Why do we care so much?

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Why do we care so much?

Post by Slade on Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 1:28

I have never been this invested in a fictional character (Kylo).  Not ever.  The closest I have come was the character of Louis in Interview with the Vampire.  I was pretty obsessed with him, but not like this.

Other people here have made similar comments.  I thought it might be interesting to discuss why (I'm not sure whether this needed to be here or in Maz's castle or someplace else).

For me, it's very personal, and it has to do with the fact that I identify with Kylo so much.  I"ll explore this more if anyone wants to discuss this topic.
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 1:38

Primary reason for me: I walked out of the theater understanding that a redemption arc was presented even though I was quite angry with him for offing Han Solo. I'm intrigued by the mystery of how this will play out.

Other reasons:
He's the son of my two childhood favorites.
I find him to be relatable as a character who has hit the low point in his life and desperately needs to find his way out of darkness.
I understood he felt shocked by what he had done and I want to watch him work to atone for it.
I want him to come home for his mother's sake.
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by Sylvia Snow on Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 2:09

For me, I am a fan of villian and heroine romance, which is so rare to see on movies, not to mention Kylo heritage, it only makes this like some Shakespeare plays of a tragic hero waiting to be rescued. Not to mention,it would make an interesting story lines
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 2:23

Same thing for me, I identify with Kylo. Primarily because of his "ultimate outsider" status. And because he appears to be stuck in a situation that's making him profoundly unhappy and looks like a state of living death.

I don't know if I'd be this invested if I hadn't been in a bad place mentally when I saw TFA. Just then, Kylo's struggle became my struggle, in a way; and since then the struggle has become important to me in a less personal but no less powerful way. The light that pulls him seems like a metaphor for hope in a world that otherwise seems overwhelmingly hopeless. I would find it an extremely pessimistic and soul-crushing message if he did not find his way back to life and light.
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by snufkin on Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 12:18

TBH my sympathy has always been more towards Rey, coming from a family with more than a few orphans/abandoned children. Oh and I came out of the theater to find a guy trying to damage my car and almost got into a fight with him defending myself.

Otherwise, I was just curious and went online because I knew something had happened and was setting up these two characters for something major. Instead most of what I found was either willfully wrong or condescending/patronizing/mansplaining. I'm not above hoping that they suck face in the next movie just to watch those people's response

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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by Slade on Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 12:28

@Darth Dingbat wrote:Same thing for me, I identify with Kylo. Primarily because of his "ultimate outsider" status. And because he appears to be stuck in a situation that's making him profoundly unhappy and looks like a state of living death.

I don't know if I'd be this invested if I hadn't been in a bad place mentally when I saw TFA. Just then, Kylo's struggle became my struggle, in a way; and since then the struggle has become important to me in a less personal but no less powerful way. The light that pulls him seems like a metaphor for hope in a world that otherwise seems overwhelmingly hopeless. I would find it an extremely pessimistic and soul-crushing message if he did not find his way back to life and light.
@Darth Dingbat

That.  So much that.  Lol, I was in  a dark place when I saw it, too.  WARNING--fixing to get a little personal. Will try to be circumspect.

 I think I have said as much before, but I don't think I have ever seen a character who was *so similar* to me in terms of being an outsider, being "dark," being trapped in a life he hated, being mentally unstable, being (or perceiving himself to be) rejected by his family, being traumatized, etc who was *not* portrayed as 100% awful, irredeemable, and despicable.  So when I watch Kylo, I think (regarding the actor and TPTB)  "OMG someone ***gets it!***"  Because there is a compassion in how he is portrayed.  It makes me feel less alone?  Somehow?

I mean, you just don't see portrayals of something like Kylo pounding his wounds really much of anywhere except maybe a Lifetime movie about a teenager who does something similar. And the whole issue is blown off as "attention seeking" when usually nothing is further from the truth.  Or the person is written off as **so very crazy** they need to be hospitalized forever, and that is not accurate either.

 You don't see characters presenting as traumatized the way Kylo is very often (the only time I recall seeing something similar would be in, say, a movie about a Vietnam vet with the most extreme form of PTSD, and such movies (unintentionally) imply that trauma doesn't develop but for something as extreme as combat).  

I don't recall seeing a movie before where the (non-hospitalized, non-schizophrenic) character is being torn apart by the demons in his own mind, where that internal battle and his **rage** are so strong that he has rage attacks.   Phrased differently, the only movies I recall that even approach this are movies with a psychotic person who is hospitalized or needs to be, and the movie centers around schizophrenia.  And Kylo isn't psychotic. 

I mean, none of that stuff feels good; it feels like you are possessed by a devil or something. It's terrifying, and it makes you afraid of yourself.  And Adam nailed it.  Honestly, if I ever met him, I would profusely **thank** him for his portrayal of Kylo.

And yeah, it is a very personal thing for me to see him redeemed somehow (though as far as I am concerned, I hope they *don't* make him all positive, light side, 'cause that's not possible, IMO, and I don't like the idea of them implying that being "dark" is the same as being "evil" 'cause it isn't).  

I think I'm trying to say something about the power of art/fiction/drama to impact us, change us, and somehow help us.  Words have power; stories have power.  And fiction reminds us that we are not alone.
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by snufkin on Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 14:05

@slade wrote:being an outsider, being "dark," being trapped in a life he hated, being mentally unstable, being (or perceiving himself to be) rejected by his family, being traumatized, etc who was *not* portrayed as 100% awful, irredeemable, and despicable. So when I watch Kylo, I think (regarding the actor and TPTB) "OMG someone ***gets it!***" Because there is a compassion in how he is portrayed.

Bolded is part of what just bothered me so much about the nasty comments I've seen (and from people who are supposed to be committed fans of a film series which core message is supposed to be about love and compassion) about this character. Granted people are awful on the Internet in general. But reading those comments is where my "wonder what those people are like on jury duty" comment comes from. Also my whole tangent about Justice versus Mercy.
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by Maria Antonietta on Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 14:19

Hardcore sw fans can be the worst. My family didn't see anything "creepy" during reylo scenes, GA is mind opened about the untold story. We are reacting to a really small minority. Everybody's got a little kylo inside, not everyone is perfect. The heroine has no conflict until she meets her monster, her destiny and that's is the basis of a great story
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 17:16

Adam did such an incredible job with this character that I just found myself caring about him, worrying about him. I remember by the time of catwalk scene I was so invested that I was grabbing onto my hair just thinking, "Don't do it. Don't make this mistake! You don't have to do it!" Han Solo has always been my favorite, but at that moment I was so worried about where this action would take Kylo. I didn't know if he could recover from it. I was mad at that moment that writers had put such a beautifully acted and nuanced and just "beautifully damaged" character in such a terrible hole. I was literally like "What a f***ing waste!" But then I saw the Snow Fight scene. I saw that he didn't get red-eyed like Anakin ... and he wanted to be her teacher, he had let her get the advantage on him, and I was like, "Wait a minute ... there is something going on here." :-)

I've had to explore why her has impacted me so much. A huge part is the acting. I had wanted to be an actor when I was younger, so Adam's work and his story to how he came to his career were very inspiring to me. A lot of movie stars have some industry connection. He had none ... and he is not traditionally good-looking. His acting is just *that good*. I am really into watching performances because I love watching the choices made. You do not come across somehow like him very often. That's why I think people call him "Brando" and "Pacino", because he really is in that kind of category IMO. His courage in being willing to go "all the way" in ways other actors, good actors, do not, is very impressive to me.

But I knew that there had to be something about the character I was connecting with. Why did I care about his well-being so much? I am sure part of it was seeing the disgusting reactions people had to him online, when to me he was absolutely a metaphor for mental illness, drug-addiction, not knowing what to do with his talents and a rather abandoned outsider in a world that did not fit into well. Mental illness, drug addiction and confusion are not reasons for condemnation. People with those conditions can do amazing things, sometimes things that people without those burdens could never achieve. So many successful people have depression, anxiety, bipolar and addictive personalities, but when some of these people overcome some of that ... d*** it's some of the most beautiful things you can ever see in life. There are studies that show that what causes depression also enhances creativity. It is the ultimate dark and light.

Adam Driver himself seems to have significant anxiety. Yet, look at what he does. Mike Wallace had serious depression, but look what he did. How many writers and filmmakers were "abnormal" and still changed the world with their works? Read a Malcolm Gladwell book and see how people use a history of trauma to help fuel them create innovations, including incredibly innovations in science. Sometimes the burden and the overcoming of it can make these people truly extraordinary ... so the online "writing off" as him as "Emo" or "Evil" or a "Turd" like that podcaster guy said in the Alexandra Petri interview @snufkin brought over, just really disgusts me.

But going even deeper, I knew that there was something I was identifying with ... and I realized that I too had dealt with confusion and abandonment issues and a family that was not always a help. But I think the strongest connection was the Snoke and to a lesser extent, Luke, "dependency relationship" thing. We all loved each other in my family, but dysfunctions abounded with my parents that led to me being the "parent" to my parents way too much. And as a result, I developed very co-dependent relationships where their needs and their opinions took precedence over mine. For many years my life was led in a way with the primary thought of "Will this make their life stable and happy?", while the more important question, "Will this make me happy?" came a far second, if at all. Living like this led to a lot of unhappiness on my part, and it has taken years for me to extricate myself from that mindset ... and even now I can be very vulnerable to guilt-tripping and affectations of neediness, and I have to remind myself that my life is my own.

And I think that's the big Kylo connection for me. His life has *never* been his own. He's had a demon whispering in his ear his whole life. The emotional manipulation used on him is on a operatic, supernatural scale ... but I too know what it is to be emotionally manipulated from too young of age. I know what the guilt-tripping whisper sounds like and how it makes you suppress your own self and how eventually it makes you feel resentful and trapped. I also know what it is like to be told how you have to fit into a certain box and to get judgment when you don't follow the rules. Both Snoke and Luke try to put him in a box, and he fits in neither. Vader's helmet puts him in some big guilt-trip burdensome box. He was estranged from his father because he didn't fit in his father's box and probably his mother's box as well. He needs to build his own new box ... but until he values his own worth, his own mind, his own right to choose his future, he will not be able to do that. And he will not be able to do that until he extricates himself from the dependency relationships he is in. And he will not be able to do that until he acknowledges and *then celebrates* and *is okay* with the fact that he doesn't fit. Getting to the point where you think you are entitled to your own life and happiness and that you might be an oddball in the world you were born into is a tall order, and it takes a lot of work ... but it can be done ... and is worth being done.

I have done a lot of that work ... and I want to see him reach those milestones. I don't think he is evil at all. I think he is a mess because of a variety of factors. Dark side/trauma/abuse = mental illness/post-traumatic behavior. His powers and abandonment = confusion and neediness and vulnerability. But if he can break away, tell all the talkers to just shut the f*** up and be like "Yeah, I'm dark and light. Deal with it!", then there will be no stopping him ... because I think one of the things that hold all of those artists and innovators with demons that I mentioned above is the fact is that I think all of them said to themselves at some point, "Yeah, I have demons. That's who I am and that's okay. Now please get out of the way because I've got stuff to do. The demons just get one seat in the bus."
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 20:26

I think I care mainly because I love family-friendly storytelling that can be appreciated on many levels and I see incredible potential in this trilogy. I love Kylo, but I've loved many other characters just as much. I think I just ended up becoming protective of the interpretations my knowledge of narrative design and characterization tell me are accurate. Why? The opposition of course. I honestly couldn't believe that we were living in 2015-2016 and people still didn't know how to watch a movie. When the guy bridal carries the girl, it means something. When the guy watches the girl sleep, it means something. When the guy gets close enough to lick the girl's face and tells her he "feels it too", it means something. When the writers spend an entire movie stressing the bizarre intimate connection between a hero and villain, it means something. Acknowledging the creative decisions of a writer and interpreting what they likely mean is only natural, but it doesn't mean we should know exactly how the story will play out. That's the fun of it. So yeah, it's partly a matter of pride for me, but it's also just about wanting to see SW produce something truly great that overturns conventions and gives fans the same feeling of satisfaction the OT did.
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by BastilaBey on Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 20:37

I've seen a lot of comments elsewhere that it's 'Kylo's obsessed fangirls' who want redemption for him. And while I'll fully admit that he has become my favorite SW character, I am invested in his redemption arc because I'm also a fan of Rey, Han, Leia, Luke, Padme, Anakin...his redemption is crucial to the whole story and the state of the GFFA, so the notion that we want him redeemed just so he can kiss Rey is all kinds of ridiculous. Kasdan wouldn't have his beloved Han Solo die for no reason, he'd have him die loving his son in order to be a catalyst for his turn back to the light. I want Rey to discover who she is and where she belongs through her interactions with Kylo. She'll learn about herself and what she wants and needs just as much as she learns to see the person behind the mask. And I'll stress that I want these things because it's what TFA foreshadowed.

Also just generally, I have always been a sucker for these types of transformative stories with Byronic heroes and inspiring heroines. They are always going to be powerful and captivating because people always need to accept the dark and light sides of themselves. It can be wonderfully cathartic and uplifting to see a 'beastly, cursed' character transform - especially out of love. I've listened to a few podcasts recently where reylo has been floated as an idea and people have dismissed it because it's 'dumb', or 'that didn't work for Anakin so it wouldn't make sense'. Well Anakin fell because love consumed him, it made him afraid. Kylo is afraid now, would love be the answer? I'm sorry but i don't care if that sounds cheesy or dumb to some fans, Star Wars isn't just about lightsabers and fancy force tricks. It's about love and redemption and forgiveness and hope.
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 20:40

@BastilaBey wrote:I've seen a lot of comments elsewhere that it's 'Kylo's obsessed fangirls' who want redemption for him. And while I'll fully admit that he has become my favorite SW character, I am invested in his redemption arc because I'm also a fan of Rey, Han, Leia, Luke, Padme, Anakin...his redemption is crucial to the whole story and the state of the GFFA, so the notion that we want him redeemed just so he can kiss Rey is all kinds of ridiculous. Kasdan wouldn't have his beloved Han Solo die for no reason, he'd have him die loving his son in order to be a catalyst for his turn back to the light. I want Rey to discover who she is and where she belongs through her interactions with Kylo. She'll learn about herself and what she wants and needs just as much as she learns to see the person behind the mask. And I'll stress that I want these things because it's what TFA foreshadowed.

Also just generally, I have always been a sucker for these types of transformative stories with Byronic heroes and inspiring heroines. They are always going to be powerful and captivating because people always need to accept the dark and light sides of themselves. It can be wonderfully cathartic and uplifting to see a 'beastly, cursed' character transform - especially out of love. I've listened to a few podcasts recently where reylo has been floated as an idea and people have dismissed it because it's 'dumb', or 'that didn't work for Anakin so it wouldn't make sense'. Well Anakin fell because love consumed him, it made him afraid. Kylo is afraid now, would love be the answer? I'm sorry but i don't care if that sounds cheesy or dumb to some fans, Star Wars isn't just about lightsabers and fancy force tricks. It's about love and redemption and forgiveness, and hope.
@BastilaBey
^^^^ All of this. Great post. ^^^^

Another big reason I didn't mention is that (like you) I just care about the characters and the galaxy and the story, and isn't that what every writer wants to incite? They want their fans to care. If nobody cares then you probably weren't successful, but man did Kylo succeed.

I care because I'm a PT fan and an OT fan, and now I'm an ST fan now too.
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by Slade on Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 22:34

@SoloSideCousin

(stands and applauds)
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by MindAndMagic on Sun 3 Jul 2016 - 0:52

I have a very specific taste for characters and stories so if I don't see the necessary elements, I lose interest. I'm not one of those fans that can stay a fan for a long period of time like people who attend conventions every year. I need a good story from a psychological point of view, complex, extraordinary and original. Eg I was invested in the OT for a few months when I watched it on DVD a few years ago and loved Luke and the whole story, but afterwards moved on to something else. Then there was the PT (DVD & TV) where what I liked the most was Anakin's complexity, unfortunately the execution was disappointing. Obi Wan and  Palpatine were the only redeeming features for me. The ST now has the unique chance of becoming my favorite because for the first time it shows me characters and types of storylines I'm interested in, it's like they created Kylo specifically to please me. I still think the Emperor is one of the most interesting characters psychologically (I believe there's more to him than meets the eye because of his intelligence, he is not 1-dimensional, at least in the PT), but that's a completely different type of character I love. Kylo is different as a tragic villain whose journey is set for a dramatic redemption with intense emotional suffering and passionate feelings involved. I like the new story, it's fresh, witty, neat and engaging, especially for the young audience. It will become its own thing in VIII and XI. All the characters have the potential to become just as if not more iconic than the established ones (some already have in a way). HOWEVER, as much as I like all of them and am looking forward to seeing the full story, I don't really care that much. I'm not interested in where Rey comes from or how Finn will develop, those are very likely the parts I'll end up skipping once I know the full picture. The whole Resistance thing is filler as far as I'm concerned, but some will prefer it and that's a matter of personal taste. It's just not my cup of tea. The Jedi lore stuff could be interesting, but definitely not something that will keep my interest for long. I'm not invested in mythology or history, but in psychological conflicts, that's my thing. I want to see Kylo being reunited with his family, finding the light and true love with our heroine, Rey reaching her full potential and finding the belonging she seeks with her equal in every way, the outcome of their fascinating connection, those are the moments I'm looking forward to. Truth is, if Kylo wasn't in the movie or if he was very clearly positioned as a villain we are supposed to hate, I'd have lost interest a long time ago and would never bother watching VIII. His story and character are the main things keeping my interest for that long. I never would have guessed SW would be able to create this type of character, never in a million years, it's too good to be true, he is too interesting. I love children's fairytales and stories, they touch your heart and are often the source of the greatest wisdom, but I've never really liked the family-friendly genre, I prefer darker philosophical themes, even in fairytales. What's good about it though is that it cements Kylo's redemption, they will never kill him off as if he is of no importance. So, in short, this is why I care. SW has reached a new level of complexity, which has managed to capture my attention. For the first time I can relate to a SW character (if you don't count Luke, but I'm much less idealistic than he is), for the first time I see my type of story being set up and I'm really curious to see how it will develop.
And, of course, I also take pride in my knowledge and intuition when it comes to narrative setup and and characterisation so it'll be very satisfying to know that we've been right all along.


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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by MeadowofAshes on Sun 3 Jul 2016 - 1:25

I was thinking this was a thread about why we're specifically invested in Kylo/Ben based on the first post, but I guess it's a lot more broad! Okay, so things that have me hooked on the ST as a whole...

TFA was gloriously written. They've really taken this franchise to a literary level. The metaphor, the foreshadowing, the lines that have multiple layers of subtext... It's all so intricately woven.

I want to see if I'm right about how Kylo/Ben and Rey's relationship will play out. I'm also highly invested in the mystery of their connection in general; are they just mysteriously drawn together by the Force or have they both seen each other in a vision? Was that lightsaber passed down to Ben Solo and did it also cause him to first encounter What Girl in a vision? And Rey... I also want to know if I'm right about her being Rey No One who was chosen by the Force because of who she is, and who she is alone (as opposed to being related to any big names) because she is the other side of Ben Solo's coin and has the capacity to bring him home.

Themes of light/truth/goodness shining through the lie of the darkness very much appeal to me.

I want to see further development of Finn and Ben as foils. I'm eager to see how his next encounter with the "traitor" goes, although I'm not expecting to see it until 9.

I adore Leia and I want to see her find peace.

We didn't get enough information for me to be deeply invested yet, but I'm interested in what 8 will deliver to us about the First Jedi Temple and the First Jedi in general.

I want to see Ben apologize to everyone. Not suffer, attempt to make amends. With Rey. Finn. Poe. His mother. His Uncle Luke. His Uncle Chewie. EVERYONE. I find it moving to watch very wrong characters realize they're wrong, admit they're wrong, and then seek to right that wrong to the best of their abilities. And then to see that character welcomed back to the fold even though they feel they don't deserve it. That's powerful to me.
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by guardienne on Sun 3 Jul 2016 - 1:30

i think i have a serious thing for deconstructing villains. and the more i debated with myself and others, the more i saw that.

there are things i really do not understand about it, though, i had friend tell me she cannot understand how at my age, i identify so strongly with a character and that that's somehting she did as a teeenager and i had to agree... so i don't get that. he's the adult content, reylo is the adult content in the film that is otherwise pretty unremarkable for me.

star wars is special, star wars answers to a different thing in me and i'm accepting that and i go with whatever it is it wants to do with me this time.

i feel very protective of kylo, it was immediately obvious how much he needs help with this situation and it doesn't matter who he's murdered or whatever. this is also something i don't fully understand. why do i not give that so much weight? why is it easy to walk off feeling sorry for him and wanting him to be ok?

does not compute and yet here i go and i cannot help myself.
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by Slade on Sun 3 Jul 2016 - 1:49

@guardienne

Yes, regarding your last paragraph, same here.  I asked myself early on if being a Kylo fangirl was the same thing as those serial killer groupies but decided it isn't (ask if you want my rationale).  And I don't think our age has anything to do with it.  People relate to who they relate to, whether it be another real person, a character in a book, or a character in a movie.  It isn't childish, silly, or stupid.  And yes, I'm 100% ready to FIGHT anyone who tries to harm my evil brat prince. Gnagnan
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by guardienne on Sun 3 Jul 2016 - 2:07

@slade let's hear your rationale then Lolilol maybe i can adopt it and feel less like i'm totally losing it.

i think my friend didn't mean it in that way but i can see why for her it's a bit... er... she has seen the film but doesn't identify with kylo. and that's ok as well.

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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by MeadowofAshes on Sun 3 Jul 2016 - 2:25

My MA is in Wellness Coaching and my best friend's is in Social Work. We're trained with a similar perspective. You have to separate the behavior from the person. And if you've never had the thought of harming someone come to mind, not even once, you haven't been in the right situation. Doesn't mean you do it. But it's far more common to have that thought than not; just part and parcel of having a hind brain. To me being able to empathize with Kylo even though you don't agree with his actions means you acknowledge that he's human just like the rest of us.
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by Saracene on Sun 3 Jul 2016 - 2:33

A mix of reasons:

- Redemption is one of my absolute favourite themes in fiction and when done well it can be incredibly powerful and moving.

- I love great characters, and Kylo is definitely a great character, but what I probably love even more is a great dynamic between the characters - it doesn't always have to be a romantic dynamic either. The chemistry, tension, push-and-pull. Rey and Kylo are at their most compelling when interacting with each other and their dynamic is clearly meant to be the heart of these series and I'm extremely eager to see it play out.

- And I won't lie, there's also a bit of satisfaction involved about feeling pretty sure where the story will go (broadly speaking) and the surprise that's about to be sprung on the audience Wink
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by guardienne on Sun 3 Jul 2016 - 2:49

@MeadowofAshes wrote:My MA is in Wellness Coaching and my best friend's is in Social Work. We're trained with a similar perspective. You have to separate the behavior from the person. And if you've never had the thought of harming someone come to mind, not even once, you haven't been in the right situation. Doesn't mean you do it. But it's far more common to have that thought than not; just part and parcel of having a hind brain. To me being able to empathize with Kylo even though you don't agree with his actions means you acknowledge that he's human just like the rest of us.
@MeadowofAshes

yes. separating behaviour from the person is very important.

and i find that when people rub me the wrong way in a serious way, it's worth examing why i respond this way.

kylo rubs me the right way though XD

but anyway, there is a sense that we are the only ones bearing witness to his struggle at the moment and i think that is one reason to root for reylo because we need someone in the story to do it for us. because we are just helpless onlookers.
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by Guest on Sun 3 Jul 2016 - 3:17

I care because they presented Kylo to us as not just a one-dimensional, mustache-twirling character. He's very well drawn out, which says a lot for how long they planned him before the story came to light, and where he's headed. He has layers, and that alone makes him interesting. Marry that with the dynamic of the insane chemistry we were shown between Rey and Kylo (even if they are enemies at the moment), and you can tell from a narrative perspective that this is going somewhere. We were meant to see him carry her and almost caress her face; we were meant to see his anguish and tears and self-loathing when he killed Han. They did that for a reason, and they showed us his desire to teach Rey, rather than harm her, to prove he's not completely lost.

And for me, the suggestion of something more between them pulled me in. Part of my job is to develop relationships between fictional characters, and when you're building a romantic dynamic in an enemies to lovers trope, you leave a little sprinkling of flirtation there. It was in the movie in spades, and aside from being a massive Star Wars nerd, it's what sucked me in and kept me there. Kylo is redeemable, and I do believe they have a plan. If they'd meant us all to hate him, they wouldn't have shown us his vulnerability. I'm personally just following the signs. In Disneyland there are literal SIGNS that say "Can Kylo Ren be redeemed? Meet him and find out." They're putting out the images and teasers with the spoilers that they are for a reason. I'm just invested because the dynamic between Kylo and Rey is so thick you can cut it with a knife. It's there for a reason.

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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by ZioRen on Sun 3 Jul 2016 - 9:13

@Slade wrote:@guardienne

Yes, regarding your last paragraph, same here.  I asked myself early on if being a Kylo fangirl was the same thing as those serial killer groupies but decided it isn't (ask if you want my rationale).  And I don't think our age has anything to do with it.  People relate to who they relate to, whether it be another real person, a character in a book, or a character in a movie.  It isn't childish, silly, or stupid.  And yes, I'm 100% ready to FIGHT anyone who tries to harm my evil brat prince. Gnagnan
@Slade

The serial killer groupie argument was always silly, in my opinion. We can attach to a fictional villain despite their fictional crimes because they're exactly that: fictional. When you're not seriously worried about the morality of something (and the only ones who truly are to the point of hating a character enough that it ruins their day are connecting fiction with reality far too much) you can appreciate a character for who they are and the struggles they have, and feel protective and connected to them from that alone. Whereas in a real life scenario, their actions overwhelm any kind of sympathetic qualities they have. It's not the same for fictional characters because, well, they aren't real. That's what can make villain characters so cathartic.

Complex, greyer villains are created precisely so you can identify yourself or qualities you find highly human and sympathetic within them. That's what makes them grey in the first place, that's the entire point. You're supposed to relate to them to some degree. Some just relate more than others or appreciate that kind of character more, and there's nothing wrong with that despite what some high horse people say. And that's all it really is when someone criticizes you for it; they're trying to reach for reasons to feel superior to you, as people are wont to do.

Kylo Ren is a highly sympathetic character with fears, weaknesses, and struggles that are just as blatant as his horrible traits and his crimes. That's what makes him a great character. Making him Han and Leia's son is supposed to emphasize that, as is their obvious love for him. That at least some of us find ourselves attached to him is exactly the goal in creating a character like him. He's meant to be divisive, and nobody is right or wrong for loving or hating him.
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Re: Why do we care so much?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 3 Jul 2016 - 9:50

@ZioRen wrote:
@Slade wrote:@guardienne

Yes, regarding your last paragraph, same here.  I asked myself early on if being a Kylo fangirl was the same thing as those serial killer groupies but decided it isn't (ask if you want my rationale).  And I don't think our age has anything to do with it.  People relate to who they relate to, whether it be another real person, a character in a book, or a character in a movie.  It isn't childish, silly, or stupid.  And yes, I'm 100% ready to FIGHT anyone who tries to harm my evil brat prince. Gnagnan
@Slade

The serial killer groupie argument was always silly, in my opinion. We can attach to a fictional villain despite their fictional crimes because they're exactly that: fictional. When you're not seriously worried about the morality of something (and the only ones who truly are to the point of hating a character enough that it ruins their day are connecting fiction with reality far too much) you can appreciate a character for who they are and the struggles they have, and feel protective and connected to them from that alone. Whereas in a real life scenario, their actions overwhelm any kind of sympathetic qualities they have. It's not the same for fictional characters because, well, they aren't real. That's what can make villain characters so cathartic.

Complex, greyer villains are created precisely so you can identify yourself or qualities you find highly human and sympathetic within them. That's what makes them grey in the first place, that's the entire point. You're supposed to relate to them to some degree. Some just relate more than others or appreciate that kind of character more, and there's nothing wrong with that despite what some high horse people say. And that's all it really is when someone criticizes you for it; they're trying to reach for reasons to feel superior to you, as people are wont to do.

Kylo Ren is a highly sympathetic character with fears, weaknesses, and struggles that are just as blatant as his horrible traits and his crimes. That's what makes him a great character. Making him Han and Leia's son is supposed to emphasize that, as is their obvious love for him. That at least some of us find ourselves attached to him is exactly the goal in creating a character like him. He's meant to be divisive, and nobody is right or wrong for loving or hating him.
@ZioRen
The serial killer groupie thing is just an insult to characterization, storytelling and artistic creation in general. If Kylo's "fans" are the equivalent of Ted Bundy groupies, what are the people who created the character? What about the actor who played him or the writers who used him as a tool to take out Han Solo? Because if you want to get down to that level then J.J. an Kasdan killed Han. They came up with the idea, they wrote it into the script and they executed it on-screen. They're storytellers who used a character to tell a story. Kylo is just part of that story, and the cues that sympathize Kylo also came from their minds. They were all creative decisions from writers. But I think that's one of the biggest problems here. Fans are incapable of understanding the creative process or the fact that the character they hate so much came from the mind of human beings. Does that make J.J. or Kasan twisted, vile murderers? F*** no. How asinine. They're artists. They use writing to explore facets of the human condition, and you can clearly see that in Kylo. They chose to have Kylo kill Han just as much as they chose to have Leia say there was still light in him.
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