Kiss of F8TE

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Total Votes : 117

Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by snufkin on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 11:14

@LadyHa,

Also that Gish photo automatically makes me think of her later classic with Robert Mitchum, Night of the Hunter (still blows my mind that James "Let Us Now Praise Famous Men" Agee wrote the screenplay)



OT - but rewatching all of the movies, this kisses are mostly ok but totally closed mouth. I mean, sure there are children as part of the intended audience. But even Han "Scoundrel" Solo, didn't try and slip a little tongue that first time in the Empire Strikes Back after all his staring/"I could teach you to be a woman" lines to Leia?!


Last edited by snufkin on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 16:51; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by Armadeus on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 11:23

@snufkin wrote:@LadyHa,

Also that Gish photo automatically makes me think of her later classic with Robert Mitchum, Night of the Hunter (still blows my mind that James "Let Us Now Praise Famous Men" Agee wrote the screenplay)
@snufkin

Man, I LOVE Night of the Hunter.

'Shall I tell you the tale of Good and Evil?'

I also love how Cooper just isn't having any of Powell's sith when he starts sobbing over how he missed those kids Very Happy
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by snufkin on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 11:33

@Armadeus wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@LadyHa,

Also that Gish photo automatically makes me think of her later classic with Robert Mitchum, Night of the Hunter (still blows my mind that James "Let Us Now Praise Famous Men" Agee wrote the screenplay)
@snufkin

Man, I LOVE Night of the Hunter.

'Shall I tell you the tale of Good and Evil?'

I also love how Cooper just isn't having any of Powell's sith when he starts sobbing over how he missed those kids Very Happy

@Armadeus

I've been known to get too excited in a conversation and quote "Hot dog, love's a winning! Yessirree! It's love that's won, and old left hand hate is down for the count!" only to get the blank stare Neutral:



I haven't watched the Simpsons in a long time, but it always cracked me up how they made sure to put in references to Mitchum's role in Night of the Hunter and Cape Fear every time Sideshow Bob turns up to menace Bart
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by Armadeus on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 11:41

@snufkin wrote:
@Armadeus wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@LadyHa,

Also that Gish photo automatically makes me think of her later classic with Robert Mitchum, Night of the Hunter (still blows my mind that James "Let Us Now Praise Famous Men" Agee wrote the screenplay)
@snufkin

Man, I LOVE Night of the Hunter.

'Shall I tell you the tale of Good and Evil?'

I also love how Cooper just isn't having any of Powell's sith when he starts sobbing over how he missed those kids Very Happy

@Armadeus

I've been known to get too excited in a conversation and quote "Hot dog, love's a winning! Yessirree! It's love that's won, and old left hand hate is down for the count!" only to get the blank stare  Neutral:



I haven't watched the Simpsons in a long time, but it always cracked me up how they made sure to put in references to Mitchum's role in Night of the Hunter and Cape Fear every time Sideshow Bob turns up to menace Bart
@snufkin

Love and Hate. Don't know why I had Good and Evil in my head Razz

My favourite quote from Hunter is: 'I can feel myself gettin' awful mad.' Delivered in a completely neutral tone. It's both creepy AND funny.
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by snufkin on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 11:49

@Armadeus wrote:
@snufkin

Love and Hate. I always think Good and Evil when Powell's tattoos come to mind *facepalm*

It's getting embarrassing Razz

My favourite quote from Hunter is: 'I can feel myself gettin' awful mad.' Delivered in a completely neutral tone. It's both creepy AND funny.
@Armadeus

Everything about his performance in that movie is creepy and funny, it's one of his best! Ha, so maybe those people who complain about "it's creepy and abusive" should see this movie, poor Shelly Winters. Also there's a great battle of wits/wills between him and Lillian Gish.

Bonus, OMG I missed Chris Isaak 2 weeks ago doing guest programming on Turner Classic Movies. Night of the Hunter, Touch of Evil, and A Face in the Crowd were among his picks. So sorry that I missed this, he's pretty hilarious himself and was great in his roles for Jonathan Demme (another favorite director of mine).

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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by snufkin on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 12:13

Once again, seriously no tongue after Han basically straight up propositions Leia?! Sure the kids won't clue into what he means exactly other than kissing, no mistaking it re-watching as an adult.
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by LadyHa on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 12:13

Have you ever read the Nitrate Diva (Blog, also on twitter @NitrateDiva). Lotsa great stuff about the women of the Silent and pre-post Hayes Code era, like Gish and another bad***, Mary Pickford (I have her bio, just haven't read it yet).

@snufkin

Great blog recommendation with lots of films I haven't seen on it.  And it links to this fascinating project: https://wfpp.cdrs.columbia.edu/.

---
On the topic of ambiguous and coded sexuality in films, I wanted to share an interesting quote I found on that article I mentioned that discusses The Wind. The following quote actually is about Richard Maltby's analysis of a kiss scene in Casablanca.  


"Viewers interpret what happens in this scene in at least two mutually con-
flicting  ways.  Half  the  audience  insists  that  the  scene  must  be  understood  
to  be  suggesting  that  Bogart  and  Bergman  had  slept  together.  The  other  
half deny it with as much vehemence." The viewer constructs one of these
conflicting  hypotheses,  Maltby  explains,  by  disregarding  certain  interpreta-
tive  cues  that  point  towards  the  other.  Maltby's  overarching  point  is  that  
classical Hollywood cinema does not address or construct a model specta-
tor,  but  rather  two  different  viewers:  an  innocent  viewer,  who  knows  that  
certain  things  do  not  happen  in  Hollywood,  and  a  sophisticated  one,  who  
constructs a parallel imagined version not bound by moral regulations.
For
our  purposes,  we  can  explain  these  divergent  readings  as  a  result  of  the  
viewer's natural desire to bridge the gap between narrative discourse (em-
pirical  presentation  of  events)  and  story  (metaphysical  truth).

I'd argue that the same idea applies to TFA.
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by snufkin on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 12:18

@LadyHa wrote:
On the topic of ambiguous and coded sexuality in films, I wanted to share an interesting quote I found on that article I mentioned that discusses The Wind. The following quote actually is about Richard Maltby's analysis of a kiss scene in Casablanca.  


"Viewers interpret what happens in this scene in at least two mutually con-
flicting  ways.  Half  the  audience  insists  that  the  scene  must  be  understood  
to  be  suggesting  that  Bogart  and  Bergman  had  slept  together.  The  other  
half deny it with as much vehemence." The viewer constructs one of these
conflicting  hypotheses,  Maltby  explains,  by  disregarding  certain  interpreta-
tive  cues  that  point  towards  the  other.  Maltby's  overarching  point  is  that  
classical Hollywood cinema does not address or construct a model specta-
tor,  but  rather  two  different  viewers:  an  innocent  viewer,  who  knows  that  
certain  things  do  not  happen  in  Hollywood,  and  a  sophisticated  one,  who  
constructs a parallel imagined version not bound by moral regulations.
For
our  purposes,  we  can  explain  these  divergent  readings  as  a  result  of  the  
viewer's natural desire to bridge the gap between narrative discourse (em-
pirical  presentation  of  events)  and  story  (metaphysical  truth).

I'd argue that the same idea applies to TFA.
@LadyHa

Most definitely in all of their scenes

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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by Maria Antonietta on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 12:30

@snufkin wrote:
@LadyHa wrote:
On the topic of ambiguous and coded sexuality in films, I wanted to share an interesting quote I found on that article I mentioned that discusses The Wind. The following quote actually is about Richard Maltby's analysis of a kiss scene in Casablanca.  


"Viewers interpret what happens in this scene in at least two mutually con-
flicting  ways.  Half  the  audience  insists  that  the  scene  must  be  understood  
to  be  suggesting  that  Bogart  and  Bergman  had  slept  together.  The  other  
half deny it with as much vehemence." The viewer constructs one of these
conflicting  hypotheses,  Maltby  explains,  by  disregarding  certain  interpreta-
tive  cues  that  point  towards  the  other.  Maltby's  overarching  point  is  that  
classical Hollywood cinema does not address or construct a model specta-
tor,  but  rather  two  different  viewers:  an  innocent  viewer,  who  knows  that  
certain  things  do  not  happen  in  Hollywood,  and  a  sophisticated  one,  who  
constructs a parallel imagined version not bound by moral regulations.
For
our  purposes,  we  can  explain  these  divergent  readings  as  a  result  of  the  
viewer's natural desire to bridge the gap between narrative discourse (em-
pirical  presentation  of  events)  and  story  (metaphysical  truth).

I'd argue that the same idea applies to TFA.
@LadyHa

Most definitely in all of their scenes

@snufkin

AHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHAHA
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 12:35

@snufkin wrote:Once again, seriously no tongue after Han basically straight up propositions Leia?! Sure the kids won't clue into what he means exactly other than kissing, no mistaking it re-watching as an adult.
@snufkin

The lack of tongue in the Han-Leia kisses has always been hilarious to me as an adult. (As a kid, nothing registered with me beyond the fact that they were kissing.) Once you're over the age of 13, don't most "first kisses" between two people include tongue??? Especially when there's a dynamic as intense as Han and Leia's???

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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by snufkin on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 12:46

@Maria Antonietta - it's funny because it's true. That's essentially his whole "courtship" of her.

@ISeeAnIsland - Is there anything in the MPAA code about open versus closed mouth? True you don't want a family movie to involve too much tongue. But yeah, the lack of tongue when he finally does get to make a move on her is pretty jarring. Besides building up to it with their crazy UST, he's told her that he's DTF.
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 13:01

@snufkin wrote:@Maria Antonietta - it's funny because it's true. That's essentially his whole "courtship" of her.

@ISeeAnIsland - Is there anything in the MPAA code about open versus closed mouth? True you don't want a family movie to involve too much tongue. But yeah, the lack of tongue when he finally does get to make a move on her is pretty jarring. Besides building up to it with their crazy UST, he's told her that he's DTF.
@snufkin

Right?

If there are any Kylo-Rey scenes that end up getting cut because of questionable family-friendly content, I really really hope they include them as extras on the Blu-Ray release.

As far as MPAA guidelines go, if they're shooting for a PG-13, I can't imagine that tongue would be an issue. Geez, I remember way way back around the time that ROTJ was released, being shocked at seeing a brief bare boobs shot in Sixteen Candles, which was a PG movie (back before the Temple of Doom-fueled PG-13 designation). Would boobs have been considered more risque than a kiss with tongue?

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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by snufkin on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 13:15

@ISeeAnIsland - Disney will milk a product line for all it's worth. Though not being a fan of Disney, I have no idea if any of their movies feature tongue. Personally I'd say if it's PG-13, they're within boundaries. And again with ESB, pretty ridiculous to not have it after building up that much of an expectation. Ha, also pretty clear way to finally disabuse anybody who thinks that she's Luke's kid of that not going to happen.



Yeah the whole "no tongue, but we'll put you in a metal bikini" part is pretty confusing. Or at least more meant just for a certain demographic.

EDITED: For @armadeus and anybody else intrigued by the Night of the Hunter Talk:

Chris Isaak's introduction to it for Turner Classic Movies and appreciation for Robert Mitchum's talents as a dark leading man. Describes the movie as "A dark fairy tale" (sound familiar?).

Full movie on YouTube courtesy of UCLA Film Archives

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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by Armadeus on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 18:46

@snufkin wrote:@ISeeAnIsland - Disney will milk a product line for all it's worth. Though not being a fan of Disney, I have no idea if any of their movies feature tongue. Personally I'd say if it's PG-13, they're within boundaries. And again with ESB, pretty ridiculous to not have it after building up that much of an expectation. Ha, also pretty clear way to finally disabuse anybody who thinks that she's Luke's kid of that not going to happen.



Yeah the whole "no tongue, but we'll put you in a metal bikini" part is pretty confusing. Or at least more meant just for a certain demographic.

EDITED: For @armadeus and anybody else intrigued by the Night of the Hunter Talk:

Chris Isaak's introduction to it for Turner Classic Movies and appreciation for Robert Mitchum's talents as a dark leading man. Describes the movie as "A dark fairy tale" (sound familiar?).

Full movie on YouTube courtesy of UCLA Film Archives

@snufkin

Last OT post, but for @snufkin and other classic film lovers: Olivia de Havilland celebrates her 100th birthday today Shocked
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by Search Your Feelings on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 22:14

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@Maria Antonietta - it's funny because it's true. That's essentially his whole "courtship" of her.

@ISeeAnIsland - Is there anything in the MPAA code about open versus closed mouth? True you don't want a family movie to involve too much tongue. But yeah, the lack of tongue when he finally does get to make a move on her is pretty jarring. Besides building up to it with their crazy UST, he's told her that he's DTF.
@snufkin

Right?

If there are any Kylo-Rey scenes that end up getting cut because of questionable family-friendly content, I really really hope they include them as extras on the Blu-Ray release.

As far as MPAA guidelines go, if they're shooting for a PG-13, I can't imagine that tongue would be an issue. Geez, I remember way way back around the time that ROTJ was released, being shocked at seeing a brief bare boobs shot in Sixteen Candles, which was a PG movie (back before the Temple of Doom-fueled PG-13 designation). Would boobs have been considered more risque than a kiss with tongue?
@ISeeAnIsland

Well, they cut this out from TFA (or is this a manip) Laughing

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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by Slade on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 22:23

I think it's manipulated.
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by IoJovi on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 22:29

Second that. I'm pretty positive that's a manip.

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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by Lily Snape on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 23:29

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@AppleCrumble122 wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:High likelihood of real kiss between Rey and Kylo. Could be in the heat of things or regretted. I would also settle for almost kiss or "I have feelings for you", something that clearly spells out the sexual tension. No more ambiguity.
@MeadowofAshes

I don't think there'll be ambiguity. The whole point of TFA playing it subtle and everyone keeping quiet about Rey/Kylo is IMO about dropping an unexpected twist on the audience, which by its nature can't really be subtle.

I do hope they clear up the question of Rey's parents in Episode VIII; I just know that even if she and Kylo kiss there will still be a large part of the audience convinced that they just saw cousins kiss in a Disney movie.

@Saracene I agree and considering that whole Luke/Leia mess, just having them kiss won't be enough to convince them. Even though TFA itself debunks Luke from having children with Leia's line to Han "Luke is a Jedi, you're his father." I think it needs to be said out straight. This is speculation, but I can see three possible ways:

1) Luke flat out says he followed the old Jedi code which forbade marriage, romantic relations and children.
2) If Luke explains the Jedi code to Rey about this, she could get angry about being forced to follow the old ways because she's just found a makeshift family and say "You left your family, you've never even had children etc, you don't know what it's like to be alone."
3) Leia can say "Luke never had children. He doesn't understand." in regards to her feelings about Kylo Ren.
@AppleCrumble122

As someone on this forum (I forget who, probably multiple, LOL) said, even if Rey and Luke did the nasty there's a select crowd who would still believe Luke is Rey's father. Nothing to do about this. The way Pablo derides those who didn't get that Rey isn't Luke's from Maz's speech to Rey, I don't think they're worried about appealing to that crowd. For us and the GA a defining Kylo/Rey moment (kiss, almost kiss, "I have feelings", etc.) will be enough. I hope that this trilogy will continue in its current trend of not dummying down what it presents for the sake of those who've already made up their minds and/or refuse to believe what they see.

My mother enjoys SW (and all children's fantasy films, like Harry Potter) but she can be considered GA. She's asked multiple times if I think Rey is Luke's because the red herring has totally thrown her off the mark, but she also admits that Kylo has a "not very cousin like" interest in Rey. Once there's an open display of feelings between those two, I guarantee she'll say "Yeah, she's not Luke's." GA isn't dumb, it's just gullible because there's no highly vested interest in the direction SW goes (unlike us fanboys and girls Smile) so they accept the red herrings at face value. They're logical enough that once the actual story plays out, they'll accept it for what it is. It's the hardcore Reywalkers who aren't on board, and I doubt Disney/LFL care about appealing to such a small and patently small-minded crowd.
@MeadowofAshes

There's a podcast under the banner of MSW but totally different people-- two guys, devoted Reywalkers to the extent that it's sexist and offensive (if Rey isn't Luke's kid, she's nobody and they're giving up on Star Wars, but no such standards for the male characters, etc.)-- but they had other people on to discuss TFA one time, including a woman, and she totally picked up on it. Her term for Kylo in the interrogation was "inappropriate," and she talked about him getting way up in Rey's personal space if I remember rightly. She certainly wasn't shipping Reylo-- just noticing Kylo's interest, on their podcast. And yet these guys are so wedded to the Reywalker thing that they didn't see it-- for some people, they'll have to be really hit over the head with it.

That said, I have to admit that at first I didn't believe Darth Vader when he said, "No, I am your father." But I was 8 years old, which is an excuse. Smile
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by Lily Snape on Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 23:30

@IoJovi wrote:Second that. I'm pretty positive that's a manip.
@IoJovi

This one showed up back on the original huge thread back in the day, and was quickly determined to be manipulated.
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by Search Your Feelings on Fri 1 Jul 2016 - 11:18

That is a pretty good manip!
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by Maria Antonietta on Fri 1 Jul 2016 - 11:38

@Lily Snape wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@AppleCrumble122 wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:High likelihood of real kiss between Rey and Kylo. Could be in the heat of things or regretted. I would also settle for almost kiss or "I have feelings for you", something that clearly spells out the sexual tension. No more ambiguity.
@MeadowofAshes

I don't think there'll be ambiguity. The whole point of TFA playing it subtle and everyone keeping quiet about Rey/Kylo is IMO about dropping an unexpected twist on the audience, which by its nature can't really be subtle.

I do hope they clear up the question of Rey's parents in Episode VIII; I just know that even if she and Kylo kiss there will still be a large part of the audience convinced that they just saw cousins kiss in a Disney movie.

@Saracene I agree and considering that whole Luke/Leia mess, just having them kiss won't be enough to convince them. Even though TFA itself debunks Luke from having children with Leia's line to Han "Luke is a Jedi, you're his father." I think it needs to be said out straight. This is speculation, but I can see three possible ways:

1) Luke flat out says he followed the old Jedi code which forbade marriage, romantic relations and children.
2) If Luke explains the Jedi code to Rey about this, she could get angry about being forced to follow the old ways because she's just found a makeshift family and say "You left your family, you've never even had children etc, you don't know what it's like to be alone."
3) Leia can say "Luke never had children. He doesn't understand." in regards to her feelings about Kylo Ren.
@AppleCrumble122

As someone on this forum (I forget who, probably multiple, LOL) said, even if Rey and Luke did the nasty there's a select crowd who would still believe Luke is Rey's father. Nothing to do about this. The way Pablo derides those who didn't get that Rey isn't Luke's from Maz's speech to Rey, I don't think they're worried about appealing to that crowd. For us and the GA a defining Kylo/Rey moment (kiss, almost kiss, "I have feelings", etc.) will be enough. I hope that this trilogy will continue in its current trend of not dummying down what it presents for the sake of those who've already made up their minds and/or refuse to believe what they see.

My mother enjoys SW (and all children's fantasy films, like Harry Potter) but she can be considered GA. She's asked multiple times if I think Rey is Luke's because the red herring has totally thrown her off the mark, but she also admits that Kylo has a "not very cousin like" interest in Rey. Once there's an open display of feelings between those two, I guarantee she'll say "Yeah, she's not Luke's." GA isn't dumb, it's just gullible because there's no highly vested interest in the direction SW goes (unlike us fanboys and girls Smile) so they accept the red herrings at face value. They're logical enough that once the actual story plays out, they'll accept it for what it is. It's the hardcore Reywalkers who aren't on board, and I doubt Disney/LFL care about appealing to such a small and patently small-minded crowd.
@MeadowofAshes

There's a podcast under the banner of MSW but totally different people-- two guys, devoted Reywalkers to the extent that it's sexist and offensive (if Rey isn't Luke's kid, she's nobody and they're giving up on Star Wars, but no such standards for the male characters, etc.)-- but they had other people on to discuss TFA one time, including a woman, and she totally picked up on it. Her term for Kylo in the interrogation was "inappropriate," and she talked about him getting way up in Rey's personal space if I remember rightly. She certainly wasn't shipping Reylo-- just noticing Kylo's interest, on their podcast. And yet these guys are so wedded to the Reywalker thing that they didn't see it-- for some people, they'll have to be really hit over the head with it.

That said, I have to admit that at first I didn't believe Darth Vader when he said, "No, I am your father." But I was 8 years old, which is an excuse. Smile
@Lily Snape

Oh I know those guys, same people who have read hades and persephone meta and answered with: reylo fans won't have nothing like that, she should chop his head off for the things he did. yeah maybe when sw will stop being a fairy tale for kids
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by Marchtwin on Fri 1 Jul 2016 - 12:57


How's this for a Reylo kiss?

Today, for the first time in all 18 years of my life, I have watched Beauty and the Beast. It's ridiculous how much of interaction between Belle and the beast is identical to Rey and Kylo's. ''It IS you!'' I mean, come on.

Sister and I giggled for the whole movie. Was thinking of you guys and your metas during every scene.

Today, I have seen the light.
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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by LadyHa on Fri 1 Jul 2016 - 13:25

@Force22 wrote:Oh, you guys want a kiss with tongue? I personally don't like it in movies.
This for me is too much. Get a room, guys... I don't know, I just don't find it aesthetically pleasing... Maybe I'm weird.
@Force22

Haha!  I don't know if I care about that aspect.  In general, onscreen kisses can be very boring in that they often feel contrived and shoehorned in as a replacement for more honest sensual interactions.  I feel like I have seen the same type of kissing scenes so many times, such as would be lovers rather suddenly are inspired to run at each other, mash their faces together, aaaand End Scene.  How often does that happen in real life?  I am not implying that there should be more explicit activity, but can't studios be a little more creative sometimes?  For example, the Notorious kissing scene?

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Re: Kiss of F8TE

Post by Maria Antonietta on Fri 1 Jul 2016 - 13:30

@Marchtwin wrote:
How's this for a Reylo kiss?

Today, for the first time in all 18 years of my life, I have watched Beauty and the Beast. It's ridiculous how much of interaction between Belle and the beast is identical to Rey and Kylo's. ''It IS you!'' I mean, come on.

Sister and I giggled for the whole movie. Was thinking of you guys and your metas during every scene.

Today, I have seen the light.
@Marchtwin

Don't forget:
You're my guest
The girl
Master
Did he hurt you lol!
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