"The Empire Needs Children"

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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by vaderito on Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:49 am

@Search Your Feelings wrote:
Yes, I really want the legacy saber to fly to Kylo in the time of need. I am going to cheer so hard when that happens. Laughing
@Search Your Feelings

Everyone will. Kylo's arc is going to be so amazing that even antis won't resist cheering.

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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Search Your Feelings on Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:52 am

@panki wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Absolutely. But it does show why he's mentally unstable; a side effect of repeated brainwashing. And his crimes could be a result of his 'insanity', so to speak.
@motherofpearl1

Plus, it wouldn't be a cop out because there's set up for that in TFA. It's there.
@vaderito

I'm not saying this is the ideal solution but I'm happy with this primarily because of Han's death.... people would be more willing to forgive Kylo if it turns out his mind was taken over and he was made to kill Han.... if he had killed random people, I'd definitely have been more open to the option of atonement... I hear all these youtube videos of people saying the only atonement for Han's death is that Kylo must die etc.... so the only way to placate that crowd is to show Kylo never wanted to kill Han in the first place and now he will try to avenge his father's death.
@panki

True, the Han thing is still a very sore spot for me with Kylo as were the villagers and LSK to a lesser extent. But I was hoping for Han's touch on his cheek to be the thing that starts his redemption. But I also don't mind a Manchurian Candidate type situation because that certainly makes it smoother for the GA to accept Kylo's actions and possible love with Rey.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by vaderito on Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:54 am

@Search Your Feelings wrote:  

True, the Han thing is still a very sore spot for me with Kylo as were the villagers and LSK to a lesser extent.  But I was hoping for Han's touch on his cheek to be the thing that starts his redemption. But I also don't mind a Manchurian Candidate type situation because that certainly makes it smoother for the GA to accept Kylo's actions and possible love with Rey.
@Search Your Feelings

It does. It breaks through Winter Soldier. He was supposed to stay WS after that but he snapped out of it. Come to think of it, similar to Finn friend's blood mark on Finn's helmet. they ahev to do something about Kylo and Finn parallels and connection. there's just too much intriguing material left unspoken.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Search Your Feelings on Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:56 am

@vaderito wrote:
@Search Your Feelings wrote:  

True, the Han thing is still a very sore spot for me with Kylo as were the villagers and LSK to a lesser extent.  But I was hoping for Han's touch on his cheek to be the thing that starts his redemption. But I also don't mind a Manchurian Candidate type situation because that certainly makes it smoother for the GA to accept Kylo's actions and possible love with Rey.
@Search Your Feelings

It does. It breaks through Winter Soldier. He was supposed to stay WS after that but he snapped out of it. Come to think of it, similar to Finn friend's blood mark on Finn's helmet. they ahev to do something about Kylo and Finn parallels and connection. there's just too much intriguing material left unspoken.
@vaderito

But people would say, why did Kylo go after Rey and Finn in the forest if he snapped out of it from Han's touch?
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:01 pm

@ZenBrainJam wrote:@vaderito
It would be lovely, I am sure, moving and visually appealing... but explaining the whole dark sider inner conflict with brainwash for me is diminished characterization. IDK... I can't really pinpoint why, it's frustrating. Maybe it's because I don't know very well the winter soldier story?
So if Kylo was maneuvered the whole time he doesn't have any political reason for his actions, any great self sacrificing purpose, he doesn't need any redemption. He is already good, just doesn't remember. The role of Rey? A post it, a memo. Oh so I am not truly a FO affiliate, I didn't remembered it, thanks Rey for telling me. Wanna kiss?
No conflict between Kylo and Luke, no dirty secret between them, no agency for Kylo Ren. He is not vulnerable, or conflicted, he is just confused. He is not love starved, lonely, lost. He is just brainwashed.

I repeat, maybe I don't know the winter soldier story enough, maybe I don't understand what is the Manchurian candidate reference (I saw the movie but I don't remember it anymore, probably because I didn't like it so much) but if you are right I am about to losing interest in Kylo Ren and the whole reylo. It's just me, obviously.
@ZenBrainJam

I can understand that - brainwashed!Kylo is not my favourite scenario either.

But judging by these short Life Debt snippets - of people being compelled to do things against their will - if they take this route with Kylo, I don't think it would be a case of brainwashing, per se.

I always mention Vitiate/Valkorion (sorry), but Vitiate possessed people (he was capable of possessing/controlling many at the same time) and that possession ultimately destroyed the victims' own minds. Thus it would be more like a disease - or a parasite - than brainwashing. The victim's own mind is ultimately wiped out, and nothing remains but madness and the Emperor's will. And death.

If something like this is what's going on with Kylo, then everybody who has read Kylo as being coded as mentally ill has been absolutely correct. In that case, Ben Solo's mind is disintegrating. But crucially, it's still there. And if this is a mental illness metaphor, then it will be love that will help him on his road to recovery. On the level of plot, I suspect that whatever bond has been created between Rey and Kylo will help Kylo shut out the mind control - i.e., get rid of the parasite that is destroying his sanity and identity.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by vaderito on Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:06 pm

@Search Your Feelings wrote:  

But people would say, why did Kylo go after Rey and Finn in the forest if he snapped out of it from Han's touch?
@Search Your Feelings

he didn't attack any of them. Both fights plus the TREE were initiated by Rey or Finn. Also, he was clearly projecting onto them (mostly Finn) all his grievances with himself. But unlike Finn's breakaway, if that was what it was, Kylo's wasn't boom he's now good guy or whatever. It went down with a nervous breakdown which makes sense considering what he did as opposed to what Finn refused to do.

Also, Winter Soldier!Kylo fits into Enchanted Prince narrative.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:43 pm

@vaderito wrote:
Also, Winter Soldier!Kylo fits into Enchanted Prince narrative.
@vaderito

It definitely would. It would also firmly establish Rey as the hero.

Most of the redemption scenarios in our theories have focused on Kylo. The choice to redeem himself needs to be his, and therefore the most psychologically interesting journey - the journey to atone and to prove himself worthy - would be his.

But if he is a prince under an evil spell, it isn't really a story of redemption anymore, and therefore Rey's role would be more as an active heroic rescuer, not as an inspiration for redemption.

This is kind of what I meant in the other thread - hard to say where the story is headed when we don't yet know what the story is about. Is it a story of redemption (fallen!Kylo), is it a story of rescue (prince-under-an-evil-spell!Kylo), is it a story of recovery from a metaphorical mental illness (insanity-defence!Kylo), or is it a story of hidden heroism (double-agent-Snape!Kylo)? Or some other kind of story I can't guess yet.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:45 pm

I haven't commented on any individual posts, but I'm finding this discussion pretty fascinating.

For those who are more up on the topic... If they're going the Winter Soldier route, do you think it's possible that Ben/Kylo was Winter Soldier'ed into committing the Jedi Temple massacre possibly? Maybe this was the first time that the WS switch was flicked "on" by Snoke?

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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by vaderito on Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:52 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
Also, Winter Soldier!Kylo fits into Enchanted Prince narrative.
@vaderito

It definitely would. It would also firmly establish Rey as the hero.

Most of the redemption scenarios in our theories have focused on Kylo. The choice to redeem himself needs to be his, and therefore the most psychologically interesting journey - the journey to atone and to prove himself worthy - would be his.

But if he is a prince under an evil spell, it isn't really a story of redemption anymore, and therefore Rey's role would be more as an active heroic rescuer, not as an inspiration for redemption.

This is kind of what I meant in the other thread - hard to say where the story is headed when we don't yet know what the story is about. Is it a story of redemption (fallen!Kylo), is it a story of rescue (prince-under-an-evil-spell!Kylo), is it a story of recovery from a metaphorical mental illness (insanity-defence!Kylo), or is it a story of hidden heroism (double-agent-Snape!Kylo)? Or some other kind of story I can't guess yet.
@Darth Dingbat

Probably the mix of Redemption and Prince. he will feel that he should redeem himself. She will feel that he's the Prince that needs to be rescued. In both cases it's love that a) redeems and b) breaks the spell. Han's love opened a crack but Reylo love will finish the task.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:07 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
Also, Winter Soldier!Kylo fits into Enchanted Prince narrative.
@vaderito

It definitely would. It would also firmly establish Rey as the hero.

Most of the redemption scenarios in our theories have focused on Kylo. The choice to redeem himself needs to be his, and therefore the most psychologically interesting journey - the journey to atone and to prove himself worthy - would be his.

But if he is a prince under an evil spell, it isn't really a story of redemption anymore, and therefore Rey's role would be more as an active heroic rescuer, not as an inspiration for redemption.

This is kind of what I meant in the other thread - hard to say where the story is headed when we don't yet know what the story is about. Is it a story of redemption (fallen!Kylo), is it a story of rescue (prince-under-an-evil-spell!Kylo), is it a story of recovery from a metaphorical mental illness (insanity-defence!Kylo), or is it a story of hidden heroism (double-agent-Snape!Kylo)? Or some other kind of story I can't guess yet.
@Darth Dingbat

Probably the mix of Redemption and Prince. he will feel that he should redeem himself. She will feel that he's the Prince that needs to be rescued. In both cases it's love that a) redeems and b) breaks the spell. Han's love opened a crack but Reylo love will finish the task.
@vaderito

A while back when the Manchurian! Kylo theory was first being floated, someone (I forget who) pointed out that Finn seemed to snap out of his programming back when Slips touched his helmet and left the bloody handprint. If Han touching Kylo's face started to break his programming, do we think that we might get a scene in VIII where someone touches Rey's face, and she starts to remember the circumstances around her being left on Jakku?



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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by vaderito on Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:12 pm

@ISeeAnIsland Rey remembers. She remembers her family and the ship. I guess nobody in the movie asked her about their names so she didn't have to tell them. Very Happy

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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ZioRen on Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:22 pm

I still really, really can't picture Manchurian Candidate Kylo, even if I actually like that plotline. I can't shake Pablo's tweets about Kylo, his awfulness, and his personal accountability. If this is really the route they're taking, then Pablo must be straight up misdirecting fans. I don't think he's done that before.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by panki on Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:49 pm

I wonder.... maybe they never anticipated the level of fan anger against Kylo for killing Han (Han was originally supposed to get away at the end of the story) and they modified the plotline a bit at a later date to do some damage control?

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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:57 pm

@panki wrote:I wonder.... maybe they never anticipated the level of fan anger against Kylo for killing Han (Han was originally supposed to get away at the end of the story) and they modified the plotline a bit at a later date to do some damage control?
@panki

That would be a huge change at a very late date, though...

But of course it's possible that the Mystery Box allowed them some leeway to explore different potential storylines. I'm pretty sure Rian was given a lot of choice in how to get from point A to point B. I just don't think changes of this magnitude could have been implemented between TFA's release and February.

And considering the glacial pace of the publishing world, the Aftermath novels would have been plotted long before, and Life Debt written before TFA was released.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by snufkin on Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:06 pm

@panki - wasn't the original premise that Luke would accidentally kill Han in a conflict with Ben? That seems like it would provoke fans even more.

Somebody on here floated the scenario that whatever bad thing went down with Luke's new training class was engineered by Snoke to set Ben up as the culprit and then snatch him via kidnapping. The assumption most of the audience has jumped too is that having "too much Vader" in him means it's exactly like what happened in the 3rd movie. Considering that all of the bad things that happened was engineered by somebody who knew the family history, maybe that's also a deliberate misdirect? Make a similar event take place and set him up to appear to be the culprit, just like how his grandfather was. Especially when Ben's been modeled into trying to be a proxy (or a ghola for my fellow Dune nerds) for the same grandfather.

Also the whole lines about his former self being "weak and foolish" and "the Supreme Leader is wise" sound like somebody who's repeating beliefs that have been drilled into him.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:11 pm

@ZioRen wrote:I still really, really can't picture Manchurian Candidate Kylo, even if I actually like that plotline. I can't shake Pablo's tweets about Kylo, his awfulness, and his personal accountability. If this is really the route they're taking, then Pablo must be straight up misdirecting fans. I don't think he's done that before.
@ZioRen

Yeah, that's a big issue that I have with a Manchurian Candidate-style plot line. Pablo has been pretty consistent about stressing personal accountability.

Perhaps there's some sort of a hybrid scenario going on where Kylo has made some bad choices, but in other cases, he was Winter Soldiered. Although that seems awfully convoluted to explain...

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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ZioRen on Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:52 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I still really, really can't picture Manchurian Candidate Kylo, even if I actually like that plotline. I can't shake Pablo's tweets about Kylo, his awfulness, and his personal accountability. If this is really the route they're taking, then Pablo must be straight up misdirecting fans. I don't think he's done that before.
@ZioRen

Yeah, that's a big issue that I have with a Manchurian Candidate-style plot line. Pablo has been pretty consistent about stressing personal accountability.

Perhaps there's some sort of a hybrid scenario going on where Kylo has made some bad choices, but in other cases, he was Winter Soldiered. Although that seems awfully convoluted to explain...
@ISeeAnIsland

Honestly, thinking about Pablo's tweets again makes me wonder if Snoke actually brainwashed or manipulated Kylo (as in getting into his head) in any way at all in his childhood, etc. I'm starting to think that didn't happen. Kylo's backstory and motivations are a headache to speculate. Something had to have caused this and it had to have been big and very personally affecting (and I'm not buying that just learning he was Vader's grandson could do this), considering his childhood seemed decent and his parents loved him. I just have no clue what that could be anymore.

If any part of him is Winter Soldiered, then some degree of personal accountability still isn't there. I agree that it'd be way convoluted!
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by snufkin on Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:18 pm

Why does the brainwashed and hubris/entitlement scenarios need to be mutually exclusive? He was have been an over-entitled jerk, but why couldn't Snoke have pulled some brainwashing on him after his defection (or if it was a kidnapping) so that he's got Stockholm Syndrome? The Patty Hearst case is a classic example, including happening in the same community that Lucas Film is based in.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by panki on Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:21 pm

They could still avoid the manchurian candidate route altogether but they've left too many clues pointing to it to completely ignore it...

Spoiler:
disoriented assassins with no recall....Adea's seduction and her trying to kill her boss while talking like a brainwashed person.....Brentin Wexley's personality change, looking blank, taking a walk to some place where someone hands him a gun to kill Mon Mothma.....Brentin almost killing his son on a walkway.... Brentin almost killing Mon Mothma if not for the intervention of his wife and her realizing that someone has made him a puppet against his will.....Yupe Tashu talking like a madman, making weird symbols on walls and someone communicating to him in side his head, telling him what to convey to others and also about the plan.....now I'm even wondering about Arliz Hadrassian's killing of Tai-lin and subsequent suicide in Bloodline.

@snufkin wrote:Why does the brainwashed and hubris/entitlement scenarios need to be mutually exclusive? He was have been an over-entitled jerk, but why couldn't Snoke have pulled some brainwashing on him after his defection (or if it was a kidnapping) so that he's got Stockholm Syndrome? The Patty Hearst case is a classic example, including happening in the same community that Lucas Film is based in.
@snufkin

I agree with this... for all we know Kylo was a Vader fan boy and a self entitled brat who joined the acolytes to find out about his grandfather, enjoyed the adulation he got because of his heritage, did some regrettable things on the way but also is a victim of some sort of brainwashing by Snoke... the answer could lie somewhere in the middle....Kylo sounded like a lost kid with regrets on that walkway... he sounded like he just wanted to go home and I think Snoke did get into his head to take that option off the table... it is a little like that scene from The Adventures of Pinocchio (the book) where he has lots of fun in the Land of Toys with other kids but they all get turned into donkeys...and he only recovers his old form when his owner drowns him.

Even the Disney version of this part of the story gave me nightmares as a kid... Shocked






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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:22 pm

@vaderito wrote:@ISeeAnIsland Rey remembers. She remembers her family and the ship. I guess nobody in the movie asked her about their names so she didn't have to tell them. Very Happy

@vaderito

But we don't know if those memories are accurate. Pablo has alluded to her memories surrounding her abandonment possibly being unreliable.
@ZioRen wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland

Honestly, thinking about Pablo's tweets again makes me wonder if Snoke actually brainwashed or manipulated Kylo (as in getting into his head) in any way at all in his childhood, etc. I'm starting to think that didn't happen. Kylo's backstory and motivations are a headache to speculate. Something had to have caused this and it had to have been big and very personally affecting (and I'm not buying that just learning he was Vader's grandson could do this), considering his childhood seemed decent and his parents loved him. I just have no clue what that could be anymore.

If any part of him is Winter Soldiered, then some degree of personal accountability still isn't there. I agree that it'd be way convoluted!
@ZioRen

I've wondered the same thing. We know that Snoke was "there" from the beginning (if the lines cut from TFA and JJ's interview are to be believed), but that could just mean that Snoke was watching him and waiting to make his move. It doesn't necessarily mean that Snoke was actively manipulating him as a child.

Granted, Snoke might very well have been "in his head" at a young age, but at this point, I feel like we have limited evidence and that the evidence we have is a bit contradictory.

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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ZioRen on Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:27 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@vaderito wrote:@ISeeAnIsland Rey remembers. She remembers her family and the ship. I guess nobody in the movie asked her about their names so she didn't have to tell them. Very Happy

@vaderito

But we don't know if those memories are accurate. Pablo has alluded to her memories surrounding her abandonment possibly being unreliable.
@ZioRen wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland

Honestly, thinking about Pablo's tweets again makes me wonder if Snoke actually brainwashed or manipulated Kylo (as in getting into his head) in any way at all in his childhood, etc. I'm starting to think that didn't happen. Kylo's backstory and motivations are a headache to speculate. Something had to have caused this and it had to have been big and very personally affecting (and I'm not buying that just learning he was Vader's grandson could do this), considering his childhood seemed decent and his parents loved him. I just have no clue what that could be anymore.

If any part of him is Winter Soldiered, then some degree of personal accountability still isn't there. I agree that it'd be way convoluted!
@ZioRen

I've wondered the same thing. We know that Snoke was "there" from the beginning (if the lines cut from TFA and JJ's interview are to be believed), but that could just mean that Snoke was watching him and waiting to make his move. It doesn't necessarily mean that Snoke was actively manipulating him as a child.

Granted, Snoke might very well have been "in his head" at a young age, but at this point, I feel like we have limited evidence and that the evidence we have is a bit contradictory.
@ISeeAnIsland

This is what I'm starting to think. And it majorly bums me out, because I'm really attached to manipulated Kylo who had Snoke in his head to some degree. Now I'm just wondering how they're going to make his fall make any sense beyond "he just sucks as a person". There's lots of ways they could do that, obviously, but it's starting to seem like the easiest and most effective one is all but off the table. The GA is going to need a reason to understand why a Skywalker would go dark, or to want or care about Kylo's redemption if that's the path they're taking.

@snufkin wrote:Why does the brainwashed and hubris/entitlement scenarios need to be mutually exclusive? He was have been an over-entitled jerk, but why couldn't Snoke have pulled some brainwashing on him after his defection (or if it was a kidnapping) so that he's got Stockholm Syndrome? The Patty Hearst case is a classic example, including happening in the same community that Lucas Film is based in.
@snufkin

I think this would have worked if Kylo really had been 15 when he defected. It loses a major amount of punch now that we know he was an adult.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by snufkin on Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:08 pm

We're just going to have to agree to disagree because I don't see how it makes a difference for the age to be 23 instead of a teenager. Thinking that it happened when he was 15 wasn't even implied in the screenplay or novels, it was reverse engineered by people convinced he was responsible for Rey's abandonment on Jakku. But 23 year olds are still plenty immature and volatile enough to think that they know best. Han called him a boy and that's spoken as a memory of the last time he saw him in person (before the confrontation when he's shocked to how he's matured into a grown man).

tl;dr I'm in agreement with @panki, the answer may be somewhere in between. Other example from literature I've thought might parallel his character is Edmund Penvasie in the Narnia books, "Even a traitor may mend. I have known one who did."
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:18 pm

@snufkin wrote:We're just going to have to agree to disagree because I don't see how it makes a difference for the age to be 23 instead of a teenager. Thinking that it happened when he was 15 wasn't even implied in the screenplay or novels, it was reverse engineered by people convinced he was responsible for Rey's abandonment on Jakku. But 23 year olds are still plenty immature and volatile enough to think that they know best. Han called him a boy and that's spoken as a memory of the last time he saw him in person (before the confrontation when he's shocked to how he's matured into a grown man).

tl;dr I'm in agreement with @panki, the answer may be somewhere in between. Other example from literature I've thought might parallel his character is Edmund Penvasie in the Narnia books, "Even a traitor may mend. I have known one who did."
@snufkin

Re: the bolded, not really - I never once thought Kylo had left Rey on Jakku, but I still walked out of TFA with the impression that he'd been young when Leia and Han lost him. I didn't think specifically 15, but an adolescent anyway.
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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:31 pm

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@snufkin wrote:We're just going to have to agree to disagree because I don't see how it makes a difference for the age to be 23 instead of a teenager. Thinking that it happened when he was 15 wasn't even implied in the screenplay or novels, it was reverse engineered by people convinced he was responsible for Rey's abandonment on Jakku. But 23 year olds are still plenty immature and volatile enough to think that they know best. Han called him a boy and that's spoken as a memory of the last time he saw him in person (before the confrontation when he's shocked to how he's matured into a grown man).

tl;dr I'm in agreement with @panki, the answer may be somewhere in between. Other example from literature I've thought might parallel his character is Edmund Penvasie in the Narnia books, "Even a traitor may mend. I have known one who did."
@snufkin

Re: the bolded, not really - I never once thought Kylo had left Rey on Jakku, but I still walked out of TFA with the impression that he'd been young when Leia and Han lost him. I didn't think specifically 15, but an adolescent anyway.
@Darth Dingbat

I'd gotten the impression that he'd turned as an adolescent, as well. I think that I thought that because emotionally, Kylo acted like an adolescent. Mentally, I filled in the blanks and assumed that his emotional development stopped when he'd turned, and that's why we were seeing him act like a bratty teenager in some scenes.

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Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Slade on Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:21 pm

Hmmm...maybe we should make a distinction between "brainwashing" (i.e. extreme indoctrination) and trauma bonding.  If Kylo suffers from the latter, he could still be conflicted and all that, and by definition the way someone gets "trauma bonded" is through intermittent abuse and affection (from the same person/people).  A trauma bond with Snoke would fit with what we have already discussed about them, and it could account for Kylo doing stuff he really doesn't wanna, but it's still him doing it, not some entity who has taken over his mind.

http://www.healing-arts.org/healing_trauma_therapy/traumabonding-traumaticbonds.htm

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