Kylo could become stronger than Vader

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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by snufkin on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 14:54

@Kessel89 - Definitely more blatant with the White Witch and Lost Boy parallels. Even with Rey there would've been potential for Mrs. Coulter and Lyra since she's an orphan and a nasty rivalry with Leia, stealing her child. One of the all-time creepiest I remember reading about as a kid is Langwidere in Ozma of Oz, who has a hall of heads and wants to take Dorothy's head





But otherwise, creepy old alien dude is probably good enough for the story. And maybe unlike it being a White Witch parallel, it'll be a little more blatant since it's foreshadowed that he wants Rey brought to him.


Last edited by snufkin on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 15:48; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 15:26

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I wouldn't be surprised to find out that age 10 was a pivotal age for Ben--either when Snoke first got his claws into him or when he was sent off to train with Luke. i.e. Something happened to nudge that "perfect balance" at that time, and the Force attempted to self-correct with Rey's birth.

I don't think that Rey suddenly gained Force powers as part of the "awakening"--I think they've been there all along but were suppressed either by the people who left her on Jakku or just by the very nature of Jakku itself.
@ISeeAnIsland

I very much agree with this. I don't think Rey's existence is what throws Kylo out of balance. I think there was a "breach", to quote @SanghaRen, around the age of 8 or so ... and, getting all mystical, Rey was born to bring him back ... or keeping with the Adam and Eve theme, to be his partner in balance. I think the breach is going to be something going wrong in the family that makes Ben feel abandoned. I agree that Snoke was at least watching since infanthood, but until the breach no whisperings could be heard. I actually don't think sending Ben away will be the breach. I think it will be something earlier, something in the family, something upsetting, and most likely something that unfortunately occurs at the same time that Ben has his "awakening". As a result, Ben will suddenly have power *and* be upset ... that means his power will be out of control and destructive, and that would mean a one-way trip to Luke, thus widening the breach and probably giving Snoke good access whenever Ben is unstable. I actually think Ben probably maintained decent stability and probably kept the dark at bay for years, but something withh that Vader reveal and perhaps some kind of dark side relic exposure and/or Luke's Force Camp taking a wrong turn opened the floodgates.
@SoloSideCousin

Exactly. EXACTLY! Or at least, this is what my headcanon is saying re: Ben's fall and how Rey is tied in, etc.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Macha Ren on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 16:09

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I wouldn't be surprised to find out that age 10 was a pivotal age for Ben--either when Snoke first got his claws into him or when he was sent off to train with Luke. i.e. Something happened to nudge that "perfect balance" at that time, and the Force attempted to self-correct with Rey's birth.

I don't think that Rey suddenly gained Force powers as part of the "awakening"--I think they've been there all along but were suppressed either by the people who left her on Jakku or just by the very nature of Jakku itself.
@ISeeAnIsland

I very much agree with this. I don't think Rey's existence is what throws Kylo out of balance. I think there was a "breach", to quote @SanghaRen, around the age of 8 or so ... and, getting all mystical, Rey was born to bring him back ... or keeping with the Adam and Eve theme, to be his partner in balance. I think the breach is going to be something going wrong in the family that makes Ben feel abandoned. I agree that Snoke was at least watching since infanthood, but until the breach no whisperings could be heard. I actually don't think sending Ben away will be the breach. I think it will be something earlier, something in the family, something upsetting, and most likely something that unfortunately occurs at the same time that Ben has his "awakening". As a result, Ben will suddenly have power *and* be upset ... that means his power will be out of control and destructive, and that would mean a one-way trip to Luke, thus widening the breach and probably giving Snoke good access whenever Ben is unstable. I actually think Ben probably maintained decent stability and probably kept the dark at bay for years, but something withh that Vader reveal and perhaps some kind of dark side relic exposure and/or Luke's Force Camp taking a wrong turn opened the floodgates.
@SoloSideCousin

I've always seen the shipping off to Luke as something that really hurt him. I think some sort of destructive (likely impulsive and not entirely premeditated misuse of the Force) that scared his parents. If your parents are suddenly scared of and scared for you, that can be a very lasting sense of abandonment. In that type of circumstance, I could see Leia with very good intentions thinking she's sending Ben to Luke in order to protect him, so that he can control his baser force instincts. But for a young kid, it's easy to construe that as punishment, that something is wrong or broken with you--especially if it was a very unilateral decision that was made quickly with no discussion.

It could play out as the following:

*negative event*
*parents overheard arguing* (and this is where he could've formed some very lasting negative impressions of his father if Han said some very heated things in a fit of anger even if he loved his son very much.*
*things are packed*
*Ben loaded on the Falcon*
*Quick goodbye, parents leave, Ben is alone*

That is hard to process for a child. We're going to help you turns into We're going to punish you very quickly.

And if this had occurred, what was that "negative event"? Was it something so horrifying (example, death of teacher or peer) that a young Ben already felt that he was beyond help, that he needed to be punished for what he did, that was couldn't return from it no matter how much his parents or uncle loved him? Because that would be the perfect opportunity for Snoke to slip in--an emotionally very fragile and wounded child that already thinks the sentinel act is unforgivable.

That's the perfect opportunity to drive a wedge between a frightened child and his parents.

I think fear opened that breach because even then Ben was likely harder on himself than others were. This isn't a case of a "spoiled brat that had all the love in the world blah blah blah nonsense." This sounds like it could be linked to a very negative, sentinel event where the dark prevailed in an action and a child thought he was already past the point of no return because, in his mind, why would parents punish him by sending him away if he wasn't evil and bad.

On the flip side, what would make this even more tragic would be if Ben was innocent the whole time and Snoke created the sentinel event that Ben got blamed for. If he had a reputation for being hotheaded or impulsive, or his parents had reprimanded him for minor events previously, he would be taking the fall for something he never did. That would be an even bigger grudge /wedge to have with his parents. Resentment for perceived punishment for something he had no part of could definitely sow the seed of discontent and distrust for a long time. Especially if Snoke exploited it.

Now that I think of it, I may lean toward Snoke event/Ben Scapegoat as a definite possibility. Let's just say a teacher or peer died after Ben got angry and Snoke was responsible. Taking the fall for a death you didn't create would be something horrific, yet would fit this scenario very well. That may be exactly the type of twist Rian may be looking for---Ben ultimately fell because no one believed him and condemned him for something he did not commit.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by snufkin on Wed 3 Aug 2016 - 16:43

@Macha Ren wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I wouldn't be surprised to find out that age 10 was a pivotal age for Ben--either when Snoke first got his claws into him or when he was sent off to train with Luke. i.e. Something happened to nudge that "perfect balance" at that time, and the Force attempted to self-correct with Rey's birth.

I don't think that Rey suddenly gained Force powers as part of the "awakening"--I think they've been there all along but were suppressed either by the people who left her on Jakku or just by the very nature of Jakku itself.
@ISeeAnIsland

I very much agree with this. I don't think Rey's existence is what throws Kylo out of balance. I think there was a "breach", to quote @SanghaRen, around the age of 8 or so ... and, getting all mystical, Rey was born to bring him back ... or keeping with the Adam and Eve theme, to be his partner in balance. I think the breach is going to be something going wrong in the family that makes Ben feel abandoned. I agree that Snoke was at least watching since infanthood, but until the breach no whisperings could be heard. I actually don't think sending Ben away will be the breach. I think it will be something earlier, something in the family, something upsetting, and most likely something that unfortunately occurs at the same time that Ben has his "awakening". As a result, Ben will suddenly have power *and* be upset ... that means his power will be out of control and destructive, and that would mean a one-way trip to Luke, thus widening the breach and probably giving Snoke good access whenever Ben is unstable. I actually think Ben probably maintained decent stability and probably kept the dark at bay for years, but something withh that Vader reveal and perhaps some kind of dark side relic exposure and/or Luke's Force Camp taking a wrong turn opened the floodgates.
@SoloSideCousin

I've always seen the shipping off to Luke as something that really hurt him. I think some sort of destructive (likely impulsive and not entirely premeditated misuse of the Force) that scared his parents. If your parents are suddenly scared of and scared for you, that can be a very lasting sense of abandonment. In that type of circumstance, I could see Leia with very good intentions thinking she's sending Ben to Luke in order to protect him, so that he can control his baser force instincts. But for a young kid, it's easy to construe that as punishment, that something is wrong or broken with you--especially if it was a very unilateral decision that was made quickly with no discussion.

It could play out as the following:

*negative event*
*parents overheard arguing* (and this is where he could've formed some very lasting negative impressions of his father if Han said some very heated things in a fit of anger even if he loved his son very much.*
*things are packed*
*Ben loaded on the Falcon*
*Quick goodbye, parents leave, Ben is alone*

That is hard to process for a child. We're going to help you turns into We're going to punish you very quickly.

And if this had occurred, what was that "negative event"? Was it something so horrifying (example, death of teacher or peer) that a young Ben already felt that he was beyond help, that he needed to be punished for what he did, that was couldn't return from it no matter how much his parents or uncle loved him? Because that would be the perfect opportunity for Snoke to slip in--an emotionally very fragile and wounded child that already thinks the sentinel act is unforgivable.

That's the perfect opportunity to drive a wedge between a frightened child and his parents.

I think fear opened that breach because even then Ben was likely harder on himself than others were. This isn't a case of a "spoiled brat that had all the love in the world blah blah blah nonsense." This sounds like it could be linked to a very negative, sentinel event where the dark prevailed in an action and a child thought he was already past the point of no return because, in his mind, why would parents punish him by sending him away if he wasn't evil and bad.

On the flip side, what would make this even more tragic would be if Ben was innocent the whole time and Snoke created the sentinel event that Ben got blamed for. If he had a reputation for being hotheaded or impulsive, or his parents had reprimanded him for minor events previously, he would be taking the fall for something he never did. That would be an even bigger grudge /wedge to have with his parents. Resentment for perceived punishment for something he had no part of could definitely sow the seed of discontent and distrust for a long time. Especially if Snoke exploited it.

Now that I think of it, I may lean toward Snoke event/Ben Scapegoat as a definite possibility. Let's just say a teacher or peer died after Ben got angry and Snoke was responsible. Taking the fall for a death you didn't create would be something horrific, yet would fit this scenario very well. That may be exactly the type of twist Rian may be looking for---Ben ultimately fell because no one believed him and condemned him for something he did not commit.
@Macha Ren

I've considered that something bad happened that was Snoke tipping the balances in his favor, extra feelings of abandonment that everybody thought it was his fault and well, when something bad happens sometimes (especially as a child), it's easy to start to think that it's your fault anyways. However they run with Rey's backstory, the hidden feelings of feeling abandoned and "maybe I deserved it*" has to be something that the two of them bond over. So far they each have 180° reactions between the angry rejection/repudiation and holding a steadfast/faithful vigil beyond the point of sanity.

* again, kind of where Maz is a terrible grief counselor. Woman needed to hear the truth but at least find her a sofa to sit on and get her a bourbon to cry in while she finally breaks down over the fact that her parents are either dead or dumped her with Plutt as a child laborer.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by SanghaRen on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 3:49

@Macha Ren @snufkin @SoloSideCousin @ISeeAnIsland
I think we are very much aligned on the feelings that could have led Ben to take the dark path. This is the kind of story I'd love to see and that would fit with how Kylo was presented to us in TFA. However, I am also bracing to have a slighlty different story to be told. Pablo seems to be quite consistent in saying that Kylo feels entitled. I still believe that our view and his do not exclude each other because our view points to his childhood / teenagehood whereas Pablo probably looks at the 29-year-old-modeled-by-Snoke product. Still, it could be that we also see some spoiled brat attitude thrown into the mix although with Adam Driver, I expect a very layered one where you can still relate to the character as opposed to a spoiled brat you just want to slap in the face. That spoiled brat attitude could be triggered by Snoke too - I don't see Han and Leia spoiling him. Snoke seems to like to give him a pat once in a while: "even you, Master of the Knights of Ren..." Snoke likes to speak with emphasis.

Coming back to the topic of Kylo becoming stronger than Vader. I would expect that a redeemed Kylo would actually not care anymore whether he is as strong or stronger than Grandpa. And I would expect one of the message of the trilogy to be that the strength lies in your heart and not in the Force or your ancestors.



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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 4:51

And let's not forget the other Skywalker still around. Will Kylo be stronger than Luke?
If yes - or if he's anywhere near Luke's power level - touché!
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 10:15

@Macha Ren wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I wouldn't be surprised to find out that age 10 was a pivotal age for Ben--either when Snoke first got his claws into him or when he was sent off to train with Luke. i.e. Something happened to nudge that "perfect balance" at that time, and the Force attempted to self-correct with Rey's birth.

I don't think that Rey suddenly gained Force powers as part of the "awakening"--I think they've been there all along but were suppressed either by the people who left her on Jakku or just by the very nature of Jakku itself.
@ISeeAnIsland

I very much agree with this. I don't think Rey's existence is what throws Kylo out of balance. I think there was a "breach", to quote @SanghaRen, around the age of 8 or so ... and, getting all mystical, Rey was born to bring him back ... or keeping with the Adam and Eve theme, to be his partner in balance. I think the breach is going to be something going wrong in the family that makes Ben feel abandoned. I agree that Snoke was at least watching since infanthood, but until the breach no whisperings could be heard. I actually don't think sending Ben away will be the breach. I think it will be something earlier, something in the family, something upsetting, and most likely something that unfortunately occurs at the same time that Ben has his "awakening". As a result, Ben will suddenly have power *and* be upset ... that means his power will be out of control and destructive, and that would mean a one-way trip to Luke, thus widening the breach and probably giving Snoke good access whenever Ben is unstable. I actually think Ben probably maintained decent stability and probably kept the dark at bay for years, but something withh that Vader reveal and perhaps some kind of dark side relic exposure and/or Luke's Force Camp taking a wrong turn opened the floodgates.
@SoloSideCousin

I've always seen the shipping off to Luke as something that really hurt him. I think some sort of destructive (likely impulsive and not entirely premeditated misuse of the Force) that scared his parents. If your parents are suddenly scared of and scared for you, that can be a very lasting sense of abandonment. In that type of circumstance, I could see Leia with very good intentions thinking she's sending Ben to Luke in order to protect him, so that he can control his baser force instincts. But for a young kid, it's easy to construe that as punishment, that something is wrong or broken with you--especially if it was a very unilateral decision that was made quickly with no discussion.

It could play out as the following:

*negative event*
*parents overheard arguing* (and this is where he could've formed some very lasting negative impressions of his father if Han said some very heated things in a fit of anger even if he loved his son very much.*
*things are packed*
*Ben loaded on the Falcon*
*Quick goodbye, parents leave, Ben is alone*

That is hard to process for a child. We're going to help you turns into We're going to punish you very quickly.

And if this had occurred, what was that "negative event"? Was it something so horrifying (example, death of teacher or peer) that a young Ben already felt that he was beyond help, that he needed to be punished for what he did, that was couldn't return from it no matter how much his parents or uncle loved him? Because that would be the perfect opportunity for Snoke to slip in--an emotionally very fragile and wounded child that already thinks the sentinel act is unforgivable.

That's the perfect opportunity to drive a wedge between a frightened child and his parents.

I think fear opened that breach because even then Ben was likely harder on himself than others were. This isn't a case of a "spoiled brat that had all the love in the world blah blah blah nonsense." This sounds like it could be linked to a very negative, sentinel event where the dark prevailed in an action and a child thought he was already past the point of no return because, in his mind, why would parents punish him by sending him away if he wasn't evil and bad.

On the flip side, what would make this even more tragic would be if Ben was innocent the whole time and Snoke created the sentinel event that Ben got blamed for. If he had a reputation for being hotheaded or impulsive, or his parents had reprimanded him for minor events previously, he would be taking the fall for something he never did. That would be an even bigger grudge /wedge to have with his parents. Resentment for perceived punishment for something he had no part of could definitely sow the seed of discontent and distrust for a long time. Especially if Snoke exploited it.

Now that I think of it, I may lean toward Snoke event/Ben Scapegoat as a definite possibility. Let's just say a teacher or peer died after Ben got angry and Snoke was responsible. Taking the fall for a death you didn't create would be something horrific, yet would fit this scenario very well. That may be exactly the type of twist Rian may be looking for---Ben ultimately fell because no one believed him and condemned him for something he did not commit.
@Macha Ren

Excellent posts on this subject all around @Macha Ren, @snufkin and @SanghaRen. Very Happy

And on the bolded, I am definitely on the same wavelength as you. I always thought that Snoke was responsible for the incident that got Ben sent away in the sense that he was flooding him with the dark and Ben did something crazy as a result. However, your scenario takes it to a whole new level, a brilliant and totally tragic level. I think @panki has talked in the past about a scenario where Ben might have wished ill on someone and then Snoke made it happen and then would manipulate Ben to the dark saying, "It's what you wanted to happen. That's who you are." But in this instance, there might have been some cracks forming in the family due to the parents always being separated or off-planet, or due to Han getting upset that Ben had an awakening in the force, or Ben himself being upset at awakening to force. Perhaps Ben never wanted it. Perhaps he wanted to be like his father. Kylo/Ben gives the impression of being very emotionally sensitive. If this was his natural way and *then* he became super force sensitive, this might have overwhelmed him terribly because he would feel everything like 100x more now. In the book there is a lot of talk how Kylo wants to suppress emotions. Now the novel is not exactly perfectly reliable, but there could be something there. Like @SanghaRen has said, the force could very well be a curse to Ben.

So all of this might have provided a slight crack for Snoke to be able to read his mind a bit. In that instance Snoke would probably find him to be struggling emotionally ... and what if he sees a thought where Ben is mad at someone and then watches and waits for just the right moment and Ben gets the blame. Because Ben is so young he couldn't really be held responsible, but at the same time the parents will think that he can't just live with people. So Leia, thinking she is fixing things, promptly shuttles him off. But to a kid that would feel like total punishment, like being exiled to some Jedi reform school while his parents go on their merry way without him. He may think he deserves it, or a part of him might believe that it was a mistake/accident and that if he proves himself, they will take him back ... but they never do. He might have waited for them for years just like Rey.

Further, I (and others) have considered a scenario where he gets the blame for whatever happens with Luke's Jedi Camp. The old shooting script had language indicating that Ben might have actually been kidnapped by the Knights of Ren. (Maybe that's changed, but they thought about it). Maybe the KoR tortured him to the dark. The new canon has that happen with Jedi Quinlan Vos in Dark Disciple. And what if the KoR kill the students and Ben gets the blame because he has gone missing ... but what if Ben did nothing wrong. What if it was just his parents accepting that news as confirmation that he really was "bad" like he was all those years ago and that "there was nothing they could do" (paraphrasing Han). Han and Leia have saved countless people. What if they didn't save their son when they could have because they doubted him, because they believed he was capable of killing everybody, just like Vader. The feelings of abandonment would be off the charts, and that would be perfect ammunition to use to turn him on his family. Why would he turn on them so completely? Unless he starts out as a jerk as Ben (like Anakin sort of did and Anakin was loyal to family), he wouldn't turn on them unless he felt like they had turned on him.

AD talks about Kylo holding a grudge and feeling abandoned. Kylo also does tell Han that he has been "waiting for [him] for a long time." That may be completely true, since Kylo never lies to anyone but Snoke. He may have waited for Han at Luke's Force Camp ... and he may have waited for his parents to rescue him from the KoR, (because that really is their big thing to take risks like that), ... and then they never came.

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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 11:28

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Macha Ren wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I wouldn't be surprised to find out that age 10 was a pivotal age for Ben--either when Snoke first got his claws into him or when he was sent off to train with Luke. i.e. Something happened to nudge that "perfect balance" at that time, and the Force attempted to self-correct with Rey's birth.

I don't think that Rey suddenly gained Force powers as part of the "awakening"--I think they've been there all along but were suppressed either by the people who left her on Jakku or just by the very nature of Jakku itself.
@ISeeAnIsland

I very much agree with this. I don't think Rey's existence is what throws Kylo out of balance. I think there was a "breach", to quote @SanghaRen, around the age of 8 or so ... and, getting all mystical, Rey was born to bring him back ... or keeping with the Adam and Eve theme, to be his partner in balance. I think the breach is going to be something going wrong in the family that makes Ben feel abandoned. I agree that Snoke was at least watching since infanthood, but until the breach no whisperings could be heard. I actually don't think sending Ben away will be the breach. I think it will be something earlier, something in the family, something upsetting, and most likely something that unfortunately occurs at the same time that Ben has his "awakening". As a result, Ben will suddenly have power *and* be upset ... that means his power will be out of control and destructive, and that would mean a one-way trip to Luke, thus widening the breach and probably giving Snoke good access whenever Ben is unstable. I actually think Ben probably maintained decent stability and probably kept the dark at bay for years, but something withh that Vader reveal and perhaps some kind of dark side relic exposure and/or Luke's Force Camp taking a wrong turn opened the floodgates.
@SoloSideCousin

I've always seen the shipping off to Luke as something that really hurt him. I think some sort of destructive (likely impulsive and not entirely premeditated misuse of the Force) that scared his parents. If your parents are suddenly scared of and scared for you, that can be a very lasting sense of abandonment. In that type of circumstance, I could see Leia with very good intentions thinking she's sending Ben to Luke in order to protect him, so that he can control his baser force instincts. But for a young kid, it's easy to construe that as punishment, that something is wrong or broken with you--especially if it was a very unilateral decision that was made quickly with no discussion.

It could play out as the following:

*negative event*
*parents overheard arguing* (and this is where he could've formed some very lasting negative impressions of his father if Han said some very heated things in a fit of anger even if he loved his son very much.*
*things are packed*
*Ben loaded on the Falcon*
*Quick goodbye, parents leave, Ben is alone*

That is hard to process for a child. We're going to help you turns into We're going to punish you very quickly.

And if this had occurred, what was that "negative event"? Was it something so horrifying (example, death of teacher or peer) that a young Ben already felt that he was beyond help, that he needed to be punished for what he did, that was couldn't return from it no matter how much his parents or uncle loved him? Because that would be the perfect opportunity for Snoke to slip in--an emotionally very fragile and wounded child that already thinks the sentinel act is unforgivable.

That's the perfect opportunity to drive a wedge between a frightened child and his parents.

I think fear opened that breach because even then Ben was likely harder on himself than others were. This isn't a case of a "spoiled brat that had all the love in the world blah blah blah nonsense." This sounds like it could be linked to a very negative, sentinel event where the dark prevailed in an action and a child thought he was already past the point of no return because, in his mind, why would parents punish him by sending him away if he wasn't evil and bad.

On the flip side, what would make this even more tragic would be if Ben was innocent the whole time and Snoke created the sentinel event that Ben got blamed for. If he had a reputation for being hotheaded or impulsive, or his parents had reprimanded him for minor events previously, he would be taking the fall for something he never did. That would be an even bigger grudge /wedge to have with his parents. Resentment for perceived punishment for something he had no part of could definitely sow the seed of discontent and distrust for a long time. Especially if Snoke exploited it.

Now that I think of it, I may lean toward Snoke event/Ben Scapegoat as a definite possibility. Let's just say a teacher or peer died after Ben got angry and Snoke was responsible. Taking the fall for a death you didn't create would be something horrific, yet would fit this scenario very well. That may be exactly the type of twist Rian may be looking for---Ben ultimately fell because no one believed him and condemned him for something he did not commit.
@Macha Ren

Excellent posts on this subject all around @Macha Ren, @snufkin and @SanghaRen. Very Happy

And on the bolded, I am definitely on the same wavelength as you. I always thought that Snoke was responsible for the incident that got Ben sent away in the sense that he was flooding him with the dark and Ben did something crazy as a result. However, your scenario takes it to a whole new level, a brilliant and totally tragic level. I think @panki has talked in the past about a scenario where Ben might have wished ill on someone and then Snoke made it happen and then would manipulate Ben to the dark saying, "It's what you wanted to happen. That's who you are." But in this instance, there might have been some cracks forming in the family due to the parents always being separated or off-planet, or due to Han getting upset that Ben had an awakening in the force, or Ben himself being upset at awakening to force. Perhaps Ben never wanted it. Perhaps he wanted to be like his father. Kylo/Ben gives the impression of being very emotionally sensitive. If this was his natural way and *then* he became super force sensitive, this might have overwhelmed him terribly because he would feel everything like 100x more now. In the book there is a lot of talk how Kylo wants to suppress emotions. Now the novel is not exactly perfectly reliable, but there could be something there. Like @SanghaRen has said, the force could very well be a curse to Ben.

So all of this might have provided a slight crack for Snoke to be able to read his mind a bit. In that instance Snoke would probably find him to be struggling emotionally ... and what if he sees a thought where Ben is mad at someone and then watches and waits for just the right moment and Ben gets the blame. Because Ben is so young he couldn't really be held responsible, but at the same time the parents will think that he can't just live with people. So Leia, thinking she is fixing things, promptly shuttles him off. But to a kid that would feel like total punishment, like being exiled to some Jedi reform school while his parents go on their merry way without him. He may think he deserves it, or a part of him might believe that it was a mistake/accident and that if he proves himself, they will take him back ... but they never do. He might have waited for them for years just like Rey.

Further, I (and others) have considered a scenario where he gets the blame for whatever happens with Luke's Jedi Camp. The old shooting script had language indicating that Ben might have actually been kidnapped by the Knights of Ren. (Maybe that's changed, but they thought about it). Maybe the KoR tortured him to the dark. The new canon has that happen with Jedi Quinlan Vos in Dark Disciple. And what if the KoR kill the students and Ben gets the blame because he has gone missing ... but what if Ben did nothing wrong. What if it was just his parents accepting that news as confirmation that he really was "bad" like he was all those years ago and that "there was nothing they could do" (paraphrasing Han). Han and Leia have saved countless people. What if they didn't save their son when they could have because they doubted him, because they believed he was capable of killing everybody, just like Vader. The feelings of abandonment would be off the charts, and that would be perfect ammunition to use to turn him on his family. Why would he turn on them so completely? Unless he starts out as a jerk as Ben (like Anakin sort of did and Anakin was loyal to family), he wouldn't turn on them unless he felt like they had turned on him.

AD talks about Kylo holding a grudge and feeling abandoned. Kylo also does tell Han that he has been "waiting for [him] for a long time." That may be completely true, since Kylo never lies to anyone but Snoke. He may have waited for Han at Luke's Force Camp ... and he may have waited for his parents to rescue him from the KoR, (because that really is their big thing to take risks like that), ... and then they never came.

@SoloSideCousin

Awesome post!

To the point of the KoR thing, I do feel that we're getting hints that it could have been a kidnapping situation (or at least a situation where Ben's involvement wasn't particularly voluntary) with the new canon books. The whole thing in Life Debt with the Acolytes of the Beyond just screams of a situation where Ben (and perhaps Luke) were targeted as being living Vader relics. I think that you're dead-on in that there were probably two separate scenarios where Ben felt abandoned by his family--probably when he was first sent off to go train with his weird religious nut Uncle Luke, and then again, when his parents failed to rescue/retrieve him from the KoR. He'd be justifiably upset about both of those.

Now, I am one of those people who reads Kylo's behavior/language as a bit entitled in TFA, but to me, that doesn't at all preclude him from terrible things happening to him in the past. He's a nerd at heart, IMO, and honestly, most nerds that I know (myself included) have somewhat entitled attitudes about some things. I was re-watching High Fidelity for the first time in years on HBO the other night, and it really struck me how well Kylo would have fit in with the guys working at the record store there.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Macha Ren on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 13:28

I think another question that needs to be addressed is if Ben ever wanted to be trained to be a Jedi. If he got shoved off and expected to live a life of astheticism he never wanted, that could cause problems as well. What if his greater wish as a kid was just to be a normal kid?
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 13:40

@Macha Ren wrote:I think another question that needs to be addressed is if Ben ever wanted to be trained to be a Jedi. If he got shoved off and expected to live a life of astheticism he never wanted, that could cause problems as well. What if his greater wish as a kid was just to be a normal kid?
@Macha Ren

I've wondered if this was the case. The line from Bloodline about Ben running around and getting dirty like a typical little boy could possibly point to this. It might be headcanon, but I've also wondered if maybe Ben wanted to be a pilot like his dad at one point. Maybe Han had always wanted to mentor Ben in flying, and maybe that was something that Ben wanted as well, but instead, he gets shoved off to Uncle Luke's Charter School for the Force Sensitive. That could explain Han taking on surrogate sons and daughters as part of his racing team in Bloodline.

And depending on Luke's philosophy of Jedi teachings, I just can't see having to suppress his emotions going over well with Ben at all--not if he was at all like we see Kylo in TFA.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 15:02

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Macha Ren wrote:
@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I wouldn't be surprised to find out that age 10 was a pivotal age for Ben--either when Snoke first got his claws into him or when he was sent off to train with Luke. i.e. Something happened to nudge that "perfect balance" at that time, and the Force attempted to self-correct with Rey's birth.

I don't think that Rey suddenly gained Force powers as part of the "awakening"--I think they've been there all along but were suppressed either by the people who left her on Jakku or just by the very nature of Jakku itself.
@ISeeAnIsland

I very much agree with this. I don't think Rey's existence is what throws Kylo out of balance. I think there was a "breach", to quote @SanghaRen, around the age of 8 or so ... and, getting all mystical, Rey was born to bring him back ... or keeping with the Adam and Eve theme, to be his partner in balance. I think the breach is going to be something going wrong in the family that makes Ben feel abandoned. I agree that Snoke was at least watching since infanthood, but until the breach no whisperings could be heard. I actually don't think sending Ben away will be the breach. I think it will be something earlier, something in the family, something upsetting, and most likely something that unfortunately occurs at the same time that Ben has his "awakening". As a result, Ben will suddenly have power *and* be upset ... that means his power will be out of control and destructive, and that would mean a one-way trip to Luke, thus widening the breach and probably giving Snoke good access whenever Ben is unstable. I actually think Ben probably maintained decent stability and probably kept the dark at bay for years, but something withh that Vader reveal and perhaps some kind of dark side relic exposure and/or Luke's Force Camp taking a wrong turn opened the floodgates.
@SoloSideCousin

I've always seen the shipping off to Luke as something that really hurt him. I think some sort of destructive (likely impulsive and not entirely premeditated misuse of the Force) that scared his parents. If your parents are suddenly scared of and scared for you, that can be a very lasting sense of abandonment. In that type of circumstance, I could see Leia with very good intentions thinking she's sending Ben to Luke in order to protect him, so that he can control his baser force instincts. But for a young kid, it's easy to construe that as punishment, that something is wrong or broken with you--especially if it was a very unilateral decision that was made quickly with no discussion.

It could play out as the following:

*negative event*
*parents overheard arguing* (and this is where he could've formed some very lasting negative impressions of his father if Han said some very heated things in a fit of anger even if he loved his son very much.*
*things are packed*
*Ben loaded on the Falcon*
*Quick goodbye, parents leave, Ben is alone*

That is hard to process for a child. We're going to help you turns into We're going to punish you very quickly.

And if this had occurred, what was that "negative event"? Was it something so horrifying (example, death of teacher or peer) that a young Ben already felt that he was beyond help, that he needed to be punished for what he did, that was couldn't return from it no matter how much his parents or uncle loved him? Because that would be the perfect opportunity for Snoke to slip in--an emotionally very fragile and wounded child that already thinks the sentinel act is unforgivable.

That's the perfect opportunity to drive a wedge between a frightened child and his parents.

I think fear opened that breach because even then Ben was likely harder on himself than others were. This isn't a case of a "spoiled brat that had all the love in the world blah blah blah nonsense." This sounds like it could be linked to a very negative, sentinel event where the dark prevailed in an action and a child thought he was already past the point of no return because, in his mind, why would parents punish him by sending him away if he wasn't evil and bad.

On the flip side, what would make this even more tragic would be if Ben was innocent the whole time and Snoke created the sentinel event that Ben got blamed for. If he had a reputation for being hotheaded or impulsive, or his parents had reprimanded him for minor events previously, he would be taking the fall for something he never did. That would be an even bigger grudge /wedge to have with his parents. Resentment for perceived punishment for something he had no part of could definitely sow the seed of discontent and distrust for a long time. Especially if Snoke exploited it.

Now that I think of it, I may lean toward Snoke event/Ben Scapegoat as a definite possibility. Let's just say a teacher or peer died after Ben got angry and Snoke was responsible. Taking the fall for a death you didn't create would be something horrific, yet would fit this scenario very well. That may be exactly the type of twist Rian may be looking for---Ben ultimately fell because no one believed him and condemned him for something he did not commit.
@Macha Ren

Excellent posts on this subject all around @Macha Ren, @snufkin and @SanghaRen. Very Happy

And on the bolded, I am definitely on the same wavelength as you. I always thought that Snoke was responsible for the incident that got Ben sent away in the sense that he was flooding him with the dark and Ben did something crazy as a result. However, your scenario takes it to a whole new level, a brilliant and totally tragic level. I think @panki has talked in the past about a scenario where Ben might have wished ill on someone and then Snoke made it happen and then would manipulate Ben to the dark saying, "It's what you wanted to happen. That's who you are." But in this instance, there might have been some cracks forming in the family due to the parents always being separated or off-planet, or due to Han getting upset that Ben had an awakening in the force, or Ben himself being upset at awakening to force. Perhaps Ben never wanted it. Perhaps he wanted to be like his father. Kylo/Ben gives the impression of being very emotionally sensitive. If this was his natural way and *then* he became super force sensitive, this might have overwhelmed him terribly because he would feel everything like 100x more now. In the book there is a lot of talk how Kylo wants to suppress emotions. Now the novel is not exactly perfectly reliable, but there could be something there. Like @SanghaRen has said, the force could very well be a curse to Ben.

So all of this might have provided a slight crack for Snoke to be able to read his mind a bit. In that instance Snoke would probably find him to be struggling emotionally ... and what if he sees a thought where Ben is mad at someone and then watches and waits for just the right moment and Ben gets the blame. Because Ben is so young he couldn't really be held responsible, but at the same time the parents will think that he can't just live with people. So Leia, thinking she is fixing things, promptly shuttles him off. But to a kid that would feel like total punishment, like being exiled to some Jedi reform school while his parents go on their merry way without him. He may think he deserves it, or a part of him might believe that it was a mistake/accident and that if he proves himself, they will take him back ... but they never do. He might have waited for them for years just like Rey.

Further, I (and others) have considered a scenario where he gets the blame for whatever happens with Luke's Jedi Camp. The old shooting script had language indicating that Ben might have actually been kidnapped by the Knights of Ren. (Maybe that's changed, but they thought about it). Maybe the KoR tortured him to the dark. The new canon has that happen with Jedi Quinlan Vos in Dark Disciple. And what if the KoR kill the students and Ben gets the blame because he has gone missing ... but what if Ben did nothing wrong. What if it was just his parents accepting that news as confirmation that he really was "bad" like he was all those years ago and that "there was nothing they could do" (paraphrasing Han). Han and Leia have saved countless people. What if they didn't save their son when they could have because they doubted him, because they believed he was capable of killing everybody, just like Vader. The feelings of abandonment would be off the charts, and that would be perfect ammunition to use to turn him on his family. Why would he turn on them so completely? Unless he starts out as a jerk as Ben (like Anakin sort of did and Anakin was loyal to family), he wouldn't turn on them unless he felt like they had turned on him.

AD talks about Kylo holding a grudge and feeling abandoned. Kylo also does tell Han that he has been "waiting for [him] for a long time." That may be completely true, since Kylo never lies to anyone but Snoke. He may have waited for Han at Luke's Force Camp ... and he may have waited for his parents to rescue him from the KoR, (because that really is their big thing to take risks like that), ... and then they never came.

@SoloSideCousin

Awesome post!

To the point of the KoR thing, I do feel that we're getting hints that it could have been a kidnapping situation (or at least a situation where Ben's involvement wasn't particularly voluntary) with the new canon books. The whole thing in Life Debt with the Acolytes of the Beyond just screams of a situation where Ben (and perhaps Luke) were targeted as being living Vader relics. I think that you're dead-on in that there were probably two separate scenarios where Ben felt abandoned by his family--probably when he was first sent off to go train with his weird religious nut Uncle Luke, and then again, when his parents failed to rescue/retrieve him from the KoR. He'd be justifiably upset about both of those.

Now, I am one of those people who reads Kylo's behavior/language as a bit entitled in TFA, but to me, that doesn't at all preclude him from terrible things happening to him in the past. He's a nerd at heart, IMO, and honestly, most nerds that I know (myself included) have somewhat entitled attitudes about some things. I was re-watching High Fidelity for the first time in years on HBO the other night, and it really struck me how well Kylo would have fit in with the guys working at the record store there.
@ISeeAnIsland

Thank you! :-)

And I so agree with you on the two incident/abandonment thing and on the Dark Side relic thing. OMG, those Acolytes of the Beyond were one of the scariest things in that whole Life Debt book. There were a lot of evil things happening in that book, but that bit felt a lot more real world than some of the other things and that made it creepier, at least to me.

On entitlement, I actually don't read him as being highly entitled beyond him being a zealous advocate for his side in the fight. A lot of it seems like more of war/enemies/need intelligence kind of situation to me, and I guess I see that a little differently than traditional entitlement.

But your point about High Fidelity is really well taken. I see what you are talking about. He does have a something of that "know-it-all", nerdy, "Yeah, I'm smart and talented, what are your going to do about it?" thing when he is with Hux and Poe and with Rey at first, only at first with her. This attitude is actually a perfect insecurity cover. It's like he covers his massive inferiority complex with armor of superiority to guard himself. But by the time he gets to the Snow Fight he's been pretty well stripped of that and is just a mess. I mean some I guess see the "That lightsaber belongs to me" as being entitled, but in the end, he may just be stating a fact. Maz probably did steal his lightsaber. I don't see the "you need a teacher" thing as being particularly entitled either because he's kind of desperate and pretty crazy about her and just plain half crazy at that moment. But I think you're absolutely right, he does have "cool Kylo Ren" guard persona going on at times, and that guy acts like he knows everything when in fact Ben is actually a nervous wreck nerd who is freaking out inside. :-)

@Macha Ren wrote:I think another question that needs to be addressed is if Ben ever wanted to be trained to be a Jedi. If he got shoved off and expected to live a life of astheticism he never wanted, that could cause problems as well. What if his greater wish as a kid was just to be a normal kid?
@Macha Ren

I think this is a real possibility. There were a fair amount of hints of the parents being kind of sad that Ben was away. All those surrogate mentor children and that mention of Han wanting to teach his son. There was nothing like "Ben always wanted to be a Jedi" or "Ben felt the call of the force" like someone out of a Catholic Saints story book, where someone is called by God to start an order or something. They talk about Ben getting all dirty and being all happy with his friends. That sounds very Han-like to me. And probably at some point the force awakened in him and probably kind of ruined his life in such a way that his parents thought he had no choice but to be a Jedi because he was a prodigy and/or out of control with it.

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Macha Ren wrote:I think another question that needs to be addressed is if Ben ever wanted to be trained to be a Jedi. If he got shoved off and expected to live a life of astheticism he never wanted, that could cause problems as well. What if his greater wish as a kid was just to be a normal kid?
@Macha Ren

I've wondered if this was the case. The line from Bloodline about Ben running around and getting dirty like a typical little boy could possibly point to this. It might be headcanon, but I've also wondered if maybe Ben wanted to be a pilot like his dad at one point. Maybe Han had always wanted to mentor Ben in flying, and maybe that was something that Ben wanted as well, but instead, he gets shoved off to Uncle Luke's Charter School for the Force Sensitive. That could explain Han taking on surrogate sons and daughters as part of his racing team in Bloodline.

And depending on Luke's philosophy of Jedi teachings, I just can't see having to suppress his emotions going over well with Ben at all--not if he was at all like we see Kylo in TFA.
@ISeeAnIsland

I love the pilot headcanon too. I can't wait to see him fly. I hope they don't make him a Squib of flying or anything. I want him to have this mix of Han and Skywalker flying. For all we know he and Han could have been really close when he was little. He might have been a prodigy for flying as well, even before any force awakened ... and then when it did and he was sent away, that would have really hurt both of them. Leia did say it was a mistake to send him away and that she lost both Han and Ben when she did, as I am sure Han was not happy about that decision even if Ben did have control issues.

And I absolutely love "Uncle Luke's Charter School for the Force Sensitive"! That is brilliant! Very Happy

Oh and I think Luke probably did teach him the "Yoda way". I mean how could he not? What else would Luke know to do? Also, a lot of Luke's Jedi lore search might tell him the same "no emotion" kind of thing because the Jedi did that kind of training for centuries. Luke would have to go very far back, to when Jedi and Sith separated, to get a different version. And I imagine if the Jedi ran things for 1000 years, a lot of that knowledge that might have been okay with some emotion was probably well buried.


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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by snufkin on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 16:20

Total U.S.A.-ian reference but the whole concept of a dodgy Jedi academy immediately makes me think of Michelle Rhee's shadiness as the D.C. schools chancellor and head pro-corporate charter schools organization immediately makes think that whatever Luke was up to was some dodgy charter school. Granted I have friends who've worked in some really great charter schools that reach students who'd otherwise fall through the cracks in the American public (that's government-run) school system. But just like the jokes about how this is a world which has space ships but no Child Protective Services agencies, there also seems to be no real accrediting body for educational institutions. Between him and Snoke, they seem to have done a pretty bad job of helping Ben reach whatever his full potential is supposed to be.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 18:16

@snufkin wrote:Total U.S.A.-ian reference but the whole concept of a dodgy Jedi academy immediately makes me think of Michelle Rhee's shadiness as the D.C. schools chancellor and head pro-corporate charter schools organization immediately makes think that whatever Luke was up to was some dodgy charter school. Granted I have friends who've worked in some really great charter schools that reach students who'd otherwise fall through the cracks in the American public (that's government-run) school system. But just like the jokes about how this is a world which has space ships but no Child Protective Services agencies, there also seems to be no real accrediting body for educational institutions. Between him and Snoke, they seem to have done a pretty bad job of helping Ben reach whatever his full potential is supposed to be.
@snufkin

Yeah, I don't think anybody will be singing, "To Sir with Love" to either of those two force geniuses. Laughing They might be brilliant and super talented, but neither is a Jaime Escalante to Kylo/Ben, to throw in another teacher movie reference for @snufkin's sake. Very Happy (Stand and Deliver for those who don't remember the 80s. Or the guy Cartman was acting like but was really opposite of when South Park was mocking Bill Belachik (Coach of New England Patriots for the many of you who don't care about American football, but might watch South Park) Very Happy

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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by snufkin on Thu 4 Aug 2016 - 19:20

@SoloSideCousin - It certainly makes the whole "you need a teacher" offer interesting. Was it a sincere offer because he's had such a bad experience (likely) with Luke and Snoke? Is it an attempt to bypass both of those powerful Force users from getting near to her, especially because she literally is his discovery? Or is it a mixture of both, plus the eating from the Tree of Knowledge and "ways of the world" innuendo many of us have inferred from it? Besides family, it's made pretty clear that education/self improvement is also very important to her, so it could be a viable temptation.

Otherwise, Luke was probably sincere, but frustrating and unable to meet the exact needs of that student. Possible part of his turn to Snoke was the same offer of teaching him the things Luke couldn't/wouldn't teach him. Except that we do know he's been not completely trained for the past six years and likely growing more aware of how he was manipulated into serving a master whose ultimate goal is to use and discard him. Which also likely has something to do with his interest in Rey, sidestepping that whole situation with somebody else who could be an equally powerful ally.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by SanghaRen on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 2:58

@SoloSideCousin
I like your idea that Ben might have been waiting for his parents to come and get him back from Luke's school and they never came. I am very fond of the Force = Curse thing. How many prodigies feel that their gift is a curse. Sure, they still use their gift because it's part of who they are and it's familiar but at the same time they feel burdened by it. Thinking about it, the interrogation scene with Poe is quite showing. How can a prodigy-nerd not be irritated by Poe the cool guy who dares to even mock him or more specifically mock the costume he wears to give himself confidence. Plus if you think about it, knowing that he is the best pilot in the resistance places him close to... Leia. So we can assume that he has a hint of jealousy thinking the cool guy on the block probably gets his mother's respect and affection while he was deprived of it after being sent to Uncle Luke. But whether this hint of jealousy was actually ever discussed by JJ and AD, I doubt it, but to me you could read his wanting to hurt Poe during the mind probe from this angle too.

@Rimfaxe96
Luke is such a mystery at this point. Is he still using the Force at all? I think in the end they might show us very different ways of using the Force. Luke might be more like Yoda using the Force in a wise/measured way from a distance or in short powerful strikes while Kylo being more into the fight/playing mode and maybe always a bit flashy with it. Old vs young. I really hope Kylo keeps the style we saw in the snow battle. I just love that punch in Finn's face because it's so Han-like. Rey is also more of an opportunistic fighter. I think it fits with what people want to see nowadays. In terms of strength, I think Luke and Kylo would probably be equal, but I don't know if the trilogy will give us an answer on that.

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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by Jakku on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 5:00

@SanghaRen wrote:@SoloSideCousin
I like your idea that Ben might have been waiting for his parents to come and get him back from Luke's school and they never came. I am very fond of the Force = Curse thing. How many prodigies feel that their gift is a curse. Sure, they still use their gift because it's part of who they are and it's familiar but at the same time they feel burdened by it. Thinking about it, the interrogation scene with Poe is quite showing. How can a prodigy-nerd not be irritated by Poe the cool guy who dares to even mock him or more specifically mock the costume he wears to give himself confidence. Plus if you think about it, knowing that he is the best pilot in the resistance places him close to... Leia. So we can assume that he has a hint of jealousy thinking the cool guy on the block probably gets his mother's respect and affection while he was deprived of it after being sent to Uncle Luke. But whether this hint of jealousy was actually ever discussed by JJ and AD, I doubt it, but to me you could read his wanting to hurt Poe during the mind probe from this angle too.

@SanghaRen

I wonder if that's why TFA didn't show the meeting of Poe and Rey? Rey would have told Poe Kylo's real identity, and perhaps they want to keep that big reveal for VIII or IX, cf the Vader/Leia reveal in Bloodline.

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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 11:56

@SanghaRen wrote:@SoloSideCousin
I like your idea that Ben might have been waiting for his parents to come and get him back from Luke's school and they never came. I am very fond of the Force = Curse thing. How many prodigies feel that their gift is a curse. Sure, they still use their gift because it's part of who they are and it's familiar but at the same time they feel burdened by it. Thinking about it, the interrogation scene with Poe is quite showing. How can a prodigy-nerd not be irritated by Poe the cool guy who dares to even mock him or more specifically mock the costume he wears to give himself confidence. Plus if you think about it, knowing that he is the best pilot in the resistance places him close to... Leia. So we can assume that he has a hint of jealousy thinking the cool guy on the block probably gets his mother's respect and affection while he was deprived of it after being sent to Uncle Luke. But whether this hint of jealousy was actually ever discussed by JJ and AD, I doubt it, but to me you could read his wanting to hurt Poe during the mind probe from this angle too.

@Rimfaxe96
Luke is such a mystery at this point. Is he still using the Force at all? I think in the end they might show us very different ways of using the Force. Luke might be more like Yoda using the Force in a wise/measured way from a distance or in short powerful strikes while Kylo being more into the fight/playing mode and maybe always a bit flashy with it. Old vs young. I really hope Kylo keeps the style we saw in the snow battle. I just love that punch in Finn's face because it's so Han-like. Rey is also more of an opportunistic fighter. I think it fits with what people want to see nowadays. In terms of strength, I think Luke and Kylo would probably be equal, but I don't know if the trilogy will give us an answer on that.

@SanghaRen

I am totally with you on all of this!! But I have to say that the bolded part is pure brilliance. All we see at first is the bad guy and the hero, but when you look at the scene as "Leia's son talking to Leia's favorite, smooth, easily confident "flyboy" (which also would bring Han to Kylo's mind) what you say here *is absolutely happening.* Poe is so confident he messes with the guy who is arresting him. Kylo has to "wear the apparatus" just to get through the day. Sure the "best pilot in the Resistance" is a fun line, but it can also be revealing. Maybe Kylo isn't that great of a pilot because he has confidence issues. Maybe his talents lie elsewhere, in the "weird" force stuff that he maybe never wanted to have and his parents never understood. If you really dive down, Poe is the son that Han and Leia wanted. He is also the star quarterback while Kylo wins the Math Competitions. In other words, Ben could only dream of having that social confidence ... and to have his mother's surrogate "son" here (like all those others she mentored as we saw in Bloodline) while Ben was sent to Uncle's Luke's Charter School of the Force Sensitive ... whoa ... no wonder he didn't pull any punches with Poe once it was his turn to interrogate him! Though maybe if he resented Poe this much, he might have been "chomping at the bit" to have a go at him .... Instead he waited ... But maybe he didn't know who Poe was at first -OR- despite his supposed dark side status, he has enough "light" and conscience in him that the interrogations kind of sicken him (they talk about this in the novel a bit) and he is never in any hurry to do them.

As for JJ and AD, I think something like this might have been discussed. Because think about it, it is like a school hallway fight between Poe and Kylo. Poe wasn't deadly serious indignant like Han was when he saw Vader in that dining room in ESB. Poe decided to be a smarta**. Also, there was no chatting whatsoever between Vader and Han. Vader just tortured him, literally no questions asked. Kylo comes right in the "comfortable?" and "best pilot" business. This is setting up something. At the very least Poe and Kylo will have another scene with a trash talk rematch. But I think there might be a little more to it. Now that I think about it, I think JJ and AD may have actually considered some of this, hence the banter. Also, given that AD builds his characters down to the smallest detail, I think he may have thought about these kinds of things. Excellent thoughts all around @SanghaRen!

Also, @Jakku, total brilliance! You are right! They are saving the Ben reveal. I bet it comes at the end of Episode VIII when Poe is at the end of his rope.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by vaderito on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 12:09

At the very least Poe and Kylo will have another scene with a trash talk rematch.

I hope not. I find Poe's brand of douche so irritating and would hate to skip a scene with Kylo just because of him. I skip all Poe scenes anyway and NOT looking forward to his expanded role in VIII.

I agree that there may be jealousy but that would be stupid of Kylo. Like, lol, jealous of that guy.


Last edited by vaderito on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 12:18; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 12:18

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@SanghaRen wrote:@SoloSideCousin
I like your idea that Ben might have been waiting for his parents to come and get him back from Luke's school and they never came. I am very fond of the Force = Curse thing. How many prodigies feel that their gift is a curse. Sure, they still use their gift because it's part of who they are and it's familiar but at the same time they feel burdened by it. Thinking about it, the interrogation scene with Poe is quite showing. How can a prodigy-nerd not be irritated by Poe the cool guy who dares to even mock him or more specifically mock the costume he wears to give himself confidence. Plus if you think about it, knowing that he is the best pilot in the resistance places him close to... Leia. So we can assume that he has a hint of jealousy thinking the cool guy on the block probably gets his mother's respect and affection while he was deprived of it after being sent to Uncle Luke. But whether this hint of jealousy was actually ever discussed by JJ and AD, I doubt it, but to me you could read his wanting to hurt Poe during the mind probe from this angle too.

@Rimfaxe96
Luke is such a mystery at this point. Is he still using the Force at all? I think in the end they might show us very different ways of using the Force. Luke might be more like Yoda using the Force in a wise/measured way from a distance or in short powerful strikes while Kylo being more into the fight/playing mode and maybe always a bit flashy with it. Old vs young. I really hope Kylo keeps the style we saw in the snow battle. I just love that punch in Finn's face because it's so Han-like. Rey is also more of an opportunistic fighter. I think it fits with what people want to see nowadays. In terms of strength, I think Luke and Kylo would probably be equal, but I don't know if the trilogy will give us an answer on that.

@SanghaRen

I am totally with you on all of this!! But I have to say that the bolded part is pure brilliance. All we see at first is the bad guy and the hero, but when you look at the scene as "Leia's son talking to Leia's favorite, smooth, easily confident "flyboy" (which also would bring Han to Kylo's mind) what you say here *is absolutely happening.* Poe is so confident he messes with the guy who is arresting him. Kylo has to "wear the apparatus" just to get through the day. Sure the "best pilot in the Resistance" is a fun line, but it can also be revealing. Maybe Kylo isn't that great of a pilot because he has confidence issues. Maybe his talents lie elsewhere, in the "weird" force stuff that he maybe never wanted to have and his parents never understood. If you really dive down, Poe is the son that Han and Leia wanted. He is also the star quarterback while Kylo wins the Math Competitions. In other words, Ben could only dream of having that social confidence ... and to have his mother's surrogate "son" here (like all those others she mentored as we saw in Bloodline) while Ben was sent to Uncle's Luke's Charter School of the Force Sensitive ... whoa ... no wonder he didn't pull any punches with Poe once it was his turn to interrogate him! Though maybe if he resented Poe this much, he might have been "chomping at the bit" to have a go at him .... Instead he waited ... But maybe he didn't know who Poe was at first -OR- despite his supposed dark side status, he has enough "light" and conscience in him that the interrogations kind of sicken him (they talk about this in the novel a bit) and he is never in any hurry to do them.

As for JJ and AD, I think something like this might have been discussed. Because think about it, it is like a school hallway fight between Poe and Kylo. Poe wasn't deadly serious indignant like Han was when he saw Vader in that dining room in ESB. Poe decided to be a smarta**. Also, there was no chatting whatsoever between Vader and Han. Vader just tortured him, literally no questions asked. Kylo comes right in the "comfortable?" and "best pilot" business. This is setting up something. At the very least Poe and Kylo will have another scene with a trash talk rematch. But I think there might be a little more to it. Now that I think about it, I think JJ and AD may have actually considered some of this, hence the banter. Also, given that AD builds his characters down to the smallest detail, I think he may have thought about these kinds of things. Excellent thoughts all around @SanghaRen!

Also, @Jakku, total brilliance! You are right! They are saving the Ben reveal. I bet it comes at the end of Episode VIII when Poe is at the end of his rope.
@SoloSideCousin

Just to add to all of this, also throw in that Poe is ridiculously classically handsome on top of being "the school quarterback." While I know that most of us find AD/Kylo incredibly hot, Poe is the one that has the more typical "movie star" looks.

I've read some criticisms of Poe being sort of a "Han Solo 2.0" (classic good looks, pilot, being a smart-a**, etc). Perhaps that was intentional to set up a dynamic between him and Kylo.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by vaderito on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 12:24

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Just to add to all of this, also throw in that Poe is ridiculously classically handsome on top of being "the school quarterback." While I know that most of us find AD/Kylo incredibly hot, Poe is the one that has the more typical "movie star" looks.

OK, in SW universe Kylo seems confident about his looks which is why he eagerly took off his mask for Rey. So whatever people think of actors, who's hotter, etc, does not reflect SW reality.

I've read some criticisms of Poe being sort of a "Han Solo 2.0" (classic good looks, pilot, being a smart-a**, etc). Perhaps that was intentional to set up a dynamic between him and Kylo.
@ISeeAnIsland

I don't think that dynamic between them will exist or be explored beyond TFA. That was it. They don't have reason to cross paths. Poe's sector is military, Kylo's is the Force. I can't see where those plots would converge to require these 2 characters in the same scene ever again. They won't go with Prisoner!Kylo or Deserter!Kylo scenario where he would end up with the Resistance in VIII.

Again Poor Man's Han (too perfect, never butt of jokes).

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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by IoJovi on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 12:34

@vaderito wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:  

Just to add to all of this, also throw in that Poe is ridiculously classically handsome on top of being "the school quarterback." While I know that most of us find AD/Kylo incredibly hot, Poe is the one that has the more typical "movie star" looks.

OK, in SW universe Kylo seems confident about his looks which is why he eagerly took off his mask for Rey. So whatever people think of actors, who's hotter, etc, does not reflect SW reality.

I've read some criticisms of Poe being sort of a "Han Solo 2.0" (classic good looks, pilot, being a smart-a**, etc). Perhaps that was intentional to set up a dynamic between him and Kylo.
@ISeeAnIsland

I don't think that dynamic between them will exist or be explored beyond TFA. That was it. They don't have reason to cross paths. Poe's sector is military, Kylo's is the Force. I can't see where those plots would converge to require these 2 characters in the same scene ever again. They won't go with Prisoner!Kylo or Deserter!Kylo scenario where he would end up with the Resistance in VIII.

Again Poor Man's Han (too perfect, never butt of jokes).

@vaderito

I don't dislike Poe at all, but he will be firmly entrenched in the B-Plot just like Finn, whereas Kylo will be planted in the A-plot alongside Rey and Luke.  You're right - I don't see their paths crossing again any time soon.  If they do cross again, I see it happening in IX after Kylo has undergone some sort of transformation (to what extent that will be is another conversation).

If it happens the way I imagine it, it could be towards the end of the film (IX).  It would convey the contrast between their first meeting on Jakku and that final scene, showing just how the dynamic would change with Ben/Kylo vs everyone else.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by vaderito on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 12:38

@IoJovi "I can fly anything" line did it for me. There's something so smug and off putting in the line and the way he delivers it that I was, like "Bye Felicia". "give them all you got" didn't help either. Those are so called power lines that nobody quotes yet you can see they were designed to become quotable.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by IoJovi on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 12:42

@vaderito wrote:@IoJovi "I can fly anything" line did it for me. There's something so smug and off putting in the line and the way he delivers it that I was, like "Bye Felicia". "give them all you got" didn't help either. Those are so called power lines that nobody quotes yet you can see they were designed to become quotable.
@vaderito

Yeah I can see that about him. Bottom line though is that Poe is a character that already has his sith all in order and his ducks in a row. As someone else pointed out - he's the all-star quarterback everyone loves. There's no further character development needed, unlike Rey, Kylo and Finn. I understand that his role has been expanded for VIII which I too am just....feh. Hopefully we will get some interesting dynamic with him and Laura Dern's character as I understand they are supposed to butt heads, in a similar way to Kylo and Hux.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 12:47

@IoJovi wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:  

Just to add to all of this, also throw in that Poe is ridiculously classically handsome on top of being "the school quarterback." While I know that most of us find AD/Kylo incredibly hot, Poe is the one that has the more typical "movie star" looks.

OK, in SW universe Kylo seems confident about his looks which is why he eagerly took off his mask for Rey. So whatever people think of actors, who's hotter, etc, does not reflect SW reality.

I've read some criticisms of Poe being sort of a "Han Solo 2.0" (classic good looks, pilot, being a smart-a**, etc). Perhaps that was intentional to set up a dynamic between him and Kylo.
@ISeeAnIsland

I don't think that dynamic between them will exist or be explored beyond TFA. That was it. They don't have reason to cross paths. Poe's sector is military, Kylo's is the Force. I can't see where those plots would converge to require these 2 characters in the same scene ever again. They won't go with Prisoner!Kylo or Deserter!Kylo scenario where he would end up with the Resistance in VIII.

Again Poor Man's Han (too perfect, never butt of jokes).

@vaderito

I don't dislike Poe at all, but he will be firmly entrenched in the B-Plot just like Finn, whereas Kylo will be planted in the A-plot alongside Rey and Luke.  You're right - I don't see their paths crossing again any time soon.  If they do cross again, I see it happening in IX after Kylo has undergone some sort of transformation (to what extent that will be is another conversation).

If it happens the way I imagine it, it could be towards the end of the film (IX).  It would convey the contrast between their first meeting on Jakku and that final scene, showing just how the dynamic would change with Ben/Kylo vs everyone else.
@IoJovi

Oh, I agree that I can't see the A Plots and B Plots meeting up in VIII, outside of Luke returning to the Resistance (based on what we've heard about his costume change, seeing the beard trim, etc).

But if anything romantic happens between Rey and Kylo before the end of IX, I also can't see TPTB passing up the dramatic potential of putting Rey and Kylo in a position where they'd need to interact with Finn and Poe in some way.
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Re: Kylo could become stronger than Vader

Post by vaderito on Fri 5 Aug 2016 - 12:54

@ISeeAnIsland Interaction with Finn makes sense but Poe? Rey doesn't even know who he is! Laughing
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