Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by vaderito on Thu 21 Jul - 1:27

@BastilaBey wrote:That part in the summary above about there being 'no battle of the sexes' because two people would both have equal masculine and feminine within themselves is very interesting, especially when we look at the characterization of Rey and Kylo. Both subvert the gender stereotypes in notable ways, and both exhibiting qualities of the beauty and the beast. They really are two sides of the same coin.
@BastilaBey

Well noticed! I think that these books will prove more valuable for decoding the movie than movies from Rian's list.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by BastilaBey on Thu 21 Jul - 1:33

@vaderito Oh I'm sure of it, just as following the path of the monomyth allows us to dissect TFA and identify Kylo as Rey's animus/lost husband, with her meeting him in the forest at the 'heroine's descent' moment. It's definitely going to be fun to watch all of the movies RJ suggested and speculate on which particular themes and visuals will have an influence, but it's all got to come back to Jung in Star Wars.


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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by vaderito on Thu 21 Jul - 1:36

@BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito Oh I'm sure of it, just as following the path of the monomyth allows us to dissect TFA and identify Kylo as Rey's animus/lost husband, with her meeting him in the forest at the 'heroine's decent' moment. It's definitely going to be fun to watch all of the movies RJ suggested and speculate on which particular themes and visuals will have an influence, but it's all got to come back to Jung in Star Wars.
@BastilaBey

Definitely. And Reylos from this Forum figured out Jung influence way before Rian confirmed it.  Twisted Evil

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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 21 Jul - 1:41

This line from Jung has to be one of my favourites ever:

"A man who is possessed by his shadow is always standing in his own light and falling into his own traps... living below his own level."
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Jul - 1:56

@Slade wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:@slade and @vaderito

I really want that surprise flashback scene with at least Harrison Ford's voice. Rian did say something about leaving the nostalgia behind on the OT 3. They could totally pull something like that off like they did the cliffside scenes. I have always liked Han, still do, but if they have the killing of Han come out of left field they will have done a bad writing job ... because unless someone is really, really messed up, like no conscience messed up, which is absolutely not Kylo, these things don't come out of nowhere, even with a brainwashing force predator around. Something needed to have happened with Han ..  there is some big hurt there.
@SoloSideCousin

Completely agreed.  And I don't think it was just one thing Han did, but I don't know if TPTB will portray that.  (I don't think it was overt physical abuse)
@Slade

No, nothing like that. I think it will revolve around long-term fear of the son once the force sensitivity comes up.  Han has always been suspicious of the force from the time we meet him, and he gets some validation for that fear with how Vader behaves on the dark side and how he was a "good man" per Luke on the light side. That would have to feel very arbitrary and out of control to Han. The kids novel also said Han wished his son was normal. I think all of this would make Han fearful and hypersensitive to every force move the kid makes. I mean, "Will Ben be like Luke or Vader?" And I think Ben could have interpreted that fear/hesitation/suspicion as rejection. And at first he might have tried to win back the father's love, but probably got so emotionally worked up in the process that he did something out of control with the force ... which of course would make Han more wary and that would hurt Ben more, thus making more upset and more out if control and everything would spiral frim there. I also think that Han's inclination to run from things at times would prevent him from dealing with hus child directly in this, so it would just fester from there ... to the point where Han coldly says "He has too much Vader in him" and Ben says "Han Solo."

I think the mention of Snoke hit Han hard because he had blamed Ben's ways in Vader and the force when in fact the son had been left vulnerable to an abuser ... because Han backed away ... so maybe the kid had needed help and Han didn't give it ... That's why he was willing to gi out on the catwalk at the end and looked guilty about it.

If it goes like that, it will be very sad ... If only SW had better family counselors than Maz, lol, because that whole family needed time on someone's couch. :-)
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Jul - 2:07

@vaderito wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito Oh I'm sure of it, just as following the path of the monomyth allows us to dissect TFA and identify Kylo as Rey's animus/lost husband, with her meeting him in the forest at the 'heroine's decent' moment. It's definitely going to be fun to watch all of the movies RJ suggested and speculate on which particular themes and visuals will have an influence, but it's all got to come back to Jung in Star Wars.
@BastilaBey

Definitely. And Reylos from this Forum figured out Jung influence way before Rian confirmed it.  Twisted Evil

Lost husband and found wife.
@vaderito

I've only listened to three sections of the Bly. I'm not particularly convinced of what he has said as an actual psychological treatment tool. It is a little too mystical to me at this point. I guess I am biased towards more towards the evidence/neuroscience-based cognitive behavioral school for that. However, for purposes of Rey and Kylo and their story, it seems very good.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by Slade on Thu 21 Jul - 2:11

And I am for all the world reminded of real life father-son relationships where the father is a big, sports-loving "good ole boy" and the son is a small, introverted geek with his nose in a book, and the father starts out hellbent on forcing his son to "man up" by making him go outside and throw a ball around, but it doesn't work and the father eventually rejects the son.

@SoloSideCousin
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 21 Jul - 2:18

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito Oh I'm sure of it, just as following the path of the monomyth allows us to dissect TFA and identify Kylo as Rey's animus/lost husband, with her meeting him in the forest at the 'heroine's decent' moment. It's definitely going to be fun to watch all of the movies RJ suggested and speculate on which particular themes and visuals will have an influence, but it's all got to come back to Jung in Star Wars.
@BastilaBey

Definitely. And Reylos from this Forum figured out Jung influence way before Rian confirmed it.  Twisted Evil

Lost husband and found wife.
@vaderito

I've only listened to three sections of the Bly. I'm not particularly convinced of what he has said as an actual psychological treatment tool. It is a little too mystical to me at this point. I guess I am biased towards more towards the evidence/neuroscience-based cognitive behavioral school for that. However, for purposes of Rey and Kylo and their story, it seems very good.
@SoloSideCousin
It's all very romantic and magical, as you said. I love it for that reason, and it's extremely "character development" friendly, with each of our characters needing to identify and assimilate their "shadow" in order to become whole. That can apply to individual characters or dynamics between multiple characters, such as a hero/villain dynamic like Rey and Kylo, or even one like Ben/Kylo! It's great stuff. The whole idea is that there is a "light" and "dark" persona that are neither all good nor all bad. They just are. The shadow can't overtake the light; the light can only illuminate the shadow. One who is lost in his shadow blocks his own light.

Psychology has never been  a great love of mine, but this is somewhere between psychology, mythology and philosophy, and I find that very interesting and reassuring. There's a reason so many of pointed out the concept of the human shadow and applied it to Rey and Kylo (long before Rian revealed it as one of his influences. Of course, we've seen this before with Luke and Vader, but I reckon it's going to be a little different this time around.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by Slade on Thu 21 Jul - 2:40

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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 21 Jul - 4:52

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito Oh I'm sure of it, just as following the path of the monomyth allows us to dissect TFA and identify Kylo as Rey's animus/lost husband, with her meeting him in the forest at the 'heroine's decent' moment. It's definitely going to be fun to watch all of the movies RJ suggested and speculate on which particular themes and visuals will have an influence, but it's all got to come back to Jung in Star Wars.
@BastilaBey

Definitely. And Reylos from this Forum figured out Jung influence way before Rian confirmed it.  Twisted Evil

Lost husband and found wife.
@vaderito

I've only listened to three sections of the Bly. I'm not particularly convinced of what he has said as an actual psychological treatment tool. It is a little too mystical to me at this point. I guess I am biased towards more towards the evidence/neuroscience-based cognitive behavioral school for that. However, for purposes of Rey and Kylo and their story, it seems very good.
@SoloSideCousin
It's all very romantic and magical, as you said. I love it for that reason, and it's extremely "character development" friendly, with each of our characters needing to identify and assimilate their "shadow" in order to become whole. That can apply to individual characters or dynamics between multiple characters, such as a hero/villain dynamic like Rey and Kylo, or even one like Ben/Kylo! It's great stuff. The whole idea is that there is a "light" and "dark" persona that are neither all good nor all bad. They just are. The shadow can't overtake the light; the light can only illuminate the shadow. One who is lost in his shadow blocks his own light.

Psychology has never been  a great love of mine, but this is somewhere between psychology, mythology and philosophy, and I find that very interesting and reassuring. There's a reason so many of pointed out the concept of the human shadow and applied it to Rey and Kylo (long before Rian revealed it as one of his influences. Of course, we've seen this before with Luke and Vader, but I reckon it's going to be a little different this time around.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Oh don't get me wrong. I think it's excellent for stories and plots and characters. This is all very good. I completely agree with you. I was also very intrigued by the real life psychology of it because that's an amateur interest of mine due to some of the work I do. I am actually very intrigued by the idea of integrating parts of you that have been silenced because I feel that there must be some truth to that. I am still very intrigued by it on the social science side, but I wanted to hear a stronger argument on that side than what he was providing. I think I need to go straight to Jung himself to make a more informed determination. Thankfully Rian picked a first Jung book for me. : D
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 21 Jul - 5:10

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito Oh I'm sure of it, just as following the path of the monomyth allows us to dissect TFA and identify Kylo as Rey's animus/lost husband, with her meeting him in the forest at the 'heroine's decent' moment. It's definitely going to be fun to watch all of the movies RJ suggested and speculate on which particular themes and visuals will have an influence, but it's all got to come back to Jung in Star Wars.
@BastilaBey

Definitely. And Reylos from this Forum figured out Jung influence way before Rian confirmed it.  Twisted Evil

Lost husband and found wife.
@vaderito

I've only listened to three sections of the Bly. I'm not particularly convinced of what he has said as an actual psychological treatment tool. It is a little too mystical to me at this point. I guess I am biased towards more towards the evidence/neuroscience-based cognitive behavioral school for that. However, for purposes of Rey and Kylo and their story, it seems very good.
@SoloSideCousin
It's all very romantic and magical, as you said. I love it for that reason, and it's extremely "character development" friendly, with each of our characters needing to identify and assimilate their "shadow" in order to become whole. That can apply to individual characters or dynamics between multiple characters, such as a hero/villain dynamic like Rey and Kylo, or even one like Ben/Kylo! It's great stuff. The whole idea is that there is a "light" and "dark" persona that are neither all good nor all bad. They just are. The shadow can't overtake the light; the light can only illuminate the shadow. One who is lost in his shadow blocks his own light.

Psychology has never been  a great love of mine, but this is somewhere between psychology, mythology and philosophy, and I find that very interesting and reassuring. There's a reason so many of pointed out the concept of the human shadow and applied it to Rey and Kylo (long before Rian revealed it as one of his influences. Of course, we've seen this before with Luke and Vader, but I reckon it's going to be a little different this time around.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Oh don't get me wrong. I think it's excellent for stories and plots and characters. This is all very good. I completely agree with you. I was also very intrigued by the real life psychology of it because that's an amateur interest of mine due to some of the work I do. I am actually very intrigued by the idea of integrating parts of you that have been silenced because I feel that there must be some truth to that. I am still very intrigued by it on the social science side, but I wanted to hear a stronger argument on that side than what he was providing. I think I need to go straight to Jung himself to make a more informed determination. Thankfully Rian picked a first Jung book for me. : D
@SoloSideCousin
I agree with you too. It's pretty outdated and it's way too romanticized, but it really is great for character/narrative. It's kind of like that Rudyard Kipling stuff. People can take inspirations from something without agreeing with/condoning every opinion held by the original writer. There is something worthy of praise even in the oldest, most "questionable" works. Not many people agree with Freud, but we still read about him and his theories in children's literature classes! Children's lit, not even psychology. And the application makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by BastilaBey on Wed 24 Aug - 21:05

I found this short article about Robert Bly's work that might serve as a good introduction

http://entertainmentguide.local.com/synopsis-a-little-book-human-shadow-9252.html

The bit about 'wild man vs. savage' reminds me of Ben Solo and his Kylo Ren persona, struggling to accept his capacity for both darkness and light. The writer references Jekyll and Hyde but other examples from Romantic literature that come to mind are Dorian Grey and Frankenstein.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 25 Aug - 13:31

@SoloSideCousin wrote:@slade and @vaderito

I really want that surprise flashback scene with at least Harrison Ford's voice. Rian did say something about leaving the nostalgia behind on the OT 3. They could totally pull something like that off like they did the cliffside scenes. I have always liked Han, still do, but if they have the killing of Han come out of left field they will have done a bad writing job ... because unless someone is really, really messed up, like no conscience messed up, which is absolutely not Kylo, these things don't come out of nowhere, even with a brainwashing force predator around. Something needed to have happened with Han .. there is some big hurt there.
@SoloSideCousin

Yes, I got that impression from the deleted scene aboard the Millennium Falcon. Great bit of 'body language' acting from Driver. And in the junior novel...just what did Han want his his son to forgive him for?

Off topic...that's a nice picture of AD on your avatar; I can't help but think that there isn't any 'beautifying' cinematography here, he may be wearing makeup but not in the same league as movie makeup yet he still looks -a hunk.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 25 Aug - 15:06

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:@slade and @vaderito

I really want that surprise flashback scene with at least Harrison Ford's voice. Rian did say something about leaving the nostalgia behind on the OT 3. They could totally pull something like that off like they did the cliffside scenes. I have always liked Han, still do, but if they have the killing of Han come out of left field they will have done a bad writing job ... because unless someone is really, really messed up, like no conscience messed up, which is absolutely not Kylo, these things don't come out of nowhere, even with a brainwashing force predator around. Something needed to have happened with Han .. there is some big hurt there.
@SoloSideCousin

Yes, I got that impression from the deleted scene aboard the Millennium Falcon. Great bit of 'body language' acting from Driver. And in the junior novel...just what did Han want his his son to forgive him for?

Off topic...that's a nice picture of AD on your avatar; I can't help but think that there isn't any 'beautifying' cinematography here, he may be wearing makeup but not in the same league as movie makeup yet he still looks -a hunk.

@motherofpearl1

Thank you! :-) It's from the Venice Film Festival where he won Best Actor for Hungry Hearts. He looked fantastic at that festival, but at the same time I wanted something a little goofball and real, because he does seem to be a very genuine person, and this pic seemed to work. Thank you again. :-) Now I want to see your avatar, because you're a fantastic poster! :-) I used to be avatar-less for a long time too, but @guardienne nudged me very nicely about it. Very Happy

On Han and Kylo, I completely agree. Driver did such beautiful work in that deleted scene. There was not a bit of anger in it ... the way he slumped, it was all hurt. I don't think Han outright abused him or anything, but Driver knows the story ... there has to be some very tragic hurt there.

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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by vaderito on Thu 25 Aug - 15:11

@SoloSideCousin or maybe it's just that he misses his father badly? Old life? he loved his father which makes the murder far more tragic. When Anakin killed Younglings, he didn't love them. He knew it was wrong cause kids, was likely fond of them, but he didn't love them. But Ben loved Han.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 25 Aug - 15:18

@vaderito wrote:@SoloSideCousin or maybe it's just that he misses his father badly? Old life? he loved his father which makes the murder far more tragic. When Anakin killed Younglings, he didn't love them. He knew it was wrong cause kids, was likely fond of them, but he didn't love them. But Ben loved Han.
@vaderito

Absolutely. He definitely loves his father. It's just interesting that that junior novelization says that Han wanted forgiveness for something. Also, some of Harrison Ford's acting choices could be read as some guilt. We won't know for sure until Episode VIII, but I think some kind of hurt happened with him and his parents. I don't think he would have turned the way he did had it not.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 25 Aug - 15:53

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:@slade and @vaderito

I really want that surprise flashback scene with at least Harrison Ford's voice. Rian did say something about leaving the nostalgia behind on the OT 3. They could totally pull something like that off like they did the cliffside scenes. I have always liked Han, still do, but if they have the killing of Han come out of left field they will have done a bad writing job ... because unless someone is really, really messed up, like no conscience messed up, which is absolutely not Kylo, these things don't come out of nowhere, even with a brainwashing force predator around. Something needed to have happened with Han .. there is some big hurt there.
@SoloSideCousin
Yes, I got that impression from the deleted scene aboard the Millennium Falcon. Great bit of 'body language' acting from Driver. And in the junior novel...just what did Han want his his son to forgive him for?

Off topic...that's a nice picture of AD on your avatar; I can't help but think that there isn't any 'beautifying' cinematography here, he may be wearing makeup but not in the same league as movie makeup yet he still looks -a hunk.

@motherofpearl1

Thank you! :-) It's from the Venice Film Festival where he won Best Actor for Hungry Hearts. He looked fantastic at that festival, but at the same time I wanted something a little goofball and real, because he does seem to be a very genuine person, and this pic seemed to work. Thank you again. :-) Now I want to see your avatar, because you're a fantastic poster! :-) I used to be avatar-less for a long time too, but @guardienne nudged me very nicely about it. Very Happy

On Han and Kylo, I completely agree. Driver did such beautiful work in that deleted scene. There was not a bit of anger in it ... the way he slumped, it was all hurt. I don't think Han outright abused him or anything, but Driver knows the story ... there has to be some very tragic hurt there.

@SoloSideCousin

How do you get an avatar - I'm completely clueless!

Regarding the 'abuse'...there are many kinds of abuse. No way would Han physically hurt his son, but if he was afraid of him, or felt disappointed that they weren't very alike, he may have inadvertently said or did something that hurt him without realising it. I'll always remember how his expression changed from confident to hurt in the scene where he 'looked' into Rey's mind and saw her affection for his dad.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by vaderito on Thu 25 Aug - 15:55

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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 25 Aug - 16:14

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:@slade and @vaderito

I really want that surprise flashback scene with at least Harrison Ford's voice. Rian did say something about leaving the nostalgia behind on the OT 3. They could totally pull something like that off like they did the cliffside scenes. I have always liked Han, still do, but if they have the killing of Han come out of left field they will have done a bad writing job ... because unless someone is really, really messed up, like no conscience messed up, which is absolutely not Kylo, these things don't come out of nowhere, even with a brainwashing force predator around. Something needed to have happened with Han ..  there is some big hurt there.
@SoloSideCousin
Yes, I got that impression from the deleted scene aboard the Millennium Falcon. Great bit of 'body language' acting from Driver. And in the junior novel...just what did Han want his his son to forgive him for?

Off topic...that's a nice picture of AD on your avatar; I can't help but think that there isn't any 'beautifying' cinematography here, he may be wearing makeup but not in the same league as movie makeup yet he still looks -a hunk.
@motherofpearl1

Thank you! :-)  It's from the Venice Film Festival where he won Best Actor for Hungry Hearts.  He looked fantastic at that festival, but at the same time I wanted something a little goofball and real, because he does seem to be a very genuine person, and this pic seemed to work. Thank you again.  :-)  Now I want to see your avatar, because you're a fantastic poster! :-)  I used to be avatar-less for a long time too, but @guardienne nudged me very nicely about it.  Very Happy

On Han and Kylo, I completely agree.  Driver did such beautiful work in that deleted scene.  There was not a bit of anger in it ... the way he slumped, it was all hurt.  I don't think Han outright abused him or anything, but Driver knows the story ... there has to be some very tragic hurt there.

@SoloSideCousin

How do you get an avatar - I'm completely clueless!

Regarding the 'abuse'...there are many kinds of abuse. No way would Han physically hurt his son, but if he was afraid of him, or felt disappointed that they weren't very alike, he may have inadvertently said or did something that hurt him without realising it. I'll always remember how his expression changed from confident to hurt in the scene where he 'looked' into Rey's mind and saw her affection for his dad.
@motherofpearl1

Yes! Adam played that moment beautifully.  He was actually very touched to see her imagining the island and then he sees Han and he gets this, "Oh God help me already!" look on his face.

I also agree that there are all kinds of "abuse" ... or "ways of hurting" that don't qualify as traditional abuse.  Until I see something different, I am a big believer in the theory that Han became alienated from his son when Ben's powers came to light.  Han didn't like or understand the concept of the Force, and he didn't really want to.  In his experience, the Force was crazy bad stuff like Vader force pulling the blaster out of his hand and whatever Luke shared with him about his time with the emperor.  He knew that Anakin was apparently normal at some point and that the Force made him go bad.  So when his kid suddenly started developing powers and probably showed a few dark tendencies, Han probably really couldn't deal with it ... and probably kind of ran away from the problem ... which of course Ben would interpret as fear, shame and lack of love.  I think even without the Force arising in his kid that Han was never going to be father of the year.  I want to see what Aftermath 3 comes up with, but Han showed a lot of ambivalence about being a father in Aftermath 2.  Even after he had completed his mission with Chewie, he was still very tempted to keep running off to have adventures instead of settling down.  Then in Bloodline there are little hints that he didn't know quite what to make of baby Ben and that he hadn't been sure that he ever even wanted a kid ... and the excerpt does not give you any resolution like "But now that I see him I love him, etc." ... It kind of just leaves you hanging.  I definitely think Han loved his son, but I get the sense that he didn't "step up" for his son anywhere as much as he should have ... hence almost requiring that moment on the catwalk ... almost like a "I'm here now, and I'm all the way here," kind of moment.

On the avatar, click on "Profile" at the top.  Then click on "Avatar".  There you will see a space where you can copy and paste a picture of your choice into.  Google whatever interests you and then click "Images" and you should get a lot of choice if you don't have a ready made image that you want to use..  (I'm sorry if that last bit about Google is too pedantic, but I know that I have *big* gaps in my tech knowledge, so I always appreciate the longer explanation. :-)).
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SoloSideCousin
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 25 Aug - 16:37

I think the words Han said in A New Hope sum it up nicely:
'mumbo jumbo'.

He was scared because his son wasn't like him. And let's face it, this happens in real life doesn't it - how many kids have been rejected by their parents because they're gay?
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by CienaRee on Thu 25 Aug - 17:44

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:@slade and @vaderito

I really want that surprise flashback scene with at least Harrison Ford's voice. Rian did say something about leaving the nostalgia behind on the OT 3. They could totally pull something like that off like they did the cliffside scenes. I have always liked Han, still do, but if they have the killing of Han come out of left field they will have done a bad writing job ... because unless someone is really, really messed up, like no conscience messed up, which is absolutely not Kylo, these things don't come out of nowhere, even with a brainwashing force predator around. Something needed to have happened with Han ..  there is some big hurt there.
@SoloSideCousin
Yes, I got that impression from the deleted scene aboard the Millennium Falcon. Great bit of 'body language' acting from Driver. And in the junior novel...just what did Han want his his son to forgive him for?

Off topic...that's a nice picture of AD on your avatar; I can't help but think that there isn't any 'beautifying' cinematography here, he may be wearing makeup but not in the same league as movie makeup yet he still looks -a hunk.
@motherofpearl1

Thank you! :-)  It's from the Venice Film Festival where he won Best Actor for Hungry Hearts.  He looked fantastic at that festival, but at the same time I wanted something a little goofball and real, because he does seem to be a very genuine person, and this pic seemed to work. Thank you again.  :-)  Now I want to see your avatar, because you're a fantastic poster! :-)  I used to be avatar-less for a long time too, but @guardienne nudged me very nicely about it.  Very Happy

On Han and Kylo, I completely agree.  Driver did such beautiful work in that deleted scene.  There was not a bit of anger in it ... the way he slumped, it was all hurt.  I don't think Han outright abused him or anything, but Driver knows the story ... there has to be some very tragic hurt there.

@SoloSideCousin

How do you get an avatar - I'm completely clueless!

Regarding the 'abuse'...there are many kinds of abuse. No way would Han physically hurt his son, but if he was afraid of him, or felt disappointed that they weren't very alike, he may have inadvertently said or did something that hurt him without realising it. I'll always remember how his expression changed from confident to hurt in the scene where he 'looked' into Rey's mind and saw her affection for his dad.
@motherofpearl1

Yes! Adam played that moment beautifully.  He was actually very touched to see her imagining the island and then he sees Han and he gets this, "Oh God help me already!" look on his face.

I also agree that there are all kinds of "abuse" ... or "ways of hurting" that don't qualify as traditional abuse.  Until I see something different, I am a big believer in the theory that Han became alienated from his son when Ben's powers came to light.  Han didn't like or understand the concept of the Force, and he didn't really want to.  In his experience, the Force was crazy bad stuff like Vader force pulling the blaster out of his hand and whatever Luke shared with him about his time with the emperor.  He knew that Anakin was apparently normal at some point and that the Force made him go bad.  So when his kid suddenly started developing powers and probably showed a few dark tendencies, Han probably really couldn't deal with it ... and probably kind of ran away from the problem ... which of course Ben would interpret as fear, shame and lack of love.  I think even without the Force arising in his kid that Han was never going to be father of the year.  I want to see what Aftermath 3 comes up with, but Han showed a lot of ambivalence about being a father in Aftermath 2.  Even after he had completed his mission with Chewie, he was still very tempted to keep running off to have adventures instead of settling down.  Then in Bloodline there are little hints that he didn't know quite what to make of baby Ben and that he hadn't been sure that he ever even wanted a kid ... and the excerpt does not give you any resolution like "But now that I see him I love him, etc." ... It kind of just leaves you hanging.  I definitely think Han loved his son, but I get the sense that he didn't "step up" for his son anywhere as much as he should have ... hence almost requiring that moment on the catwalk ... almost like a "I'm here now, and I'm all the way here," kind of moment.

On the avatar, click on "Profile" at the top.  Then click on "Avatar".  There you will see a space where you can copy and paste a picture of your choice into.  Google whatever interests you and then click "Images" and you should get a lot of choice if you don't have a ready made image that you want to use..  (I'm sorry if that last bit about Google is too pedantic, but I know that I have *big* gaps in my tech knowledge, so I always appreciate the longer explanation. :-)).
@SoloSideCousin

I think that's deffinatly canon.I think it was the junior novalization that mentions Han wishing his son was normal or something like that.There's also Leia saying that she aways hated him leaving which indicates he left and came back which is something Ben most likely witnessed.What's interesting is that Han wasn't suppose to appear in Bloodline but CG wanted to include him because she was a huge Han/Leia fan so I don't think LF wants people to believe Han and Leia had a perfect marriage which we know isn't true but non the less some hardcore Han/Leia/anti Kylo fans seems to have taken as indication that they had a great marriage so Ben had no justifcation to turn to the DS.
Life Debt also forshadows problems in their marriage when han decided to put rescuing Chewie over his pregnant wife justifying it with ''Well,Leia will understand.''Yeah,she does understand eventually but this doesn'' give him the excuse to leave her in such a dangerous time.I understand wanting to help his best fridn but what about working together with leia to accomplish that?The main issue is him beliving that the Rebels need Leia there which is yet another inicator that their marriage will face problems later on.
And honestly it kind of bothers me how Leia doesn't seme to be worried at all that Ben is off with his uncle doing God knows what.I know he's a grown man but seriously.And not thinking about her son at all when she wants to quite being a Senator because she's being more proccupied with going on trips with Han.I also hope she didn't send him off to Luke if he was teaching the old Jedi ways meaning Ben won't be able to marry or start a family of his own because it would be awful.Its hard enough to swallow Han's comment about Kylo having ''too much Vader''in him.
I don't mean to bash Leia or Han but there are these subtle moments that some people might not notice but they're there.

CienaRee
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 25 Aug - 18:08

I've always loved Han and Leia, but I could never see them as parents. They both seemed to be the type who would have worked better as lovers than a married couple - Han wasn't cut out to be a husband and Leia wasn't meant to be a mother - the rebels and later the Resistance were her children.
I see a desperate need for love in their son, although he doesn't realise it himself. He wants a dad, instead he gets Snoke. He sees power as a substitute for being wanted and loved and admired. He feels like a freak. Then he meets Rey, another like him. And for all his babble about a 'teacher', he just wants someone to love him. Most of all someone who'll understand and not judge him. Kylo has been made to feel he's 'bad' because of his heritage and the nature of his powers. Sadly his parents failed to realise that no matter how old their son was he would never stop needing them.

I hope Reylo will happen because it's a relationship based on a mutual need. i think Rey will realise that when Finn falls in love with KMT's character; that she will no longer be the most important perosn in his life. She'll want someone like that. Someone who needs her, and who she needs.
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motherofpearl1
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by Maria Antonietta on Thu 25 Aug - 18:17

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I've always loved Han and Leia, but I could never see them as parents. They both seemed to be the type who would have worked better as lovers than a married couple - Han wasn't cut out to be a husband and Leia wasn't meant to be a mother - the rebels and later the Resistance were her children.
I see a desperate need for love in their son, although he doesn't realise it himself. He wants a dad, instead he gets Snoke. He sees power as a substitute for being wanted and loved and admired. He feels like a freak. Then he meets Rey, another like him. And for all his babble about a 'teacher', he just wants someone to love him. Most of all someone who'll understand and not judge him. Kylo has been made to feel he's 'bad' because of his heritage and the nature of his powers. Sadly his parents failed to realise that no matter how old their son was he would never stop needing them.

I hope Reylo will happen because it's a relationship based on a mutual need. i think Rey will realise that when Finn falls in love with KMT's character; that she will no longer be the most important perosn in his life. She'll want someone like that. Someone who needs her, and who she needs.
@motherofpearl1

yes to all of this!!!!!
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Maria Antonietta
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 25 Aug - 20:43

@CienaRee wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:@slade and @vaderito

I really want that surprise flashback scene with at least Harrison Ford's voice. Rian did say something about leaving the nostalgia behind on the OT 3. They could totally pull something like that off like they did the cliffside scenes. I have always liked Han, still do, but if they have the killing of Han come out of left field they will have done a bad writing job ... because unless someone is really, really messed up, like no conscience messed up, which is absolutely not Kylo, these things don't come out of nowhere, even with a brainwashing force predator around. Something needed to have happened with Han ..  there is some big hurt there.
@SoloSideCousin
Yes, I got that impression from the deleted scene aboard the Millennium Falcon. Great bit of 'body language' acting from Driver. And in the junior novel...just what did Han want his his son to forgive him for?

Off topic...that's a nice picture of AD on your avatar; I can't help but think that there isn't any 'beautifying' cinematography here, he may be wearing makeup but not in the same league as movie makeup yet he still looks -a hunk.
@motherofpearl1

Thank you! :-)  It's from the Venice Film Festival where he won Best Actor for Hungry Hearts.  He looked fantastic at that festival, but at the same time I wanted something a little goofball and real, because he does seem to be a very genuine person, and this pic seemed to work. Thank you again.  :-)  Now I want to see your avatar, because you're a fantastic poster! :-)  I used to be avatar-less for a long time too, but @guardienne nudged me very nicely about it.  Very Happy

On Han and Kylo, I completely agree.  Driver did such beautiful work in that deleted scene.  There was not a bit of anger in it ... the way he slumped, it was all hurt.  I don't think Han outright abused him or anything, but Driver knows the story ... there has to be some very tragic hurt there.

@SoloSideCousin

How do you get an avatar - I'm completely clueless!

Regarding the 'abuse'...there are many kinds of abuse. No way would Han physically hurt his son, but if he was afraid of him, or felt disappointed that they weren't very alike, he may have inadvertently said or did something that hurt him without realising it. I'll always remember how his expression changed from confident to hurt in the scene where he 'looked' into Rey's mind and saw her affection for his dad.
@motherofpearl1

Yes! Adam played that moment beautifully.  He was actually very touched to see her imagining the island and then he sees Han and he gets this, "Oh God help me already!" look on his face.

I also agree that there are all kinds of "abuse" ... or "ways of hurting" that don't qualify as traditional abuse.  Until I see something different, I am a big believer in the theory that Han became alienated from his son when Ben's powers came to light.  Han didn't like or understand the concept of the Force, and he didn't really want to.  In his experience, the Force was crazy bad stuff like Vader force pulling the blaster out of his hand and whatever Luke shared with him about his time with the emperor.  He knew that Anakin was apparently normal at some point and that the Force made him go bad.  So when his kid suddenly started developing powers and probably showed a few dark tendencies, Han probably really couldn't deal with it ... and probably kind of ran away from the problem ... which of course Ben would interpret as fear, shame and lack of love.  I think even without the Force arising in his kid that Han was never going to be father of the year.  I want to see what Aftermath 3 comes up with, but Han showed a lot of ambivalence about being a father in Aftermath 2.  Even after he had completed his mission with Chewie, he was still very tempted to keep running off to have adventures instead of settling down.  Then in Bloodline there are little hints that he didn't know quite what to make of baby Ben and that he hadn't been sure that he ever even wanted a kid ... and the excerpt does not give you any resolution like "But now that I see him I love him, etc." ... It kind of just leaves you hanging.  I definitely think Han loved his son, but I get the sense that he didn't "step up" for his son anywhere as much as he should have ... hence almost requiring that moment on the catwalk ... almost like a "I'm here now, and I'm all the way here," kind of moment.

On the avatar, click on "Profile" at the top.  Then click on "Avatar".  There you will see a space where you can copy and paste a picture of your choice into.  Google whatever interests you and then click "Images" and you should get a lot of choice if you don't have a ready made image that you want to use..  (I'm sorry if that last bit about Google is too pedantic, but I know that I have *big* gaps in my tech knowledge, so I always appreciate the longer explanation. :-)).
@SoloSideCousin

I think that's deffinatly canon.I think it was the junior novalization that mentions Han wishing his son was normal or something like that.There's also Leia saying that she aways hated him leaving which indicates he left and came back which is something Ben most likely witnessed.What's interesting is that Han wasn't suppose to appear in Bloodline but CG wanted to include him because she was a huge Han/Leia fan so I don't think LF wants people to believe Han and Leia had a perfect marriage which we know isn't true but non the less some hardcore Han/Leia/anti Kylo fans seems to have taken as indication that they had a great marriage so Ben had no justifcation to turn to the DS.
Life Debt also forshadows problems in their marriage when han decided to put rescuing Chewie over his pregnant wife justifying it with ''Well,Leia will understand.''Yeah,she does understand eventually but this doesn'' give him the excuse to leave her in such a dangerous time.I understand wanting to help his best fridn but what about working together with leia to accomplish that?The main issue is him beliving that the Rebels need Leia there which is yet another inicator that their marriage will face problems later on.
And honestly it kind of bothers me how Leia doesn't seme to be worried at all that Ben is off with his uncle doing God knows what.I know he's a grown man but seriously.And not thinking about her son at all when she wants to quite being a Senator because she's being more proccupied with going on trips with Han.I also hope she didn't send him off to Luke if he was teaching the old Jedi ways meaning Ben won't be able to marry or start a family of his own because it would be awful.Its hard enough to swallow Han's comment about Kylo having ''too much Vader''in him.
I don't mean to bash Leia or Han but there are these subtle moments that some people might not notice but they're there.
@CienaRee

I agree with everything you say here. It's not cute to talk about, but I had significant issues from a real life perspective on how they handled their son. It would be one thing for them to have this insane marriage/relationship with each other, but when a child comes a lot of things really do need to take a backseat. I just don't see them making their son the priority that I think they should have. It doesn't mean that they are bad people ... It's just that they are the types that should never have kids. They obviously never had anymore, so maybe they understood that. But at the same time, if they couldn't be enough for him, for as sad as it sounds, they should have made better efforts to have some kind of nanny be that person for him. Maybe they see Luke as this person ... but if Luke is old school Jedi, he *can't* be the person Ben needs. In fact, he might have been so old school Jedi that his rules might have caused additional estrangement in an already imperfect family system if he insisted on Ben being separated from the parents.

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I've always loved Han and Leia, but I could never see them as parents. They both seemed to be the type who would have worked better as lovers than a married couple - Han wasn't cut out to be a husband and Leia wasn't meant to be a mother - the rebels and later the Resistance were her children.
I see a desperate need for love in their son, although he doesn't realise it himself. He wants a dad, instead he gets Snoke. He sees power as a substitute for being wanted and loved and admired. He feels like a freak. Then he meets Rey, another like him. And for all his babble about a 'teacher', he just wants someone to love him. Most of all someone who'll understand and not judge him. Kylo has been made to feel he's 'bad' because of his heritage and the nature of his powers. Sadly his parents failed to realise that no matter how old their son was he would never stop needing them.

I hope Reylo will happen because it's a relationship based on a mutual need. i think Rey will realise that when Finn falls in love with KMT's character; that she will no longer be the most important perosn in his life. She'll want someone like that. Someone who needs her, and who she needs.
@motherofpearl1

YES! Every bit of this!!!!!!
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SoloSideCousin
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by CienaRee on Thu 25 Aug - 21:31

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@CienaRee wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:@slade and @vaderito

I really want that surprise flashback scene with at least Harrison Ford's voice. Rian did say something about leaving the nostalgia behind on the OT 3. They could totally pull something like that off like they did the cliffside scenes. I have always liked Han, still do, but if they have the killing of Han come out of left field they will have done a bad writing job ... because unless someone is really, really messed up, like no conscience messed up, which is absolutely not Kylo, these things don't come out of nowhere, even with a brainwashing force predator around. Something needed to have happened with Han ..  there is some big hurt there.
@SoloSideCousin
Yes, I got that impression from the deleted scene aboard the Millennium Falcon. Great bit of 'body language' acting from Driver. And in the junior novel...just what did Han want his his son to forgive him for?

Off topic...that's a nice picture of AD on your avatar; I can't help but think that there isn't any 'beautifying' cinematography here, he may be wearing makeup but not in the same league as movie makeup yet he still looks -a hunk.
@motherofpearl1

Thank you! :-)  It's from the Venice Film Festival where he won Best Actor for Hungry Hearts.  He looked fantastic at that festival, but at the same time I wanted something a little goofball and real, because he does seem to be a very genuine person, and this pic seemed to work. Thank you again.  :-)  Now I want to see your avatar, because you're a fantastic poster! :-)  I used to be avatar-less for a long time too, but @guardienne nudged me very nicely about it.  Very Happy

On Han and Kylo, I completely agree.  Driver did such beautiful work in that deleted scene.  There was not a bit of anger in it ... the way he slumped, it was all hurt.  I don't think Han outright abused him or anything, but Driver knows the story ... there has to be some very tragic hurt there.

@SoloSideCousin

How do you get an avatar - I'm completely clueless!

Regarding the 'abuse'...there are many kinds of abuse. No way would Han physically hurt his son, but if he was afraid of him, or felt disappointed that they weren't very alike, he may have inadvertently said or did something that hurt him without realising it. I'll always remember how his expression changed from confident to hurt in the scene where he 'looked' into Rey's mind and saw her affection for his dad.
@motherofpearl1

Yes! Adam played that moment beautifully.  He was actually very touched to see her imagining the island and then he sees Han and he gets this, "Oh God help me already!" look on his face.

I also agree that there are all kinds of "abuse" ... or "ways of hurting" that don't qualify as traditional abuse.  Until I see something different, I am a big believer in the theory that Han became alienated from his son when Ben's powers came to light.  Han didn't like or understand the concept of the Force, and he didn't really want to.  In his experience, the Force was crazy bad stuff like Vader force pulling the blaster out of his hand and whatever Luke shared with him about his time with the emperor.  He knew that Anakin was apparently normal at some point and that the Force made him go bad.  So when his kid suddenly started developing powers and probably showed a few dark tendencies, Han probably really couldn't deal with it ... and probably kind of ran away from the problem ... which of course Ben would interpret as fear, shame and lack of love.  I think even without the Force arising in his kid that Han was never going to be father of the year.  I want to see what Aftermath 3 comes up with, but Han showed a lot of ambivalence about being a father in Aftermath 2.  Even after he had completed his mission with Chewie, he was still very tempted to keep running off to have adventures instead of settling down.  Then in Bloodline there are little hints that he didn't know quite what to make of baby Ben and that he hadn't been sure that he ever even wanted a kid ... and the excerpt does not give you any resolution like "But now that I see him I love him, etc." ... It kind of just leaves you hanging.  I definitely think Han loved his son, but I get the sense that he didn't "step up" for his son anywhere as much as he should have ... hence almost requiring that moment on the catwalk ... almost like a "I'm here now, and I'm all the way here," kind of moment.

On the avatar, click on "Profile" at the top.  Then click on "Avatar".  There you will see a space where you can copy and paste a picture of your choice into.  Google whatever interests you and then click "Images" and you should get a lot of choice if you don't have a ready made image that you want to use..  (I'm sorry if that last bit about Google is too pedantic, but I know that I have *big* gaps in my tech knowledge, so I always appreciate the longer explanation. :-)).
@SoloSideCousin

I think that's deffinatly canon.I think it was the junior novalization that mentions Han wishing his son was normal or something like that.There's also Leia saying that she aways hated him leaving which indicates he left and came back which is something Ben most likely witnessed.What's interesting is that Han wasn't suppose to appear in Bloodline but CG wanted to include him because she was a huge Han/Leia fan so I don't think LF wants people to believe Han and Leia had a perfect marriage which we know isn't true but non the less some hardcore Han/Leia/anti Kylo fans seems to have taken as indication that they had a great marriage so Ben had no justifcation to turn to the DS.
Life Debt also forshadows problems in their marriage when han decided to put rescuing Chewie over his pregnant wife justifying it with ''Well,Leia will understand.''Yeah,she does understand eventually but this doesn'' give him the excuse to leave her in such a dangerous time.I understand wanting to help his best fridn but what about working together with leia to accomplish that?The main issue is him beliving that the Rebels need Leia there which is yet another inicator that their marriage will face problems later on.
And honestly it kind of bothers me how Leia doesn't seme to be worried at all that Ben is off with his uncle doing God knows what.I know he's a grown man but seriously.And not thinking about her son at all when she wants to quite being a Senator because she's being more proccupied with going on trips with Han.I also hope she didn't send him off to Luke if he was teaching the old Jedi ways meaning Ben won't be able to marry or start a family of his own because it would be awful.Its hard enough to swallow Han's comment about Kylo having ''too much Vader''in him.
I don't mean to bash Leia or Han but there are these subtle moments that some people might not notice but they're there.
@CienaRee

I agree with everything you say here.  It's not cute to talk about, but I had significant issues from a real life perspective on how they handled their son.  It would be one thing for them to have this insane marriage/relationship with each other, but when a child comes a lot of things really do need to take a backseat.  I just don't see them making their son the priority that I think they should have.  It doesn't mean that they are bad people ... It's just that they are the types that should never have kids.  They obviously never had anymore, so maybe they understood that.  But at the same time, if they couldn't be enough for him, for as sad as it sounds, they should have made better efforts to have some kind of nanny be that person for him.  Maybe they see Luke as this person ... but if Luke is old school Jedi, he *can't* be the person Ben needs.  In fact, he might have been so old school Jedi that his rules might have caused additional estrangement in an already imperfect family system if he insisted on Ben being separated from the parents.

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I've always loved Han and Leia, but I could never see them as parents. They both seemed to be the type who would have worked better as lovers than a married couple - Han wasn't cut out to be a husband and Leia wasn't meant to be a mother - the rebels and later the Resistance were her children.
I see a desperate need for love in their son, although he doesn't realise it himself. He wants a dad, instead he gets Snoke. He sees power as a substitute for being wanted and loved and admired. He feels like a freak. Then he meets Rey, another like him. And for all his babble about a 'teacher', he just wants someone to love him. Most of all someone who'll understand and not judge him. Kylo has been made to feel he's 'bad' because of his heritage and the nature of his powers. Sadly his parents failed to realise that no matter how old their son was he would never stop needing them.

I hope Reylo will happen because it's a relationship based on a mutual need. i think Rey will realise that when Finn falls in love with KMT's character; that she will no longer be the most important perosn in his life. She'll want someone like that. Someone who needs her, and who she needs.
@motherofpearl1

YES! Every bit of this!!!!!!
@SoloSideCousin

I'm not an expert of the EU but I remeber that Han and Leia were basically the same there as they were in canon.In fact as much as some fans complain the EU actually treated them worse by having them act like roomates who don't have anytime for each other and are burried in their work(IMO,Leia even falls in love with a guy named Isildor before she married Han he actually had to kidnap her and convince her to fall back in love with him).Leia especially's been portrayed as a workaholic who has no time for her children so they wre raised by her best friend Winter.Jaina was very bitter and it takes years to reconcile with her mother while Jacen started seeing Winter  as his mother(bair in midn that all of this comes from the SW wiki so I might be wrong about some of those things).So I'm not really surprised they were presented the same way in canon.I just feel really sorry for Ben maybe if he had a sibling or siblings he might not have felt so misunderstood or abandoned by his parents.Mayeb that's why the writers decided to make him an only child.

CienaRee
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Messages : 933
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Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26

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