Loving a murderer

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Loving a murderer

Post by guardienne on July 15th 2016, 7:10 am

i posted this in the main reylo thread a week or so ago but it got little attention so i thought maybe i can get away with a separate thread?



this is the scene in west side story where anita finds out that maria is really in love with her boyfriend's murderer. when i saw WSS the last time i was struck by how easily maria goes on him and we know that tony killed bernardo in a fight. but in this song, anita comes in being angry and aggrieved and comes out believing in love... that's the power of musical, i guess.

i know that people have discussed romeo + juliet here before, and i don't know the relevatn passage from r+j but i know that romeo kills tybalt right?

so, how easy was this for you to accept?

i think this is interesting wrt reylo of course. the stories really just never dwell on the really pretty unsavoury aspect of the main love interest.
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Re: Loving a murderer

Post by Darth_Awakened on July 15th 2016, 7:21 am

No problem at all for accepting it.
Everything is in the setting for me.
If you read/watch anything that has nothing to do with the reality, which setting implies completely different moral - I have a zero problem with it.
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Re: Loving a murderer

Post by BastilaBey on July 15th 2016, 7:40 am

I guess it depends on how the killing is presented in the narrative. Star Wars is obviously all about war and literally every character kills whether they're 'good guys' or not, so it's not at all a dealbreaker. And it's not like Kylo's actions are condoned by the narrative itself, he is currently billed as the villain for good reason.

Romeo killing Tybalt serves a purpose in that world too, makes it clear there's a violent divide that is destructive and sets the tone for a destructive love, that R+J's lives are destroyed by the violence that surrounds them.
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Re: Loving a murderer

Post by Rimfaxe96 on July 15th 2016, 11:05 am

@BastilaBey wrote:I guess it depends on how the killing is presented in the narrative.
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This.

I mean, I'm a gamer. I can count the video games that didn't have my beloved characters killing anyone or anything in the past 10 years off a single hand (3, 4 games maybe?). Of course, this is never pointed out (with The Last of Us being an exception when Ellie meets David and they talk about "killing to survive" - still hardly of use for a real discussiona bout ethics and morals since she has killed A LOT of people to survive and he did too because his clan eats human meat too).

I can only repeat my usual opinion on this topic - keep reality and fiction seperate.
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Re: Loving a murderer

Post by Xylo Ren on July 15th 2016, 11:17 am

I was more upset with Maria because he killed her brother. I could never love someone that killed my kin, my family is everything to me. I know murder is murder, but context matters in sorry telling.

Han, as horrible as a death it was for Rey, was not her blood and she only knew him for a short period of time. She doesn't know the motivation nor back story, just like we don't. Tony also wasn't painted as such a sympathetic character for me and I thought they fell in love too easily in the first place (musical setting, just as Darth said).

I admit Han's murder is the main roadblock for redeemed Kylo. No matter what he does it will be hard to swallow for some, and others may never ever accept him.This was the risk they took when writing that scene in.
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Re: Loving a murderer

Post by Slade on July 15th 2016, 11:28 am

And maybe TPTB intended us to feel conflicted and to ask these questions? Good art can cause discomfort in the viewer, I think.
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Re: Loving a murderer

Post by vaderito on July 15th 2016, 11:36 am

Didn't Romeo kill Juliette's cousin or something?
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Re: Loving a murderer

Post by guardienne on July 15th 2016, 1:07 pm

@vaderito i think tybalt is related to her but i can't remember how. but he's definitely part of the family.
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Re: Loving a murderer

Post by Xylo Ren on July 15th 2016, 1:18 pm

Tybalt is Juliet's cousin, in West Side Story Bernado, (aka Tybalt) is her brother.
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Re: Loving a murderer

Post by guardienne on July 15th 2016, 4:49 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:

Romeo killing Tybalt serves a purpose in that world too, makes it clear there's a violent divide that is destructive and sets the tone for a destructive love, that R+J's lives are destroyed by the violence that surrounds them.
@BastilaBey


i think this is my favourite view at the moment, it's a violent world and people die in it. i cannot remember the last time i saw a romeo & juliet adaptation, probably the baz luhrmann film, whihc is pretty old now, but i wasn't looking at this love as an impossible thing then. i think juliet knows but she loves him anyway. maybe i should dig out the dialogue.

but it struck me as odd that it's just not questioned by either of them really.

i'll see if i can find the dialogue.

i like the anita/maria duet massively. so few woman/woman duets there are and this one is a passionate argument! ha.
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Re: Loving a murderer

Post by guardienne on July 15th 2016, 5:15 pm

Romeo’s cry, “O, I am fortune’s fool!” refers specifically to his unluckiness in being forced to kill his new wife’s cousin, thereby getting himself banished (3.1.131). It also recalls the sense of fate that hangs over the play. Mercutio’s response to his fate, however, is notable in the ways it diverges from Romeo’s response. Romeo blames fate, or fortune, for what has happened to him. Mercutio curses the Montagues and Capulets. He seems to see people as the cause of his death, and gives no credit to any larger force.

Elizabethan society generally believed that a man too much in love lost his manliness. Romeo clearly subscribes to that belief, as can be seen when he states that his love for Juliet had made him “effeminate.” Once again, however, this statement can be seen as a battle between the private world of love and the public world of honor, duty, and friendship. The Romeo who duels with Tybalt is the Romeo who Mercutio would call the “true” Romeo. The Romeo who sought to avoid confrontation out of concern for his wife is the person Juliet would recognize as her loving Romeo. The word effeminate is applied by the public world of honor upon those things it does not respect. In using the term to describe his present state, Romeo accepts the responsibilities thrust upon him by the social institutions of honor and family duty.

The arrival of the Prince and the angry citizens shifts the focus of the play to a different sort of public sphere. Romeo’s killing of Tybalt is marked by rashness and vengeance, characteristics prized by noblemen, but which threaten the public order that citizens desire and the Prince has a responsibility to uphold. As one who has displayed such traits, Romeo is banished from Verona. Earlier, the Prince acted to repress the hatred of the Montagues and the Capulets in order to preserve public peace; now, still acting to avert outbreaks of violence, the Prince unwittingly acts to thwart the love of Romeo and Juliet. Consequently, with their love censured not only by the Montagues and Capulets but by the ruler of Verona, Romeo and Juliet’s relationship puts Romeo in danger of violent reprisal from both Juliet’s kinsmen and the state.

http://www.sparknotes.com/shakespeare/romeojuliet/section10.rhtml

i like that idea that it's private stuff versus politics, that is kind of where star wars comes in, no?

act 3 scene 2 wrote:That villain cousin would have kill'd my husband: 1825
Back, foolish tears, back to your native spring;
Your tributary drops belong to woe,
Which you, mistaking, offer up to joy.
My husband lives, that Tybalt would have slain;
And Tybalt's dead, that would have slain my husband:

http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/views/plays/play_view.php?WorkID=romeojuliet&Act=3&Scene=2&Scope=scene

i like how she sort of argues that tybalt would have done the same. that it's just the way their world goes. but also of course they are already married, so she is basically having to defend him. but still  it's interesting how supportive the nurse and the friar are of the relationship.
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Re: Loving a murderer

Post by MissG on July 15th 2016, 5:19 pm

If the story is good, I have no problem accepting it. There is a number of fictional book that I love where the love interest murders heroine's relatives/ friends/ tries to kill her, but then through no will of her own she changes him for the better by simply being herself. I think it's not as important to me where this "murderer" starts in the beginning of the story, but where he ends up, so I watch everything unfold and only then make my judgement.
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Re: Loving a murderer

Post by guardienne on July 15th 2016, 5:38 pm

i'm guessing it's to do with giving it weight as well. a lot of on-screen violence isn't given weight, han's murder is, however. so, we see a lot of murder throughout the film but it doesn't stick.

in R&J there is quite a lot of death, from the beginning onwards pretty much, the world is at war.

i think romeo is not changed by the murder as such, his circumstances only change.

and there is *fate* as per the cliff notes above.
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