"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

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"Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 28 Jul - 19:28

TFA featured the famous vision sequence, dubbed the "Force Back" by the script and members of production. However, it is subtly hinted throughout the film that other ancient "relics" might also have granted people Force Backs, including Darth Vader's melted mask and the mysterious saber that can be seen in Kylo Ren's left hand only in the final trailer for the film.

Kylo Ren attempts to communicate with Vader's mask, requesting that it "show [him] the power of the darkness." It's possible he is referring to a Force Back he once experienced from the mask.



Rey enters her Force Back by touching Anakin's lightsaber



Kylo looks up at Rey after seeming to be in a daze. In the trailer he is shown holding an unknown lightsaber, but this was omitted from the final version of the film. Some speculate that it could be Obi-Wan's lightsaber, tying into the theory that Rey may be biologically related to Obi-Wan. Just as Rey received a vision about Kylo from his grandfather's saber, could Kylo have received one about Rey from her grandfather's?



Rian Johnson has also revealed that he was inspired by Raiders of the Lost Arch, which features many ancient relics. TFA plays strongly on this theme of relics, with new characters interacting what old recognizable artifacts throughout the film. Rey herself is a "scavenger", another word for a treasure hunter. Is it possible that relics are thrusting characters into "Force Backs" beyond just Rey, and could Kylo potentially having a vision of Rey explain their strange Force-related connection?
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by Gemini on Thu 28 Jul - 19:33

Thanks for making a thread about my recent theory

This is how it plays out as a full scene

They are basically sharing the same vision when they touch a light saber somewhere..I dont think they are both touching a lightsaber at the same time though. Kylo has done this in the past at some point whilst hunting for relics and Rey is seeing the moment when he gets the saber unfold and she also sees the moment he gets lifted into the vision They seem to have decided to cut the moment in the day time and also not show you that Ren has a lightsaber in his hand in the final cut of the film. What we are getting is the TAIL END of the entire scene (which I think we may see in episode 8 ). I want to state that although its not in the final film, they have done something which is called cheating the shot. They have not re-shot it and shown you that he has no saber in his hand or digitally edited it out...instead they have just cut it out of the frame by using a shot which does not allow you to see his hands. Which means they can go back to this moment later and people cant say "hey it wasnt there in TFA!" because it may still be there, you just cant see it in the frame.

So the scene as a whole


1. The novel, the fight in the day time, grabbing a saber, everything turns to night and rain and clouds and the 7 KOR appear this change of day into night and rain is falling indicates a transition between past and the future event.

2. He stabs dude in the back....OOOOUUUCCHH


Grabs the saber here??

3. Lingers for a moment..just standing there holding 2 sabers...it looks like something is happening/passing through him whilst holding this, a vision is emerging and hes seeing things








4. and then BAM he suddenly sees:






But he sees this:


and then this:



WHICH EXPLAINS THIS:

The two (on Jakku) were accompanied by a girl

What did you say motha F******!


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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by vaderito on Thu 28 Jul - 19:37

Moreover, Aftermath Life Debt reveals that Palpatine ordered excavations on Jakku in search of the Dark Side source or something. We know that Luke is searching for the First Jedi Temple, so that would count as relic hunting too. I just find it interesting that both Palp and Luke were looking for the beginning of it all (Luke - the Temple, Palp - the source).
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 28 Jul - 19:39

I personally love the idea of relics influencing visions on those chosen by the Force, and I think it would be amazing to see even more interaction between the old and new in the ST! As I said in the opening post, Rey herself is essentially a play on a treasure hunter, and there is a lovely theme to be found here with regards to fans embracing the new trilogy and letting go of those "old relics" and whatever past - or perhaps even childhood! they represent.
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 28 Jul - 19:47

There is definitely a theme of relic-hunting in canon materials. Other examples:

The Acolytes of the Beyond are also after (Dark Side) relics.

Lor San Tekka was a relic hunter.

Then there's Sarco Plank, the character who inexplicably got a TFA action figure: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sarco_Plank

Kylo's own lightsaber obviously isn't a relic, as such, but as it was modelled after an ancient lightsaber, he probably needs to have come across the original (or the description of one) at some point.

His mask might possibly be a relic of some sort as well, or made after an ancient model.

And so on...
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Thu 28 Jul - 19:54

@Darth Dingbat wrote:There is definitely a theme of relic-hunting in canon materials. Other examples:

The Acolytes of the Beyond are also after (Dark Side) relics.

Lor San Tekka was a relic hunter.

Then there's Sarco Plank, the character who inexplicably got a TFA action figure: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sarco_Plank

Kylo's own lightsaber obviously isn't a relic, as such, but as it was modelled after an ancient lightsaber, he probably needs to have come across the original (or the description of one) at some point.

His mask might possibly be a relic of some sort as well, or made after an ancient model.

And so on...
@Darth Dingbat
And Rey and Kylo are also plays on this as well, with Kylo taking the place of a "relic" (playing dress-up as Darth Vader and thinking the Empire had it more right than the New Republic), and Rey being that fresh-faced, ready to step out in to the world, belonging-lies-ahead character. She had a miniature arc that partly revolved around beginning to let go of her past and embrace her future.

Jakku in itself is covered in old ships and parts from the days of the Empire.

Han, Luke and Leia could even be considered relics. xD
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by vaderito on Thu 28 Jul - 20:00

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I personally love the idea of relics influencing visions on those chosen by the Force, and I think it would be amazing to see even more interaction between the old and new in the ST! As I said in the opening post, Rey herself is essentially a play on a treasure hunter, and there is a lovely theme to be found here with regards to fans embracing the new trilogy and letting go of those "old relics" and whatever past - or perhaps even childhood! they represent.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I think that Raiders reference is connected to something very big because, when you think about it, Raiders was about finding the Arc of Covenant, so big Biblical thing. Luke is looking for the First Jedi temple, again, big biblical thing in SW universe. And than Palp was looking for the Dark Side source, another big biblical thing in SW universe. So this is shaping up to be something much bigger than we thought. And it's possible that only Rey and Kylo, our Adam and Eve of SW, can access/tap into/open some or both of those big things.
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 28 Jul - 20:26

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:There is definitely a theme of relic-hunting in canon materials. Other examples:

The Acolytes of the Beyond are also after (Dark Side) relics.

Lor San Tekka was a relic hunter.

Then there's Sarco Plank, the character who inexplicably got a TFA action figure: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sarco_Plank

Kylo's own lightsaber obviously isn't a relic, as such, but as it was modelled after an ancient lightsaber, he probably needs to have come across the original (or the description of one) at some point.

His mask might possibly be a relic of some sort as well, or made after an ancient model.

And so on...
@Darth Dingbat
And Rey and Kylo are also plays on this as well, with Kylo taking the place of a "relic" (playing dress-up as Darth Vader and thinking the Empire had it more right than the New Republic), and Rey being that fresh-faced, ready to step out in to the world, belonging-lies-ahead character. She had a miniature arc that partly revolved around beginning to let go of her past and embrace her future.

Jakku in itself is covered in old ships and parts from the days of the Empire.

Han, Luke and Leia could even be considered relics. xD
@FrolickingFizzgig

Yup, to all of these. I also wonder, if given the direction of the new canon books, if Ben/Kylo being a living Vader relic is going to play into his fall/turn.

I don't have a cohesive theory put together, but given that the Vader news broke when Ben was off with Luke, and that the new canon books have made a big deal about Vader worshippers/relic hunters, I can't help but think that some of those Vader devotees went in search of Vader's son and grandson.

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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by Gemini on Thu 28 Jul - 20:26

Ok to go into detail. What set me off on this was a Tweet by star wars twitter asking us to think about what Darth Vader may have done with Obi Wans light saber, then the following thursday they drew attention to the vision Rey gets when she touched Anakins saber.



I have known about Ren holding a saber in the trailer for a long time, I thought it may be Obi wans or Lukes but I just didnt connect anything so I felt that it was not important.

This tweet made me look at the GIF of Ren holding the saber and I was looking at his body language and I realized something.

I work in films, in editing, directing and behind the camera  and have a pretty good mental recollection of sequence of a film and can place shots and animated scenes mentally in my mind and see them in sequence as if playing out in one continuous scene. Its the kind of thing you need when shooting. To have a good mental recollection of sequence.

What you have in sequence if you span across the novel and the trailer and finally the film is what I believe to be a full scene which we are only seeing a part of in the final film.

1. The novel, there is a fight in the day time on a battlefield between what seems to be Kylo Ren and someone else, a saber is in the ground and a hand grasps it from the ground, then rain and clouds arrive and night time. This is very reminiscent of Joan of Arc who found a sword in a battlefield amongst the grass, everything turns to wind and clouds  and rain and day turns to night and she sees a vision of an Angel. This sets her on her path.

from the novel:

The wall had become dry grass, nearby a lightsaber slammed into the ground, a missed thrust, a statement of power- a hand appeared to pull it upward. Day became night, sky ominous and filled with rain, cold and chilling to the bone"

I think Kylo Ren grasps this saber and then gets a vision, day turns to night and rain and Ren sees Rey..she has been portrayed as an angel in the vision sequence with wings behind her








I'll post the following parts later


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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by vaderito on Thu 28 Jul - 20:30

@Gemini well, Sith, this Joan of Arc thing is amazing. cheers queen Carry on.

perhaps he's her angel too, dark/fallen angel but angel nonetheless? Angels are painted as warriors in some artwork, with full armor, helmets, etc. Michael's a warrior angel.







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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by Gemini on Thu 28 Jul - 20:41

does anyone have the image of Rey with angel wings behind her?
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 28 Jul - 20:43

The Joan of Arc comparison is very interesting! That never even occurred to me, and I know the time period very well.

I should add that Kylo having visions (of Rey, and/or other visions) has actually been speculated about a lot, but not the theory about Obi-Wan's lightsaber. The popular theory that most of you will know is that Kylo owned Anakin's lightsaber once and got visions by touching it, just like Rey. And of course Kylo owning that saber is more than just a random theory because (a) "that lightsaber belongs to me" and (b) according to the shooting schedule (I think? or was the source something else?) Maz stole that lightsaber from the Knights of Ren. (Unless the story has changed since then, of course.)

The question would be, when and how did Kylo come in possession of it? Did he have it as Ben Solo, or did he get it from the Knights of Ren after he joined? The Acolytes of the Beyond were looking for Vader's lightsaber - not sure if they were interested in Anakin's, but I think it's possible that the KOR or some related group were actively looking for Vader relics and somehow found Anakin's lightsaber. I think that's more likely than the lightsaber randomly ending up back in Luke's hands, but who knows.

And of course, in an earlier version of the story, Anakin's lightsaber (and not the map) was supposedly the MacGuffin that was found on Jakku...
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by vaderito on Thu 28 Jul - 20:47

@Gemini wrote:does anyone have the image of Rey with angel wings behind her?
@Gemini

Easter Eggs Thread.

@Darth Dingbat the fact that Kylo gets worked up over Anakin's saber and not Vader's one is a dead giveaway that he's going to be redeemed. It's a small detail that's flying over people's heads but it's a detail nonetheless. cause the whole point of his Vader obsession is that he knows that Vader turned against Emperor, aka became Anakin again (though I never bought that division), and rejects Anakin. But at the same time, desires that saber which may have slain Younglings but is still the symbol of good Anakin not bad Vader (that would be the red saber). ironically, Anakin didn't give a crap about various sabers he nonchalantly lost and would be puzzled at such importance given to this one or any for the matter.
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by BastilaBey on Thu 28 Jul - 20:57

There seems to be an element of relic hunting in Rebels, too. Ezra stumbled across a crossguard saber which, while clearly a nod to Kylo's own, was part of him learning about the scourge of Malachor. And him retrieving the sith holochron is sure to have repercussions going forward, potentially influencing him to be tempted by the darkside? What was that voice he heard in the temple?

I have always loved the idea that Kylo saw visions of Rey just as she saw him, and the saber connection would be an intriguing explanation. I wonder if they ever will explain why he was so interested in the girl he's 'heard so much about', considering it really had only been two mentions of her Laughing
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by Gemini on Thu 28 Jul - 21:01

Joan is convinced by that old man that what she saw was a lie and then he has her burned at the stake (if I remember correctly)


Once Snoke has what he wants he'll crush you
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by Sylvia Snow on Thu 28 Jul - 21:36

In my opinion there's this repeating theme of death and rebirth playing through out the movie, we have the ashes which immediately make many think of the legend Phoenix, Vader is long dead but his role is currently taken by his grandson Kylo who also own the burned of Vader, the FO rises from the ashes of the Empire, etc. Not to mention, the winter of their surroundings is also highly symbolic due to the fact that winter is celebrates by many religious, even date back to Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greek and Ancient Rome. And winter is almost always celebrate the death and rebirth which is an associates with Winter Solstice, where people of the Northern latitudes become troubled as the sun sank lower in the sky and would leave them in permanent darkness and coldness. After the the passage of Winter Solstice, people would celebrate as they continue to hope on as the life giving sun return to the sky, which is what literally happened on the SKB
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by SanghaRen on Thu 28 Jul - 22:23

If we go with the relics, maybe you need certain relics to access whatever in the Jedi Temple. Maybe Vader was hiding stuff from the Emperor and had a plan to retrieve whatever from the Jedi Temple by accumulating relics. And maybe that's what Kylo wants to finish. And maybe that sounds too much like something we already saw. Now I see Rey as Lara Croft O_O I love the old female Indiana Jones like Lara Croft by the way. Not the new surviving one.

I do like the idea of relics a lot. My little headcanon is that they are keeping Obi for that relic/Jedi Temple story. That he knew a great deal about the Jedi Temple but had no time to tell Luke, at least not when he was still breathing. The ancient Jedis being the keepers of something big, force-related. I have no idea what it is and have no idea how it could play out. But re-telling the story of the force and what we think we know about it is to me an interesting perspective.

And Adam/Eve, (fallen) angels? I love biblical stories. Twisted ones preferably.

Edit:

I wonder if Ransolm's passion for Empire relics was part of the one pager given to Claudia Gray or she invented that one. I'd bet on part of the one pager.
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 28 Jul - 22:36

@SanghaRen wrote:*snip*

I wonder if Ransolm's passion for Empire relics was part of the one pager given to Claudia Gray or she invented that one. I'd bet on part of the one pager.
@SanghaRen

I remember reading somewhere (but don't remember where) that Rian Johnson had a lot of input into Ransolm Casterfo's character.

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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by IoJovi on Thu 28 Jul - 22:39

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SanghaRen wrote:*snip*

I wonder if Ransolm's passion for Empire relics was part of the one pager given to Claudia Gray or she invented that one. I'd bet on part of the one pager.
@SanghaRen

I remember reading somewhere (but don't remember where) that Rian Johnson had a lot of input into Ransolm Casterfo's character.
@ISeeAnIsland

Not just Rian Johnson, but LucasFilm as a whole. It shows too - I loved that character; highly nuanced and the parallels to Ben Solo were uncanny. I loved that!

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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by vaderito on Fri 29 Jul - 1:07

@Sylvia Snow wrote:In my opinion there's this repeating theme of death and rebirth playing through out the movie, we have the ashes which immediately make many think of the legend Phoenix, Vader is long dead but his role is currently taken by his grandson Kylo who also own the burned of Vader, the FO rises from the ashes of the Empire, etc. Not to mention, the winter of their surroundings is also highly symbolic due to the fact that winter is celebrates by many religious, even date back to Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greek and Ancient Rome. And winter is almost always celebrate the death and rebirth which is an associates with Winter Solstice, where people of the Northern latitudes become troubled as the sun sank lower in the sky and would leave them in permanent darkness and coldness. After the the passage of Winter Solstice, people would celebrate as they continue to hope on as the life giving sun return to the sky, which is what literally happened on the SKB
@Sylvia Snow

this is amazing!  cheers queen
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 29 Jul - 2:36

@SanghaRen wrote:If we go with the relics, maybe you need certain relics to access whatever in the Jedi Temple. Maybe Vader was hiding stuff from the Emperor and had a plan to retrieve whatever from the Jedi Temple by accumulating relics. And maybe that's what Kylo wants to finish. And maybe that sounds too much like something we already saw. Now I see Rey as Lara Croft O_O I love the old female Indiana Jones like Lara Croft by the way. Not the new surviving one.

I do like the idea of relics a lot. My little headcanon is that they are keeping Obi for that relic/Jedi Temple story. That he knew a great deal about the Jedi Temple but had no time to tell Luke, at least not when he was still breathing. The ancient Jedis being the keepers of something big, force-related. I have no idea what it is and have no idea how it could play out. But re-telling the story of the force and what we think we know about it is to me an interesting perspective.

And Adam/Eve, (fallen) angels? I love biblical stories. Twisted ones preferably.

Edit:

I wonder if Ransolm's passion for Empire relics was part of the one pager given to Claudia Gray or she invented that one. I'd bet on part of the one pager.
@SanghaRen
This is one of those things I don't talk about because I think it's "too good to happen", but my absolute ideal ST "Force Plot" would involve Rey and Kylo as reluctant allies on some ginormous treasure or relic hunt revolving around the origins of the Jedi, the dark side, the light and the true nature of the Force. I think it would be amazing if they had to travel from temple to temple for something, discovering secrets along the way. I guess I'm just a sucker for journeys, real or metaphorical, and a dynamic like Rey and Kylo's serving as the backdrop for this would be just magical IMO. I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's been a secret dream of mine since Han first mentioned Ahch-To as the place where the Jedi came to be.
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by snufkin on Fri 29 Jul - 3:14

Aw man, I love this stuff because the childhood movie I've continued to love (sorry, Star Wars but I have to be honest) Raiders of the Lost Ark. I watched the WGA interview after seeing TFA in late February and the "what if the Nazis regrouped in Argentina" comment and the collateral information about the KoR being relic hunters made my brain go:

1) Like the creepy Nazi relic hunters in Raiders?!

and 2) ZOMG creepy relic hunters, character who is being forced into almost being a proxy or (Dune nerd alert) ghola of his grandfather with Bloodline as the title of the tie-in novel?! He's being treated as a living relic by the bad guys!

Plus the Argentina part made me think of the old Ira Levin novel my parents had when I was growing up, the Boys from Brazil, where Josef Mengele and other Nazis hiding in Argentina have a Hitler cloning program. There's also a movie version where Gregory Peck is cast against type as Mengele and Lawrence Olivier is the Nazi hunter chasing him down.  So that part plus "the Empire needs Children" /Lost Children leads gets my brain spinning about how both he and Rey could be relic hunters and potentially living relics.
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by snufkin on Fri 29 Jul - 5:13

Also the angel/vision part @Gemini mentioned above,  there's been a couple discussion threads before about how possibly his whole weird courtly behavior towards her (besides just the being awkward around cute girl and whatever idealogical hold Snoke's got over him) was that he keeps after her because he thinks that he's rescuing her from the Resistance. You know, whether she likes it or not.
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by Gemini on Fri 29 Jul - 9:36

What if originally after the scuffle for the lightsaber, Kylo Ren actually originally stabbed Salad Bowl with the other saber he grabs from the ground and not his own, then he gets a vision..and this was removed/changed?

The scene with day turning to night flows very seemelessley with the moment where Ren appears to get a vision after stabbing Bowl.

In the kids novel you see a flash of red and then a saber getting pulled from the ground right? Does it seem to indicate 2 sabers?

I realise that maybe its not the saber he is wrenching from the ground though, but he does pick it up after stabbing Salad Bowl and possibly its just something not shown yet in the sequence we have been provided with..I dont think Salad Bowl is from the future rain scene..this is Rey seeing the past and Rens transitional moment into this rain scene after he picks up the saber.
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Re: "Force Backs" from Ancient Relics

Post by MeadowofAshes on Fri 29 Jul - 10:01

Raiders reference got me all kinds of excited. Childhood favorites FTW! I was hoping they'd go digging around in the First Jedi Temple anyway, but come on, you know they have to now.

We already know I'm a big fan of "That lightsaber - it belonged to Ben!" and showed him a vision of Rey. I'm also intrigued by @Gemini 's Rey Kenobi theory involving Old Ben's lightsaber.

Now here's a weird one. What if it was Vader's helmet that showed Kylo a vision of a girl? "Show me again, the power of the Darkness..." Did that creepy old thing give him a Forceback in which he and a girl ruled the galaxy as Renperor and Reyempress? He's all about personal interest so yeah, Supreme Leader is wise except when Kylo decides to do what's on Kylo's agenda. And it appears he was willing to abandon Snoke altogether when he realized Rey was the awakening, because really what was he going to do? Keep her as his own protege with Snoke's permission? I don't think so. So maybe the helmet, being a dark side relic, showed him a version of the future in which he and Rey rule the galaxy together. Of course we know the Force has other plans if we accept them as First Jedi Adam and Eve, but the dark side could have been calling him to a similar destiny with Rey but the destructive version rather than the creative A&E version.
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MeadowofAshes
Force Ghost
Force Ghost

Messages : 1411
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Date d'inscription : 2016-03-26
Age : 31

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