"The Empire Needs Children"

Page 4 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 14 Jul - 1:49

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I still really, really can't picture Manchurian Candidate Kylo, even if I actually like that plotline. I can't shake Pablo's tweets about Kylo, his awfulness, and his personal accountability. If this is really the route they're taking, then Pablo must be straight up misdirecting fans. I don't think he's done that before.
@ZioRen

Yeah, that's a big issue that I have with a Manchurian Candidate-style plot line. Pablo has been pretty consistent about stressing personal accountability.

Perhaps there's some sort of a hybrid scenario going on where Kylo has made some bad choices, but in other cases, he was Winter Soldiered. Although that seems awfully convoluted to explain...
@ISeeAnIsland

Actually it wouldn't have to be.
Spoiler:
The Manchurian people in the book go "in and out". It could be a matter of triggering. There was a way to trigger those people.

I also liked your idea about someone touching Rey's face. I think she knows some stuff, but PH did say her memories were unreliable to some extent. The book brought up a lot of questions in my mind about how and why she ends up on Jakku. I agree with @snufkin that it makes sense for all three to have been mentally messed with, and for all three to have a trigger moment that "breaks" the mindset. They may have to have several of those moments actually.

On PH and Kylo and accountability, I am almost positive that PH said "Maybe Kylo was just a s***" in response to people complaining about Han and Leia being bad parents. Kylo would also have to take accountability for whatever he did in a full agency state ... PH saying that doesn't preclude the possibility that he had some non-full-agency states. PH also admitted to not being a fan of the tortured villain. He likes Palpatine and Jabba. In addition, he has made it clear that it was hard for Kylo to kill Han (indicating that Kylo is absolutely capable of compassion) and that Ben was separated from his family for a long time. Kylo is the biggest ball of secrets in the movies. PH has a fine line to walk with him *and* he is performing in a kind of PR role. I don't think he's misleading, but he might be covering his a** with a variety of audiences. In other words, he doesn't want to alienate people ... unless they think Snoke is PLageius and such, because those lines are dead ends.
avatar
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 3921
Likes : 17893
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 14 Jul - 2:03

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I still really, really can't picture Manchurian Candidate Kylo, even if I actually like that plotline. I can't shake Pablo's tweets about Kylo, his awfulness, and his personal accountability. If this is really the route they're taking, then Pablo must be straight up misdirecting fans. I don't think he's done that before.
@ZioRen

Yeah, that's a big issue that I have with a Manchurian Candidate-style plot line. Pablo has been pretty consistent about stressing personal accountability.

Perhaps there's some sort of a hybrid scenario going on where Kylo has made some bad choices, but in other cases, he was Winter Soldiered. Although that seems awfully convoluted to explain...
@ISeeAnIsland

Actually it wouldn't have to be.
Spoiler:
The Manchurian people in the book go "in and out". It could be a matter of triggering. There was a way to trigger those people.

I also liked your idea about someone touching Rey's face. I think she knows some stuff, but PH did say her memories were unreliable to some extent. The book brought up a lot of questions in my mind about how and why she ends up on Jakku. I agree with @snufkin that it makes sense for all three to have been mentally messed with, and for all three to have a trigger moment that "breaks" the mindset. They may have to have several of those moments actually.

On PH and Kylo and accountability, I am almost positive that PH said "Maybe Kylo was just a s***" in response to people complaining about Han and Leia being bad parents. Kylo would also have to take accountability for whatever he did in a full agency state ... PH saying that doesn't preclude the possibility that he had some non-full-agency states. PH also admitted to not being a fan of the tortured villain. He likes Palpatine and Jabba. In addition, he has made it clear that it was hard for Kylo to kill Han (indicating that Kylo is absolutely capable of compassion) and that Ben was separated from his family for a long time. Kylo is the biggest ball of secrets in the movies. PH has a fine line to walk with him *and* he is performing in a kind of PR role. I don't think he's misleading, but he might be covering his a** with a variety of audiences. In other words, he doesn't want to alienate people ... unless they think Snoke is PLageius and such, because those lines are dead ends.
@SoloSideCousin

That would work with the triggers. Especially since it seemed like the darkness was what triggered Kylo to kill Han, when moments before, he did look like he might go home with him.

Re: the bolded... We've got a scene were Kylo is going in for a kiss with Rey. He tenderly touches her cheek, and BOOM! The memory of what really happened to her parents is triggered. There's the "almost kiss". Tire langue L
avatar
ISeeAnIsland
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 4822
Likes : 25318
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Localisation : Seattle, WA

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 14 Jul - 2:04

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@snufkin wrote:We're just going to have to agree to disagree because I don't see how it makes a difference for the age to be 23 instead of a teenager. Thinking that it happened when he was 15 wasn't even implied in the screenplay or novels, it was reverse engineered by people convinced he was responsible for Rey's abandonment on Jakku. But 23 year olds are still plenty immature and volatile enough to think that they know best. Han called him a boy and that's spoken as a memory of the last time he saw him in person (before the confrontation when he's shocked to how he's matured into a grown man).  

tl;dr I'm in agreement with @panki, the answer may be somewhere in between. Other example from literature I've thought might parallel his character is Edmund Penvasie in the Narnia books, "Even a traitor may mend. I have known one who did."
@snufkin

Re: the bolded, not really - I never once thought Kylo had left Rey on Jakku, but I still walked out of TFA with the impression that he'd been young when Leia and Han lost him. I didn't think specifically 15, but an adolescent anyway.
@Darth Dingbat

I'd gotten the impression that he'd turned as an adolescent, as well. I think that I thought that because emotionally, Kylo acted like an adolescent. Mentally, I filled in the blanks and assumed that his emotional development stopped when he'd turned, and that's why we were seeing him act like a bratty teenager in some scenes.
@ISeeAnIsland

@"Zio Ren", @snufkin, @panki, @vaderito, @slade

I have read the book, and I am more convinced then ever that the whole "Snoke is in his head" thing is going to happen.  There is evil "messing with people's heads" all over the book.

I wrote this in the Aftermath thread which addresses a lot of this and I didn't want to duplicate post.  It mentions some book things in it.

http://reylo.skyforum.net/t313p275-aftermath-life-debt-by-chuck-wending#64549

Also, @panki, regarding your list to "people's brains getting messed with" I'd like to add a couple of more things.
Spoiler:
(1) The way those TIE fighters kept flying one right after the other into that wall like they were drones ... I was actually shocked that part got in the book because it was so absolutely reminiscent of 9/11.  (2) The insane messianic zeal of the Acolytes of the Beyond.  They are like some kind of ISIS for Vader.  I was really shocked that got in as well.  Actually there is an incredible amount of extremely dark stuff in this book.  We're not in ROTJ land anymore.
 It's like there is an evil miasma meddling with everything.
avatar
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 3921
Likes : 17893
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 14 Jul - 2:07

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I still really, really can't picture Manchurian Candidate Kylo, even if I actually like that plotline. I can't shake Pablo's tweets about Kylo, his awfulness, and his personal accountability. If this is really the route they're taking, then Pablo must be straight up misdirecting fans. I don't think he's done that before.
@ZioRen

Yeah, that's a big issue that I have with a Manchurian Candidate-style plot line. Pablo has been pretty consistent about stressing personal accountability.

Perhaps there's some sort of a hybrid scenario going on where Kylo has made some bad choices, but in other cases, he was Winter Soldiered. Although that seems awfully convoluted to explain...
@ISeeAnIsland

Actually it wouldn't have to be.
Spoiler:
The Manchurian people in the book go "in and out". It could be a matter of triggering. There was a way to trigger those people.

I also liked your idea about someone touching Rey's face. I think she knows some stuff, but PH did say her memories were unreliable to some extent. The book brought up a lot of questions in my mind about how and why she ends up on Jakku. I agree with @snufkin that it makes sense for all three to have been mentally messed with, and for all three to have a trigger moment that "breaks" the mindset. They may have to have several of those moments actually.

On PH and Kylo and accountability, I am almost positive that PH said "Maybe Kylo was just a s***" in response to people complaining about Han and Leia being bad parents. Kylo would also have to take accountability for whatever he did in a full agency state ... PH saying that doesn't preclude the possibility that he had some non-full-agency states. PH also admitted to not being a fan of the tortured villain. He likes Palpatine and Jabba. In addition, he has made it clear that it was hard for Kylo to kill Han (indicating that Kylo is absolutely capable of compassion) and that Ben was separated from his family for a long time. Kylo is the biggest ball of secrets in the movies. PH has a fine line to walk with him *and* he is performing in a kind of PR role. I don't think he's misleading, but he might be covering his a** with a variety of audiences. In other words, he doesn't want to alienate people ... unless they think Snoke is PLageius and such, because those lines are dead ends.
@SoloSideCousin

That would work with the triggers. Especially since it seemed like the darkness was what triggered Kylo to kill Han, when moments before, he did look like he might go home with him.

Re: the bolded... We've got a scene were Kylo is going in for a kiss with Rey. He tenderly touches her cheek, and BOOM! The memory of what really happened to her parents is triggered. There's the "almost kiss". Tire langue L
@ISeeAnIsland

YES!!!!!!!!!!! Who else is going to touch her face so intimately? She's not the type of woman where people could think they could touch her willy-nilly. Also, that would provide a beautiful moment where he could support her while it all hits her ... and he will *get it* because he's had things hit him like that before.
avatar
SoloSideCousin
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 3921
Likes : 17893
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ZioRen on Thu 14 Jul - 2:36

@snufkin wrote:We're just going to have to agree to disagree because I don't see how it makes a difference for the age to be 23 instead of a teenager. Thinking that it happened when he was 15 wasn't even implied in the screenplay or novels, it was reverse engineered by people convinced he was responsible for Rey's abandonment on Jakku. But 23 year olds are still plenty immature and volatile enough to think that they know best. Han called him a boy and that's spoken as a memory of the last time he saw him in person (before the confrontation when he's shocked to how he's matured into a grown man).  

tl;dr I'm in agreement with @panki, the answer may be somewhere in between. Other example from literature I've thought might parallel his character is Edmund Penvasie in the Narnia books, "Even a traitor may mend. I have known one who did."
@snufkin

What I'm saying is that if the brainwashing only came after he defected, that still doesn't make him sympathetic because he already did horrible things as a fully aware adult man.

I'm just going to hold onto hope that some kind of childhood manipulation happened to make all of this make sense. Pablo's tweets still make me think Manchurian candidate is an impossibility, though. We'll have to see how it plays out!
avatar
ZioRen
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1792
Likes : 11655
Date d'inscription : 2016-05-28

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by panki on Thu 14 Jul - 3:15

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@snufkin wrote:We're just going to have to agree to disagree because I don't see how it makes a difference for the age to be 23 instead of a teenager. Thinking that it happened when he was 15 wasn't even implied in the screenplay or novels, it was reverse engineered by people convinced he was responsible for Rey's abandonment on Jakku. But 23 year olds are still plenty immature and volatile enough to think that they know best. Han called him a boy and that's spoken as a memory of the last time he saw him in person (before the confrontation when he's shocked to how he's matured into a grown man).  

tl;dr I'm in agreement with @panki, the answer may be somewhere in between. Other example from literature I've thought might parallel his character is Edmund Penvasie in the Narnia books, "Even a traitor may mend. I have known one who did."
@snufkin

Re: the bolded, not really - I never once thought Kylo had left Rey on Jakku, but I still walked out of TFA with the impression that he'd been young when Leia and Han lost him. I didn't think specifically 15, but an adolescent anyway.
@Darth Dingbat

I'd gotten the impression that he'd turned as an adolescent, as well. I think that I thought that because emotionally, Kylo acted like an adolescent. Mentally, I filled in the blanks and assumed that his emotional development stopped when he'd turned, and that's why we were seeing him act like a bratty teenager in some scenes.
@ISeeAnIsland

@"Zio Ren", @snufkin, @panki, @vaderito, @slade

I have read the book, and I am more convinced then ever that the whole "Snoke is in his head" thing is going to happen.  There is evil "messing with people's heads" all over the book.

I wrote this in the Aftermath thread which addresses a lot of this and I didn't want to duplicate post.  It mentions some book things in it.

http://reylo.skyforum.net/t313p275-aftermath-life-debt-by-chuck-wending#64549

Also, @panki, regarding your list to "people's brains getting messed with" I'd like to add a couple of more things.
Spoiler:
(1) The way those TIE fighters kept flying one right after the other into that wall like they were drones ... I was actually shocked that part got in the book because it was so absolutely reminiscent of 9/11.  (2) The insane messianic zeal of the Acolytes of the Beyond.  They are like some kind of ISIS for Vader.  I was really shocked that got in as well.  Actually there is an incredible amount of extremely dark stuff in this book.  We're not in ROTJ land anymore.
 It's like there is an evil miasma meddling with everything.
@SoloSideCousin

Am glad you added those points....those acolytoes of the beyond are a really scary bunch....I know this might not be a perfect comparison but a lot of Brentin Wexley's behavior and his relationship with his wife and son reminded me of Nicholas Brody in Homeland...I wonder if Chuck Wendig subconsciously channeled the early seasons of that show.

_________________


We are the spark, that’ll light the fire, that’ll burn the First Order down.
avatar
panki
Moderator

Messages : 3326
Likes : 12374
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25

http://starwarstheorist.tumblr.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 14 Jul - 7:28

One thing to take into account is both JJ Abrams and Adam Driver have said that Kylo's childhood wasn't very happy - his parents may have loved him but they weren't there for him. Regarding Pablo and his tweets, he's actually said that he doesn't like 'damaged' sympathetic villains, he likes them to be straight up bad guys, like Palpatine and Snoke. I don't know if Pablo has any creative input on the characters, but I'm not taking much of what he says seriously, especially as he seems to have a fondness for 'winding people up' so to say.
avatar
motherofpearl1
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2216
Likes : 9127
Date d'inscription : 2016-07-09

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 14 Jul - 7:35

@motherofpearl1 wrote:One thing to take into account is both JJ Abrams and Adam Driver have said that Kylo's childhood wasn't very happy - his parents may have loved him but they weren't there for him. Regarding Pablo and his tweets, he's actually said that he doesn't like 'damaged' sympathetic villains, he likes them to be straight up bad guys, like Palpatine and Snoke. I don't know if Pablo has any creative input on the characters, but I'm not taking much of what he says seriously, especially as he seems to have a fondness for 'winding people up' so to say.
@motherofpearl1
I think a lot of his reputation as a "troll" is really unfair because as far as I can see he's always told the truth. He answers questions on his own free time. He likes to interact with fans, but I've never found that he does it to be a jerk. Fact is Kylo is a hard topic. Everything regarding him is a potential spoiler, and he gets basically harassed with questions about the character from all sides. How can he take any stance right now other than "Kylo is a villain, he's a fallen Jedi, he feels compassion but is still accountable for his actions, his redemption would be a choice, etc." All of that is true from a certain perspective. The story has not been told yet, and that's the main thing he'll say on the matter.

Pablo didn't create Kylo or any of the new characters. He's a member of the story group that helps keep the canon in line, so it appears as though he works more with that than he does actual writing.
avatar
FrolickingFizzgig
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 3541
Likes : 30681
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-25
Age : 23
Localisation : Canada

http://frolickingfizzgig.tumblr.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 14 Jul - 8:47

As I've said earlier they are waiting for a 'big reveal' regarding Rey and Kylo's history, so everyone is having to avoid any direct clues as to their backstories.
My personal take on Kylo is that he started as a lonely kid, very aware of the problems in his parents' relationship, who became withdrawn as his powers manifested and his parents weren't around to help him out. Snoke may have been in his head at this time, or not, but at some time he started turning him against his family, something which worsened when he was sent to Luke - he probably saw it as abandonment.

Maybe the discovery of who his grandfather was caused his fellow students to turn against him, maybe not, but something caused him to turn his back on his heritage and join Snoke and the First Order - which is probably when the real 'programming' began. This was when Ben Solo became Kylo Ren.

Whatever, no one becomes mentally ill as a result of following the wrong politics - and it's been repeatedly stated that Ren is coded as mentally ill.
avatar
motherofpearl1
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 2216
Likes : 9127
Date d'inscription : 2016-07-09

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Darth Dementor on Mon 18 Jul - 1:46

Ok reading this thread is making lean towards Rey's parents were dark siders. And specifically with the Empire or FO. It fits with the narrative of all three leads had their childhood stolen or tainted by the Dark Side.

_________________
avatar
Darth Dementor
Moderator

Messages : 976
Likes : 4387
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by guardienne on Mon 18 Jul - 19:35

@Slade wrote:

What is Winter Soldier?
@Slade

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_America:_The_Winter_Soldier - not sure how it applies to kylo, haven't seen the movie.

it was interesting my mum told me a story about the weekend about the GDR government taking on refugee children from namibia on the 70s to train them as elite socialists, i.e. help them make namibia socialist (i don't know much about namibian history so not sure what happened to them but i assume they wanted to achieve independence at some stage.)

so it wasn't a breeding program à la Lebensborn, it was an indoctrination program, the children were msotly kept together but they were allowed to speak to their parents etc.

what's interesting is that of course they would have stood out being black children or being black at all. despite the reassurance of solidarity with ALL people, but mostly socialist people, foreigners of any kind were really kept separate from the natives in the GDR. and after the wall came down, those children were pretty much abandoned and shipped off back to namibia, having spent very little of their lives there and not knowing the language anymore.

avatar
guardienne
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 3250
Likes : 6483
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Mon 18 Jul - 21:00

@Slade wrote:Hmmm...maybe we should make a distinction between "brainwashing" (i.e. extreme indoctrination) and trauma bonding.  If Kylo suffers from the latter, he could still be conflicted and all that, and by definition the way someone gets "trauma bonded" is through intermittent abuse and affection (from the same person/people).  A trauma bond with Snoke would fit with what we have already discussed about them, and it could account for Kylo doing stuff he really doesn't wanna, but it's still him doing it, not some entity who has taken over his mind.

http://www.healing-arts.org/healing_trauma_therapy/traumabonding-traumaticbonds.htm

What is Winter Soldier?
@Slade

The Winter Soldier is a character from the Marvel Universe. He and a few other elite soldiers were part of a secret Soviet soldier project to create "the ultimate weapon". They were also brainwashed to get triggered anytime someone spoke certain words (in the exact order) - then basically they turn into mindless killers with superhuman powers (plus he's got a metal arm). He was also featured in this year's Captain America: Civil War movie, and is actually the reason because of the conflict between Captain America (who is Winter Soldier's friend) and Ironman (who wants to capture him).

He's a poor comparison to Kylo Ren though. Winter Soldier's brainwashing was total, not "just" the influence of a voice in his head or something.

@motherofpearl1 wrote:One thing to take into account is both JJ Abrams and Adam Driver have said that Kylo's childhood wasn't very happy - his parents may have loved him but they weren't there for him. Regarding Pablo and his tweets, he's actually said that he doesn't like 'damaged' sympathetic villains, he likes them to be straight up bad guys, like Palpatine and Snoke. I don't know if Pablo has any creative input on the characters, but I'm not taking much of what he says seriously, especially as he seems to have a fondness for 'winding people up' so to say.

I highly doubt Pablo has much to say regarding character development; besides, he just said what he himself prefers. I don't see the problem with Pablo talking about himself on his own Twitter account, actually he posts a lot personal content between his Star Wars tweets.
avatar
Rimfaxe96
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1055
Likes : 5979
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-27
Age : 21
Localisation : Germany

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by ZenBrainJam on Tue 19 Jul - 4:49

About the 23 years old thing... don't forget that we are in SW, not real life. If Amidala could lead a whole planet at 14, and Leia fight empire at 19, and Rey be alone on Jakku from 5, being immature at 23 is not an option. And the Snoke line "the scavenger resisted YOU?" make me think that control Kylo's mind must be very hard. Maybe this winter something is not always possible and requires a lot of effort from Snoke's part. That would imply that Kylo has agency and a higher goal or some sort of old rust with Luke aka a bunch of valid personal reasons to join FO in the first place. Imo the lost boy and the willingly warrior must exist together and torn him apart in some way.
avatar
ZenBrainJam
Jedi Padawan
Jedi Padawan

Messages : 378
Likes : 1296
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-31

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by guardienne on Wed 20 Jul - 23:35

i really don't think that brainwashing by itself will be a thing. i think kylo *thinks* he cannot leave and accepts that as his fate. snoke will crush him when he's done with him. or whatever the line is.

i know that in the fics people have tried to imagine what having snoke with him led to and that's been interesting to read. but i don't think snoke has a literal hold on him. otherwise the character would lose all agency and that'd kinda collapse my idea of how he struggles with the order of killing his father. if snoke could switch him on and off, there'd be no conflict.

he's desperate for approval and for being stronger and all that stuff, snoke has an emotional hold and he's isolated him presumably. but i don't think he could stop him from walking away like that.

or maybe he could. ugh too many questions.
avatar
guardienne
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 3250
Likes : 6483
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Lily Snape on Thu 21 Jul - 9:08

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I have the feeling we are going to find out something really juicy regarding Kylo in Episode VIII.
Why? Because none of these tie in novels have so far revealed anything about his backstory, or what turned him. Bloodline simply mentions that he was 23, and that Leia believed him to be 'happy' - something Adam and JJ have refuted on film.

Life Debt gives us some more history regarding Poe and Hux, but again, nothing about Kylo - or Rey.
Which gives me the impression that they are waiting for the movies to spring the big reveal! And that it's going to be big!
@motherofpearl1

I think it will either be that he didn't actually kill his classmates, or that they turned on him the way Leia's supporters turned on her after the Vader reveal and that he therefore went dark for fairly understandable reasons. I think Kylo will show up initially seeming like he's gone full Dark, but then will turn out to be more conflicted than ever and will have some sort of sympathetic reveal.

I also think that the movies always stood alone and that you didn't need to have read the books to understand them-- not that I didn't read the books-- and that this supplemental material might not be all the important. So far the most important detail in the new books to me is that Leia had kept her parentage secret even from Ben, and that people went ballistic on her after it. For a kid or very young adult already struggling with an equal propensity for the light and the dark, realizing that Vader is your grandfather might push you over the edge. Especially if you learn this detail from your classmates (maybe already jealous of your relationship with Luke or your abilities?) showing up ready to take you out.
avatar
Lily Snape
Jedi Padawan
Jedi Padawan

Messages : 363
Likes : 1880
Date d'inscription : 2016-04-01

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by Slade on Thu 21 Jul - 9:15

@Lily Snape wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:I have the feeling we are going to find out something really juicy regarding Kylo in Episode VIII.
Why? Because none of these tie in novels have so far revealed anything about his backstory, or what turned him. Bloodline simply mentions that he was 23, and that Leia believed him to be 'happy' - something Adam and JJ have refuted on film.

Life Debt gives us some more history regarding Poe and Hux, but again, nothing about Kylo - or Rey.
Which gives me the impression that they are waiting for the movies to spring the big reveal! And that it's going to be big!
@motherofpearl1

I think it will either be that he didn't actually kill his classmates, or that they turned on him the way Leia's supporters turned on her after the Vader reveal and that he therefore went dark for fairly understandable reasons.  I think Kylo will show up initially seeming like he's gone full Dark, but then will turn out to be more conflicted than ever and will have some sort of sympathetic reveal.  

I also think that the movies always stood alone and that you didn't need to have read the books to understand them-- not that I didn't read the books-- and that this supplemental material might not be all the important.  So far the most important detail in the new books to me is that Leia had kept her parentage secret even from Ben, and that people went ballistic on her after it.  For a kid or very young adult already struggling with an equal propensity for the light and the dark, realizing that Vader is your grandfather might push you over the edge.  Especially if you learn this detail from your classmates (maybe already jealous of your relationship with Luke or your abilities?) showing up ready to take you out.  
@Lily Snape

I wonder how Kylo felt initially when he found out about Vader.  He obviously idolizes him now, but when he first found out?  He could have been scared witless, especially if he put 2+2 together and figured out that was why Han was so leery of his Force abilities.
avatar
Slade
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 930
Likes : 3263
Date d'inscription : 2016-05-25

Back to top Go down

Re: "The Empire Needs Children"

Post by guardienne on Fri 14 Oct - 22:11

some interesting meta on the FO

I think the First Order is more a nod towards the Soviet Union than anything else, with the Resistance standing for the rebel groups funded by the US over the decades (and that never went sour, eh?). Like the US the Republic has this thing going on; “there is a thing outside our borders that we don’t like. We have to get rid of the thing. Now, who can do that for us?”

The whole Outer Rim/unknown territories thing fits too; vast resources, not a very dense population. As does the indoctrination from a very young age (not that the other side isn’t doing the same), and the mysterious overlord with a new kind of philosophy that nobody outside the system is trying to really understand. The Cold War situation preceding the attack on Hosnia is really familiar too…

And; as with the Soviet Union, the opposing side is quick to point out its flaws and horrid sides - without ever being able (or willing) to see the atrocities committed by their own under the nebulous ideal of “freedom”.

I have yet to see any evidence for the First Order actually being Fascist. Either the writers are just using the aesthetics as a shorthand for “these are the bad guys” without actually caring to elaborate further, or they, like many, many people have no understanding of what Fascism actually is, and why it’s bad (and that many of those whys are actually alive and flourishing in their own society - like the idea that some people are just inherently more valuable than other people).

http://sleepyowlet.tumblr.com/post/151415892216/omniscient-pov-can-also-be-biased
avatar
guardienne
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 3250
Likes : 6483
Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

Back to top Go down

Page 4 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum