/out taking into account that he can hear everything.

@Slade wrote:You know, it's funny that when Han offers Rey a job, he flat out tells her "I wouldn't be nice to you."
@Slade

He's not even that concerned when she's kidnapped and his whole "you okay?" comment is the extent of him showing concern.

@snufkin

Harrison Ford has been cryptic about Han in interviews, saying that Han is "just sleeping." I do think that Han is really dead, but I would not be surprised one bit if they secretly filmed some flashback scenes with Han ... particularly if Harrison just did a voice over of a blurry scene from far in the past in childhood. Something like that would make a huge impact for the audience IMO.
@SoloSideCousin

Well, that's weird. Ford was referring to what Han is doing right now? Or what han was doing while Kylo was growing up?
@Slade

He was referring to what Han was doing "right now." I think the cryptic answers were always in response to questions about Han's death. He seems to have a very dry wit when he wants to, and I have a feeling that he is not a huge fan of the entertainment press, so maybe he's just teasing. But it is interesting nonetheless. :-)
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by panki on 6/6/2016, 2:15 am

I don't think Han was a violent or abusive parent...but I get the feeling that Ben's early memories of Han were happy ones and he loved his father a lot......but Han pulled away from Ben when he discovered he was FS....maybe he felt that he was out of his depth with force sensitivity and Luke/Leia might be better equipped to handle Ben (In TFA, Han tells Leia that if Luke couldn't reach him, how could he reach him)....maybe he felt disappointed that he could never teach his son to be a pilot like him so shifted to mentoring other promising young pilots....maybe it was both.....but I think Han just kept quiet and stayed away.

Snoke must have used this as ammunition to tell Ben that his father doesn't care for him and would never be able to save him when Snoke was messing with his mind as a child (the "Han Solo can't save you now" line in TFA) and Ben was therefore hurt and disappointed in Han.

Now at the time of the TFA, Snoke hints that Kylo will be tested and must kill Han..... he sees the MF and says 'Han Solo' in a tone that I felt was tinged with sadness......then he misdirected the storm troopers and looked for Han himself.....Han shielded his thoughts and managed to initially evade Kylo (I wonder if he learnt the trick from years of evading FS relatives when he wanted his own space)...so Kylo walks away thinking he can avoid meeting Han....

However, Han called out to him on the walkway and we see him visibly flinch....then he tries to use bravado to cope by telling him he killed Ben because he was weak like Han etc...but Han advances anyway....Kylo tepped back because he is terribly conflicted... he feels he has a test and a destiny to fulfill......he also loves his father and doesn't have the strength to do what Snoke asks of him.....and he feels hurt and anger at what he considers abandonment by Han.....Kylo is a mess on that walkway even before Han died.

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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by Reynak on 6/6/2016, 3:26 am

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Slade wrote:@Snufkin

As Snufkin mentioned upthread, outsiders don't often see that how a parent treats his kid can be different from how he treats other people.  But if we go look back in the OT, Han very often is abrasive, arrogant, argumentative, self-centered,  and extremely rude to those around him (on Hoth, at Mos Eisley, to droids, to Leia).  He is also a criminal, so obviously he doesn't hold himself to the social and legal rules that many of the people around him do.  So I'm not buying that Han was a great guy to non family.  Honestly, I see him treating a young child the way he treats droids (rudely telling BB8 "move, ball", ignoring 3PO in the OT, eye-rolling, etc).
@Slade

@snufkin wrote:
@Slade wrote:@Snufkin


Even if he's being an a** about it, that's kind of my impression when Ben/Kylo tells Rey that even if she's already started to think of him as a father figure, Han would've disappointed her.  
@snufkin

I've always loved Han, but part of his charm in a weird way was how he could be kind of a jacka**.  He was the more "real-guy"/ "What the he** is this Force crap?" antidote to the Leia's super princess and Luke's Jedi wunderkind.  But at the same time, I completely agree, he can be extremely protective to those he loves, but his patience is thing and he gives you no impression whatsoever that he was capable of turning into Alex P. Keaton's dad or Marty Crane with Niles and Frasier, lol.  And I bring up those sitcom examples because you get the schtick of how fathers deal with their very different sons.  I don't think Han would be anywhere near as successful at bridging that gap with Ben.  In fact, if either of you read Bloodline, he and Leia are still fun and adventurous, but they have not morphed into "parental types" at all.  They actually really seem like that great couple that never should have had kids.  JJ intimated as much during the documentary, saying that Han and Leia were great, but they were volatile ... and the problem was "they had this kid ... and he is broken."

I think it might have been better if Han had a non-FS kid who saw the world the same way he did, but he didn't, and he couldn't deal IMO.  He had a kid who not only seems like he is a force prodigy, but AD's performance also gives the impression that Ben is extremely emotionally sensitive.  (I will address the dissociative issue in another post @slade ... I am very interested in checking out that article).  Han and Leia are kind of anything, but sensitive.  The phrase "tough as nails" comes to mind for them.  That phrase does not come to mind for even an unmasked Kylo Ren.

And maybe this is just me pulling ideas out of my butt, but I wonder if the fact that Kylo/Ben seems to be so incredibly gifted in his mind-reading is also a huge clue, beyond AD's watery eyes and anguished looks, that Kylo/Ben's emotional sensitivity might be off the charts.  To be able to pick that much up indicates a serious empath level of hyper-sensitivity for emotions and that would in turn indicate an ability to not just feel things almost imperceptible in others, but also in himself.  That kind of sensitivity could be crushing, especially if he could sense his father's and mother's every little annoyance even when his parents were barely aware of it themselves.  Maybe that's why he started to ease with Han at some point on the bridge, because this time, for once, he could feel the raw honesty and love, but then the guardian (Kylo) or Snoke or whatever, stepped in and made him do what he didn't want to do when he handed over the lightsaber.

On Kylo warning Rey off of Han, despite the setting, I think he actually meant it in as empathetic a way as possible given that he was in mind-reading mode, almost like a "Don't let that jacka** take you down the primrose path like he did with me."  I think he was quite irritated that she thought so much of Han, but if he didn't have any empathy about it, he might have just been cutting and said, "You're an idiot if you think that guy is worth anything."  Instead he said, "disappointed," like she was worth enough to not be disappointed, like he saw her as better than Han Solo.
@SoloSideCousin


The fact that he says Han would have disappointed her doesn't necessarily mean he sees Rey as better than Han, just that he identifies with her in the child's role to Han's father. I don't think Kylo thinks he deserved better than he got because self loathing in him is monumental. Disappointment comes when you think highly of someone and he lets you down. It's crueler than treason from a stranger. You admire or love a person ( or both) and he lets you down. So I don't get the impression that he is thinking Rey is better, only that she is mistaken in putting such expectations in Han because he will disappoint her and she will suffer for it, like Ben did and probably still does.

When you say someone disappointed you this implies you loved him once and thought highly of him but he let you down.
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by SoloSideCousin on 6/6/2016, 9:51 am

@Reynak wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Slade wrote:@Snufkin

As Snufkin mentioned upthread, outsiders don't often see that how a parent treats his kid can be different from how he treats other people.  But if we go look back in the OT, Han very often is abrasive, arrogant, argumentative, self-centered,  and extremely rude to those around him (on Hoth, at Mos Eisley, to droids, to Leia).  He is also a criminal, so obviously he doesn't hold himself to the social and legal rules that many of the people around him do.  So I'm not buying that Han was a great guy to non family.  Honestly, I see him treating a young child the way he treats droids (rudely telling BB8 "move, ball", ignoring 3PO in the OT, eye-rolling, etc).
@Slade

@snufkin wrote:
@Slade wrote:@Snufkin


Even if he's being an a** about it, that's kind of my impression when Ben/Kylo tells Rey that even if she's already started to think of him as a father figure, Han would've disappointed her.  
@snufkin

I've always loved Han, but part of his charm in a weird way was how he could be kind of a jacka**.  He was the more "real-guy"/ "What the he** is this Force crap?" antidote to the Leia's super princess and Luke's Jedi wunderkind.  But at the same time, I completely agree, he can be extremely protective to those he loves, but his patience is thing and he gives you no impression whatsoever that he was capable of turning into Alex P. Keaton's dad or Marty Crane with Niles and Frasier, lol.  And I bring up those sitcom examples because you get the schtick of how fathers deal with their very different sons.  I don't think Han would be anywhere near as successful at bridging that gap with Ben.  In fact, if either of you read Bloodline, he and Leia are still fun and adventurous, but they have not morphed into "parental types" at all.  They actually really seem like that great couple that never should have had kids.  JJ intimated as much during the documentary, saying that Han and Leia were great, but they were volatile ... and the problem was "they had this kid ... and he is broken."

I think it might have been better if Han had a non-FS kid who saw the world the same way he did, but he didn't, and he couldn't deal IMO.  He had a kid who not only seems like he is a force prodigy, but AD's performance also gives the impression that Ben is extremely emotionally sensitive.  (I will address the dissociative issue in another post @slade ... I am very interested in checking out that article).  Han and Leia are kind of anything, but sensitive.  The phrase "tough as nails" comes to mind for them.  That phrase does not come to mind for even an unmasked Kylo Ren.

And maybe this is just me pulling ideas out of my butt, but I wonder if the fact that Kylo/Ben seems to be so incredibly gifted in his mind-reading is also a huge clue, beyond AD's watery eyes and anguished looks, that Kylo/Ben's emotional sensitivity might be off the charts.  To be able to pick that much up indicates a serious empath level of hyper-sensitivity for emotions and that would in turn indicate an ability to not just feel things almost imperceptible in others, but also in himself.  That kind of sensitivity could be crushing, especially if he could sense his father's and mother's every little annoyance even when his parents were barely aware of it themselves.  Maybe that's why he started to ease with Han at some point on the bridge, because this time, for once, he could feel the raw honesty and love, but then the guardian (Kylo) or Snoke or whatever, stepped in and made him do what he didn't want to do when he handed over the lightsaber.

On Kylo warning Rey off of Han, despite the setting, I think he actually meant it in as empathetic a way as possible given that he was in mind-reading mode, almost like a "Don't let that jacka** take you down the primrose path like he did with me."  I think he was quite irritated that she thought so much of Han, but if he didn't have any empathy about it, he might have just been cutting and said, "You're an idiot if you think that guy is worth anything."  Instead he said, "disappointed," like she was worth enough to not be disappointed, like he saw her as better than Han Solo.
@SoloSideCousin


The fact that he says Han would have disappointed her doesn't necessarily mean he sees Rey as better than Han, just that he identifies with her in the child's role to Han's father. I don't think Kylo thinks he deserved better than he got because self loathing in him is monumental. Disappointment comes when you think highly of someone and he lets you down. It's crueler than treason from a stranger. You admire or love a person ( or both) and he lets you down. So I don't get the impression that he is thinking Rey is better, only that she is mistaken in putting such expectations in Han because he will disappoint her and she will suffer for it, like Ben did and probably still does.

When you say someone disappointed you this implies you loved him once and thought highly of him but he let you down.
@Reynak

I don't know ... maybe I overstated it, but I do think Kylo could have been a much bigger jerk about it. He could have really mocked her for thinking anything of Han Solo. And I realize he is expressing his own disappointment here because he did love Han a lot, but at the same time he seems to be warning her off of Han ... which indicates that he thinks her to be more than a scavenger/lowly whatever ...In other words, that she is worth enough, that he cares enough to give her that warning. I see it as one more piece evidence showing that he is drawn to and protective of her. And when you add all this in with the gentle interrogation (by Kylo and FO standards, the bridal carry, the crouching before her, and that's before you get into the obvious attraction, it just makes me think again that there is something more here than his desire such as a vision or a prophecy.
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by snufkin on 6/6/2016, 10:47 am

As always @panki says it best. I agree that Ben probably really looked up to his father (c'mon the man is an icon) when he was a child and gradually their differences in temperament/FS abilities drove a wedge between them that really hurt the son. And Snoke took advantage of that as much as he could.

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Reynak wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Slade wrote:@Snufkin

As Snufkin mentioned upthread, outsiders don't often see that how a parent treats his kid can be different from how he treats other people.  But if we go look back in the OT, Han very often is abrasive, arrogant, argumentative, self-centered,  and extremely rude to those around him (on Hoth, at Mos Eisley, to droids, to Leia).  He is also a criminal, so obviously he doesn't hold himself to the social and legal rules that many of the people around him do.  So I'm not buying that Han was a great guy to non family.  Honestly, I see him treating a young child the way he treats droids (rudely telling BB8 "move, ball", ignoring 3PO in the OT, eye-rolling, etc).
@Slade

@snufkin wrote:
@Slade wrote:@Snufkin


Even if he's being an a** about it, that's kind of my impression when Ben/Kylo tells Rey that even if she's already started to think of him as a father figure, Han would've disappointed her.  
@snufkin

I've always loved Han, but part of his charm in a weird way was how he could be kind of a jacka**.  He was the more "real-guy"/ "What the he** is this Force crap?" antidote to the Leia's super princess and Luke's Jedi wunderkind.  But at the same time, I completely agree, he can be extremely protective to those he loves, but his patience is thing and he gives you no impression whatsoever that he was capable of turning into Alex P. Keaton's dad or Marty Crane with Niles and Frasier, lol.  And I bring up those sitcom examples because you get the schtick of how fathers deal with their very different sons.  I don't think Han would be anywhere near as successful at bridging that gap with Ben.  In fact, if either of you read Bloodline, he and Leia are still fun and adventurous, but they have not morphed into "parental types" at all.  They actually really seem like that great couple that never should have had kids.  JJ intimated as much during the documentary, saying that Han and Leia were great, but they were volatile ... and the problem was "they had this kid ... and he is broken."

I think it might have been better if Han had a non-FS kid who saw the world the same way he did, but he didn't, and he couldn't deal IMO.  He had a kid who not only seems like he is a force prodigy, but AD's performance also gives the impression that Ben is extremely emotionally sensitive.  (I will address the dissociative issue in another post @slade ... I am very interested in checking out that article).  Han and Leia are kind of anything, but sensitive.  The phrase "tough as nails" comes to mind for them.  That phrase does not come to mind for even an unmasked Kylo Ren.

And maybe this is just me pulling ideas out of my butt, but I wonder if the fact that Kylo/Ben seems to be so incredibly gifted in his mind-reading is also a huge clue, beyond AD's watery eyes and anguished looks, that Kylo/Ben's emotional sensitivity might be off the charts.  To be able to pick that much up indicates a serious empath level of hyper-sensitivity for emotions and that would in turn indicate an ability to not just feel things almost imperceptible in others, but also in himself.  That kind of sensitivity could be crushing, especially if he could sense his father's and mother's every little annoyance even when his parents were barely aware of it themselves.  Maybe that's why he started to ease with Han at some point on the bridge, because this time, for once, he could feel the raw honesty and love, but then the guardian (Kylo) or Snoke or whatever, stepped in and made him do what he didn't want to do when he handed over the lightsaber.

On Kylo warning Rey off of Han, despite the setting, I think he actually meant it in as empathetic a way as possible given that he was in mind-reading mode, almost like a "Don't let that jacka** take you down the primrose path like he did with me."  I think he was quite irritated that she thought so much of Han, but if he didn't have any empathy about it, he might have just been cutting and said, "You're an idiot if you think that guy is worth anything."  Instead he said, "disappointed," like she was worth enough to not be disappointed, like he saw her as better than Han Solo.
@SoloSideCousin


The fact that he says Han would have disappointed her doesn't necessarily mean he sees Rey as better than Han, just that he identifies with her in the child's role to Han's father. I don't think Kylo thinks he deserved better than he got because self loathing in him is monumental. Disappointment comes when you think highly of someone and he lets you down. It's crueler than treason from a stranger. You admire or love a person ( or both) and he lets you down. So I don't get the impression that he is thinking Rey is better, only that she is mistaken in putting such expectations in Han because he will disappoint her and she will suffer for it, like Ben did and probably still does.

When you say someone disappointed you this implies you loved him once and thought highly of him but he let you down.
@Reynak

I don't know ... maybe I overstated it, but I do think Kylo could have been a much bigger jerk about it. He could have really mocked her for thinking anything of Han Solo. And I realize he is expressing his own disappointment here because he did love Han a lot, but at the same time he seems to be warning her off of Han ... which indicates that he thinks her to be more than a scavenger/lowly whatever ...In other words, that she is worth enough, that he cares enough to give her that warning. I see it as one more piece evidence showing that he is drawn to and protective of her. And when you add all this in with the gentle interrogation (by Kylo and FO standards, the bridal carry, the crouching before her, and that's before you get into the obvious attraction, it just makes me think again that there is something more here than his desire such as a vision or a prophecy.
@SoloSideCousin

I'd agree that his at least for now possessiveness has some root in being overly if inappropriately protective and invested in her. Maybe even in his mind, he keeps trying to keep her as his 'guest' to protect her from the Resistance and that traitor Finn. Will be interesting to see if they go the route of him also having had visions of her. My first viewing, I assumed that he got all freaked out and obsessive about her at first mention because he thought she was from Lor San Tekka's village and had managed to get away with the map *or* working on behalf of the Resistance. And that he becomes infatuated/obsessive when he finally corners her, reads her mind and realizes that she's just a highly motivated bystander who feels protective of cute little droids, and most important, when he finally sees her in person and does the elevator eyes, it's a total coup de foudre for him. Like I said, will be interesting to see if they ever spell all of those motivations out for him.


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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by ladyconsular on 6/6/2016, 7:13 pm

I always got the impression that Kylo Ren is not the grown man he should be mentally, but a misbehaving boy with too much power. He acts embarrassed and ashamed when Hux tells Snoke his focus on Rey lost them the droid. When he's trying to read her mind in the forest and the Trooper approaches, he backs away and acts as if he's caught doing a bad thing and after Rey bests him he runs to Snoke and points back at Rey as if telling on her to "dad" so seeing his father who is not backing down, come toward him, he was probably thinking he was about to be scolded for bad deeds.

I don't know why, I just have trouble seeing him as anything but a lost boy who is losing control of everything and has no one to truly guide him.

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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by Slade on 6/6/2016, 8:18 pm

That's exactly how he acts. Good observation with him pointing back when he tattles on Rey. I don't think he has ever been allowed to grow up; he has always had a father figure controlling and watching him, and he cant get away because Snoke seems to be able to get in his head.
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by SoloSideCousin on 6/6/2016, 9:35 pm

@Slade wrote:That's exactly how he acts. Good observation with him pointing back when he tattles on Rey. I don't think he has ever been allowed to grow up; he has always had a father figure controlling and watching him, and he cant get away because Snoke seems to be able to get in his head.
@Slade

I agree. There is definitely a teenage aura to him at times, but then when he is full-on, almost bored "Put him on board" Kylo Ren he's like someone who was never a child at all ... except when the rage attacks break through ... which to me, in light of dissociative aspects of him that you were discussing earlier @slade, is possibly the outward manifestation of his duelling halves having a fight.

I believe that throughout TFA the more dormant Ben keeps breaking through, but maybe after being suppressed so long, Ben is just really shaky ... also Ben hates himself so he'd fight to put him back in his box. You know you actually could read the whole catwalk scene as Kylo/Ben literally being "torn apart, like the two sides warring in some weird way with Ben really getting the upper hand until Kylo the dark guardian rises up, like some kind of internal "extinction burst" and once again doea what he thinks Ben can't handle. The script says Kylo is shocked and horrified by what's he's done. Why? Why shocked? Shocked indicates surprise ... but hiw could he be surprised? He was right there. However, Adam Driver plays the kill moment very different than the seconds before. Before AD is hopeful.and watery-eyed ... then something goes blank, his emotions are muted until he looks iver the side and gets that gutted look on his face. I always took that as a kind Manchurian!Kylo or "The dark/Snoke just take over kind of moment." But what if it wasn't that? What if it was a disassociation? What if the extreme stress made Kylo step in?

A lot of people don't like those notions because Kylo won't have full agency and then his redemption story won't have the full kick of seeing him suffer and atone.

But what if it's not a full redemption story? What if it's a story of mental illness and bad influences in this age if total uncertainty and runaway young people falling into violence and following false leaders around the world. AD talks about how Ben had ni guidance. JJ said he was watched and pushed towards the dark. Kathleen Kennedy had an interview where first she said he was young, so that gave them a chance to use teenage experiences; second, she said that some of Kylo's choices were nit so bad in the SW universe; third, that he is a metaphor fir young people getting lost in the uncertainty of the age; and fourth, in another interview where Tony Kushner was also interviewed said everything starts from the character and builds outward. Then of course Kasdan is just beside himself with giddiness for Kylo Ren, saying he's so unique.

People will say that they would never tackle mental illness even as a metaphor in SW, but in a way they already have. Kylo is erratic. Kylo talks to burned masks. The producers called and made Kylo's room a padded cell. Han looked at his son with pity and anguish, "like OMG, you look terrible, what has happened to you?" on that catwalk.

Earlier Han just wrote him off as another Vader, but when hears his son was abused and sees his tortured son's face, he knows he's not another Vader. Vader had plenty of mental issues but the played the evil card so much with him that it barely mattered. His story was straight up redemption. If Kylo is the same, what are they so giddy about his uniqueness for? He would just be a more disorganized Vader ... but if he the problem child of this galactic universe literally created by forces that he had poor control over due to childhood and this created a mental break in him that has to be repaired, then he would be different, and IMO that story would be much more groundbreaking and interesting than 2 movies spent in purgatory.

Just my personal musings ... but I would love it if they had the guts to do this. Nolan showed this kind of thing could be done in a tent pole movie and they sure as he** have the actor for it.
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by WhatGirl on 6/6/2016, 11:18 pm

@ladyconsular wrote:I always got the impression that Kylo Ren is not the grown man he should be mentally, but a misbehaving boy with too much power. He acts embarrassed and ashamed when Hux tells Snoke his focus on Rey lost them the droid. When he's trying to read her mind in the forest and the Trooper approaches, he backs away and acts as if he's caught doing a bad thing and after Rey bests him he runs to Snoke and points back at Rey as if telling on her to "dad" so seeing his father who is not backing down, come toward him, he was probably thinking he was about to be scolded for bad deeds.

I don't know why, I just have trouble seeing him as anything but a lost boy who is losing control of everything and has no one to truly guide him.
@ladyconsular

These are all great points. I hadn't thought before about how Ben hasn't really been without an authority figure of some sort telling him what to do. He's never been completely free to make his own choices, as far as I can tell.



Here he is spilling everything about Rey to Snoke. Kylo is literally looking way up at the huge hologram which, in turn, makes him seem so much smaller. This is such a different way of seeing Kylo, who normally towers over everybody else. But in front of Snoke, he looks small and vulnerable, all his emotions are right there on his face and in his voice.



Then Hux enters the scene without warning. Kylo turns around to look at him in surprise, then quickly pulls himself back together. It happens very fast, but he tries to wipe the vulnerable, boyish look off his face. Kylo clearly does not want Hux to see him in this state, unhinged with all of his fear and feelings out there in the open. That seems to be a side to him he shows only to a select few, such as father figure Snoke.



Hux proceeds to tell Snoke exactly what happened with the droid, and Kylo has absolutely nothing to say about this. He knows what he did and is embarrassed. Here he looks like a child caught in the act of something that he knew full well was "bad"/against his mission but did it anyway. He puts his personal interests ahead of the First Order and misuses his powers all while hoping he won't get caught or told on.

I would be very interested in seeing what sort of decisions Kylo makes on his own in the future, without Snoke or some other authority figure directly influencing him. I think we've only seen a few instances of him doing that. For example, it was entirely his choice to leave the droid and take the pretty girl he found in the forest. Also, it seemed to be all his idea to offer to be her teacher in the ways of the Force. Kylo just can't seem to help veering off his chosen path whenever a certain scavenger is involved, can he? Hmm...
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by Slade on 6/6/2016, 11:37 pm

@WhatGirl wrote:
@ladyconsular wrote:I always got the impression that Kylo Ren is not the grown man he should be mentally, but a misbehaving boy with too much power. He acts embarrassed and ashamed when Hux tells Snoke his focus on Rey lost them the droid. When he's trying to read her mind in the forest and the Trooper approaches, he backs away and acts as if he's caught doing a bad thing and after Rey bests him he runs to Snoke and points back at Rey as if telling on her to "dad" so seeing his father who is not backing down, come toward him, he was probably thinking he was about to be scolded for bad deeds.

I don't know why, I just have trouble seeing him as anything but a lost boy who is losing control of everything and has no one to truly guide him.
@ladyconsular

These are all great points. I hadn't thought before about how Ben hasn't really been without an authority figure of some sort telling him what to do. He's never been completely free to make his own choices, as far as I can tell.



Here he is spilling everything about Rey to Snoke. Kylo is literally looking way up at the huge hologram which, in turn, makes him seem so much smaller. This is such a different way of seeing Kylo, who normally towers over everybody else. But in front of Snoke, he looks small and vulnerable, all his emotions are right there on his face and in his voice.



Then Hux enters the scene without warning. Kylo turns around to look at him in surprise, then quickly pulls himself back together. It happens very fast, but he tries to wipe the vulnerable, boyish look off his face. Kylo clearly does not want Hux to see him in this state, unhinged with all of his fear and feelings out there in the open. That seems to be a side to him he shows only to a select few, such as father figure Snoke.



Hux proceeds to tell Snoke exactly what happened with the droid, and Kylo has absolutely nothing to say about this. He knows what he did and is embarrassed. Here he looks like a child caught in the act of something that he knew full well was "bad"/against his mission but did it anyway. He puts his personal interests ahead of the First Order and misuses his powers all while hoping he won't get caught or told on.

I would be very interested in seeing what sort of decisions Kylo makes on his own in the future, without Snoke or some other authority figure directly influencing him. I think we've only seen a few instances of him doing that. For example, it was entirely his choice to leave the droid and take the pretty girl he found in the forest. Also, it seemed to be all his idea to offer to be her teacher in the ways of the Force. Kylo just can't seem to help veering off his chosen path whenever a certain scavenger is involved, can he? Hmm...
@WhatGirl

First bolded part--yes, that's exactly how Kylo would look as a child looking up to a parent. Hux and Kylo for all the world act like squabbling, jealous siblings competing for Daddy's attention.
Second bolded part--You can actually see Kylo take a deep breath, exhale, and try to put his game face back on.
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by Slade on 6/6/2016, 11:50 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Slade wrote:That's exactly how he acts. Good observation with him pointing back when he tattles on Rey. I don't think he has ever been allowed to grow up; he has always had a father figure controlling and watching him, and he cant get away because Snoke seems to be able to get in his head.
@Slade

I agree. There is definitely a teenage aura to him at times, but then when he is full-on, almost bored "Put him on board" Kylo Ren he's like someone who was never a child at all ... except when the rage attacks break through ... which to me, in light of dissociative aspects of him that you were discussing earlier @slade, is possibly the outward manifestation of his duelling halves having a fight.

I believe that throughout TFA the more dormant Ben keeps breaking through, but maybe after being suppressed so long, Ben is just really shaky ... also Ben hates himself so he'd fight to put him back in his box. You know you actually could read the whole catwalk scene as Kylo/Ben literally being "torn apart, like the two sides warring in some weird way with Ben really getting the upper hand until Kylo the dark guardian rises up, like some kind of internal "extinction burst" and once again doea what he thinks Ben can't handle. The script says Kylo is shocked and horrified by what's he's done. Why? Why shocked? Shocked indicates surprise ... but hiw could he be surprised? He was right there. However, Adam Driver plays the kill moment very different than the seconds before. Before AD is hopeful.and watery-eyed ... then something goes blank, his emotions are muted until he looks iver the side and gets that gutted look on his face. I always took that as a kind Manchurian!Kylo or "The dark/Snoke just take over kind of moment." But what if it wasn't that? What if it was a disassociation? What if the extreme stress made Kylo step in?

A lot of people don't like those notions because Kylo won't have full agency and then his redemption story won't have the full kick of seeing him suffer and atone.

But what if it's not a full redemption story? What if it's a story of mental illness and bad influences in this age if total uncertainty and runaway young people falling into violence and following false leaders around the world. AD talks about how Ben had ni guidance. JJ said he was watched and pushed towards the dark. Kathleen Kennedy had an interview where first she said he was young, so that gave them a chance to use teenage experiences; second, she said that some of Kylo's choices were nit so bad in the SW universe; third, that he is a metaphor fir young people getting lost in the uncertainty of the age; and fourth, in another interview where Tony Kushner was also interviewed said everything starts from the character and builds outward. Then of course Kasdan is just beside himself with giddiness for Kylo Ren, saying he's so unique.

People will say that they would never tackle mental illness even as a metaphor in SW, but in a way they already have. Kylo is erratic. Kylo talks to burned masks. The producers called and made Kylo's room a padded cell. Han looked at his son with pity and anguish, "like OMG, you look terrible, what has happened to you?" on that catwalk.

Earlier Han just wrote him off as another Vader, but when hears his son was abused and sees his tortured son's face, he knows he's not another Vader. Vader had plenty of mental issues but the played the evil card so much with him that it barely mattered. His story was straight up redemption. If Kylo is the same, what are they so giddy about his uniqueness for? He would just be a more disorganized Vader ... but if he the problem child of this galactic universe literally created by forces that he had poor control over due to childhood and this created a mental break in him that has to be repaired, then he would be different, and IMO that story would be much more groundbreaking and interesting than 2 movies spent in purgatory.

Just my personal musings ... but I would love it if they had the guts to do this. Nolan showed this kind of thing could be done in a tent pole movie and they sure as he** have the actor for it.
@SoloSideCousin

Re "Ben hates himself"--completely agree. A lot of people have said this (or "kylo hates himself"), but for the life of me I cannot point to any one thing other than the self-injury that directly conveys this. So how are we coming to this conclusion (which I think is the correct conclusion)? How is Adam conveying that?

Second bolded part--It could be true. I'm also thinking "heat of passion" killings, where someone kills someone in a rage and then is horrified when they come down from that rage and realize what they did. However, "heat of passion" doesn't seem to fit this scenario.

Third bolded part--it could definitely be interpreted that way. There's a lot here to think about. Ok, and I think what I also see is Kylo trying his best just to survive emotionally when he has taken so many blows that could have destroyed him completely. Some of his pathology is him just trying to bloody cope (rage attacks, self harm, talking to vader's helmet), and that's part of what breaks my heart about him.

And his clothing...on the one hand, I think they just put Adam in black because Vader and evil. On the other hand, nothing in this movie is accidental, and seriously, you want to put people off and make them **step back** off of you? Scare them. Visually scare them. So yes, I do think he chooses to dress like that as a form of self-protection. BTW, is anyone else here a Person Who Wears Mostly Black? It really does have an interesting psychological component.
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by SoloSideCousin on 6/7/2016, 12:15 am

@WhatGirl wrote:
@ladyconsular wrote:I always got the impression that Kylo Ren is not the grown man he should be mentally, but a misbehaving boy with too much power. He acts embarrassed and ashamed when Hux tells Snoke his focus on Rey lost them the droid. When he's trying to read her mind in the forest and the Trooper approaches, he backs away and acts as if he's caught doing a bad thing and after Rey bests him he runs to Snoke and points back at Rey as if telling on her to "dad" so seeing his father who is not backing down, come toward him, he was probably thinking he was about to be scolded for bad deeds.

I don't know why, I just have trouble seeing him as anything but a lost boy who is losing control of everything and has no one to truly guide him.
@ladyconsular

These are all great points. I hadn't thought before about how Ben hasn't really been without an authority figure of some sort telling him what to do. He's never been completely free to make his own choices, as far as I can tell.



Here he is spilling everything about Rey to Snoke. Kylo is literally looking way up at the huge hologram which, in turn, makes him seem so much smaller. This is such a different way of seeing Kylo, who normally towers over everybody else. But in front of Snoke, he looks small and vulnerable, all his emotions are right there on his face and in his voice.



Then Hux enters the scene without warning. Kylo turns around to look at him in surprise, then quickly pulls himself back together. It happens very fast, but he tries to wipe the vulnerable, boyish look off his face. Kylo clearly does not want Hux to see him in this state, unhinged with all of his fear and feelings out there in the open. That seems to be a side to him he shows only to a select few, such as father figure Snoke.



Hux proceeds to tell Snoke exactly what happened with the droid, and Kylo has absolutely nothing to say about this. He knows what he did and is embarrassed. Here he looks like a child caught in the act of something that he knew full well was "bad"/against his mission but did it anyway. He puts his personal interests ahead of the First Order and misuses his powers all while hoping he won't get caught or told on.

I would be very interested in seeing what sort of decisions Kylo makes on his own in the future, without Snoke or some other authority figure directly influencing him. I think we've only seen a few instances of him doing that. For example, it was entirely his choice to leave the droid and take the pretty girl he found in the forest. Also, it seemed to be all his idea to offer to be her teacher in the ways of the Force. Kylo just can't seem to help veering off his chosen path whenever a certain scavenger is involved, can he? Hmm...
@WhatGirl

I agree with all of this. I would just add that in that last gif I think he is thinking about Rey. He gets a wistful look on his face where he seems to be "out of the moment" for a second and is just remembering her. This would have also been the same scene that they would have filmed the "You have compassion for her line." I can just imagine how Driver would have ripped people's hearts out with his response given what he did with the unmasked "Han Solo"/"He means nothing to me" scene.

First bolded part--yes, that's exactly how Kylo would look as a child looking up to a parent. Hux and Kylo for all the world act like squabbling, jealous siblings competing for Daddy's attention.
Second bolded part--You can actually see Kylo take a deep breath, exhale, and try to put his game face back on.

@Slade


We actually talked about the Hux/Kylo dynamic maybe a month ago ... and how it indicated how much of a sick perv Snoke (as if we needed more evidence) was to have these two beautiful young men at each other's throats in front of him.
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by ladyconsular on 6/7/2016, 5:50 am

@WhatGirl wrote:
@ladyconsular wrote:I always got the impression that Kylo Ren is not the grown man he should be mentally, but a misbehaving boy with too much power. He acts embarrassed and ashamed when Hux tells Snoke his focus on Rey lost them the droid. When he's trying to read her mind in the forest and the Trooper approaches, he backs away and acts as if he's caught doing a bad thing and after Rey bests him he runs to Snoke and points back at Rey as if telling on her to "dad" so seeing his father who is not backing down, come toward him, he was probably thinking he was about to be scolded for bad deeds.

I don't know why, I just have trouble seeing him as anything but a lost boy who is losing control of everything and has no one to truly guide him.
@ladyconsular

These are all great points. I hadn't thought before about how Ben hasn't really been without an authority figure of some sort telling him what to do. He's never been completely free to make his own choices, as far as I can tell.



Here he is spilling everything about Rey to Snoke. Kylo is literally looking way up at the huge hologram which, in turn, makes him seem so much smaller. This is such a different way of seeing Kylo, who normally towers over everybody else. But in front of Snoke, he looks small and vulnerable, all his emotions are right there on his face and in his voice.



Then Hux enters the scene without warning. Kylo turns around to look at him in surprise, then quickly pulls himself back together. It happens very fast, but he tries to wipe the vulnerable, boyish look off his face. Kylo clearly does not want Hux to see him in this state, unhinged with all of his fear and feelings out there in the open. That seems to be a side to him he shows only to a select few, such as father figure Snoke.



Hux proceeds to tell Snoke exactly what happened with the droid, and Kylo has absolutely nothing to say about this. He knows what he did and is embarrassed. Here he looks like a child caught in the act of something that he knew full well was "bad"/against his mission but did it anyway. He puts his personal interests ahead of the First Order and misuses his powers all while hoping he won't get caught or told on.

I would be very interested in seeing what sort of decisions Kylo makes on his own in the future, without Snoke or some other authority figure directly influencing him. I think we've only seen a few instances of him doing that. For example, it was entirely his choice to leave the droid and take the pretty girl he found in the forest. Also, it seemed to be all his idea to offer to be her teacher in the ways of the Force. Kylo just can't seem to help veering off his chosen path whenever a certain scavenger is involved, can he? Hmm...
@WhatGirl

Yes that scene was always key to me because here we are seeing Ben Solo with a bit of Kylo Ren. Based on how he reacts to Snoke you can tell he sees him as a great authority figure and possibly only father figure he ever truly had. When Hux comes storming in, it's like two brothers are fighting over their father's approval and Kylo is being told on by the jealous sibling.

It seems that when he does make his own decisions, he's not thinking with his mind but his heart. Personally seeing to Rey, giving up the droid and thinking he can get the info from Rey if allowed to spend time with her (again it's like he's asking his father for permission to hang out with the girl he just met lol) and of course, almost not killing Han because he was so close to running away. Sometimes I wonder if he was pushed by an outside force in his mind to make him go through with killing him, or being the lost boy he is, he made another bad choice because he wasn't thinking. I noticed that when he does finally decide to kill Han, it's after the Sun has gone out. Maybe his "it's too late" is because he thought Leia was already dead so what was left for him? He probaly thought if TFO killed Leia, chances were Han would not let him live, so he gave up.

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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by Slade on 6/7/2016, 10:49 am

Yes, that is possible. Also, @SoloSideCousin said upthread that at times Kylo acted like he had never been a child, and we have discussed how immature he seems much of the time. I think both of these traits are symptoms of trauma and can both exist in the same person. I have read some abnormal psych stuff that said trauma survivors can "freeze" emotionally at the age they were when the trauma occurred, leading to behavior very out of line with physiological age.
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by ladyconsular on 6/7/2016, 11:02 am

@Slade wrote:Yes, that is possible. Also, @SoloSideCousin said upthread that at times Kylo acted like he had never been a child, and we have discussed how immature he seems much of the time. I think both of these traits are symptoms of trauma and can both exist in the same person. I have read some abnormal psych stuff that said trauma survivors can "freeze" emotionally at the age they were when the trauma occurred, leading to behavior very out of line with physiological age.
@Slade

It happened to me. Probably why I like this character a lot. I went through some pretty heavy stuff at a young age and even at 32 it's still a struggle to not be that 16 year old who saw things that she couldn't handle.

I too agree about the age and his possible mental disorder. It makes him a flawed human and not a mustache twirling villain like so many think him to be.

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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by Slade on 6/7/2016, 11:34 am

@ladyconsular wrote:
@Slade wrote:Yes, that is possible. Also, @SoloSideCousin said upthread that at times Kylo acted like he had never been a child, and we have discussed how immature he seems much of the time. I think both of these traits are symptoms of trauma and can both exist in the same person. I have read some abnormal psych stuff that said trauma survivors can "freeze" emotionally at the age they were when the trauma occurred, leading to behavior very out of line with physiological age.
@Slade

It happened to me. Probably why I like this character a lot. I went through some pretty heavy stuff at a young age and even at 32 it's still a struggle to not be that 16 year old who saw things that she couldn't handle.

I too agree about the age and his possible mental disorder. It makes him a flawed human and not a mustache twirling villain like so many think him to be.
@ladyconsular

Yes, I identify with him very strongly for similar reasons.
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by SanghaRen on 6/7/2016, 4:00 pm

My jaw dropped seeing the last posts. I had never thought about the emotional freeze at the age when a trauma occurred - or something you register as a trauma. Taking this into consideration, it does explain some of the reactions I have. Food for thought...

Sometimes I wonder if LF realizes the impact the character had on some people. Saying that you like Kylo Ren has become a statement on its own.

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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by Slade on 6/7/2016, 6:38 pm

In time, they will. What we are also seeing is the power of myth in action, the power of archetypes, the power of stories to respell our world (yes, TFA is reweaving our world just a little as we watch). Some stories **matter**, they are mythic, they explore what it is to be human, mortal, afraid, alone, and sometimes heroic.
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by Slade on 6/7/2016, 6:41 pm

@SanghaRen wrote:My jaw dropped seeing the last posts. I had never thought about the emotional freeze at the age when a trauma occurred - or something you register as a trauma. Taking this into consideration, it does explain some of the reactions I have. Food for thought...

Sometimes I wonder if LF realizes the impact the character had on some people. Saying that you like Kylo Ren has become a statement on its own.

#IamKyloRen
@SanghaRen

I think your head canon re Kylo going into the underworld is spot on.
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by ladyconsular on 6/7/2016, 7:20 pm

@Slade wrote:
@SanghaRen wrote:My jaw dropped seeing the last posts. I had never thought about the emotional freeze at the age when a trauma occurred - or something you register as a trauma. Taking this into consideration, it does explain some of the reactions I have. Food for thought...

Sometimes I wonder if LF realizes the impact the character had on some people. Saying that you like Kylo Ren has become a statement on its own.

#IamKyloRen
@SanghaRen

I think your head canon re Kylo going into the underworld is spot on.
@Slade

I like it too and Adam himself is not only a Scorpio in Western, but Eastern zodiac too, so he's just perfect for this role! It's also why he wears a lot of black and has penetrating eyes.

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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by Slade on 6/8/2016, 10:08 am

I wonder why snoke projects himself as 25 feet high. Did he choose to appear that way or is that just how Space Skype works?
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by motherofpearl1 on 7/9/2016, 5:51 am

@Slade wrote:These few seconds just *got* me. The look on Kylo's face is so wary; he looks like a cornered animal. In no way do I think Han ever abused Kylo, but I think he's acting like an abuse survivor might act.

Wheels within wheels, this movie is...
@Slade

Yes, that's exactly what I thought...he acted as if he thought he'd hit him.

No way can i see Han doing that (Leia would have killed him for one) but it makes you wonder just exactly what has been happening to Kylo those last few years?
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Re: Why did Kylo step back?

Post by motherofpearl1 on 7/9/2016, 5:59 am

@Slade wrote:I wonder why snoke projects himself as 25 feet high. Did he choose to appear that way or is that just how Space Skype works?
@Slade
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