Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Rogue Rey on Sun 11 Dec - 15:45

I wholeheartedly agree that Kylo Ren will be redeemed and Leia will get her Ben back and he'll live (otherwise it's a repeat of the redemption on death that we've already seen (Vader) and why would TPTB really want to repeat themselves and open themselves up (even more) for people accusing the new trilogy of being a rip off of the OT!)

Anyway while I believe this will happen there is something about the Han death scene that kinda bugs me:



I do and don't get why Kylo thanks his Father, but I'm far from being articulate to put my thoughts into words Sad

Oh and I keep seeing people believing Han killed himself as a sacrifice for his son.  Does anyone think that this theory is at all plausible?
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by CienaRee on Sun 11 Dec - 17:07

@Rogue Rey wrote:I wholeheartedly agree that Kylo Ren will be redeemed and Leia will get her Ben back and he'll live (otherwise it's a repeat of the redemption on death that we've already seen (Vader) and why would TPTB really want to repeat themselves and open themselves up (even more) for people accusing the new trilogy of being a rip off of the OT!)

Anyway while I believe this will happen there is something about the Han death scene that kinda bugs me:



I do and don't get why Kylo thanks his Father, but I'm far from being articulate to put my thoughts into words Sad

Oh and I keep seeing people believing Han killed himself as a sacrifice for his son.  Does anyone think that this theory is at all plausible?
@Rogue Rey
It's really scary when you heart thwese words coming from Kylo because you understand how damaged he is.You get the sense that something is terribly wrong with him when he keepds having these outbursts but this just goes into a completly different level.
I think it can be argued that what Han was doing was suicidal.I mean even if his intention wasn't to die he must have known there was a huge chance he might die not to mention that he was the one who believed that Kylo was too much like Vader and he couldn't be saved so I don't think he was naive enough to believe that there was a chance that Kylo could kill him.And his last thoughts were hoping his son will forgive him so I think in a way he did sacrifice himself(that doesn't take away from the horribale thing Kylo's done ofcourse and Im sure that will aways haunt him and he'll have to face what he's done in the next movies).

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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Hasi on Sun 11 Dec - 18:16

Just my opinion but I always saw Kylo as redeemable, and seeing him walking away from Snoke would just be a natural development of the story I saw in TFA, same for him and Rey developing romantic feelings for each other. He's on his own "coming of age" journey, just as Rey and Finn. Of course nobody knows how and when these things will happen and it will definitely be a bumpy road, but that's also what makes the story compelling.
For all these fanboys that think that Han's death will preclude any chance of him being redeemed, honestly they just have to see how the movie chose to portray Kylo during the story and during the bridge scene with Han, the things they say when they meet and especially what happens after Kylo kills him, i.e. what Han does before falling in the void and Kylo's reaction and feelings. That basically gives you all the answers you need. I would understand it if his character were portrayed like Hux for example, especially after hearing an evil laugh after stabbing his father or Han cursing him before falling. I would be the first person not rooting for him if that were the case, and basically he would be living on borrowed time, but that's not what happened in the movie.
The whole "Kylo is miserable and just gets more miserable before being killed off by Rey, who then roams the galaxy as a perfect space jedi amazon punishing the bad guys. She wears a chastity belt because she's a pure cinnamon roll and occasionally visits her new adoptive mother Leia Organa (who's happy that her son is gone for good at last, plus now the Skywalkers have their rightful heir) and meets up with her other perfect friends" is not what I consider a progressive and interesting story and it wouldn't even make sense based on what I saw in the first movie of this trilogy.


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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by ZioRen on Sun 11 Dec - 18:16

@Rogue Rey wrote:I wholeheartedly agree that Kylo Ren will be redeemed and Leia will get her Ben back and he'll live (otherwise it's a repeat of the redemption on death that we've already seen (Vader) and why would TPTB really want to repeat themselves and open themselves up (even more) for people accusing the new trilogy of being a rip off of the OT!)

Anyway while I believe this will happen there is something about the Han death scene that kinda bugs me:



I do and don't get why Kylo thanks his Father, but I'm far from being articulate to put my thoughts into words Sad

Oh and I keep seeing people believing Han killed himself as a sacrifice for his son.  Does anyone think that this theory is at all plausible?
@Rogue Rey

I always read it as Kylo thanking him because at this point he believes that he's done what he has to do to snuff all the light inside of him. He thanks Han for giving him the ability to do that by coming out to "help" him. Of course, it doesn't end up working!

As for Han sacrificing himself, I don't think "sacrifice" was necessarily the intention, but I completely believe that he walked out there half expecting to die. He seems to have no delusions about what his son is capable of, but he thought it was worth it to give it one last try. After all, it seems like there was probably a near 50-50 chance that Kylo would have actually gone with him, based on the acting cues and what the directors have said.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Hasi on Sun 11 Dec - 20:16

@Rogue Rey wrote:I wholeheartedly agree that Kylo Ren will be redeemed and Leia will get her Ben back and he'll live (otherwise it's a repeat of the redemption on death that we've already seen (Vader) and why would TPTB really want to repeat themselves and open themselves up (even more) for people accusing the new trilogy of being a rip off of the OT!)

Anyway while I believe this will happen there is something about the Han death scene that kinda bugs me:



I do and don't get why Kylo thanks his Father, but I'm far from being articulate to put my thoughts into words Sad

Oh and I keep seeing people believing Han killed himself as a sacrifice for his son.  Does anyone think that this theory is at all plausible?
@Rogue Rey

This is just how I've always read that scene, but: we know that this was basically Snoke's ultimate test, asking Kylo to choose between the dark side/Snoke and the light side/his family (and we know that Snoke is only using him for his power and wants Kylo to deny everything about his former life, starting from his own name). But as Kylo says to his father, being by Snoke's side but not being able to suppress the pull to the light  is tearing him apart, and he's suffering so badly that he'd do anything to make it stop. As JJ said, a part of him desperately wants to go back home to his parents, but he believes that it's too late for that, and he feels that the only last solution available for him is choosing the dark side hoping that the pain will stop and choosing to believe Snoke, choosing to believe that he's wise. When he thanks Han, I think that was Kylo wanting to believe that he made the right choice. But then his father touches his face and that's the last thing he does before dying, after years without seeing each other, and in the moment after Han falls it's like everything comes crashing down on him: not only the pain didn't stop, it only got worse, he didn't feel the power that Snoke promised him but only weaker, and he realized for the first time in his life that his father loved him, and he loved him so much that he was willing to die for him. Kylo was too lost at that point, and something like this had to happen for him to admit to himself the truth about Snoke and open his eyes once for all, and eventually break free. Also, the movie already shows that he's not integrated with the First Order, that he lies to Snoke, that he lets his personal interests (coughRey cough) interfere with Snoke's orders, and that he wanted to avoid a confrontation with Han, so in a way that foreshadows a lot of things.
Han and Kylo scenes have many parallels with Luke and Darth Vader in ROTJ: Darth Vader telling Luke that his older name and life have no longer meanings for him --> Kylo saying to Snoke that his father means nothing to him; Luke telling his father that he feels the conflict within him and to let go of his hate, but Darth Vader tells him that it's too late--> Han telling his son to go back home together, but Kylo tells him that it's too late for him. But what happens next, in both cases, proves that what they said it's not the truth: Darth Vader kills his master to save his son, so he obviously loves him, and Kylo immediately regrets and feels pain for what he has done, so he cares for his father, because otherwise he obviously wouln't feel like that. Just like Darth Vader sacrificed himself so that his son could live, to me Han did the same for Kylo, or better, he did something that was necessary for Kylo to save himself from the darkness, in this sense maybe we will see the effects of Han's death on Kylo's actions in the long term/in the next two movies. Two fathers died so that their son could live and go on, this is what saved Luke, and what I think will save Kylo too in the end. With his last action Han planted new seeds in his son, metaphorically speaking, and I think that sooner or later we will see them bloom. There are various awakenings in the story, for many characters, and this moment to me is one of the awakenings Kylo has during the movie. Also: Han caressing his cheek was his way of saying "I love you and I forgive you, forgive me for not being there for you when you needed it", to make things right for his son for once. The ending of TFA, with Kylo utterly defeated and scarred by Rey, makes it very clear to him and to the viewers that what he did was very, very wrong, that was the moral of the story for him. The way Rey breaks his lightsaber on the ground while they both hold the blue lightsaber (=the Light) up in the air can be seen as a foreshadowing, too. But yeah, I think that Han's death won't be for nothing, or only for Kylo to get more evil given the way killing his father affected him. I also don't think that Kylo will die because in this sense, a sacrifice has already been made to give Kylo the chance to redeem himself. Darth Vader had his redemption a few moments before dying, even if there weren't many signs that pointed to that, so I can't imagine tptb doing the same with a character like Kylo, who's shown to be conflicted from the first movie. And we don't know what happened for him to be with Snoke, but we know that it's not for reasons like "Mom and dad didn't buy me a new spaceship for my sweet sixteen, so I've gone with the dark side because I'm a spoiled brat and I didn't get what I wanted", and he's not a heartless villain. He's a lost boy as KK said, and I think that in the end he will find where he truly belongs, and whom he belongs with. Meeting Rey already affected him, and maybe spending time with her + Han's death are going to be the things that will finally spoil every plan Snoke has for Kylo.
Omg this is long and messy, I hope that what I wrote isn't too confusing? Sorry if that's the case!

P.S. I forgot an important part! That line in Bloodline when Leia feels Ben for the first time:
[quote=""As such, she is suddenly aware of her child's mind and spirit: She senses pluck and wit and steel blood and a keen mind and by the blood of Alderaan is this one going to be a fighter!]"[/quote]
I think that Kylo still has all these things inside him, and once he finds the right cause and/or person to fight for, I think they will be back stronger than ever!
Also, in the last months a lot of official posts and merchandise have shown a maskless Kylo, and this is important: they want you to remember that he's not a cruel and faceless creature in a mask, but a human being, a young man with actual feelings and emotions (and great hair). I don't think it's casual, just like all the post with Rey and Finn with the word "friendship/friends" in them. They want you to associate Finn and Rey with the word "friends" (in case the movie didn't make it clear already), just like from time to time they want the audience to remember who's the person under the mask. The times they did this with Darth Vader when it comes to the merchandise and posts are probably rare, probably because he was an old ruined man who was at the end of his life and chose to die doing the right thing, and maybe also because a lot of people love to remember the "cool villain who force-chokes people" aspect of his character. Kylo is a young man who hopefully will have his whole life to make things right, even if he would have to face many struggles.


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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by LondonGal555 on Sun 11 Dec - 20:26

^^^^^^^ amazing post. Plus Kylo is the last Skywalker. I wonder what girl will help him continue the line :-)

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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Macha Ren on Mon 12 Dec - 18:37

@Scavengerscum wrote:For me, Ben is garaunteed to be redeemed. I even think he'll live. My concerns are for how he'll get there. Snoke is going to finish his training; how does that impact what happened with Han on the bridge? What kind of suffering is in store for him, how will he begin to recover himself, what quality of life will Ben have after all this? Will the writers do this character justice? I guess all these high stakes questions is what makes Kylos potential redemption arc so compelling. I actually hope that most people will be rewarded by his story - even all the haters, etc. I want them to be so blown away by this characters journey that every perception that they have of TFA is blown to smitherines and that every part of that movies holds new significance to them. I honestly hope and actually believe that most people will love Ben/Kylo and be rooting for his redemption. Its optimistic yeah, but I trust the writers especially if TFA is anything to go by.
@Scavengerscum

He's the Skywalker of the tale. He's not the hero, but he's still the heir. As the whole journey began in ANH with Luke watching the twin suns of Tatooine set in the distance while Binary Sunset played, I full expect that this trilogy ending up with Ben Solo doing the same thing on that planet, perhaps reexploring what it means to walk the footsteps of his family on Tatooine watching the suns set while Binary Sunset closes out the trilogy. Maybe Rey joins him to watch it. It would wrap thing up nicely if they decide this is the end of the Skywalker saga. Things would come full circle.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by LondonGal555 on Mon 12 Dec - 18:45

Kylo and Rey are the subtle central romance that Jj Abrams and Oscar Issac talk about. They'll end up together or you'll see the start of love at the end. . There's no way Disney will just stop after this trilogy. They've made so much money and make more on the trilogys. Even if it's in ten years im certain they'll make more. George Lucus had 12 in mind but wanted it to continue which is why he sold it to Disney.
Kathleen Kennedy said in January all the directors etc are coming together to come up with ideas on what to do.

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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by MeadowofAshes on Mon 19 Dec - 4:07

Can Kylo be redeemed? He better be since that's what's foreshadowed with son/sun, "I can fix it", and the highly ironic "I will not be seduced". Lol.

I guess I just look at it more in terms of, how are they going to get there? But we sortof already know this. He betrayed and murdered his father. Therefore, he has to be willing to sacrifice himself to be redeemed for that. Who's it going to be for? Well, seeing as Rey is the protagonist, she's his "pull to the light", and his character development started with selfish, creepy fixation on her it will likely move toward selfless devotion to her. I would be willing to bet money he sacrifices himself for her, and it's a near-death experience in which he is "reborn" (rebirth of the sun/son) as Ben Solo.

Seeing as this is a fairy tale, I'm also willing to hedge bets it involves a "kiss of life", but I'm less certain about that.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Maria26 on Mon 19 Dec - 10:54

Kylo is 100% getting redeemed. He wasn't introduced as a full on villain. There are more layers to his character. The pieces of good that were still inside him in TFA were show for a reason. Also, I'm so over people saying that KK said that the saga would be about the Skywalkers, so that means Rey has to be one as well. Is it really that hard to understand that Kylo is both a Skywalker and a Solo and that's he's the Skywalker of the story. Story which focus and will focus on both Rey and Kylo as the most important characters of the tale.


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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Saracene on Mon 19 Dec - 11:30

I kinda feel like many people see the question "can Kylo be redeemed" more as, "can I personally forgive him for killing my favourite character".

And sure, maybe some people will never forgive him for killing Han, whatever he does to atone. But it has no bearing on whether the redemption storyline will happen or not.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Macha Ren on Mon 19 Dec - 12:43

Without spoiling Rogue One, the film was an excellent reminder of what a monster really is. It was a terrifying version of Vader, perhaps the best and scariest version of the entire saga.

He is a villain. There is no conflict. He is pure evil.

He is everything Kylo is not in TFA. There is no hesitation.

If we are looking at this as a continuum, it proves Kylo is nothing like Vader. It tells me his inner conflict will be reexplored and that he cannot truly be a monster. It tells me redemption is his path.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by WhatGirl on Mon 19 Dec - 15:35

@Maria26 wrote:Kylo is 100% getting redeemed. He wasn't introduced as a full on villain. There are more layers to his character. The piece of good that were still inside him in TFA were show for a reason. Also, I'm so over people saying that KK said that the saga would be about the Skywalkers, so that means Rey has to be one as well. Is it really that hard to understand that Kylo is both a Skywalker and a Solo and that's he's the Skywalker of the story. Story which focus and will focus on both Rey and Kylo as the most important characters of the tale.
@Maria26

Totally agree. I mean, Kylo started off really dark and strong in TFA but it went down from there, not up. He pushed himself into doing horrific things that he thought would make him more powerful but the exact opposite happened. Killing his father did not rid himself of the pull to the light, but filled him with regret instead.

And come on now - Rey's name is practically a play of 'ray of light'. She has already caused him to lose track of his goals in TFA. The map to Ahch-To was right there in her head but despite being so obsessed with finding Luke, he suddenly didn't give a damn about that and focused rather on her memories growing up on Jakku. He felt something for her and this will have a significant role in his redemption, I think.

The films are centered on the Skywalkers and it's confirmed that Kylo is not only the Skywalker of TFA but also that he fills the Skywalker requirement for the trilogy itself. Rey is our protagonist and we're seeing everything through her eyes but she is not herself related to the Skywalkers or Solos - although it's my personal belief that she will be one day. Wink

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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by snufkin on Mon 19 Dec - 18:22

@MeadowofAshes wrote:his character development started with selfish, creepy fixation on her it will likely move toward selfless devotion to her. I would be willing to bet money he sacrifices himself for her

@MeadowofAshes

I kind of think that's where they'll revisit "He's got too much ______ in him." Because while Han says that it's Vader, there's the original line about the son being like the father. And we all know how Han goes from "I'm just in this for the money" to being the guy who sacrifices himself for both his wife and his son.

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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by MeadowofAshes on Mon 19 Dec - 18:31

@snufkin wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:his character development started with selfish, creepy fixation on her it will likely move toward selfless devotion to her. I would be willing to bet money he sacrifices himself for her

@MeadowofAshes

I kind of think that's where they'll revisit "He's got too much ______ in him." Because while Han says that it's Vader, there's the original line about the son being like the father. And we all know how Han goes from "I'm just in this for the money" to being the guy who sacrifices himself for both his wife and his son.

@snufkin

Absolutely. I've joked before I'd have a fangasm if someone was discouraging Ben from going after Rey and his response was similar to, "Then I'll see you in hell". But seriously, I'm convinced we'll see his father's qualities in him as the trilogy progresses, especially since he declared that Ben was weak and foolish like his father so he destroyed him. That's gotta come up again, and I think you have the right of it. A perfect parallel to Luke having "too much of his father in him".
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by guardienne on Wed 11 Jan - 20:09

i doubt this will come as a surprise to anyone but i sort of had to argue this for myself...

this is an attempt to write about redemption and recovery narrative and maybe find some clarity in the what’s what and so on.
the first problem for me at the moment is that the title, the very clumsy title, implies that there is a comparison between those possible. i don’t think there is. but at the same time i’m really confused over what quality each narrative brings to a story.
when i started discussing star wars with people all these years back, redemption got thrown around as a term quite a bit and i remember accepting it pretty easily. this is what darth vader’s narrative is called. he redeems himself, like a gift voucher, he turns himself in and allows something nice to happen. his life is a sacrifice, he becomes good again. and because we have 6 films about darth vader (seven now, if you’re counting Rogue One, which isn’t about darth vader but still... count as you like, really), we can see the ‘journey’ he undergoes, we can become elevated by the meditation on how a good person such as anakin skywalker, who became entangled in destiny and galactic politics, how this person is being brought back to the world from where he dwells in the underworld and he gives his life in a gesture that exudes love for another when we thought he’d become incapable of that.
there is a whole essay about what a redemption arc needs: https://ohtze.tumblr.com/post/14516... it‘s important that certain steps are followed apparently so the audience is on board with all of it.
but it all implies that there is a good and there is a bad and that characters who have through various circumstances ended up on the bad side, well, they can return to what we deem is good.
so, when people argue towards redemption for kylo ren, i think what they are saying, he needs to give of himself so that he can be taken back and allow something nice to happen, - the gift voucher. and they will often argue that it’s basic repetition of the story. i have also seen it argued that not giving his life would allow for a lot more suffering etc, because he’d have to carry on living with himself, having made such horrendous mistakes in his life.
well, what do i know.
there’s been a lot of effort made especially from the side of adam driver, to establish that neither dark side nor light side are that different, that their perception of themselves is basically the same. that kylo ren isn’t a villain. there are some hints in the movie, that the sides are perhaps equal, not least established in the characters of kylo ren and rey themselves when they invade each other’s minds and duel. they are matched in strength. they aren’t *the same* but they are equal.
so, how would redemption apply to this kind of situation where we don’t know *where* to will this character? if they are both equally right and wrong, there’s nowhere to go.
redemption becomes difficult if not impossible.
the other issue i have with that kind of redemption is that it presupposes that the character is only good for sacrifice. that their function enables the other characters to live. in the case of darth vader this makes sense, he’s lived a life, he has spawned a new generation of people who can f**** things up. purpose fulfilled.
but characters who are younger and haven’t yet lived much or have been given space to develop their own identity, their sacrifice would acquire a very nihilist hue.
so, in my mind, redemption comes with the moral weight of deciding what’s good and what’s bad, and it also reduces the character to a prop for another story.
for a year now, i’ve been interested in recovery narrative.
recovery is a mental health model. you can read all about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recov...
the central idea is that it empowers patients to be in charge of themselves. especially in mental health, there’s ‘traditionally’ been an emphasis on institutionalisation. establishing autonomy for someone suffering from mental health problems is key to helping them create meaning for themselves. meaning is something pretty sacred to me to begin with and ‘making meaning’ rather than having meaning given to you makes a huge and palpable difference to me.
recovery assumes that there can be participation again in whatever kind of community there is.
it’s about the person, rather than their function and usefulness to others.
of course, you can now ask yourself what’s that got to do with star wars and how?? and you’d be right. i have only got an inkling of an idea and a pretty strong desire to see something that is well-executed and that accounts for kylo ren’s background and the murky morality of what the galaxy far far away is about or is implied to be about.
what i think about a lot is how the narrative is an aid to learning abot the world, how it can engage your own sense of identity and how the audience can participate in the story and see themselves. tragedy is a way to invite pity and fear and to challenge the audience’s empathy.
because we are dealing with the son of han and leia, the idea of him carrying on living and being able to integrate his disparate parts into a whole, is utterly appealing not just from a mental health perspective, and let’s face it, metaphorically this is all about metal health.
there also aren’t, in any way i can think of, model narratives of what mental health recovery is. (the ohtze essay, if nothing else, proves the ubiquity of reemption stories, on the other hand.) the potential in star wars is that the story can liberally be invested with all the metaphorical imagery you can shake a stick at. fantasy telling larger than life stories and being able to invest the narrative with more universal themes than a more realist approach would be (and there’s nothing wrong with realist approaches) .  
i think recovery has the greater potential to enrich the saga beyond a simplistic model of right and wrong, bad and good, and star wars is so ready for that.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 12 Jan - 9:52

@guardienne wrote:i doubt this will come as a surprise to anyone but i sort of had to argue this for myself...

this is an attempt to write about redemption and recovery narrative and maybe find some clarity in the what’s what and so on.
the first problem for me at the moment is that the title, the very clumsy title, implies that there is a comparison between those possible. i don’t think there is. but at the same time i’m really confused over what quality each narrative brings to a story.
when i started discussing star wars with people all these years back, redemption got thrown around as a term quite a bit and i remember accepting it pretty easily. this is what darth vader’s narrative is called. he redeems himself, like a gift voucher, he turns himself in and allows something nice to happen. his life is a sacrifice, he becomes good again. and because we have 6 films about darth vader (seven now, if you’re counting Rogue One, which isn’t about darth vader but still... count as you like, really), we can see the ‘journey’ he undergoes, we can become elevated by the meditation on how a good person such as anakin skywalker, who became entangled in destiny and galactic politics, how this person is being brought back to the world from where he dwells in the underworld and he gives his life in a gesture that exudes love for another when we thought he’d become incapable of that.
there is a whole essay about what a redemption arc needs: https://ohtze.tumblr.com/post/14516... it‘s important that certain steps are followed apparently so the audience is on board with all of it.
but it all implies that there is a good and there is a bad and that characters who have through various circumstances ended up on the bad side, well, they can return to what we deem is good.
so, when people argue towards redemption for kylo ren, i think what they are saying, he needs to give of himself so that he can be taken back and allow something nice to happen, - the gift voucher. and they will often argue that it’s basic repetition of the story. i have also seen it argued that not giving his life would allow for a lot more suffering etc, because he’d have to carry on living with himself, having made such horrendous mistakes in his life.
well, what do i know.
there’s been a lot of effort made especially from the side of adam driver, to establish that neither dark side nor light side are that different, that their perception of themselves is basically the same. that kylo ren isn’t a villain. there are some hints in the movie, that the sides are perhaps equal, not least established in the characters of kylo ren and rey themselves when they invade each other’s minds and duel. they are matched in strength. they aren’t *the same* but they are equal.
so, how would redemption apply to this kind of situation where we don’t know *where* to will this character? if they are both equally right and wrong, there’s nowhere to go.
redemption becomes difficult if not impossible.
the other issue i have with that kind of redemption is that it presupposes that the character is only good for sacrifice. that their function enables the other characters to live. in the case of darth vader this makes sense, he’s lived a life, he has spawned a new generation of people who can f**** things up. purpose fulfilled.
but characters who are younger and haven’t yet lived much or have been given space to develop their own identity, their sacrifice would acquire a very nihilist hue.
so, in my mind, redemption comes with the moral weight of deciding what’s good and what’s bad, and it also reduces the character to a prop for another story.
for a year now, i’ve been interested in recovery narrative.
recovery is a mental health model. you can read all about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recov...
the central idea is that it empowers patients to be in charge of themselves. especially in mental health, there’s ‘traditionally’ been an emphasis on institutionalisation. establishing autonomy for someone suffering from mental health problems is key to helping them create meaning for themselves. meaning is something pretty sacred to me to begin with and ‘making meaning’ rather than having meaning given to you makes a huge and palpable difference to me.
recovery assumes that there can be participation again in whatever kind of community there is.
it’s about the person, rather than their function and usefulness to others.
of course, you can now ask yourself what’s that got to do with star wars and how?? and you’d be right. i have only got an inkling of an idea and a pretty strong desire to see something that is well-executed and that accounts for kylo ren’s background and the murky morality of what the galaxy far far away is about or is implied to be about.
what i think about a lot is how the narrative is an aid to learning abot the world, how it can engage your own sense of identity and how the audience can participate in the story and see themselves. tragedy is a way to invite pity and fear and to challenge the audience’s empathy.
because we are dealing with the son of han and leia, the idea of him carrying on living and being able to integrate his disparate parts into a whole, is utterly appealing not just from a mental health perspective, and let’s face it, metaphorically this is all about metal health.
there also aren’t, in any way i can think of, model narratives of what mental health recovery is. (the ohtze essay, if nothing else, proves the ubiquity of reemption stories, on the other hand.) the potential in star wars is that the story can liberally be invested with all the metaphorical imagery you can shake a stick at. fantasy telling larger than life stories and being able to invest the narrative with more universal themes than a more realist approach would be (and there’s nothing wrong with realist approaches) .  
i think recovery has the greater potential to enrich the saga beyond a simplistic model of right and wrong, bad and good, and star wars is so ready for that.
@guardienne

I am a little dim at the moment because I am still recovering from oral surgery and my sleep is messed up as a result, lol, so I'm not able to add much or to be that articulate at the moment ... but I absolutely love the recovery model for Kylo and always have.  I really, really hope they pursue that path.  It would honor the character and would bring the franchise to a whole new level.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Saracene on Thu 12 Jan - 10:07

@guardienne wrote:there’s been a lot of effort made especially from the side of adam driver, to establish that neither dark side nor light side are that different, that their perception of themselves is basically the same. that kylo ren isn’t a villain.
@guardienne

Their perceptions of themselves may be basically the same, but the movies clearly don't want the viewers to perceive them the same. I think your idea is interesting, but I don't quite see it working in what's essentially a very black-and-white universe with a very clear divide between the good side and the bad side.

Even R1, which made some attempt at murkier morality, can't really get away from that simplistic view; yes the good guys can be flawed but they're still, unquestionably, the Good Side and the Empire is still without a shade of doubt the Bad Guy.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by guardienne on Thu 12 Jan - 11:36

@saracene

i agree that the movie so far has portrayed them not as equal sides. i think that TFA was an attempt to say, we are doing star wars, look, it's all star wars, so they can deviate from it.

but i might be wrong.

i think redemption isn't a very interesting idea to be honest, it's been done. and i understand a lot of people are hungry for these stories, but i'm hungry for another. and i think it would be a more exciting thing to be happening for the reasons i've mentioned.

there is no real going back for kylo. he cannot revert to the person ben was. it's dishonest to me to write that and it'd be vastly exciting for me if he was able to claim his own story and own up to it. that said, it doesn't mean there won't be any sacrifice in his story etc. i don't think redemption and recovery are mutually exclusive.

@solosidecousin

get well soon Cheek kiss
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by panki on Thu 12 Jan - 11:59

I find it really funny when people get over-protective of Rey....if we're getting technical, the only person who hasn't killed people in canon before TFA is Finn....and even he had anger issues, spending long hours in the firing range training academy, just randomly shooting to get rid of pent up rage (am sure this will play some part in episode 8 ).

Rey has killed those who tried to trespass into her home on Jakku which means she didn't kill from afar- she killed in hand to hand combat....she has beaten up Unkar's thugs in the past and she did it again during TFA.....and these are hardened criminals as we find out from the short stories in the SW Aliens book, not small time petty thieves. She even rigged her vehicle to electrocute people who tried to steal her vehicle. This is no shy desert rose...she is a tough character, very capable of looking after herself.

Kylo's fighting style seems to show he is more comfortable fighting training droids instead of real life combatants (I could always be wrong about this)....and if he lacks real world experience, I think he has enough reason to be scared of Rey instead of vice versa, especially as she continues to learn force abilities....I don't blame him for telling the other FO people to find her as she grows more dangerous with time.


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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Maria Antonietta on Thu 12 Jan - 12:07

@guardienne wrote:@saracene

i agree that the movie so far has portrayed them not as equal sides. i think that TFA was an attempt to say, we are doing star wars, look, it's all star wars, so they can deviate from it.

but i might be wrong.

i think redemption isn't a very interesting idea to be honest, it's been done. and i understand a lot of people are hungry for these stories, but i'm hungry for another. and i think it would be a more exciting thing to be happening for the reasons i've mentioned.

there is no real going back for kylo. he cannot revert to the person ben was. it's dishonest to me to write that and it'd be vastly exciting for me if he was able to claim his own story and own up to it. that said, it doesn't mean there won't be any sacrifice in his story etc. i don't think redemption and recovery are mutually exclusive.

@solosidecousin

get well soon Cheek kiss  
@guardienne

What if redemption is a plot device for a greater cause? If we are right, thinking that we'll see a scandalous love story between Rey and Ren, it'll be the first love story (in the context of the saga) between two Jedi. If they are really going that way, it'll be a sort of redemption for the prequels Jedi, who were full of themselves and weren't able to feel the fall of their council and the Republic. I wish I was English to better articulate my thoughts
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Saracene on Thu 12 Jan - 12:17

@panki None of that people-killing stuff is in the movie though. They clearly wanted to make Rey as loveable as possible, so all the harder edges got sawn off.

@guardienne I think that, once you've drawn clear parallels between your bad guys and the Nazis, there's no going back and trying to portray it as somehow equal with the good side. Nazis are like at the bottom of the Evil Well.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Maria Antonietta on Thu 12 Jan - 12:28

@Saracene wrote:@panki None of that people-killing stuff is in the movie though. They clearly wanted to make Rey as loveable as possible, so all the harder edges got sawn off.

@guardienne I think that, once you've drawn clear parallels between your bad guys and the Nazis, there's no going back and trying to portray it as somehow equal with the good side. Nazis are like at the bottom of the Evil Well.
@Saracene

He doesn't seem to enjoy what the first order does. The Knights of Ren could be a satellite organization
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by panki on Thu 12 Jan - 13:10

@Saracene wrote:@panki None of that people-killing stuff is in the movie though. They clearly wanted to make Rey as loveable as possible, so all the harder edges got sawn off.
@Maria Antonietta

The did remove the people killing part but they definitely retained her gritty and violent side, with her beating up Unkar's thugs, thrashing Finn when they first met, shooting FO stormies who had their backs turned to her, slashing Kylo's face with the lightsaber and almost killing him.....definitely not the traits of a cinnamon roll.

I think the problem is that people are willing to overlook all this because she has a pretty face with soft features.

@Maria Antonietta wrote:
He doesn't seem to enjoy what the first order does. The Knights of Ren could be a satellite organization
@Maria Antonietta

One of the FO agents describes Kylo as a freak....maybe Kylo and the KOR work independent of the FO, and the FO officers are vary of their group- not unlike the imperial's fear of Vader and the sith.



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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by guardienne on Thu 12 Jan - 13:41

@saracene i don't think rey is as lovable as you make it out, she is pretty fierce and ready to fight at all times.

but anyway, i take your point wrt space nazis.
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