"The Empire Needs Children"

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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by vaderito on Wed 13 Jul - 12:18

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I have the feeling we are going to find out something really juicy regarding Kylo in Episode VIII.
Why? Because none of these tie in novels have so far revealed anything about his backstory, or what turned him. Bloodline simply mentions that he was 23, and that Leia believed him to be 'happy' - something Adam and JJ have refuted on film.

Life Debt gives us some more history regarding Poe and Hux, but again, nothing about Kylo - or Rey.
Which gives me the impression that they are waiting for the movies to spring the big reveal! And that it's going to be big!
@motherofpearl1

Totally. They won't reveal anything of note about major characters in the books.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by vaderito on Wed 13 Jul - 13:20

Haven't read the book but many things point out that my pet theory Winter Soldier!Kylo aka Manchurian!Kylo may be a go. Which also ties in with Finn's ability to break through programming.

Spoiler:
apparently, book is full of evidence of programming/brainwashing including main character's husband who has a Manchurian!Kylo moment and reaction after that's exactly like



from Aftermath Life Debt Thread, credit @panki:

There is a big reveal that could impact Kylo's agency on that walkway... there are parallels to something involving Snap Wexley and his father but the situation is reversed... someone is capable of getting into people's heads and making them do things against their will....Brentin Wexley was arrested by the imperials a few years before and he reappears acting strange.... then he almost kills his son and tries to assassinate Mon Mothma.....luckily his wife stops him from the assasination attempt...his wife figure out that someone has turned him into a puppet.

Here is a particularly interesting part-

Norra twists Brentin’s arm upward so that he can’t fire another shot—and he spins to meet her. His face is a mask of horror. It’s as if he can’t believe what he just did. His mouth is open in a hopeless oh, eyes glistening with tears. He mouths, I’m sorry, then he drives a knee into her stomach—
“Brentin,” she cries.
He slams the gun down on the back of her head and she drops.

Sounds really good to me.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Maria Antonietta on Wed 13 Jul - 13:36

@vaderito wrote:Haven't read the book but many things point out that my pet theory Winter Soldier!Kylo aka Manchurian!Kylo may be a go. Which also ties in with Finn's ability to break through programming.

Spoiler:
apparently, book is full of evidence of programming/brainwashing including main character's husband who has a Manchurian!Kylo moment and reaction after that's exactly like



from Aftermath Life Debt Thread, credit @panki:

There is a big reveal that could impact Kylo's agency on that walkway... there are parallels to something involving Snap Wexley and his father but the situation is reversed... someone is capable of getting into people's heads and making them do things against their will....Brentin Wexley was arrested by the imperials a few years before and he reappears acting strange.... then he almost kills his son and tries to assassinate Mon Mothma.....luckily his wife stops him from the assasination attempt...his wife figure out that someone has turned him into a puppet.

Here is a particularly interesting part-

Norra twists Brentin’s arm upward so that he can’t fire another shot—and he spins to meet her. His face is a mask of horror. It’s as if he can’t believe what he just did. His mouth is open in a hopeless oh, eyes glistening with tears. He mouths, I’m sorry, then he drives a knee into her stomach—
“Brentin,” she cries.
He slams the gun down on the back of her head and she drops.

Sounds really good to me.
@vaderito

Holy sith of manchurian
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ZenBrainJam on Wed 13 Jul - 13:42

For some reason the brainwashed man that is not truly responsible for his actions does not have the same appeal to me than "I am Kylo Ren, I had made mistakes, I will work my a** out of it".
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by vaderito on Wed 13 Jul - 14:00

@ZenBrainJam wrote:For some reason the brainwashed man that is not truly responsible for his actions does not have the same appeal to me than "I am Kylo Ren, I had made mistakes, I will work my a** out of it".
@ZenBrainJam

It's actually worse because he did something he wouldn't do. So guilt and deed are there. he did it. Couldn't break through it.

I don't think it's a cheat. At all.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by CienaRee on Wed 13 Jul - 14:01

@ZenBrainJam wrote:For some reason the brainwashed man that is not truly responsible for his actions does not have the same appeal to me than "I am Kylo Ren, I had made mistakes, I will work my a** out of it".
@ZenBrainJam

Well,to play the devil's advocate just because he could have been  possesed to kill his father doesn't absolve him of the other people he's most likely killed.I mean if we go by  Pablo's tweets  Kylo and the Knights of Ren have went to villages and killed people so he'll still have to take responasbility for those murders.

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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 13 Jul - 14:32

Absolutely. But it does show why he's mentally unstable; a side effect of repeated brainwashing. And his crimes could be a result of his 'insanity', so to speak.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by vaderito on Wed 13 Jul - 14:38

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Absolutely. But it does show why he's mentally unstable; a side effect of repeated brainwashing. And his crimes could be a result of his 'insanity', so to speak.
@motherofpearl1

Plus, it wouldn't be a cop out because there's set up for that in TFA. It's there.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by panki on Wed 13 Jul - 15:01

@vaderito wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Absolutely. But it does show why he's mentally unstable; a side effect of repeated brainwashing. And his crimes could be a result of his 'insanity', so to speak.
@motherofpearl1

Plus, it wouldn't be a cop out because there's set up for that in TFA. It's there.
@vaderito

I'm not saying this is the ideal solution but I'm happy with this primarily because of Han's death.... people would be more willing to forgive Kylo if it turns out his mind was taken over and he was made to kill Han.... if he had killed random people, I'd definitely have been more open to the option of atonement... I hear all these youtube videos of people saying the only atonement for Han's death is that Kylo must die etc.... so the only way to placate that crowd is to show Kylo never wanted to kill Han in the first place and now he will try to avenge his father's death.

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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by vaderito on Wed 13 Jul - 15:04

@panki wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Absolutely. But it does show why he's mentally unstable; a side effect of repeated brainwashing. And his crimes could be a result of his 'insanity', so to speak.
@motherofpearl1

Plus, it wouldn't be a cop out because there's set up for that in TFA. It's there.
@vaderito

I'm not saying this is the ideal solution but I'm happy with this primarily because of Han's death.... people would be more willing to forgive Kylo if it turns out his mind was taken over and he was made to kill Han.... if he had killed random people, I'd definitely have been more open to the option of atonement... I hear all these youtube videos of people saying the only atonement for Han's death is that Kylo must die etc.... so the only way to placate that crowd is to show Kylo never wanted to kill Han in the first place and now he will try to avenge his father's death.
@panki

He never wanted to kill him. It's all in the movie. If they go with Winter!Kylo it'll be because it has always been the plan. And parts of the plan are visible in TFA.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by snufkin on Wed 13 Jul - 15:16

I'm almost inclined to believe that they have to show him being under some kind of brainwashing because he's the 3rd in a trio where there have been multiple parallels depicted (the introduction with a mask and demasking the big one). Finn had mental conditioning from a child as part of his training and broke through it to both flee and then oppose the FO and Rey obviously has something done to both her memories of her parents and the overwhelming belief that she had to stay put on Jakku and wait for them, contrary to evidence.

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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by vaderito on Wed 13 Jul - 15:20

@snufkin wrote:I'm almost inclined to believe that they have to show him being under some kind of brainwashing because he's the 3rd in a trio where there have been multiple parallels depicted (the introduction with a mask and demasking the big one). Finn had mental conditioning from a child as part of his training and broke through it to both flee and then oppose the FO and Rey obviously has something done to both her memories of her parents and the overwhelming belief that she had to stay put on Jakku and wait for them, contrary to evidence.

@snufkin

They have to bring up why Kylo let Finn go. It's too a memorable moment to just be a plot device that allowed Finn to escape.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ZenBrainJam on Wed 13 Jul - 15:20

Well IF that's the case, or they will do it in such a beautiful way that I will be totally conviced and caught, or I will lose a huge part of my fascination for the character. Either way it will be good. It's just fiction.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 13 Jul - 15:26

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I have the feeling we are going to find out something really juicy regarding Kylo in Episode VIII.
Why? Because none of these tie in novels have so far revealed anything about his backstory, or what turned him. Bloodline simply mentions that he was 23, and that Leia believed him to be 'happy' - something Adam and JJ have refuted on film.

Life Debt gives us some more history regarding Poe and Hux, but again, nothing about Kylo - or Rey.
Which gives me the impression that they are waiting for the movies to spring the big reveal! And that it's going to be big!
@motherofpearl1
I completely agree. Things they explore in books are not going to be explored in the movies. Currently that extends to Poe's backstory, Rey's childhood on Jakku, Finn's backstory with the Troopers, Hux's backstory and the events of Bloodline (minus Ben and Luke's potential reactions to said events). Kylo and Luke have been kept totally under-wraps because their history is going to be explored in trilogy content. Pablo even said there were no plans to write comics about Kylo when he's "so heavily involved in the films".
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by vaderito on Wed 13 Jul - 15:29

@ZenBrainJam wrote:Well IF that's the case, or they will do it in such a beautiful way that I will be totally conviced and caught, or I will lose a huge part of my fascination for the character. Either way it will be good. It's just fiction.
@ZenBrainJam

It's going to be amazing and won't leave a dry eye. I fully expect cheer-worthy moments such as
Spoiler:
kiss of life/true love, legacy saber flying to Kylo, temple tree blooming again
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ZenBrainJam on Wed 13 Jul - 15:58

@vaderito
It would be lovely, I am sure, moving and visually appealing... but explaining the whole dark sider inner conflict with brainwash for me is diminished characterization. IDK... I can't really pinpoint why, it's frustrating. Maybe it's because I don't know very well the winter soldier story?
So if Kylo was maneuvered the whole time he doesn't have any political reason for his actions, any great self sacrificing purpose, he doesn't need any redemption. He is already good, just doesn't remember. The role of Rey? A post it, a memo. Oh so I am not truly a FO affiliate, I didn't remembered it, thanks Rey for telling me. Wanna kiss?
No conflict between Kylo and Luke, no dirty secret between them, no agency for Kylo Ren. He is not vulnerable, or conflicted, he is just confused. He is not love starved, lonely, lost. He is just brainwashed.

I repeat, maybe I don't know the winter soldier story enough, maybe I don't understand what is the Manchurian candidate reference (I saw the movie but I don't remember it anymore, probably because I didn't like it so much) but if you are right I am about to losing interest in Kylo Ren and the whole reylo. It's just me, obviously.


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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by snufkin on Wed 13 Jul - 15:58

@vaderito wrote:
@snufkin wrote:I'm almost inclined to believe that they have to show him being under some kind of brainwashing because he's the 3rd in a trio where there have been multiple parallels depicted (the introduction with a mask and demasking the big one). Finn had mental conditioning from a child as part of his training and broke through it to both flee and then oppose the FO and Rey obviously has something done to both her memories of her parents and the overwhelming belief that she had to stay put on Jakku and wait for them, contrary to evidence.

@snufkin

They have to bring up why Kylo let Finn go. It's too a memorable moment to just be a plot device that allowed Finn to escape.
@vaderito

I'm really curious if that's part of the supposed "she saw something in his mind" rumor? Or if it's going to be tied back to whatever happened to him with the whole bad things went down at Luke's charter school scenario since one of the theories is that he was forced into/kidnapped. But definitely at some point it has to be brought up because those two will face each other again, likely when Finn has actually risen to the level of being an actual Big Deal.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 13 Jul - 16:03

@panki wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Absolutely. But it does show why he's mentally unstable; a side effect of repeated brainwashing. And his crimes could be a result of his 'insanity', so to speak.
@motherofpearl1

Plus, it wouldn't be a cop out because there's set up for that in TFA. It's there.
@vaderito

I'm not saying this is the ideal solution but I'm happy with this primarily because of Han's death.... people would be more willing to forgive Kylo if it turns out his mind was taken over and he was made to kill Han.... if he had killed random people, I'd definitely have been more open to the option of atonement... I hear all these youtube videos of people saying the only atonement for Han's death is that Kylo must die etc.... so the only way to placate that crowd is to show Kylo never wanted to kill Han in the first place and now he will try to avenge his father's death.
@panki

That crowd really annoy me - I was mad when I first heard what was going to happen, until I actually saw it.

It was heartbreaking for them both. And if you are really a fan of Han Solo - I've loved him since I was twelve - then you'd want his son - all that's left of Han - to survive. And find happiness. Because it's what Han died for.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by snufkin on Wed 13 Jul - 16:03

And the whole reason why I even mentioned Hux in the first place was just that quote. The whole "needs young people" reminds me of working in the tech industry, where they go for people straight out of school when you're young, more easy to mold/willing to please, energetic, etc. It's a bit of a HR tactic, get them while they can be indoctrinated and you can get the most out of them. Otherwise I definitely agree there's not going to be any sympathetic or tragic backstory other than him being a foil and eventual actual enemy to Ben. They're just a lot of fun to watch sniping at each other and you'd imagine there's going to be a whole new level of nastiness because Hux rescued him from getting blown up.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Sylvia Snow on Wed 13 Jul - 16:15

Actually I see this whole situation as somethings more like the "Hitler Young" where the Emperor tried to trained those young children as young ages in order for them to establish a loyalty to the Empire and its ideas no matter what. Most of them may not bad in heart and can change or rehabilitate but those who are extremists will continue to carry on with the belief and I think this is the case for Hux. He's completely, fully embrace the idea of a more superior First Order and Supreme Leader Snoke as well as his methods of political. He might have a bad childhood, being a bastard son and all but this is taking things too far, when he push forward the plan to destroyed those planets without any compromise or discussion. His technique is more like "blood and iron" and " divide and conquer" which is clearly show a dictatorship behavior
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by snufkin on Wed 13 Jul - 16:19

@Sylvia Snow wrote:Actually I see this whole situation as somethings more like the "Hitler Young" where the Emperor tried to trained those young children as young ages in order for them to establish a loyalty to the Empire and its ideas no matter what. Most of them may not bad in heart and can change or rehabilitate but those who are extremists will continue to carry on with the belief and I think this is the case for Hux. He's completely, fully embrace the idea of a more superior First Order and Supreme Leader Snoke as well as his methods of political. He might have a bad childhood, being a bastard son and all but this is taking things too far, when he push forward the plan to destroyed those planets without any compromise or discussion.
@Sylvia Snow

Oh definitely, which is why I earlier had mentioned that besides the obvious parallel of the Lebensborn, I thought of the Children of Los Desparacidos in Argentina. Partially because the exiled Nazis were mentioned as an inspiration for the First Order. Just that having worked in the tech industry, there's a reason why they prefer employees who are very young, easier to mold into giving over your entire life/identity to being an employee.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 13 Jul - 16:19

@snufkin wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@snufkin wrote:I'm almost inclined to believe that they have to show him being under some kind of brainwashing because he's the 3rd in a trio where there have been multiple parallels depicted (the introduction with a mask and demasking the big one). Finn had mental conditioning from a child as part of his training and broke through it to both flee and then oppose the FO and Rey obviously has something done to both her memories of her parents and the overwhelming belief that she had to stay put on Jakku and wait for them, contrary to evidence.

@snufkin

They have to bring up why Kylo let Finn go. It's too a memorable moment to just be a plot device that allowed Finn to escape.
@vaderito

I'm really curious if that's part of the supposed "she saw something in his mind" rumor? Or if it's going to be tied back to whatever happened to him with the whole bad things went down at Luke's charter school scenario since one of the theories is that he was forced into/kidnapped. But definitely at some point it has to be brought up because those two will face each other again, likely when Finn has actually risen to the level of being an actual Big Deal.
@snufkin
I've never been a big supporter of "brainwashed Kylo" (not against it though as it could be just one of many potential good stories), but I think it would make the whole "Luke wants Rey to kill Kylo rumour" make a whole lot more sense. If Luke believes Kylo is beyond saving because his mind has been physically warped and he feels he's putting his nephew out of his misery then it falls more into place narratively and it's a lot more believable for Luke as a character. It would be Luke wanting to save Ben from Kylo, just in a way that would involve the death of both simultaneously.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by snufkin on Wed 13 Jul - 16:28

@FrolickingFizzgig - I'm mostly inclined to believe it because of the trio parallels already shown - Lost Children, the Masks, Who You Present Yourself as Is Not Who You Are, etc. Finn is explicitly stated to have been through mental conditioning for the Stormtrooper program and you increasingly suspect somebody has done something to Rey's memories to make her stay put on Jakku with her insistence that she has to go back there. So with the other parallels they've shown him to have with them, that's where I start to think that's possibly another element

Otherwise, anything to do with brainwashing or false memories is pretty classic science fiction, especially Phillip K. D ick or even more old school writers like A. E. van Vogt. Rey definitely started to give me vibes of my all-time favorite Doctor Who episode Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead with the preserved consciousness, especially Donna is trapped in there



Other real world example if they go for the brainwashed explanation, he could be like Patty Hearst, who was kidnapped and brainwashed into cooperating with a fringe terrorist group.

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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Search Your Feelings on Wed 13 Jul - 16:34

@vaderito wrote:
@Search Your Feelings wrote:What was interesting about Hux is that, in addition to his sneery, sycophantic character,  he was a terrible general when it came down to it.

SKB was imploding, his men were panicking ("Stay at your stations!" "Even Hux is gone!"), no one knew where he was.  Hux, as their general, should've been telling his men to save themselves and then run to Snoke, not abandon them.

I really enjoy Hux and Kylo's rivalry and bickering, however. Laughing
@Search Your Feelings

He's a type of character that shouldn't be killed by one designated person but simply left behind by his men due to poor leadership skills. "Even Hux is gone" says it all. Captain should never leave the ship first.
@vaderito

Exactly, their first duty is to their men and women and to go down with the ship if there's any trouble (or at least stay till the end before running).
So that was kind of a surprise that his loyalties were first to Snoke, a non military type supernatural being, when he has nothing to do with the Force. I guess he believes in the darkside, like the Church of the Force.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Search Your Feelings on Wed 13 Jul - 16:44

@vaderito wrote:
@ZenBrainJam wrote:Well IF that's the case, or they will do it in such a beautiful way that I will be totally conviced and caught, or I will lose a huge part of my fascination for the character. Either way it will be good. It's just fiction.
@ZenBrainJam

It's going to be amazing and won't leave a dry eye. I fully expect cheer-worthy moments such as
Spoiler:
kiss of life/true love, legacy saber flying to Kylo, temple tree blooming again
@vaderito

Yes, I really want the legacy saber to fly to Kylo in the time of need. I am going to cheer so hard when that happens. Laughing
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