Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

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Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by Slade on Sat 25 Jun - 2:23

Has anyone seen any meta about this? I have seen it mentioned but not developed. We have talked about Hades and Persephone, but what about journeying to the underworld in general? What about reading Kylo as a type of dark witch (not a literal witch, just similar to)?

5 min later:  yes, the corpse shore is called Nastrond (my keyboard won't let me make the diacritical marks).


Last edited by Slade on Mon 27 Jun - 11:43; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by snufkin on Sat 25 Jun - 4:15

Not seen anything written, but just from having spent time in various Latin American countries, there are gender fluid saints of the underworld. They're tied to folk religions that syncretize Catholicism with either indigenous or African religions

Santa Muerte (literally Saint Death) - typically found in Mexico and the SW United States


MICTECACIHUATL "Lady of the Land of the Dead" another spelling may be MICTLANTECIHUATL, she was believed to be a protector of souls residing in the dark underworld. Mistress to MICTLANTECAHTLI Lord of Mictlan Land of the dead Lord of Darkness

Babalú-Ayé (Cuban Santeria) / Obaluayê or Omolu (Brazilian Candomble)


Wickedness and Righteousness: Represented in sacred narratives as a transgressor in some instances, Babalú-Ayé himself is condemned to exile because he breaks the social contract. The physical pain of his lame leg transforms into the emotional pain of exile. Only after spending much time in isolation does he return to society. In other contexts, he is lauded as the most righteous of all the orishas. Similarly he is often referred to as punishing the offense of human beings.
Exile and Movement: Strongly associated with the forest and the road itself, the key stories and ceremonies related to Babalú-Ayé involve movement as an antidote to stagnation. In Lucumí and Arará ceremonies in Cuba, his vessel is ritually moved from place to place in important initiations. But through this movement through different spaces, Babalú-Ayé regularly appears as a complex, even liminal, figure who unites various realms. Strongly associated with powerful herbs used for poisons and panaceas, he is sometimes associated with Osain and the powerful acts of magicians. Strongly associated with the Earth and the ancestors buried within it, he is sometimes ritually honored with the dead. At the same time, he is widely included as an orisha or a fodun, as the Arará traditionally call their deities in Cuba.Similarly the dogs strongly associated with Babalú-Ayé move from the house, to the street, to the forest, and back with relative facility.
Death and Resurrection: Last but not least, Babalú-Ayé's own journey of exile, debilitation, and finally restoration addresses the cyclic nature of all life. While this theme of transcendence plays a much more prominent role in the Americas than in West Africa, it is also present there in narratives about epidemics befalling kings and kingdoms, only to find relief and remedy in Babalú-Ayé.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 25 Jun - 5:02

Slade wrote:Has anyone seen any meta about this? I have seen it mentioned but not developed. We have talked about Hades and Persephone, but what about journeying to the underworld in general? What about reading Kylo as a type of dark witch (not a literal witch, just similar to)?
@Slade

@Sylvia Snow and @panki know a lot about Eastern mythologies. They might know of stories comparable to Hades and Persephone.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by Slade on Sat 25 Jun - 6:46

Well, Hecate comes to mind too.  I"m just thinking off the top of my head here:  what does it mean to dwell in the Underworld?  What does it mean for someone to journey there?  And return from there?  Are they changed?  Do they bring knowledge back with them?  Could Kylo be said to dwell in the underworld?  (his black garb, the ashes, him arguably being coded as a left-hand-path magic user aka dark side Force user, his abduction of Rey).
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by Slade on Sat 25 Jun - 6:49

snufkin wrote:Not seen anything written, but just from having spent time in various Latin American countries, there are gender fluid saints of the underworld. They're tied to folk religions that syncretize Catholicism with either indigenous or African religions

Santa Muerte (literally Saint Death) - typically found in Mexico and the SW United States


MICTECACIHUATL "Lady of the Land of the Dead" another spelling may be MICTLANTECIHUATL, she was believed to be a protector of souls residing in the dark underworld. Mistress to MICTLANTECAHTLI Lord of Mictlan Land of the dead Lord of Darkness

Babalú-Ayé (Cuban Santeria) / Obaluayê or Omolu (Brazilian Candomble)


Wickedness and Righteousness: Represented in sacred narratives as a transgressor in some instances, Babalú-Ayé himself is condemned to exile because he breaks the social contract. The physical pain of his lame leg transforms into the emotional pain of exile. Only after spending much time in isolation does he return to society. In other contexts, he is lauded as the most righteous of all the orishas. Similarly he is often referred to as punishing the offense of human beings.
Exile and Movement: Strongly associated with the forest and the road itself, the key stories and ceremonies related to Babalú-Ayé involve movement as an antidote to stagnation. In Lucumí and Arará ceremonies in Cuba, his vessel is ritually moved from place to place in important initiations. But through this movement through different spaces, Babalú-Ayé regularly appears as a complex, even liminal, figure who unites various realms. Strongly associated with powerful herbs used for poisons and panaceas, he is sometimes associated with Osain and the powerful acts of magicians. Strongly associated with the Earth and the ancestors buried within it, he is sometimes ritually honored with the dead. At the same time, he is widely included as an orisha or a fodun, as the Arará traditionally call their deities in Cuba.Similarly the dogs strongly associated with Babalú-Ayé move from the house, to the street, to the forest, and back with relative facility.
Death and Resurrection: Last but not least, Babalú-Ayé's own journey of exile, debilitation, and finally restoration addresses the cyclic nature of all life. While this theme of transcendence plays a much more prominent role in the Americas than in West Africa, it is also present there in narratives about epidemics befalling kings and kingdoms, only to find relief and remedy in Babalú-Ayé.
@snufkin

Re bolded:  this also sounds like Manman Brigitte in the Haitian and New Orleans vodoun tradition.  And the Guede.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by snufkin on Sat 25 Jun - 7:25

@slade, I totally spaced on how you're in NOLA. So yes, all draw on Vodun/Obeah original beliefs and mythologies brought over from West Africa. Just slightly different flavors based on which European colonizer the tradition interacted with, though all were Catholic. I've read that the costume and persona are supposed to be like Vader, inspired by Samurai armor. But my first impression was always more that it looked like Santa Muerte, especially because that's the prevailing figure you see around these parts for botanica shops.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by Sylvia Snow on Sun 26 Jun - 10:13

So the Balck Tortoise or Genbu in Japanese, is one of the Four Scared Beasts that corresponds with Black, North, Cold, Winter, Water, Earth and Faith ( sometimes even Heaven, as some believe that the Tortoise carry Heaven on its back). The tortoise with the snake as its tail is thought to have engendered the whole universe and also ties in with the image of Black Warrior, that are related to a legend about Xuan Wu, King of the North who wanting to studies about enlightenment and hope to achieve divine status, but he learn that in order to achieve full divinity he must get rid of all his flesh. As he did, he tossed his stomach and intestines into a river in which causing the water to turn black due to all his sins are being dissolved and from that water, emerge "Snake General" and "Tortoise General" who quickly become fearsome monsters until Xuan Wu, now a god, come back after hearing about the news and tamed the beasts. They later becomes his trusted generals. This legend can also be seen as a story about redemption and depending of one sins and for reasons, I found it resembles Kylo very much, the "Black Warrior", the cold winter forest on SKB, from a Beast to a Man.

Also the legend of Four Gods are also a part of Yin Yang, where each God represent a corner of the world and balance. While Kylo and Rey can be with in the roles of the Dragon and Phoenix but as I take a closer look I must said Kylo is also the Black Tortoise and Rey is also the White Tiger. North and South.Kylo and Rey fit together in a perfect way, because if we assume he is the Dragon and Black Tortoise then she will be the Phoenix and White Tiger. Dragon and Phoenix, the bliss union also enemies, Black and White, Dragon and Tiger, equally powerful beasts
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by guardienne on Sun 26 Jun - 12:38

there are two journeys into the underworld (that i can think of off the top of my head).

one is aragorn collecting the zombie army (although that is when his legitimacy as a king is being asserted right?) and the other occurs in his dark materials. i think the children collect souls from limbo or whatever passes for limbo in that book.

Lyra, Will, Tialys and Salmakia travel to the world of the dead to fulfil Lyra's promise to Roger. They are forced to leave their dæmons behind, causing them enormous pain. After they find Roger, they strike a deal with the harpies: in exchange for allowing them to open a window so the dead escape, the harpies will hear the stories of the dead, and may bar access to those who have not lived full lives. The dead step through and dissolve, reuinited with the universe.

i do wonder if the releasing of the souls is something that can be equivalent to releasing the stormtroopers.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by guardienne on Mon 27 Jun - 10:48

norse mythology underworld stuff

the harrowing of hell which also includes the release of the souls (apart from the damned, who woulda thunk) - so does kylo journey into the underworld to release souls?

i think snoke is the lord of the underworld, kylo only journeys through it, hence all the pain.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by Slade on Mon 27 Jun - 11:32

@guardienne

Yes, Norse mythology is interesting, especially how they have the universe divided up (Midgard, the underworld, and I think a place called the corpse shore).  Hmmm...maybe Rey is going to descend into the underworld to yank Kylo out of it?  I like how that website you provided a link for explains stuff...
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by guardienne on Mon 27 Jun - 11:48

well, rey going down would be an inversion of orpheus? is it orpheus? isn't there another dude who retrieves his beloved from the underworld? it's usually the dudes.

if you go with hades/persephone, she is to stay, but rey keeps leaving him, so it doesn't quite work.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by guardienne on Mon 4 Jul - 14:02

here's some writing about dark witches and paganism and the underworld ...

Kylo Ren and Ancestor Worship

something about witches and gender coding and villains.



Everything with substance casts a shadow.

It’s embracing all knowledge, and changing accordingly. It’s refusing to carve off pieces of yourself just because other people tell you they’re bad. It’s keeping your own council. It’s trusting your own judgment. It’s solidarity and self-respect. And all of these things help you grab onto life in the worst of circumstances. These qualities shine like steel and stubbornness when you’re suffering. But the dark side is not about suffering. It’s about being proud and ambitious and fully yourself and fully alive.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by Slade on Mon 4 Jul - 19:48

guardienne wrote:here's some writing about dark witches and paganism and the underworld ...

Kylo Ren and Ancestor Worship

something about witches and gender coding and villains.



Everything with substance casts a shadow.

It’s embracing all knowledge, and changing accordingly. It’s refusing to carve off pieces of yourself just because other people tell you they’re bad. It’s keeping your own council. It’s trusting your own judgment. It’s solidarity and self-respect. And all of these things help you grab onto life in the worst of circumstances. These qualities shine like steel and stubbornness when you’re suffering. But the dark side is not about suffering. It’s about being proud and ambitious and fully yourself and fully alive.
@guardienne

Oh yesses, I read that post about the dark side yesterday and can't agree more!
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by guardienne on Mon 4 Jul - 20:37

@slade oh i didn't know whether you'd seen those things. it's so interesting because they are talking so much about gender as well. and it makes me lose hope in the characterisation because i think it'S true that he'll have to 'become a man' ... and that would really annoy me.

well, depending on how it's done i suppose.

but it's bothersome to think that he might have to become a macho creature just to please the audience. and whihc part of the audience anyway.


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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by guardienne on Tue 5 Jul - 19:14

an essay on the liminality of the ashitaka character in princess mononoke: https://www.unomaha.edu/jrf/Vol8No1/BetweenWorlds.htm

i'm sort of overlaying kylo and ashitaka a lot *sigh* it doesn't quite work but it does in my head (trust me) and i think comparing them is an interesting exercise.

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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by snufkin on Tue 5 Jul - 19:23

@guardienne - DR has dropped multiple references to Studio Ghibli movies and being an uber fan (besides voicing one of the English language dubs). And having Rey ultimately be like a Miyazaki heroine makes for a way more interesting direction than any of the "Dark Rey" scenarios out there.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by guardienne on Tue 5 Jul - 19:27

@snufkin i'm assuming DR = Darth Revan XD

i think rey is pretty savage in contrast to kylo and i remember thinking, omigod, ashitaka falls for this girl like in an instant! (the pic is supposed to be a gif of her stabbing him)

anyway, i have unreserved love for ashitaka. he was my first anime crush.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by guardienne on Tue 5 Jul - 19:33

ohhhhh daisy ridley!!!!!! probably Razz
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by Slade on Tue 5 Jul - 19:36

guardienne wrote:@slade oh i didn't know whether you'd seen those things. it's so interesting because they are talking so much about gender as well. and it makes me lose hope in the characterisation because i think it'S true that he'll have to 'become a man' ... and that would really annoy me.

well, depending on how it's done i suppose.

but it's bothersome to think that he might have to become a macho creature just to please the audience. and whihc part of the audience anyway.


@guardienne

I don't think they will do that with Kylo. I just have a gut feeling.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by snufkin on Tue 5 Jul - 19:41

@guardienne - yep, she's mentioned Studio Ghibli in a couple of interviews and sounds like a huge fan. And I've seen a couple of articles speculating comparing them to Ashitaka and San and Howl and Sophie. And her introduction is straight up a reference to Nausicaa.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by guardienne on Tue 5 Jul - 19:51

@snufkin the nausicaa thing i spotted rightaway *pats self on the back*

@slade i hope you are right. i think we should really start that prayer group some time Wink
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by guardienne on Thu 14 Jul - 16:51

lord shiva and kylo

someone found this for me today. it's pretty old and was even written before ashgate. har.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by Slade on Thu 14 Jul - 18:06

guardienne wrote:lord shiva and kylo

someone found this for me today. it's pretty old and was even written before ashgate. har.
@guardienne

Good find! That is extremely interesting! I think some of it is stretching a bit, but most isn't, given what TPTB have said about their influences.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 14 Jul - 18:22

guardienne wrote:lord shiva and kylo

someone found this for me today. it's pretty old and was even written before ashgate. har.
@guardienne

Wow! That is really interesting. I really wonder how much influence they took from Hindu tradition because Rey really does seem pretty Parvati/Kali-ish too. I think @meadowofashes once pointed out that it was only when Kylo was on the ground ... literally laying before Rey ... that her "Darth Maul" state starts to calm down.
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Re: Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

Post by guardienne on Thu 14 Jul - 18:31

i remember @panki discussing hindu gods wrt kylo and rey. i can't remember all the stuff.

but i loved that even before ashgate people were coming up with ashes-related meta.
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