A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by Piper Maru on Sat 4 Mar - 18:32

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:More about the "shadow" (I'm not a psychologist, but I studied Freud / Jung / Lacan for my grad thesis):

- The shadow is considered the black side of someone's personality.
- The shadow is an unconscious process and its contents are unknown to the conscious self.
- The shadow personifies everything that the subject refuses to acknowledge about himself
- The shadow is frequently equaled with the Freudian unconscious, which is made of repressed wishes.
- Freud linked these repressed contents mainly with sexual fantasies.
- The shadow is irrational, animalistic and violent.
- The shadow may appear in dreams and visions in a myriad of forms.
- Interactions with the shadow can be enlightning and life-changing. They're always intense.
- At some point, you will reach a state of identification with the shadow.
- The eventual encounter with the shadow is one of the central points of the process of "individuation", an achievement of self-actualization through a process of integrating the conscious and the unconscious.
- When an individual sees the shadow for the first time, he becomes aware of (and often ashamed of) the qualities and impulses he denies in himself but can plainly see in others.
- The individual sometimes can assimilate and "merge" with the shadow. When this happens, the analytical process truly begins.
- The shadow is a constant. Once you see it, it'll be with you for the rest of your life.

On fiction, the concept of 'shadow' can often be see in the Evil Counterpart trope, basically when the hero and the antagonist are two sides of the same coin, and one is evil.

So, I'm sorry, but that shadow is not Vader. It's Kylo Ren.
@Piper Maru

I don't think you were on the board yet when this news came out, but you are right on target ... because said that he read Jung and Robert Bly (who is all about Jungian intergration to prepare for TLJ). I don't have a copy of the tweet because I am on my phone, but it's out there.

Also, I completely agree with the talk above about Rey and Kylo switching roles. This kind of thing will be part of the reason she will be able to see him differently and eventually love him ... because she could have been him if things worked out differently. She *needs* some kind of recognition of that from somewhere for her to really get him, understand him and eventually be on an equal footing in any relationship.
@SoloSideCousin

Yes, I'm quite new to the fandom. I started to look for meta and a forum to discuss these things two months ago lol. Good I'm on the right track. The idea of Kylo being Rey's archetypal shadow is fascinating.
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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by Helix on Sat 4 Mar - 18:44

Worst TLJ opening would be Rey saying "Daddy?" and Luke saying "My baby girl.". I'm sure fans out there want this.

It is pretty obvious Rey isn't going to be seeing her parents again, Maz said so herself. At least they aren't coming back for her and probably aren't worth her time if they're just going to abandon her with Plutt.
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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 4 Mar - 19:29

@Piper Maru wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:More about the "shadow" (I'm not a psychologist, but I studied Freud / Jung / Lacan for my grad thesis):

- The shadow is considered the black side of someone's personality.
- The shadow is an unconscious process and its contents are unknown to the conscious self.
- The shadow personifies everything that the subject refuses to acknowledge about himself
- The shadow is frequently equaled with the Freudian unconscious, which is made of repressed wishes.
- Freud linked these repressed contents mainly with sexual fantasies.
- The shadow is irrational, animalistic and violent.
- The shadow may appear in dreams and visions in a myriad of forms.
- Interactions with the shadow can be enlightning and life-changing. They're always intense.
- At some point, you will reach a state of identification with the shadow.
- The eventual encounter with the shadow is one of the central points of the process of "individuation", an achievement of self-actualization through a process of integrating the conscious and the unconscious.
- When an individual sees the shadow for the first time, he becomes aware of (and often ashamed of) the qualities and impulses he denies in himself but can plainly see in others.
- The individual sometimes can assimilate and "merge" with the shadow. When this happens, the analytical process truly begins.
- The shadow is a constant. Once you see it, it'll be with you for the rest of your life.

On fiction, the concept of 'shadow' can often be see in the Evil Counterpart trope, basically when the hero and the antagonist are two sides of the same coin, and one is evil.

So, I'm sorry, but that shadow is not Vader. It's Kylo Ren.
@Piper Maru

I don't think you were on the board yet when this news came out, but you are right on target ... because said that he read Jung and Robert Bly (who is all about Jungian intergration to prepare for TLJ). I don't have a copy of the tweet because I am on my phone, but it's out there.

Also, I completely agree with the talk above about Rey and Kylo switching roles. This kind of thing will be part of the reason she will be able to see him differently and eventually love him ... because she could have been him if things worked out differently. She *needs* some kind of recognition of that from somewhere for her to really get him, understand him and eventually be on an equal footing in any relationship.
@SoloSideCousin

Yes, I'm quite new to the fandom. I started to look for meta and a forum to discuss these things two months ago lol. Good I'm on the right track. The idea of Kylo being Rey's archetypal shadow is fascinating.
@Piper Maru

There is a thread someplace where we discussed Rian's tweet, (I'm sorry I missed saying his name in the first post), that contains links to Robert Bly discussing his book. I am still on my phone, but I will try to track it down when I get home because some of it might interest you with your already extant knowledge of Jung. Graduate thesis no less! I think you will be able to teach us! :-)
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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by Piper Maru on Sat 4 Mar - 21:05

Aww, you guys are the best! @SoloSideCousin, I googled some keywords (Rian Johnson + Jung + Bly) and I've found the tweets. But thanks for the help (and the mention that RJ is reading these books.)

This conversation inspired me so I wrote a meta. You can read it here.

I'm probably wrong about the whole thing, but I definitely think Rey is going to go DARK in the next movies.
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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by Irina de France on Sat 4 Mar - 21:07

@Piper Maru wrote:Aww, you guys are the best! @SoloSideCousin, I googled some keywords (Rian Johnson + Jung + Bly) and I've found the tweets. But thanks for the help (and the mention that RJ is reading these books.)

This conversation inspired me so I wrote a meta. You can read it here.

I'm probably wrong about the whole thing, but I definitely think Rey is going to go DARK in the next movies.
@Piper Maru

Read it and reblogged it! Great stuff! Wink
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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sat 4 Mar - 22:37

@Piper Maru wrote:Aww, you guys are the best! @SoloSideCousin, I googled some keywords (Rian Johnson + Jung + Bly) and I've found the tweets. But thanks for the help (and the mention that RJ is reading these books.)

This conversation inspired me so I wrote a meta. You can read it here.

I'm probably wrong about the whole thing, but I definitely think Rey is going to go DARK in the next movies.
@Piper Maru

I can't wait to read your meta!!!

Here's the link for the "Rian inspired by Jung" thread.  We'd love to hear your thoughts on the Jung book chosen and the Bly recordings if you're able to listen to them. :-)

http://reylo.skyforum.net/t334-rian-johnson-s-psychological-inspirations-for-viii-jung-bly-and-the-human-shadow?highlight=Jung


Oh and I'm all about Rey going dark or at least darkish.  It will layer her so much more, give Kylo a great mirror of himself and a chance to at least to "try to make things right" for her even if he risks himself, and tbh, I think DR is at her best when she plays the more "edgy" Rey ... like she does with Kylo. :-)
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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by Darth Dementor on Sun 5 Mar - 11:28

New clue about Rey's upbringing on Jakku: the rations Unkar Platt sold to her were scavenged from Imperial ships. This could be argued, in conjuction with her sleeping in an AT-AT; raiding Imperial parts; and eating food rations from from Emperor Palpatine's army, that Rey was living off of the dark side all her life. After all the war Palps and Vader started created the infrastructure that Rey grew up in. Another sign that she was would have grown up on the dark side if she wasn't abandoned on Jakku, for whatever reason.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inverse.com/amp/article/28655-rey-survival-the-last-jedi-force-awakens-star-wars-jakku

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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by WhatGirl on Sun 5 Mar - 11:52

@Darth Dementor wrote:New clue about Rey's upbringing on Jakku: the rations Unkar Platt sold to her were scavenged from Imperial ships. This could be argued, in conjuction with her sleeping in an AT-AT; raiding Imperial parts; and eating food rations from from Emperor Palpatine's army, that Rey was living off of the dark side all her life. After all the war Palps and Vader started created the infrastructure that Rey grew up in. Another sign that she was would have grown up on the dark side if she wasn't abandoned on Jakku, for whatever reason.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inverse.com/amp/article/28655-rey-survival-the-last-jedi-force-awakens-star-wars-jakku
@Darth Dementor

I'd love it if she had Imperial ties. But without their direct influence, she chose a different path.
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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by Darth Dementor on Sun 5 Mar - 12:43

@WhatGirl wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:New clue about Rey's upbringing on Jakku: the rations Unkar Platt sold to her were scavenged from Imperial ships. This could be argued, in conjuction with her sleeping in an AT-AT; raiding Imperial parts; and eating food rations from from Emperor Palpatine's army, that Rey was living off of the dark side all her life. After all the war Palps and Vader started created the infrastructure that Rey grew up in. Another sign that she was would have grown up on the dark side if she wasn't abandoned on Jakku, for whatever reason.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inverse.com/amp/article/28655-rey-survival-the-last-jedi-force-awakens-star-wars-jakku
@Darth Dementor

I'd love it if she had Imperial ties. But without their direct influence, she chose a different path.
@WhatGirl

It ties in with the opposing parrallels; Ben was born with parents who fought on the light side but ended up on the dark; Rey was born with parents who fought on the dark but ended up on the light.

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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by snufkin on Sun 5 Mar - 14:55

The 'garbage' references are a callback to the OT, but between that word and Han and Finn calling Jakku a junkyard, it's meant to tie in with how Rey's deepest insecurity of seeing herself as refuse that was left behind. I do think that her parents got involved in something with ties to whatever Snoke and the FO had been setting up in the shadows and that's what killed them. And she's what's literally been left behind as what remains. The new novels certainly have made the point of showing lower level people involved with the Empire who aren't sneering bad guys like Hux, but with good and sincere intentions. There's certainly more of that perspective being shown than the pathetic striver of the Bad Guy in Rogue One, who isn't even bad just kind of pathetic.
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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 5 Mar - 15:08

@snufkin wrote:The 'garbage' references are a callback to the OT, but between that word and Han and Finn calling Jakku a junkyard, it's meant to tie in with how Rey's deepest insecurity of seeing herself as refuse that was left behind. I do think that her parents got involved in something with ties to whatever Snoke and the FO had been setting up in the shadows and that's what killed them. And she's what's literally been left behind as what remains. The new novels certainly have made the point of showing lower level people involved with the Empire who aren't sneering bad guys like Hux, but with good and sincere intentions. There's certainly more of that perspective being shown than the pathetic striver of the Bad Guy in Rogue One, who isn't even bad just kind of pathetic.
@snufkin

That would fit with a line from Empire's End: "Even the most rotten fruit can leave behind seeds."

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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by snufkin on Sun 5 Mar - 15:20

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin wrote:The 'garbage' references are a callback to the OT, but between that word and Han and Finn calling Jakku a junkyard, it's meant to tie in with how Rey's deepest insecurity of seeing herself as refuse that was left behind. I do think that her parents got involved in something with ties to whatever Snoke and the FO had been setting up in the shadows and that's what killed them. And she's what's literally been left behind as what remains. The new novels certainly have made the point of showing lower level people involved with the Empire who aren't sneering bad guys like Hux, but with good and sincere intentions. There's certainly more of that perspective being shown than the pathetic striver of the Bad Guy in Rogue One, who isn't even bad just kind of pathetic.
@snufkin

That would fit with a line from Empire's End: "Even the most rotten fruit can leave behind seeds."

@ISeeAnIsland

I also think there's a tiny bit of a PM reference in how she ended up an orphaned scavenger in a place that nobody goes to, including Han when he was looking for the MF after it had been stolen

QUI-GON : ...moisture farms for the most part, but also a few indigenous tribes and scavengers. The few spaceports like this one are havens for those who do not wish to be found...

I'd bet money that even if they go the route in the next movie of having her struggle with the possibility of being abandoned by her parents, that she was left there out of desperation in order to protect her from whomever ended up killing them.
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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 6 Mar - 6:24

I wonder...

Has anybody read The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, the pseudohistorical work that has inspired many works of fiction - including The Da Vinci Code which was so inspired by it that it led to a plagiarism suit?

I haven't read it myself (nor have I seen or read The Da Vinci Code), but I've been curious for a long while now about the many elements in the new canon that are familiar from esoteric conspiracy theories... and there's this vague scenario forming in my brain.

You see, there's the Mediaeval apocalyptic legend of the Last Emperor - derived from the biblical last king - who unites the world against the forces of evil and then turns his kingdom over to God, as the last king is prophesied to do:
https://medapocalypse.wordpress.com/short-essays/empire/last-world-emperor/

One curious thing about these legends is that the king/emperor generally awakens. There are innumerable folktale versions of kings, emperors and other heroes who sleep in some remote place and awaken when they're most needed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_in_the_mountain

Now, I don't know to what extent The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail references the legends of the Last Emperor, but I understand it is about some supposed esoteric conspiracy to establish an Empire ruled by the descendant of an ancient Merovingian royal bloodline, supposedly descended from Christ himself. (And modern conspiracy theories - which, from the looks of it, tend to see Catholics as evil - seem to see this bloodline as satanic instead.) And just by a quick Google one can find a tangled mess of related conspiracy theories where ancient bloodlines, occult nobility, Illuminati, Templars, etc. etc. are apparently working towards the goal of re-establishing an Empire.

So what we know from canon is that there's an elite, with members like Lady Carise descended from the so-called Elder Houses, who are secretly associated with the First Order. The First Order's (whose name just happens to be reminiscent of New World Order) goal just happens to be to re-establish an Empire. The First Order's symbol just happens to be like the Black Sun symbol associated with the occult side of Nazism, as well as with neo-Templar cults; and there just happens to be a black-clad Space Templar with his order of knights in the mix. There are numerous creepy secret cults concerned with ancient occult secrets, and a black-and-white-clad Dubrovnik elite who seem both very rich and vaguely sinister, and whom I've jokingly called the "Space Bilderberg group" before. Heck, the mystery box itself is like an invitation to make up in-universe conspiracy theories.

See what I mean? In a fantasy context, this kind of apocalyptic conspiracy theory material actually makes for a fun plot. And there already is at least one actual conspiracy we know of - the birth of the First Order itself. People who were nominally working for the Republic were actually secretly banding together to re-establish an Empire. That's a big conspiracy, right there. And I suspect Snoke's real goals are an even bigger secret conspiracy, and the elite who think they're in control are just pieces in his chess game.

tl;dr version: I think in this kind of a possible scenario, Kylo may have been led to believe he is meant to be the prophesied Last Emperor whose job is to fight the coming "Antichrist" (and probably sacrifice himself in the process), but the Last Emperor is instead the girl whose name just happens to mean King. Whether that would make her a Palpatine or the descendant of some ancient bloodline I don't know. I just think that would be fascinating.

I admit this kind of thing would also make the Renperor thing slightly more palatable to me, as the goal would be one of resignation - to defend the world to fulfill the role of a prophecy, and then to "lay down his crown".
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Re: A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 6 Mar - 14:02

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I wonder...

Has anybody read The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, the pseudohistorical work that has inspired many works of fiction - including The Da Vinci Code which was so inspired by it that it led to a plagiarism suit?

I haven't read it myself (nor have I seen or read The Da Vinci Code), but I've been curious for a long while now about the many elements in the new canon that are familiar from esoteric conspiracy theories... and there's this vague scenario forming in my brain.

You see, there's the Mediaeval apocalyptic legend of the Last Emperor - derived from the biblical last king - who unites the world against the forces of evil and then turns his kingdom over to God, as the last king is prophesied to do:
https://medapocalypse.wordpress.com/short-essays/empire/last-world-emperor/

One curious thing about these legends is that the king/emperor generally awakens. There are innumerable folktale versions of kings, emperors and other heroes who sleep in some remote place and awaken when they're most needed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_in_the_mountain

Now, I don't know to what extent The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail references the legends of the Last Emperor, but I understand it is about some supposed esoteric conspiracy to establish an Empire ruled by the descendant of an ancient Merovingian royal bloodline, supposedly descended from Christ himself. (And modern conspiracy theories - which, from the looks of it, tend to see Catholics as evil - seem to see this bloodline as satanic instead.) And just by a quick Google one can find a tangled mess of related conspiracy theories where ancient bloodlines, occult nobility, Illuminati, Templars, etc. etc. are apparently working towards the goal of re-establishing an Empire.

So what we know from canon is that there's an elite, with members like Lady Carise descended from the so-called Elder Houses, who are secretly associated with the First Order. The First Order's (whose name just happens to be reminiscent of New World Order) goal just happens to be to re-establish an Empire. The First Order's symbol just happens to be like the Black Sun symbol associated with the occult side of Nazism, as well as with neo-Templar cults; and there just happens to be a black-clad Space Templar with his order of knights in the mix. There are numerous creepy secret cults concerned with ancient occult secrets, and a black-and-white-clad Dubrovnik elite who seem both very rich and vaguely sinister, and whom I've jokingly called the "Space Bilderberg group" before. Heck, the mystery box itself is like an invitation to make up in-universe conspiracy theories.

See what I mean? In a fantasy context, this kind of apocalyptic conspiracy theory material actually makes for a fun plot. And there already is at least one actual conspiracy we know of - the birth of the First Order itself. People who were nominally working for the Republic were actually secretly banding together to re-establish an Empire. That's a big conspiracy, right there. And I suspect Snoke's real goals are an even bigger secret conspiracy, and the elite who think they're in control are just pieces in his chess game.

tl;dr version: I think in this kind of a possible scenario, Kylo may have been led to believe he is meant to be the prophesied Last Emperor whose job is to fight the coming "Antichrist" (and probably sacrifice himself in the process), but the Last Emperor is instead the girl whose name just happens to mean King. Whether that would make her a Palpatine or the descendant of some ancient bloodline I don't know. I just think that would be fascinating.

I admit this kind of thing would also make the Renperor thing slightly more palatable to me, as the goal would be one of resignation - to defend the world to fulfill the role of a prophecy, and then to "lay down his crown".
@Darth Dingbat

Yes, the "laying down his crown" aspect always held a lot of appeal to me because (1) it would be extremely powerful and redemptive and would be very anti-dark side because it would be giving up power, (2) it would fit the sense that Kylo just seems so burdened, but I will go into that more in a minute, and (3) it would be Reverse Anakin and a complete repudiation of Vader's need for power.

Next, I agree that they seem to be mining some conspiracy theories for sure (I did read the DaVinci Code and looked up some of the legends he was working off of ... and yeah, the anti-Catholicism runs deep, smh :-( ). JJ set up the universe and if you've ever seen Alias you know that he can go to the pre-Modern era place for his conspiracy fodder.

On the Last Emperor thing, I've always had an inkling that Ben might have always been haunted by dreams and visions of some overarching mission he had to complete, even if he "needed to be cloaked in darkness" to complete it. In fact, with the way Leia describes him in Life Debt, he has the makings of being a powerful and perhaps prophesied figure ... hence Snoke's intense and early targeting ... because he wanted to eliminate/corrupt/co-opt the one who could defeat him. But then like the book Tarkin said, "the force fights back", and here comes Rey, the Last Empress so to speak.
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