Kylo could become stronger than Vader

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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by vaderito on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 4:03

@Jakku wrote:Maybe that's why Han referred to "One apprentice...a boy"?  Perhaps Kylo was the kid among all his trainees?

So, if Luke was training adults who retained attachments to family, friends, lovers, children...how would that work?
@Jakku

But Luke was a successful adult trainee. I don't see why he would consider himself a fluke and go back to training kids. 

A boy is more like how fathers think of their sons. Ben's always going to be his boy. And the said boy was 23 when he turned against Luke.

I want to share something about Luke. Early reliable source reports about the character claimed that he became so powerful and uncontrollable that he went into self-exile on an uninhabited planet so that he wouldn't hurt other people and that he could learn how to control his power. Apparently, in that version, he disappeared right after ROTJ. Now, you can see traces of it in Aftermath and Bloodline where they say he hasn't been seen for years, people think he's a myth. So it looks like the idea has always been that he lived away from Leia and Han. That also indicates that they didn't plan on giving him family (wife, child). 

Moreover, "uncontrollable super power" could translate into Hut Slaying.  Twisted Evil
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Jakku on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 4:12

Han did say "He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice, turned against him..."

We could interpret 'new generation' as just people who hadn't been Jedi before, but I think we're supposed to subliminally put 'new generation' and 'one boy' together as kids. Maybe that's deliberate misdirection?
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 4:16

As long as he can't hold up an entire ship he's not stronger than Vader IMO. Laughing
But I got the same impression as Pablo that at least when telepathy is concerned Kylo has definitely more talent than Vader.

That said, we haven't really seen him power up yet. Although nearly everyone who went to watch TFA for the first time was blown away by him holding up that laser in mid-air (+ the guy who shot it!).
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by vaderito on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 4:18

@Jakku wrote:Han did say "He was training a new generation of Jedi.  One boy, an apprentice, turned against him..."

We could interpret 'new generation' as just people who hadn't been Jedi before, but I think we're supposed to subliminally put 'new generation' and 'one boy' together as kids.  Maybe that's deliberate misdirection?
@Jakku

We'll see what happens. New generation could mean new generation = young or it could mean new generation = existing FS of various ages trained as the Jedi

I don't think it's misdirection as much as just a vague description that raises more questions. Like Snoke's "If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise". What does "the new Jedi mean"? Is it singular or plural? Is "new" just more Jedi or is "new" something new about them as in they are different from "old" Jedi?
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by SanghaRen on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 4:52

@vaderito wrote:@SanghaRen Kylo was manipulated by Snoke. That could have created disbalance.

True, but I could also see how while Ben was stable, Snoke could not reach him and when he started to be unbalanced, Snoke could breach through. I remember when Bloodline came out that there was some discussion about how old Ben was when he unraveled. I was on the team "brainwashed since birth" but in the meantime I could see a "brainwashed since pre-teens" scenario too because it does reflect the typical pre-teen state when you start taking in more external influences than only your family's influence. It would be a different story as brainwashed since childhood but could work as well. And that would mean that if Kylo regains stability, Snoke's influence would be reduced to white noise.

I don't believe they will go in the direction of Rey having tipped off the balance in the Force, but I do like to speculate on it. It would be dark and would take the GA by surprise. Rey (of light) in spite of her goodness is actually the one who caused the snowball effect. Ouch.

I still wonder though when does the Force start to really kick in. It's apparently there from the start in a person, but can you imagine if a baby already has a significant raw power and uses it? Looking at the movies, it seems as though the Force remains sort of semi-dormant until the person acknowledges it and taps into it consciously.

@Rimfaxe96

I am so hoping for a scene of Kylo freezing a ship. But apparently he's crashing his own ship on Ahch-To so he still needs practice Smile Uncle Luke? Force Ghost Yoda? Anyone to give him some advice?
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 5:48

@SanghaRen wrote:I am so hoping for a scene of Kylo freezing a ship. But apparently he's crashing his own ship on Ahch-To so he still needs practice Smile Uncle Luke? Force Ghost Yoda? Anyone to give him some advice?
@SanghaRen

Well, Pablo mentioned something about his skills as a pilot, so perhaps we'll see some of it (well, except for the landing on Ahch-To Laughing).
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by vaderito on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 5:51

@SanghaRen "There's been an awakening" sounds like Rey awakened at the moment, not that she was strong in the Force all her life. She said that MF trick was her first and that she didn't know how she did it. So "awakening" has something to do with her escalated rate of learning how to use it.

It's all very confusing. Most people think she was dropped on Jakku because she was a FS who needed protection but that doesn't quite jibe with "awakening". OTOH, she was seeing an island in the ocean which sounds like the Force was calling to her/was with her for quite awhile.

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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 5:57

I'll laugh about the limo thing for all time. ROFL
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Macha Ren on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 7:33

I am still very much in the camp that while Kylo may become stronger than Vader he is not a treat of any substance. You can't overthrow your master or take on the Resistance if you are a continual dumpster fire of inner conflict.

And per Pablo, he's not organized to even drive his own car.

He's totally going to back into the garbage cans out back crash on to Ahch-To.

Somewhere Han is rolling over in his grave.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Macha Ren on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 7:39

@vaderito wrote:
@Luke Browalker wrote:This requires two assumptions, which are not that unreasonable, IMO:
1. Leia has similar force potential to Luke
2. The force potential gap between Anakin and Luke/Leia is similar to the gap between Leia and Kylo.

Now,  we know that of regular force users, Anakin had the most potential. More potential than Yoda or Sidious. Lucas himself has said this. However, due to his severe injuries on Mustafar, he lost a lot of his force potential. Vader still was very powerful,  but nowhere near as powerful as he could have become.  Lucas has also said that Luke came close to reaching Anakin's potential. However,  Luke was not the chosen one,  and thus didn't reach the full potential of his father.  His force potential just wasn't as strong.

Now, if we look at Kylo, we can assume that at two generations removed from the chosen one,  Kylo has great force potential, a little less than Luke/Leia and less still than Anakin. However, Anakin lost a lot of force potential, and so we could also assume that Luke surpassed the power of Vader. As long as he doesn't endure and serious injuries, Kylo could also surpass Vader in terms of power. However,  I think Luke is probably the only one that can train him to that level.  If Snoke is capable, I don't think he's willing.
@Luke Browalker

Great thread. I want to point out that Snoke sees Kylo as "the ideal embodiment of the Force, a focal point of both light and dark side" That tells me that Kylo is unique and maybe even stronger than Anakin who was the son of the Force but not the ideal embodiment of the Force. When you think about it, embodiment of the Force is greater than strong with the Force. There has to be a reason why Kylo is defined as "ideal embodiment of the Force" not just unusually strong with it, huge midichlorian count, etc. 

Now what I'm thinking is this. What if Kylo is the product of the balance of the Force that Anakin brought when he destroyed the Sith? There must be the reason why he's different. And sure enough, he was born shortly after the Balance of the Force event.
@vaderito

This is why he was so important to Snoke. Kylo was never a weapon to be honed. He was a prize to be stolen and destroyed. He IS the balance in the Force, and if you corrupt that balance point, you tip the scales so to speak in your favor.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Darth Dementor on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 7:48

@vaderito wrote:
@Armadeus wrote:
@Luke Browalker wrote:First off, let's not get carried away.  Neither Kylo nor Rey are more powerful than Luke. That's just crazy talk.  If we ignore all the things that George Lucas himself said about Luke, then let's not forget that even Snoke is scared of Luke.  If there was a saber fight, Luke would toy with either of them.  

I don't think neither Kylo nor Rey have as much force potential as Luke, who was the son of the chosen one, and certainly not as much as Anakin, but Kylo has more potential than Vader.
@Luke Browalker

Absolutely. At this point Luke is the most powerful Force user in the history of the galaxy (Lucas' words). He wouldn't even need a lightsaber to toy with them, just use the Force to (if I may quote Mike Carey's Lucifer comic) 'put them among the things that were.'

But undoubtedly the potential is there.
@Armadeus

This. Luke wasn't his current level of power when he was young. So it's only natural that Kylo and Rey have potential to surpass that but that doesn't mean they know how to use that potential to get there. So Luke wins cause power + know-how. Of course he can kick their butts cause he can control his power while they don't know what they can do or how to control it. We've seen that Kylo the Blaster Stopper totally flopped on SKB because he was unfocused, deranged and out of control of his emotions, his power, his everything. he couldn't freeze Rey but that attempt turned into a standard Force push, he couldn't pull a LS out of snow, lol. Yeah.
@vaderito

True dat true dat. Skill, experience and precision will beat aggression and raw potential 9 times out of 10.

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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by SanghaRen on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 8:05

@Macha Ren

I like your thinking "Kylo was never a weapon to be honed, but was a prize to be stolen and destroyed". Mirrors what Han said. Maybe what Snoke was meaning with "finish his training" is actually finish him off. There's another unpolished diamond out there now.

I still think that to corrupt that balance point, you need a breach. And I do wonder what that breach is. We can assume that there was a breach when the Vader/Anakin secret blew up and that's when it tipped off fully, but if we go with the fact that Snoke was working on Ben before, I would assume there was another breach that allowed him to brainwash him in the first place: absent parents, feeling of loneliness, etc. For me it's difficult to go with Ben = balance in the force but then he just got brainwashed by Snoke. I am very difficult this way, I won't fall for such a simplistic explanation in VIII.


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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by snufkin on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 9:37

@Macha Ren wrote:
@vaderito

This is why he was so important to Snoke. Kylo was never a weapon to be honed. He was a prize to be stolen and destroyed. He IS the balance in the Force, and if you corrupt that balance point, you tip the scales so to speak in your favor.
@Macha Ren

BINGO, part of his endgame. And isn't it Leia who references this in her conversation with Han? That Snoke knew their kid (really her DNA, which is part of what makes the ST so subversive) would be powerful, especially as an ally. Same holds true as an opponent. So getting his claws on Ben was a crime of opportunity.

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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by vaderito on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 9:46

@snufkin wrote:
@Macha Ren wrote:
@vaderito

This is why he was so important to Snoke. Kylo was never a weapon to be honed. He was a prize to be stolen and destroyed. He IS the balance in the Force, and if you corrupt that balance point, you tip the scales so to speak in your favor.
@Macha Ren

BINGO, part of his endgame. And isn't it Leia who references this in her conversation with Han? That Snoke knew their kid (really her DNA, which is part of what makes the ST so subversive) would be powerful, especially as an ally. Same holds true as an opponent. So getting his claws on Ben was a crime of opportunity.

@snufkin

She says in novelization that "he knew our child would have equal potential for good and evil"
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 10:11

@snufkin wrote:
@Macha Ren wrote:
@vaderito

This is why he was so important to Snoke. Kylo was never a weapon to be honed. He was a prize to be stolen and destroyed. He IS the balance in the Force, and if you corrupt that balance point, you tip the scales so to speak in your favor.
@Macha Ren

BINGO, part of his endgame. And isn't it Leia who references this in her conversation with Han? That Snoke knew their kid (really her DNA, which is part of what makes the ST so subversive) would be powerful, especially as an ally. Same holds true as an opponent. So getting his claws on Ben was a crime of opportunity.

@snufkin

That's my interpretation. I'm open-minded about it, but I'm not necessarily sold on the idea that Snoke was "in Ben's head" since he was a baby. I think that Snoke was likely watching him the entire time, but outside of possible chance encounters, didn't actively intervene until he saw an opening--likely linked to Ben being off with Luke and being isolated and the Vader reveal.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by snufkin on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 10:29

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@Macha Ren wrote:
@vaderito

This is why he was so important to Snoke. Kylo was never a weapon to be honed. He was a prize to be stolen and destroyed. He IS the balance in the Force, and if you corrupt that balance point, you tip the scales so to speak in your favor.
@Macha Ren

BINGO, part of his endgame. And isn't it Leia who references this in her conversation with Han? That Snoke knew their kid (really her DNA, which is part of what makes the ST so subversive) would be powerful, especially as an ally. Same holds true as an opponent. So getting his claws on Ben was a crime of opportunity.

@snufkin

That's my interpretation. I'm open-minded about it, but I'm not necessarily sold on the idea that Snoke was "in Ben's head" since he was a baby. I think that Snoke was likely watching him the entire time, but outside of possible chance encounters, didn't actively intervene until he saw an opening--likely linked to Ben being off with Luke and being isolated and the Vader reveal.
@ISeeAnIsland

Yep, crime of opportunity. It's so odd that they went with Andy Serkis playing Snoke because the literary callbacks I can think of for that type of character would be either Mrs. Coulter from the His Dark Materials trilogy or the White Witch from the Narnia books (and he's a pretty close to Edmund Penvensie).
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by BastilaBey on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 10:31

@snufkin Apparently they toyed with the idea of Snoke being a woman for quite a while, which would definitely have brought in that White Witch feel. The dynamic would have felt very different.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by snufkin on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 10:41

@BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin Apparently they toyed with the idea of Snoke being a woman for quite a while, which would definitely have brought in that White Witch feel. The dynamic would have felt very different.
@BastilaBey

Wonder what made them change their minds, like if that would make it too obvious?

I've only ever read the first book as a child, but remember being completely unsettled and creeped out by the White Witch. Even if it turns out that they don't go the full child grooming  route with the back story, you know something like this happened between the two of them



It'll also be interesting to see whatever they have for Rey's backstory. Like does Snoke know who she is and maybe had a hand in her parents' disappearance? Or is she a wildcard thrown into the mix and would they ever give an explanation as to why she appears 8-9 years after the Balance?
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 10:59

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that age 10 was a pivotal age for Ben--either when Snoke first got his claws into him or when he was sent off to train with Luke. i.e. Something happened to nudge that "perfect balance" at that time, and the Force attempted to self-correct with Rey's birth.

I don't think that Rey suddenly gained Force powers as part of the "awakening"--I think they've been there all along but were suppressed either by the people who left her on Jakku or just by the very nature of Jakku itself.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by CienaRee on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 12:08

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin wrote:
@Macha Ren wrote:
@vaderito

This is why he was so important to Snoke. Kylo was never a weapon to be honed. He was a prize to be stolen and destroyed. He IS the balance in the Force, and if you corrupt that balance point, you tip the scales so to speak in your favor.
@Macha Ren

BINGO, part of his endgame. And isn't it Leia who references this in her conversation with Han? That Snoke knew their kid (really her DNA, which is part of what makes the ST so subversive) would be powerful, especially as an ally. Same holds true as an opponent. So getting his claws on Ben was a crime of opportunity.

@snufkin

That's my interpretation.  I'm open-minded about it, but I'm not necessarily sold on the idea that Snoke was "in Ben's head" since he was a baby. I think that Snoke was likely watching him the entire time, but outside of possible chance encounters, didn't actively intervene until he saw an opening--likely linked to Ben being off with Luke and being isolated and the Vader reveal.
@ISeeAnIsland

I think it's possible Snoke was just watching him untill he was send to Luke then he started communicating with him telepatically.
I think it's very likely he was either send to Luke or Snoke started brainwashing him when Rey was born.

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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Macha Ren on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 12:33

On the flip side, I think Kylo will become stronger than Vader, but because of his inherent instability and vulnerabilities, he will hit a rock bottom that Vader never did. And this is where they will diverge substantially. Anakin/Vader hit rock bottom when he got maimed and left for dead by Obi-Wan and thought that Padme was dead. He had no support network for when he crashed and burned. Kylo, if he doesn't burn every single bridge left, could very well have his mother, uncle, Chewbacca (maybe, but that first conversation is going to be ugly) and likely Rey there when he thinks all hope is lost. Anakin descended into Vader because all hope had been extinguished. I think Kylo is going to realize he has more in his corner than he thought. And that is what will make a difference.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 12:39

@Macha Ren wrote:On the flip side, I think Kylo will become stronger than Vader, but because of his inherent instability and vulnerabilities, he will hit a rock bottom that Vader never did. And this is where they will diverge substantially. Anakin/Vader hit rock bottom when he got maimed and left for dead by Obi-Wan and thought that Padme was dead. He had no support network for when he crashed and burned. Kylo, if he doesn't burn every single bridge left, could very well have his mother, uncle, Chewbacca (maybe, but that first conversation is going to be ugly) and likely Rey there when he thinks all hope is lost. Anakin descended into Vader because all hope had been extinguished. I think Kylo is going to realize he has more in his corner than he thought. And that is what will make a difference.
@Macha Ren

I suspect that you're right. Unconditional love--both from others for Kylo and by Kylo himself will play a big part in his redemption.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Sacrebleu on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 12:53

I found the line puzzling given that I heard J.J. Abrams say Kylo is aware of Darth Vader's return to the light and refusal to kill Luke.  It might make more sense for Kylo to be afraid he'll never be stronger than Darth Vader.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Kessel on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 14:07

@snufkin wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:@snufkin Apparently they toyed with the idea of Snoke being a woman for quite a while, which would definitely have brought in that White Witch feel. The dynamic would have felt very different.
@BastilaBey

Wonder what made them change their minds, like if that would make it too obvious?

I've only ever read the first book as a child, but remember being completely unsettled and creeped out by the White Witch. Even if it turns out that they don't go the full child grooming  route with the back story, you know something like this happened between the two of them



@snufkin

Yeah, if Snoke had been a woman, I also think there would have been that creepy white witch dynamic and Kylo's lost boy vibe would have been  more blatant. There also would have been a more obvious element of possessiveness and the corruption may have been twinged with a sexual element. It also would have changed the dynamic involving Rey and Snoke.

Even with Snoke being an alien male, there's still an unsettling creepiness to the whole thing that I think some people intentionally ignore (the people who think Kylo joined Snoke because he was a spoiled brat). I also think a lot of people compare the Snoke/Kylo dynamic to the Palpatine/Anakin one and I don't think they're the same. Of course we still don't know everything about the Snoke/Kylo dynamic yet, but I don't think it's going to be like Palpatine/Anakin.

I think Kylo definitely has the potential to be stronger than Vader, but he's not able to do so as long as he is so emotionally unstable and torn. Also, I don't think Snoke wants Kylo to surpass anyone.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 14:52

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I wouldn't be surprised to find out that age 10 was a pivotal age for Ben--either when Snoke first got his claws into him or when he was sent off to train with Luke. i.e. Something happened to nudge that "perfect balance" at that time, and the Force attempted to self-correct with Rey's birth.

I don't think that Rey suddenly gained Force powers as part of the "awakening"--I think they've been there all along but were suppressed either by the people who left her on Jakku or just by the very nature of Jakku itself.
@ISeeAnIsland

I very much agree with this. I don't think Rey's existence is what throws Kylo out of balance. I think there was a "breach", to quote @SanghaRen, around the age of 8 or so ... and, getting all mystical, Rey was born to bring him back ... or keeping with the Adam and Eve theme, to be his partner in balance. I think the breach is going to be something going wrong in the family that makes Ben feel abandoned. I agree that Snoke was at least watching since infanthood, but until the breach no whisperings could be heard. I actually don't think sending Ben away will be the breach. I think it will be something earlier, something in the family, something upsetting, and most likely something that unfortunately occurs at the same time that Ben has his "awakening". As a result, Ben will suddenly have power *and* be upset ... that means his power will be out of control and destructive, and that would mean a one-way trip to Luke, thus widening the breach and probably giving Snoke good access whenever Ben is unstable. I actually think Ben probably maintained decent stability and probably kept the dark at bay for years, but something withh that Vader reveal and perhaps some kind of dark side relic exposure and/or Luke's Force Camp taking a wrong turn opened the floodgates.


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