Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by AnneNeville on Thu 31 Mar - 17:35

@spacebaby45678 I don't personally think he's a double agent now, but I wouldn't be surprised if he warned his mother about SKB. Perhaps in the next films, he'll do some undercover dirty against the FO as part of the redemption arc?

If he were a double agent already, who would know? Would Luke have purposefully sent him in? Or would he have just come up with the idea himself?
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 31 Mar - 17:39

@AnneNeville wrote:@spacebaby45678 I don't personally think he's a double agent now, but I wouldn't be surprised if he warned his mother about SKB. Perhaps in the next films, he'll do some undercover dirty against the FO as part of the redemption arc?

If he were a double agent already, who would know? Would Luke have purposefully sent him in? Or would he have just come up with the idea himself?

I imagine that, like other failed "double agents" in the EU, such as Ulic Qel-Droma (who killed his own brother and was redeemed, btw), he would have been working on his own or against other people's advice/orders. Rather hubristically thinking he had a handle on it and then... didn't.
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 31 Mar - 17:44

Darth Dingleberry wrote:

I understand we don’t all like the same things, but I confess I don’t quite understand why there’s so much resistance to the "double agent" theories even among Reylo shippers. Perhaps it’s because the term "double agent" implies something different… I don’t think he’d be working for the Resistance, let alone with their approval; if his goal was to do something for the ultimate good of the galaxy, I suspect nobody else knew about his plan.

I could easily imagine a brash young boy who thinks he knows better than everyone else and thinks he’s the only one who can solve a problem, because nobody else is listening and nobody understands, and then gets in way over his head. Starting with the best of intentions and ending up a tragic and reviled figure, each new act of darkness taking his soul another step away from salvation. How isn’t that dramatically compelling…?

It’s not that I don’t think character trajectories where a genuinely selfish man learns to be selfless, or a cold man learns to feel, a misguided man learns the error of his ways, and so on, aren’t satisfying. I do. But it’s hard to imagine how that would be enough in this particular case. Ren’s crimes are so grave and yet so ambiguously presented that, from my point of view, they need to be explained in some way - not to lessen their significance, but for them to make sense. Explaining isn’t the same as excusing.

We shall see. (I always say this nowadays, about everything…)

Like @Kalianah (with whom we have some theories which are a bit ”out there”, but we think they’re good ones Wink) I believe Ben not only had visions of Rey, but also troubling visions of the future. There would obviously be a precedent for that sort of thing, too, in Jacen Solo.

The bolded paragraph is a big part of what I feel went down for Ben/Kylo to end up where he is. I do think that there was some sort of active, awful betrayal though by Han (and possibly Luke) that played a big part in it, too--we've been getting hints about something bad that Han did that contributed to Ben turning.

I think that the resistance to the "double agent theory" by a lot of us is more a resistance to the term... "Double agent" makes me think of someone who was working for the "good guys" all along, possibly with Leia's knowledge, and I don't think that's what happened here.

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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by spacebaby45678 on Thu 31 Mar - 18:21

@AnneNeville wrote:@spacebaby45678 I don't personally think he's a double agent now, but I wouldn't be surprised if he warned his mother about SKB. Perhaps in the next films, he'll do some undercover dirty against the FO as part of the redemption arc?

If he were a double agent already, who would know? Would Luke have purposefully sent him in? Or would he have just come up with the idea himself?

I honestly can see all sides of this, one thing for sure is that no one is sure. I think this is JJ's tightest mystery box. However, my younger brother much younger, grew up on the EU. Never read them myself, but I remember taking him to buy them and reading the back synopsis, and he has a pretty good handle on how much Kylo is really like Jacen Solo. My personal fav pet theory  is that even Snoke is not the big bad, but in the EU the Yuuzhan Vong was the big bad that is actually coming as an outside invasion into the galaxy that would actually require, the Republic, the Resistance and the FO to join together. And, somehow Ben Solo  senses this danger and goes dark to prepare. However, it could really be that he was just a forgotten child and has a chip on his shoulder.
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by Kalianah on Thu 31 Mar - 19:01

Random thought before I head into my appointment, what if Ben was the person who sent the message that SKB was targeting Leia?

I doubt it, but...what if
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by Sylvia Snow on Thu 31 Mar - 19:18

@Kalianah wrote:Random thought before I head into my appointment, what if Ben was the person who sent the message that SKB was targeting Leia?

I doubt it, but...what if

Possibly, even though the novelization did not mention of how Lei and the Rebellion know about the attack, in the movie they let us know that "someone from the FO" send the message. It could be Kylo because there are only 3 people aware of the attack, Snoke, Hux and himself and I'm doubt Hux is the spy here but Kylo, there still good in him, he did not like using the weapon and he could still loves his mother. 

Just some funny thought, what if the scene where he is looking at the computer when that one poor soldier come to break the new about BB8, Finn and Rey escape, what if Kylo is "messing" around with the information and he's using his tantrum as an excuse to erase the evidence  dun dun dun  Sapristi Sapristi  Sapristi

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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by vaderito on Thu 31 Mar - 19:20

@Kalianah wrote:Random thought before I head into my appointment, what if Ben was the person who sent the message that SKB was targeting Leia?

I doubt it, but...what if

He could easily be but not because he's working for the Resistance. Just to warn his mother cause he loves her. I wish someone asks Pablo in a roundabout way, like, did resistance have a spy or how did they get the target info that was revealed only to 3 people and those in the Command Center. @Mrs Ben Solo any hope you formulate a neutral question and see what PH says?
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by Kalianah on Thu 31 Mar - 20:23

Oh I agree it's more likely Jr warns his mother rather than the resistance. I think even if he has good motives, Jr holds no love for the resistance.

The fact that she took the info to launch an attack might even have led to him betraying Han because it was another instance of his parents letting him down.
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by Kalianah on Thu 31 Mar - 22:00

@MoonFyre wrote:There’s nothing more powerful than genetics. If you really imagine the stakes of him in his youth having all these special powers and having your parents be absent during that process, with their own agendas, equally as selfish. He’s lost in the world that he was raised in and feels that he was abandoned by the people that he’s closest with. He’s angry because of that, I think. And he has a huge grudge on his shoulders.
- Adam Driver about Kylo Ren
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I think this quote is wildly important in TFA and greater context - it shows that his parents (and Luke) knew of his special ability or nature, Han might have been scared of it "he has too much Vader in him", Leia would've just tried to ignore it "I didn't tell you about Snoke", and Luke probably just tried to train him in the Light without acknowledging the inherent conflict within him. Couple that with absentee parents and a dark figure who seems to want to seduce you for his purposes...him becoming Kylo Ren out of bitterness and rage at both himself/his nature and his family.

He's trying to do the same thing Luke was with him - only instead of denying the Dark side and focusing just on Light, he reversed it because 'F**** my family' and Snoke, and Vader, etc.

He knows about Vader's last minute saving of Luke, so for all we know he could also loathe Luke for being Vader's weakness - for flipping a once great man, etc.

I just ADORE how much Adam has clearly thought and discussed the issue of Kylo Ren with JJ Abrams and I'm sure others. And the fact that he knows so much is another point in the favor of us getting more Kylo/Ben backstory in Ep 8. And why would they give us yet MORE backstory? To set up the redemption. If he was just going to be evil or dark, we already know enough about him to accept him as more complex than Vader.


Darth Dingleberry wrote:
The slant of Kylo Ren’s redemption arc will make all the difference, I think. It could be simply about a man making his way back from the darkness, or it could be that and turning the audience’s skewed perceptions on their head. The fact that there was so much ambiguity about him in TFA to begin with makes me convinced there must be a lot more to it than meets the eye.

Having a justifiable motive behind it all wouldn’t erase his crimes, but it would certainly help to make him and his situation more morally grey, paving the way to the Grey Jedi who has been to hell and back. The thing is: nothing will undo Han’s death (or LST’s death, or the death of the villagers, but patricide is the Big Thing). Ren wouldn’t stop being a controversial character even if he had the most noble motive in the world. There would still be people saying "cool motive, still murder". His redemption, and any potential Reylo development, would still be a risky and surprising move and demand a lot of forgiveness from everybody.

This is why I think they won't be able to convince the majority of the audience and that Kylo Ren will forever be one of the ultimate Byronic Heroes in film, because killing your father - a beloved character - on screen will be to some absolutely unforgivable no matter how much good he does later or why he did it.

And honestly? I think they would be okay with that scenario. I don't think they'll want to tie everything into a neat little 'okay he's good now everyone loves him' bow. They'll want to keep the Grey miasma around him - that little bit of edge. I think that's also why Rey is likely to dip a bit into the Dark side - because if they see this paragon of Light go a bit dark, audiences will be more willing to accept her (and her lover). Look at Anakin. People love Anakin, lol.

Darth Dingleberry wrote:
I understand we don’t all like the same things, but I confess I don’t quite understand why there’s so much resistance to the "double agent" theories even among Reylo shippers. Perhaps it’s because the term "double agent" implies something different… I don’t think he’d be working for the Resistance, let alone with their approval; if his goal was to do something for the ultimate good of the galaxy, I suspect nobody else knew about his plan.

Like @Kalianah (with whom we have some theories which are a bit ”out there”, but we think they’re good ones Wink) I believe Ben not only had visions of Rey, but also troubling visions of the future. There would obviously be a precedent for that sort of thing, too, in Jacen Solo.

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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by Search Your Feelings on Fri 1 Apr - 7:02

@spacebaby45678 wrote:
Darth Dingleberry wrote:
@Reynak wrote:
Darth Dingleberry wrote:Well, it does come down to personal preference, @MeadowofAshes and @vaderito - I've said it before but I don't think Ren originally having a motive that could be seen as good but then getting lost along the way would cheapen the character at all. It would add more tragedy to his fate, deepen his conflict, but not excuse his crimes.

As a matter of fact, I would find it rather disappointing if, after all the mystery and ambiguity we've been presented with, his original motivation turns out to have been just some version of "I want to be bad and powerful like grandpa Vader".

I feel the same, exactly like you. I wouldn't like to know he did it for power, to bring order to the galaxy or thing of the sort. I also hope his aim is good although his methods are horrible, but this wouldn't be an excuse for his crimes. It never is and I don't think he finds excusese for what he does either. He feels like s*** . Why would he insist on staying in the Dark Side, always pretneding, because he hates it and it shows when he unmasks? If he believed the Dark Side is the best option he woulnd't be so unhappy.

Exactly...

The slant of Kylo Ren’s redemption arc will make all the difference, I think. It could be simply about a man making his way back from the darkness, or it could be that and turning the audience’s skewed perceptions on their head. The fact that there was so much ambiguity about him in TFA to begin with makes me convinced there must be a lot more to it than meets the eye.

Having a justifiable motive behind it all wouldn’t erase his crimes, but it would certainly help to make him and his situation more morally grey, paving the way to the Grey Jedi who has been to hell and back. The thing is: nothing will undo Han’s death (or LST’s death, or the death of the villagers, but patricide is the Big Thing). Ren wouldn’t stop being a controversial character even if he had the most noble motive in the world. There would still be people saying "cool motive, still murder". His redemption, and any potential Reylo development, would still be a risky and surprising move and demand a lot of forgiveness from everybody.

But at the moment he’s unfathomable because it seems like he’s willfully trying very hard to be dark (just like an emo teen trying to be "edgy"), actively choosing evil, even though he has that natural impulse to the light. I would personally find his pull to the light quite unconvincing in the SW context if he didn’t have some kind of a hidden motive sustaining him over the years, even if he has already lost hope in it to a large extent. It shouldn’t be that hard to turn bad if that’s what you really want from life.

After everything he’s done, his reasons will have to be really good to sell his redemption to the audience. As we’ve seen from the redemption thread and elsewhere, most people can’t even imagine the existence of such reasons at this point.

I may be biased because I personally have a liking for narratives that hold a mirror to the audience and say: look how quick you were to judge. I would find it very satisfying. Scapegoat turned anti-hero type of trajectory doesn’t only challenge the characters, it challenges the audience in a startling manner.

I understand we don’t all like the same things, but I confess I don’t quite understand why there’s so much resistance to the "double agent" theories even among Reylo shippers. Perhaps it’s because the term "double agent" implies something different… I don’t think he’d be working for the Resistance, let alone with their approval; if his goal was to do something for the ultimate good of the galaxy, I suspect nobody else knew about his plan.

I could easily imagine a brash young boy who thinks he knows better than everyone else and thinks he’s the only one who can solve a problem, because nobody else is listening and nobody understands, and then gets in way over his head. Starting with the best of intentions and ending up a tragic and reviled figure, each new act of darkness taking his soul another step away from salvation. How isn’t that dramatically compelling…?

It’s not that I don’t think character trajectories where a genuinely selfish man learns to be selfless, or a cold man learns to feel, a misguided man learns the error of his ways, and so on, aren’t satisfying. I do. But it’s hard to imagine how that would be enough in this particular case. Ren’s crimes are so grave and yet so ambiguously presented that, from my point of view, they need to be explained in some way - not to lessen their significance, but for them to make sense. Explaining isn’t the same as excusing.

We shall see. (I always say this nowadays, about everything…)

Like @Kalianah (with whom we have some theories which are a bit ”out there”, but we think they’re good ones Wink) I believe Ben not only had visions of Rey, but also troubling visions of the future. There would obviously be a precedent for that sort of thing, too, in Jacen Solo.

I am one that believes that Kylo may be a double agent or is actually on the darkside for the greater good of the galaxy

That was always my "wishful thinking" canon lol. That Kylo was there to get closer to Snoke or for the greater good but got too caught up in it. But then I think of Han and Leia's dialogue and the actions of Kylo and the more it seems implausible to me Sad. It would be a really epic twist though. They just gotta explain it right. Laughing
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by Darth_Awakened on Fri 1 Apr - 7:50

I do not see Kylo being a double agent on conscious level.
But I do think he is a double agent against his will. Unconsciously.
I mean his very nature screams with all sorts of duality.
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by Saracene on Fri 1 Apr - 8:20

I'm sure that Kylo will always remain a controversial character, redemptive arc or not. Which is not a bad thing at all IMO. Personally I love the fact that they made him a genuinely dark character rather than a villain in name only.

I don't think that Kylo warned his mother in TFA, if only because it is IMO not a point in the story where he would do something overt like this. So far he's been portrayed as someone with an inner conflict, and there are scenes in the film that can be interpreted as ambiguous, such as when Kylo is watching the destruction from his personal shuttle, but sending a warning would be a clear act against Snoke and the First Order.
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by guardienne on Fri 1 Apr - 11:35

you know in the deleted MF scene, he calls his father 'han solo'... i thought that was off, given that it's a private moment and nobody would be there to witness his detachment.

what do you guys think? did he make a choice not to call him father pretty early on?
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by rey09 on Fri 1 Apr - 11:38

@guardienne Yes I agree, it sounded off. I really do wonder what was going through his mind. Sadly don't think it's in the book or in the script? But he seemed to be consumed by some feeling, crouching, clutching the seat.

But then again calling him "dad" may not been right either. I can't picture him saying father lol.
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by AnneNeville on Fri 1 Apr - 11:42

@Saracene wrote:I'm sure that Kylo will always remain a controversial character, redemptive arc or not. Which is not a bad thing at all IMO. Personally I love the fact that they made him a genuinely dark character rather than a villain in name only.

I don't think that Kylo warned his mother in TFA, if only because it is IMO not a point in the story where he would do something overt like this. So far he's been portrayed as someone with an inner conflict, and there are scenes in the film that can be interpreted as ambiguous, such as when Kylo is watching the destruction from his personal shuttle, but sending a warning would be a clear act against Snoke and the First Order.

IMHO he will be controversial for a while after this trilogy, but by the time X-XII are done, people will claim to have been loving him forever.
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by guardienne on Fri 1 Apr - 11:45

@rey09

can't picture it either, ... but it's interesting. i keep wondering how much snoke knows his private thoughts. like, how much has he conditioned himself not to show much ... and failed miserably in the process.... i also wonder whether the mask et al is snoke's idea or his...

i do love idle speculation.
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by rey09 on Fri 1 Apr - 11:54

@guardienne Yes I also wonder...he knew he had compassion for her. I wonder what else Snoke will sense...

Anyone ever wonder what Ben Solo was like? I feel like having two highly sarcastic/hilarious parents, he'd have to be the same! But obviously Kylo Ren is nothing like his parents personality wise. It would be so so interesting for Adam to play essentially two different people, yet they are one in the same. Hmmm
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by guardienne on Fri 1 Apr - 11:58

i am of two minds (haha) because on the one hand, i think kylo ren is a performance, on the other i think that kylo ren is also real, a real capacity of ben's.

i think both are possible.

but to me, for various reasons, he won't be able to ever rid himself of 'kylo' because of how he's acted whilst being him, but it never wholly genuine either...

i can't imagine ben, really, i think we see glimpses of a very serious and very emotional person. like, to me he is an essentially geeky kid, who was anxious and withdrawn and not a lot of fun. or that's how he felt received.
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by Gemini on Fri 1 Apr - 12:00

does anyone have that family portrait picture of Harrison, Carrie daisy and Adam?
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by jakkusun on Fri 1 Apr - 12:20

@Gemini wrote:does anyone have that family portrait picture of Harrison, Carrie daisy and Adam?

Link to source of this b&w edit
bonus:
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by AnneNeville on Fri 1 Apr - 12:47

Whose dog is it? Weird looking little thing.
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by jakkusun on Fri 1 Apr - 12:48

@AnneNeville wrote:Whose dog is it? Weird looking little thing.
lol it is Carrie's dog Gary. He is cute and hilarious.
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by rey09 on Fri 1 Apr - 12:49

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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by jakkusun on Fri 1 Apr - 13:00

@rey09 wrote:
ohhh haha @Gemini this is what you were looking for ^ I didn't see you also said Daisy.
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Re: Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Post by CienaRee on Fri 1 Apr - 13:01

I find it hilarious that people automatically assumed that meant Kylo and Rey were brother and sister.

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