Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 26 Aug - 6:59

Another thing...if they decided to make Luke do the 'parenting' that was a mistake as a man who'd chosen a 'monk' like existence wasn't meant to be a parent either. It's why so many kids raised in convent schools rebelled in later life, the nuns tried to force their image of perfection on them while not having a clue how to be mothers. Luke didn't know how to raise a child and even if Ben was sent to him in his teens he was still very much a child due to his parents unintentional neglect.
I think much of his 'emo' behaviour stems from this - he both grew up too fast and didn't grow up at all.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by CienaRee on Fri 26 Aug - 8:30

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Another thing...if they decided to make Luke do the 'parenting' that was a mistake as a man who'd chosen a 'monk' like existence wasn't meant to be a parent either. It's why so many kids raised in convent schools rebelled in later life, the nuns tried to force their image of perfection on them while not having a clue how to be mothers. Luke didn't know how to raise a child and even if Ben was sent to him in his teens he was still very much a child due to his parents unintentional neglect.
I think much of his 'emo' behaviour stems from this - he both grew up too fast and didn't grow up at all.
@motherofpearl1

I completly agree.Leia also mentions that ''Luke is a Jedi.You're his father'' -notice how she could have said ''Luke is his uncle'' but she didn't.The fact that she said that makes me believe Luke couldn't relate to Ben because he was following the old Jedi rules.

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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 26 Aug - 8:43

I've always liked the code of the Grey Jedi far more than the others. The 'White Jedi' so to speak, were firmly convinced that in order to be a true Jedi people should cast aside their own humanity, whereas the Grey Jedi believed in acknowledging your own flaws and then accepting yourself as the road to real peace of mind. This would have been the best way to teaching someone like Ben Solo. Instead he was made to see his own nature as part 'evil'.

I always found the way Obi Wan left Anakin Skywalker dying in agony on Mustafar repulsive - it would have been kinder if he'd put him out of his misery. The 'Jedi way' isn't to kill, but it's okay to leave your enemy to suffer. To me, it makes them hypocrites.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by CienaRee on Fri 26 Aug - 8:51

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I've always liked the code of the Grey Jedi far more than the others. The 'White Jedi' so to speak, were firmly convinced that in order to be a true Jedi people should cast aside their own humanity, whereas the Grey Jedi believed in acknowledging your own flaws and then accepting yourself as the road to real peace of mind. This would have been the best way to teaching someone like Ben Solo. Instead he was made to see his own nature as part 'evil'.

I always found the way Obi Wan left Anakin Skywalker dying in agony on Mustafar repulsive - it would have been kinder if he'd put him out of his misery. The 'Jedi way' isn't to kill, but it's okay to leave your enemy to suffer. To me, it makes them hypocrites.
@motherofpearl1

Exactly.Even Luke is now separating Vader and Anakin and idolizing the latter while ignoring what the former did(eventhough they're the same person)which for me kind of ruins in some ways the main theme in the OT which was about redemption and love and Luke beliving in the good in his father despite what he'd done.Then again Luke's aways idolzied his father even without ever knowing him so that could have influenced his way of thinking but it's still frustrating how this distinction between Anakin and Vader was made.I remeber reading an interview with the author of the ''Tarkin''novel where he mentioned the ongoing debate over whether Anakin and Vader were the same person and said he didn't buy that people chnaged overnight and he didn't believe that happene dwith Anakin either especially during the early years of the Empire.
As for Obi Wan I so agree that what he did was very hypocritical.I mean if had just killed him then than there wouldn't have bene any Darth Vader and he wouldn't have spend years of being slave to the Emperor.If you think about it Anakin/Vader is right in some ways to be angry at his former master-he not only crippled him but left him to burn in agony(and I'm syaing that as someone who's a huge fan of Obi Wan).

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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by snufkin on Mon 29 Aug - 18:24

@BastilaBey

Becaues you just mentioned the Deborah Lutz's The Demon Lover, I just found another book that might make for interesting reading for those of you exploring some of the literary roots and themes mentioned as inspirations. I've been reading it via Google Play mostly because it has an essay about the movie (Something Wild) my avatar (Lulu, the wild other half out of the two lead characters) is from, including one of my favorite quotes which is pretty damn yin-yang

Audrey: “What are you gonna do now you’ve seen how the other half lives?”
Charles: “The other half?”
Audrey: “The other half of you.”


The Shadow Self in Film: Projecting the Unconscious Other

This book examines 13 movies that deal with the protagonist and his projected "other." The cinematic Other is interpreted as an unconscious personality, a denied part of the protagonist that appears in his life as a shadowy menace who won't go away. Devoting a chapter to each movie, the book starts with Mamoulian's Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and three cinematic pairs: two Hitchcock films, Shadow of a Doubt and Strangers on a Train; two versions of Cape Fear, J. Lee Thompson's 1962 original and Martin Scorsese's 1991 remake; and a pair of Clint Eastwood films, In the Line of Fire and Blood Work. The book then examines Something Wild, Sea of Love, Fight Club, Desperately Seeking Susan, Apocalypse Now and The Lives of Others. Overall the book aims to show how movies envision the unconscious Other we all too often project on other people.

The writing isn't too academic in terms of referencing literature and cinematography in depth, but does make for interesting reading. Most important is that it points to the hinted narrative of exploring two protagonists as respective Others is what's called a doppelgänger
thriller, meaning (sorry can't resist a pun) that...



Speaking of Something Wild, another great quote I like about that movie, which is about characters who start out as "types" (yuppie and dangerous bohemian) who reveal that there's more complexity underneath is that it's a story not about self-improvement, but self-awareness. So my hope is that unlike all of the usual Internet predictions about "Rey will be a Jedi, he will become eeeevilller" is that they continue having these two bump heads because the confrontation is going to result in some very interesting and entertaining self-awareness on both sides.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by vaderito on Mon 29 Aug - 19:00

Ok, so any ideas how they could play Jung&Bly stuff in VIII?
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by snufkin on Mon 29 Aug - 19:23

@vaderito wrote:Ok, so any ideas how they could play Jung&Bly stuff in VIII?

@vaderito

I will be honest and say that I've never read anything by Jung because I managed to make it through school without ever taking a Psychology class. Bly I only know about because of the "men's movement" he wrote about got attention in popular culture. What I would guess (and think would be fascinating/really fun) would be to have these two confront each other as their respective shadows and the parts/feelings which they want to deny in themselves. For her it would have to be every emotion/fear she's had to repress about whatever happened with her family that led to her being trapped on Jakku. Which mirrors all of the issues he has with his family which has led him right into the clutches of Snoke and the DS. For the inverse, she represents to him all of the weaknesses he's been trying to destroy (his word) within himself, compassion, the pull to the Light, the need for belonging/love. She's as much his villain(ess) and he is hers.



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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by vaderito on Mon 29 Aug - 19:26

@snufkin wrote:
@vaderito wrote:Ok, so any ideas how they could play Jung&Bly stuff in VIII?

@vaderito

I will be honest and say that I've never read anything by Jung because I managed to make it through school without ever taking a Psychology class. Bly I only know about because of the "men's movement" he wrote about got attention in popular culture. What I would guess (and think would be fascinating/really fun) would be to have these two confront each other as their respective shadows and the parts/feelings which they want to deny in themselves. For her it would have to be every emotion/fear she's had to repress about whatever happened with her family that led to her being trapped on Jakku. Which mirrors all of the issues he has with his family which has led him right into the clutches of Snoke and the DS. For the inverse, she represents to him all of the weaknesses he's been trying to destroy (his word) within himself, compassion, the pull to the Light, the need for belonging/love. She's as much his villain(ess) and he is hers.



@snufkin

I like that. I'm wondering how they'll present it as something weird. because we hear that word thrown around about the movie but none of meager spoilers sounds weird. yet MSW said that Ahch-to would be "nuanced".

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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by snufkin on Mon 29 Aug - 19:32

@vaderito wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@vaderito wrote:Ok, so any ideas how they could play Jung&Bly stuff in VIII?

@vaderito

I will be honest and say that I've never read anything by Jung because I  managed to make it through school without ever taking a Psychology class. Bly I only know about because of the "men's movement" he wrote about got attention in popular culture. What I would guess (and think would be fascinating/really fun) would be to have these two confront each other as their respective shadows and the parts/feelings which they want to deny in themselves.  For her it would have to be every emotion/fear she's had to repress about whatever happened with her family that led to her being trapped on Jakku. Which mirrors all of the issues he has with his family which has led him right into the clutches of Snoke and the DS. For the inverse, she represents to him all of the weaknesses he's been trying to destroy (his word) within himself, compassion, the pull to the Light, the need for belonging/love.  She's as much his villain(ess) and he is hers.



@snufkin

I like that. I'm wondering how they'll present it as something weird. because we hear that word thrown around about the movie but none of meager spoilers sounds weird. yet MSW said that Ahch-to would be "nuanced".

@vaderito

Like everything, my preface is "I would love to see ____" or "this would be a Hell of a lot of fun to watch," but I really hope that they go that route. After watching the "Lessons from the Screenplay" episode he did about how the Nolan brothers wrote the Joker in the Dark Knight to be the perfect antagonist because he exposes the hero's weaknesses and essential character, that's what I hope happens in this situation. Except that the weird part is that instead of following the standard "they'll just fight until she kills him" scenario most of the Internet thinks will happen, what I hope happens is that it forces both of them to evolve. Also c'mon, young idealistic/angry young man who dresses up in a black armor outfit that includes hiding his face and voice, where have we seen that before? If the backstory includes some kind of Fall in which he believes himself to be taking all of this up as a righteous cause, that even screws with audience expectations. And he's gonna struggle with having her as an equally powerful Force User suddenly around - does he try to convert her to whatever his cause is? Does he kill her because technically she's a Jedi? does he struggle with the infatuation/attraction we all saw in TFA? Definitely struggles with how she is his literal Pull to the Light, which as you pointed out elsewhere on here, was simultaneously her Vision and him feeling it as a Pull to the Light.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by vaderito on Mon 29 Aug - 19:40

@snufkin Can't understand people who think they'll only fight to death when the director said he was inspired by Jung and Bly. That's just Rolling Eyes
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by snufkin on Mon 29 Aug - 19:41

@vaderito wrote:@snufkin Can't understand people who think they'll only fight to death when the director said he was inspired by Jung and Bly. That's just :roll:
@vaderito

People see what they want to see. Which is a funny thing to say about that issue because these are two characters who will likely have their own preconceptions about their identities, each other, and the world that they live in totally taken apart.

Also most people in the GA (maybe Europeans are better educated about this than Americans) wouldn't know who Jung is, let alone Bly.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by vaderito on Mon 29 Aug - 19:43

@snufkin wrote:

People see what they want to see. Which is a funny thing to say about that issue because these are two characters who will likely have their own preconceptions about their identities, each other, and the world that they live in totally taken apart.
@snufkin

Yep and you can actually take the story further when characters aren't getting along and seeing the world the same way already.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 29 Aug - 19:46

@snufkin wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@vaderito wrote:Ok, so any ideas how they could play Jung&Bly stuff in VIII?

@vaderito

I will be honest and say that I've never read anything by Jung because I  managed to make it through school without ever taking a Psychology class. Bly I only know about because of the "men's movement" he wrote about got attention in popular culture. What I would guess (and think would be fascinating/really fun) would be to have these two confront each other as their respective shadows and the parts/feelings which they want to deny in themselves.  For her it would have to be every emotion/fear she's had to repress about whatever happened with her family that led to her being trapped on Jakku. Which mirrors all of the issues he has with his family which has led him right into the clutches of Snoke and the DS. For the inverse, she represents to him all of the weaknesses he's been trying to destroy (his word) within himself, compassion, the pull to the Light, the need for belonging/love.  She's as much his villain(ess) and he is hers.



@snufkin

I like that. I'm wondering how they'll present it as something weird. because we hear that word thrown around about the movie but none of meager spoilers sounds weird. yet MSW said that Ahch-to would be "nuanced".

@vaderito

Like everything, my preface is "I would love to see ____" or "this would be a Hell of a lot of fun to watch," but I really hope that they go that route. After watching the "Lessons from the Screenplay" episode he did about how the Nolan brothers wrote the Joker in the Dark Knight to be the perfect antagonist because he exposes the hero's weaknesses and essential character, that's what I hope happens in this situation. Except that the weird part is that instead of following the standard "they'll just fight until she kills him" scenario most of the Internet thinks will happen, what I hope happens is that it forces both of them to evolve. Also c'mon, young idealistic/angry young man who dresses up in a black armor outfit that includes hiding his face and voice, where have we seen that before? If the backstory includes some kind of Fall in which he believes himself to be taking all of this up as a righteous cause, that even screws with audience expectations. And he's gonna struggle with having her as an equally powerful Force User suddenly around - does he try to convert her to whatever his cause is? Does he kill her because technically she's a Jedi? does he struggle with the infatuation/attraction we all saw in TFA? Definitely struggles with how she is his literal Pull to the Light, which as you pointed out elsewhere on here, was simultaneously her Vision and him feeling it as a Pull to the Light.
@snufkin

And Kylo is her 'pull to the Dark' - which is why I'm absolutely convinced they will become Grey.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by BastilaBey on Mon 29 Aug - 19:47

@vaderito wrote:Ok, so any ideas how they could play Jung&Bly stuff in VIII?
@vaderito

Well, I don't think it allows us to make specific plot point predictions. But if we look at how the characters were presented in TFA, we can speculate on how they will be pushed to wrestle with their shadows. Kylo Ren insisted that Ben Solo was dead, that he'd killed him. That is clearly not true, and his reaction to killing his father in an effort to extinguish that light may have started to bring Ben out of the shadows.

His interactions with Rey bring Ben to the surface, too. "You're so lonely, so afraid to leave" is about him just as much as her. By following Rey to Ahch-To, Kylo will be forced to address whatever happened at Luke's Order, and we know the story won't be as simple as some think because of the vague ways it was alluded to in TFA and supplementary material.

I am mostly looking forward to seeing Rey deal with her past. While we might not know exactly who her parents were until IX - depends on how it relates to the rest of the plot - I'd hope that part of the Jungian influences will relate to her truly accepting that they were never going to come back for her. How her incredibly hard life as a scavenger may have made her do some terrible things she'd rather not acknowledge. How she might be desperate for affection and approval, and how that could shape her struggle with the light and dark sides of the force. So many possibilities.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by snufkin on Mon 29 Aug - 20:01

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@snufkin

And Kylo is her 'pull to the Dark' - which is why I'm absolutely convinced they will become Grey.

@motherofpearl1

Agreed. He's going to be the key to working out all of the thoughts/emotions she's had to suppress about whatever led to her ending up in Unkar Plutt's Victorian workhouse as a child laborer. She's had to supress them in order to survive body and soul. But now that Maz has smashed that idea to pieces like a pinata, everything is going to come spilling out. It'll work out in the end, for both of them, but it's not going to be the "yay, Luke and his good girl daughter are reunited!" scenario a lot of people have conjectured.

I think they're going to very much play with the relationship between these two characters with Dark and Light as being the Hero of their own narrative and the Other is the villain/ess and antagonist. As I said above, revisiting the Dark Knight thanks to this YT channel by a filmmaker put a lot of my thoughts into place. He sees himself as doing the right thing and making the hard choices. But what happens once he runs up against her, who is his perfect antagonist as outlined in the video essay below. How does that force him to confront who he's become, what he's doing, what his essential character is, what the price is for the hard choices he's made?



Last edited by snufkin on Mon 29 Aug - 20:03; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by vaderito on Mon 29 Aug - 20:03

@BastilaBey wrote:
@vaderito wrote:Ok, so any ideas how they could play Jung&Bly stuff in VIII?
@vaderito

Well, I don't think it allows us to make specific plot point predictions. But if we look at how the characters were presented in TFA, we can speculate on how they will be pushed to wrestle with their shadows. Kylo Ren insisted that Ben Solo was dead, that he'd killed him. That is clearly not true, and his reaction to killing his father in an effort to extinguish that light may have started to bring Ben out of the shadows.

His interactions with Rey bring Ben to the surface, too. "You're so lonely, so afraid to leave" is about him just as much as her. By following Rey to Ahch-To, Kylo will be forced to address whatever happened at Luke's Order, and we know the story won't be as simple as some think because of the vague ways it was alluded to in TFA and supplementary material.

I am mostly looking forward to seeing Rey deal with her past. While we might not know exactly who her parents were until IX - depends on how it relates to the rest of the plot - I'd hope that part of the Jungian influences will relate to her truly accepting that they were never going to come back for her. How her incredibly hard life as a scavenger may have made her do some terrible things she'd rather not acknowledge. How she might be desperate for affection and approval, and how that could shape her struggle with the light and dark sides of the force. So many possibilities.
@BastilaBey

i like it a lot. I'm wondering about visual presentation because they can't just have people talk and argue around the campfire. Perhaps they have visions in the temple?
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by BastilaBey on Mon 29 Aug - 20:06

@vaderito I think I need to watch Raiders of the lost ark again because the whole archaeological stuff has to play into Ahch-to plot as well. Especially with letter never sent influence. They might discover something that relates to the origin of the force that throws traditional beliefs of the jedi into question. That seems to be the logical progression based on how they were presented in the prequels.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by snufkin on Mon 29 Aug - 20:08

@BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito I think I need to watch Raiders of the lost ark again because the whole archaeological stuff has to play into Ahch-to plot as well. Especially with letter never sent influence. They might discover something that relates to the origin of the force that throws traditional beliefs of the jedi into question. That seems to be the logical progression based on how they were presented in the prequels.
@BastilaBey

They have this talking and looking at books scene which very nicely foreshadows (via music) the Ravenwood family, the love affair Indy and Marion had which led to his fallout with her father, the Nazi relic hunters (KoR) being on the hunt for Marion, and the discovery in the Well of Souls and the Climax



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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by vaderito on Mon 29 Aug - 20:12

@BastilaBey wrote:@vaderito I think I need to watch Raiders of the lost ark again because the whole archaeological stuff has to play into Ahch-to plot as well. Especially with letter never sent influence. They might discover something that relates to the origin of the force that throws traditional beliefs of the jedi into question. That seems to be the logical progression based on how they were presented in the prequels.
@BastilaBey @snufkin

origin of the Force or source of the Force or center of the Force. cause Palpatine wanted to find the source of the Dark Side in Aftermath books. So I'm thinking we get similar thing here with the Force.


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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 29 Aug - 20:26

@snufkin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@snufkin

And Kylo is her 'pull to the Dark' - which is why I'm absolutely convinced they will become Grey.

@motherofpearl1

Agreed. He's going to be the key to working out all of the thoughts/emotions she's had to suppress about whatever led to her ending up in Unkar Plutt's Victorian workhouse as a child laborer. She's had to supress them in order to survive body and soul. But now that Maz has smashed that idea to pieces like a pinata, everything is going to come spilling out. It'll work out in the end, for both of them, but it's not going to be the "yay, Luke and his good girl daughter are reunited!" scenario a lot of people have conjectured.

I think they're going to very much play with the relationship between these two characters with Dark and Light as being the Hero of their own narrative and the Other is the villain/ess and antagonist. As I said above, revisiting the Dark Knight thanks to this YT channel by a filmmaker put a lot of my thoughts into place. He sees himself as doing the right thing and making the hard choices. But what happens once he runs up against her, who is his perfect antagonist as outlined in the video essay below. How does that force him to confront who he's become, what he's doing, what his essential character is, what the price is for the hard choices he's made?

@snufkin

I loved that film!
In the DC comics, the Joker and Batman were seen as opposites of the same coin; in the graphic novel The Killing Joke the Joker was revealed to have a tragic past. He is of course, much more of a villain than Kylo, but the idea that the protagonist and antagonist have a lot in common is very similar.

With it being a male and female duo however, the seeds are there for one hell of a love story - and may also show how two damaged souls can heal themselves. If Disney are brave enough.... Wink
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 29 Aug - 20:55

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@snufkin

And Kylo is her 'pull to the Dark' - which is why I'm absolutely convinced they will become Grey.

@motherofpearl1

Agreed. He's going to be the key to working out all of the thoughts/emotions she's had to suppress about whatever led to her ending up in Unkar Plutt's Victorian workhouse as a child laborer. She's had to supress them in order to survive body and soul. But now that Maz has smashed that idea to pieces like a pinata, everything is going to come spilling out. It'll work out in the end, for both of them, but it's not going to be the "yay, Luke and his good girl daughter are reunited!" scenario a lot of people have conjectured.

I think they're going to very much play with the relationship between these two characters with Dark and Light as being the Hero of their own narrative and the Other is the villain/ess and antagonist. As I said above, revisiting the Dark Knight thanks to this YT channel by a filmmaker put a lot of my thoughts into place. He sees himself as doing the right thing and making the hard choices. But what happens once he runs up against her, who is his perfect antagonist as outlined in the video essay below. How does that force him to confront who he's become, what he's doing, what his essential character is, what the price is for the hard choices he's made?

@snufkin

I loved that film!
In the DC comics, the Joker and Batman were seen as opposites of the same coin; in the graphic novel The Killing Joke the Joker was revealed to have a tragic past. He is of course, much more of a villain than Kylo, but the idea that the protagonist and antagonist have a lot in common is very similar.

With it being a male and female duo however, the seeds are there for one hell of a love story - and may also show how two damaged souls can heal themselves. If Disney are brave enough.... Wink
@motherofpearl1

YES!!! From your mouth to the executives' ears!!! Be *brave*, because a story like that, that we know will be well-acted, will be paradigm-changing for this franchise and for tentpole movies. Nolan showed what was possible with The Dark Knight. Be like Nolan executives, be brave. Sometimes it isn't perfect, but it's always intriguing. And frankly, the execs really couldn't do that much worse after the completely lackluster summer we just had. I am a big movie person and I could barely be bothered to see any of those tentpole offerings.

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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by snufkin on Mon 29 Aug - 20:59

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@snufkin

And Kylo is her 'pull to the Dark' - which is why I'm absolutely convinced they will become Grey.

@motherofpearl1

Agreed. He's going to be the key to working out all of the thoughts/emotions she's had to suppress about whatever led to her ending up in Unkar Plutt's Victorian workhouse as a child laborer. She's had to supress them in order to survive body and soul. But now that Maz has smashed that idea to pieces like a pinata, everything is going to come spilling out. It'll work out in the end, for both of them, but it's not going to be the "yay, Luke and his good girl daughter are reunited!" scenario a lot of people have conjectured.

I think they're going to very much play with the relationship between these two characters with Dark and Light as being the Hero of their own narrative and the Other is the villain/ess and antagonist. As I said above, revisiting the Dark Knight thanks to this YT channel by a filmmaker put a lot of my thoughts into place. He sees himself as doing the right thing and making the hard choices. But what happens once he runs up against her, who is his perfect antagonist as outlined in the video essay below. How does that force him to confront who he's become, what he's doing, what his essential character is, what the price is for the hard choices he's made?

@snufkin

I loved that film!
In the DC comics, the Joker and Batman were seen as opposites of the same coin; in the graphic novel The Killing Joke the Joker was revealed to have a tragic past. He is of course, much more of a villain than Kylo, but the idea that the protagonist and antagonist have a lot in common is very similar.

With it being a male and female duo however, the seeds are there for one hell of a love story - and may also show how two damaged souls can heal themselves. If Disney are brave enough.... Wink
@motherofpearl1

YES!!! From your mouth to the executives' ears!!! Be *brave*, because a story like that, that we know will be well-acted, will be paradigm-changing for this franchise and for tentpole movies. Nolan showed what was possible with The Dark Knight. Be like Nolan executives, be brave. Sometimes it isn't perfect, but it's always intriguing. And frankly, the execs really couldn't do that much worse after the completely lackluster summer we just had. I am a big movie person and I could barely be bothered to see any of those tentpole offerings.

@SoloSideCousin

Agreed on the bolded. And the ST is being released as a family event for the holiday season, so unlike the standard tentpole juggernauts for the summer season, it has to ultimately be something that's uplifting and in the spirit of the season (love, hope, coming together...).

Also I'm greedy, I want that, plus everything @vaderito has posted about LotLA parallels and something to do with the mysterious origins of the Force that the Dark and Light side powers have been pursuing separately. Where these two have to work together, despite misgivings/mistrust of the other, and in defiance of whatever side they're supposedly representing.
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by snufkin on Mon 29 Aug - 22:14

Two more tidbits from my tangent about Something Wild and having the protagonists act as each other's Other and going through evolution/revealing of hidden secrets, which I think is relevant here with the Self and the Shadow being reconciled:

The Road Trip Within

The freedom afforded by the road-movie genre—stylistic, dramatic, or otherwise—many of them often have character arcs, usually hinging on people learning something about themselves along the way. Both Audrey and especially Charles do learn new things about themselves during this odyssey—but it’s not as simple as Audrey learning the dangers of her unfettered lifestyle and Charles becoming more of a bad-a** by embracing that same lifestyle. A key exchange late in the film between the both crystallizes Demme’s more nuanced take on these characters’ personal revelations:

Audrey: “What are you gonna do now you’ve seen how the other half lives?”
Charles: “The other half?”
Audrey: “The other half of you.”


Instead of being about self-improvement, Something Wild is more about self-awareness: a realization of how complex human beings can be....Charles sees this harrowing outcome not as a reason to run back to his former lifestyle, but to quit his cushy banking job and take a leap into the great unknown. The physical open road he has traversed with Audrey has finally become the mental open road of his own future.


Something Wild

As characters, Charlie and Lulu could not have been more different, at least initially before Charlie reveals his hidden secrets and dark spots. Later on, under seemingly divergent uniforms, the two turn out to be kindred souls...

“I'm a rebel,” says Charlie, “I just channeled my rebellion into the mainstream.” By this time, however, Lulu's transformation has gone into the opposite direction, and she begins to show signs of domesticity. “What are you gonna do now that you've seen how the other one lives–the other half of you” In this sentence, the film's message of human nature's duality shows strong resemblance to that of Hitchcock's Shadow of a Doubt, not to mention the similarity in the protagonists' names. In Hitchcock's 1943 picture, we have Uncle Charlie (Joseph Cotton) and his niece, Young Charlie (Teresa Wright).
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 28 Sep - 2:42

I was on hold with Bank of America for 1000 years and I found this article that touches quite nicely on many of the things discussed here:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/201204/essential-secrets-psychotherapy-what-is-the-shadow
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Re: Rian Johnson's Psychological Inspirations for VIII: Jung, Bly and the Human Shadow

Post by vaderito on Wed 28 Sep - 3:20

@SoloSideCousin wrote:I was on hold with Bank of America for 1000 years and I found this article that touches quite nicely on many of the things discussed here:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/201204/essential-secrets-psychotherapy-what-is-the-shadow
@SoloSideCousin

That's some really great, deep stuff and describes certain character(s) to a T. That part about projection and repression (remember the ball under the water?). If VIII is 1/2 Jungian and Bly-esque as I hope it;ll be, it's gonna blow minds and we should also get some phenomenal acting.
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