Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Maria Antonietta on Thu 22 Sep - 18:11

SanghaRen wrote:Am I a bad person if I still would see Kylo as redeemable had he killed Leia? Maybe not the Leia we met in TFA because she seemed to be still rooting for him while Han sort of gave up, but to me matricide is not worse than patricide. There are as many bad mothers as there are bad fathers imo. And I am NOT saying that Han and Leia were bad parents, ok? Just saying that for me patricide and matricide are one and the same. Maybe because I am a woman and childless so I don't idolize mothers that much.

I think a lot of men actually have a hard time with the patricide part, which is interesting because I know quite a few who have issues with their father but still see him as a figure of authority not to be touched.
@SanghaRen

I think it's a little bit different, the relationship between mothers and sons is a lot stronger than fathers/sons. Just using my mother as example, my brothers: mom, we want lasagne! My mom cooks lasagne asap. Me: mom, can I cook pasta with lentils? NO, IT'S NOT TIME TO COOK LENTILS, NOPE, NO. At least Italian moms are like that Very Happy
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by jakkusun on Thu 22 Sep - 22:07

SanghaRen wrote:Am I a bad person if I still would see Kylo as redeemable had he killed Leia? Maybe not the Leia we met in TFA because she seemed to be still rooting for him while Han sort of gave up, but to me matricide is not worse than patricide. There are as many bad mothers as there are bad fathers imo. And I am NOT saying that Han and Leia were bad parents, ok? Just saying that for me patricide and matricide are one and the same. Maybe because I am a woman and childless so I don't idolize mothers that much.

I think a lot of men actually have a hard time with the patricide part, which is interesting because I know quite a few who have issues with their father but still see him as a figure of authority not to be touched.
@SanghaRen
Oh I thought no one else felt that way! That matricide and patricide can be equal crimes. I don't really look at things as too different whether it is father/son mother/son mother/daughter father/daughter. I personally just look at it as parent/child. Maybe it's just more relatable to me that way. (The difficult relationship Kylo has with Han reminds me of my relationship with my mother, so it all feels the same to me I guess)

And I think it makes sense for him to kill the parent he had an especially difficult connection with. "He was weak and foolish like his father" shows a bit of why killing Han was important to him and Snoke, I think. Had a similar relationship and dynamic been set up with Leia and Kylo, I think it could be the same kind of story. It just wasn't set up that way, like you said. If he killed Leia without any context or build-up like with Han, though, I think it would be worse because it would be even more cold-blooded and senseless.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Geralt_Riv on Fri 23 Sep - 10:28


I just found this. Great video!
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Saracene on Fri 23 Sep - 10:49

SanghaRen wrote:Am I a bad person if I still would see Kylo as redeemable had he killed Leia? Maybe not the Leia we met in TFA because she seemed to be still rooting for him while Han sort of gave up, but to me matricide is not worse than patricide. There are as many bad mothers as there are bad fathers imo. And I am NOT saying that Han and Leia were bad parents, ok? Just saying that for me patricide and matricide are one and the same. Maybe because I am a woman and childless so I don't idolize mothers that much.

I think a lot of men actually have a hard time with the patricide part, which is interesting because I know quite a few who have issues with their father but still see him as a figure of authority not to be touched.
@SanghaRen

I'm sure that different people will have different feelings on the matter. I just think that, in very broad terms, motherhood is venerated in a way that fatherhood is not. Maybe because a) it's a woman who bears the child and gives birth, and b) it's still women who are seen as primary carers of children. So, killing a person who gave birth to you and took care of you might be seen as extra-heinous (again, I'm talking about a very broad, idealised notion - there are plenty of women who are in fact horrible mothers).
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by panki on Mon 14 Nov - 13:28

I don't know if anyone else has read the Dark Empire series where Luke becomes the apprentice of Palpatine's clone and we think he has turned evil but he actually ends up destroying all Palpatine's clone bodies. I wonder if this particular image in the comic inspired Kylo's look and could this be a hint that Kylo's personal interests might not be as dark and evil as people imagine?




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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by SanghaRen on Mon 14 Nov - 21:34

panki wrote:I don't know if anyone else has read the Dark Empire series where Luke becomes the apprentice of Palpatine's clone and we think he has turned evil but he actually ends up destroying all Palpatine's clone bodies. I wonder if this particular image in the comic inspired Kylo's look and could this be a hint that Kylo's personal interests might not be as dark and evil as people imagine?



@panki

I don't know why but when I first saw the image from the comic, I thought it was Heath Ledger's Joker. Weird.

Well, if they did get inspired by the comic, I don't think they will admit it. It does have similarities.

My real issue with Kylo having good motives is the Han killing scene. I think I said that before so I might be repeating myself - age does that to people Smile It does not fit with Kylo having good intentions. I could go for him killing his own father to save the galaxy. That's not the issue. My issue is the "thank you" in this scene. It's not a "I am sorry, Dad, thank you for your sacrifice." No. He hisses this thank you through his teeth. I personally froze when he said that. All the grudge he's holding against his father is released at this point. I think JJ in his comments describes it as "these 2 terrible words." Then he realizes what he has done and is horrified before getting shot by Chewie.

It could be that he started with good intentions and got corrupted along the way, but the grudge is there and Snoke seemed to have built on it. There could be some good intention in the mix, but I personally cannot see a full double agent story - but that's maybe not what you mean neither.  That thank you would be even worse. The double agent uses his mission to get even with Daddy. Ouch. And I cannot imagine that they let AD play it this way to then say "look, he's sorry in the scene." I don't see any goodness in those seconds. Just someone who can finally act on his grudge and does something irreparable before regretting it deeply. But it's done and he'll have to live with it.

Is this comic canon or legend material?
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by nonesuch on Mon 14 Nov - 22:19

I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but I have noticed something very interesting in the Galactic Atlas, which is a new, Story Group-approved book. In preview pages that Jedi-Bibliothek had a few months ago, this was the description below Kylo's character entry:

“His Jedi training with Luke Skywalker ended in tragedy when, seduced by the dark side, he and his Knights of Ren slew his fellow students.”

Now, in the final published version that I have with me, it has changed. It now says this:

“His Jedi training with Luke Skywalker ended in tragedy when, seduced by the dark side, he betrayed the other students and was responsible for their destruction.”

That indicates some serious note-passing, as far as I'm concerned, and is another strong piece of evidence suggesting that what happened at Luke's not-academy might not have been a slaughter, but not another kind of destruction entirely. The final version has no reference to murdering students or the KoR, as the early version did.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Darth_Awakened on Mon 14 Nov - 22:34

nonesuch wrote:I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but I have noticed something very interesting in the Galactic Atlas, which is a new, Story Group-approved book. In preview pages that Jedi-Bibliothek had a few months ago, this was the description below Kylo's character entry:

“His Jedi training with Luke Skywalker ended in tragedy when, seduced by the dark side, he and his Knights of Ren slew his fellow students.”

Now, in the final published version that I have with me, it has changed. It now says this:

“His Jedi training with Luke Skywalker ended in tragedy when, seduced by the dark side, he betrayed the other students and was responsible for their destruction.”

That indicates some serious note-passing, as far as I'm concerned, and is another strong piece of evidence suggesting that what happened at Luke's not-academy might not have been a slaughter, but not another kind of destruction entirely. The final version has no reference to murdering students or the KoR, as the early version did.
@nonesuch

It's definitely very interesting change. Fits nicely with the rumour provided by MSW that we are probably going to witness some kind of vision or flash-back sequence of the tragic events with the Luke's students.
I would not be surprised if the whole thing unfolds in a way that nobody expect.
I really do not think that the flash back would be necessary if the "massacre" or whatever happened exactly like most people thought it did.
It was pretty much straight forward in TFA according to Han's story.

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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by panki on Mon 14 Nov - 22:35

@SanghaRen

Well, I am not exactly saying it has to be a "double agent" situation and I don't think Kylo is working for the resistance etc...but I feel he has his own rogue agenda, something he feels is needed to help the galaxy...for the greater good. the one that Hux was alluding to when he said- Careful Ren.

I am going into the new canon comics for a better understanding of this behavior in the Skywalker family to explain this:

1. We see Leia exhibit exactly the same behavior in the canon Star Wars comics- once when she was ready to let Luke and everyone else including herself get blown up if it meant killing Vader...and on the second occasion, she didn't do a thing to save Han's life when he was almost shot by the Imperials while on a secret mission for her.

2. We see Anakin kill the jedi younglings in cold blood with tears in his eyes because it meant that Palpatine might save Padme. We see him give Obi-wan a crazy sith eyed explanation on Mustafar that the jedi are wrong from his perspective.

So we can see this zeal in that family to complete missions no matter what the cost.

Now let us examine Kylo's behavior:

a. He acts like a dead person...has few material needs according to the novel....wears a tracking device which means Snoke doesn't trust him.....all these don't point to someone who has easy access to Snoke. Also, Snoke had alluded to a test...and we know what the test turned out to be.

b. He sent the stormtroopers in a different direction while searching for Han.

c. He walked away from Han and onto the walkway. We have to remember that he sensed Han as the MF approached SKB....so it wasn't that he didn't know Han's location... the guy was deliberately trying to avoid Han so he can avoid Snoke's test.

d. When Han called out his name, he literally flinched. Also, all those stormtroopers that he sent in a wrong direction heard Han and trained their guns onto the walkway.....what is Kylo supposed to do? His mission is jeopardized.

e. Now coming to the "Thank you"....I don't think Kylo was cheerfully or coldly saying the thank you....his jaw was literally shaking (and if you look at the image slowly just before he says thank you, I think it looks like he is mouthing the word 'sorry')....I think Han knew that one way or another he was going to die....whether by Kylo's hand or the FO.....Kylo still has a chance to complete whatever crazy mission he is on...and yes, I think Kylo is the one who killed Han but Han gave his life willingly for his son....and he even touched his face with love before he died. Also, this act has gained Snoke's trust and he has asked for Kylo to be brought to him.

Do I agree with what Kylo did? NO
Do I think Kylo is a bit crazy for whatever reason? Definitely
Will he feel guilty for the rest of his life? Without Doubt.
But I think the thank you was because Han has given him a chance to continue and finish whatever he feels he needs to finish....not because of some heartless FO fanboy zeal.

Dark Empire is legends....but don't be too surprised if a version of this comes into canon.....they've just announced a new Maul comic series with a storyline that is similar to a legends comic with a similar name....and the Poe comics are a re-telling of the X-wing comic series in legends.

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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by panki on Mon 14 Nov - 22:48

Darth_Awakened wrote:
nonesuch wrote:I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but I have noticed something very interesting in the Galactic Atlas, which is a new, Story Group-approved book. In preview pages that Jedi-Bibliothek had a few months ago, this was the description below Kylo's character entry:

“His Jedi training with Luke Skywalker ended in tragedy when, seduced by the dark side, he and his Knights of Ren slew his fellow students.”

Now, in the final published version that I have with me, it has changed. It now says this:

“His Jedi training with Luke Skywalker ended in tragedy when, seduced by the dark side, he betrayed the other students and was responsible for their destruction.”

That indicates some serious note-passing, as far as I'm concerned, and is another strong piece of evidence suggesting that what happened at Luke's not-academy might not have been a slaughter, but not another kind of destruction entirely. The final version has no reference to murdering students or the KoR, as the early version did.
@nonesuch

It's definitely very interesting change. Fits nicely with the rumour provided by MSW that we are probably going to witness some kind of vision or flash-back sequence of the tragic events with the Luke's students.
I would not be surprised if the whole thing unfolds in a way that nobody expect.
I really do not think that the flash back would be necessary if the "massacre" or whatever happened exactly like most people thought it did.
It was pretty much straight forward in TFA according to Han's story.
@Darth_Awakened

If we read the Atlas with the canon RPG, maybe we can make sense of what happened...I've posted this extract before but it might be interesting to read both entries together:

After the defeat of the Emperor and the redemption of Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker thought it was his destiny to rebuild the Jedi Order. He set out to train a new generation of jedi knights. However, in an eerie parody of the past, one student would prove to be his undoing.

Han and Leia had a child, Ben, who was strong in the Force. They asked Luke to train him as a Jedi. Unbeknownst to them, however, the mysterious Supreme Leader Snoke had other designs for the boy. Snoke turned Ben to the dark side of the Force. His fall was terrible, as were the consequences for Luke and his other students. Though the details remain unclear, one thing is known. Ben is no more. Now, he is Kylo Ren.

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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by SanghaRen on Mon 14 Nov - 23:43

@panki

Time will tell. I agree that Kylo seems to have an agenda of his own and Snoke knows it. Where I tend to disagree is that I believe he has an allegiance to Snoke. He knows he's wrong but he's still mostly following Snoke's lead.

I don't see the sorry in his face when he kills Han or says thank you. I see the despair before. I see the shock after. Not during the killing. I can imagine them going this way though because it softens the pill to redemption. 

I'll be honest, I'll have to go with it, but it would ruin the scene for me because I see this as Kylo's darkest moment and Han's ultimate sacrifice. And it would make the grudge talks unecessary because either he has a grudge against his dad and it helped pave his way to the dark side or he's got a holy mission and Han was a necessary sacrifice. It just seems to me a lot to have it all in one package. Unless the whole grudge thing is a cover-up and the story is not about Kylo's redemption but about Kylo's self-sacrifice for a greater cause. Not exactly the story they sold with references to terrorism and I am not sure it's the story I'd like to see. But that's my problem.

I don't see Kylo as heartless. 10 seconds of evil thoughts that unfortunately take a dramatic turn does not make anyone heartless. It makes him human. I think pure evil is rare. I believe in the unfortunate combination of environment, personnality and feelings leading to bad things happening. We all have our evil buttons that ones pressed can lead to ugly things. In the SW environment, I believe that the Force is doing a lot of sith to keep balance. And unfortunately for them and fortunately for us, the Skywalkers seem to be the Force's favorite tools - pun intended Very Happy
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by SanghaRen on Mon 14 Nov - 23:53

I am confused with these books. I searched for the Atlas in Amazon and it gives me 2 books that look the same, but different prices and one is already out while the other comes out only on December 20th. WTH! I had the same issue with Bloodline in iBook.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by Macha Ren on Tue 15 Nov - 16:15

nonesuch wrote:I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but I have noticed something very interesting in the Galactic Atlas, which is a new, Story Group-approved book. In preview pages that Jedi-Bibliothek had a few months ago, this was the description below Kylo's character entry:

“His Jedi training with Luke Skywalker ended in tragedy when, seduced by the dark side, he and his Knights of Ren slew his fellow students.”

Now, in the final published version that I have with me, it has changed. It now says this:

“His Jedi training with Luke Skywalker ended in tragedy when, seduced by the dark side, he betrayed the other students and was responsible for their destruction.”

That indicates some serious note-passing, as far as I'm concerned, and is another strong piece of evidence suggesting that what happened at Luke's not-academy might not have been a slaughter, but not another kind of destruction entirely. The final version has no reference to murdering students or the KoR, as the early version did.

@nonesuch



You very well may be on to something. I suspect that is exactly what is in play here. It's a bait and switch that is very intentional.  Star Wars has played the Certain Point of View since day one, and this very well be a long con to be revealed later. What if several points of view were manipulated by Snoke to get Ben Solo to fall?
 
Assumptions (choice of words intentional):
 
1. Ben Solo's fall culminated in kill all the other Jedi Learners.
 
Han said in TFA, "One boy destroyed it all." As @nonesuch pointed out, the official text has changed from "kill" to "destroy." The lines have blurred a bit in that past narrative and what exactly happened is no long parsed out in absolutes.
 
2. Adam Driver is likely one of the few cast memebers who knows Kylo's real back story. Perhaps it's his opinion or he let something slip before the spoiler shock collar deployed that Kylo's actions are rooted in a deep sense of abandonment.
 
At this point I think I'm going to take Adam at face value. This has been interpreted by some to be Ben Solo was a spoiled brat that never appreciated the good he had growing up the child of heroes. But what if that sense of abandonment did not arise until much later in his story (i.e. as he became Kylo Ren and not as a younger adolescent as assumed?
 
3. Snoke has been manipulating Ben since whenever.
 
Big question is when did that manipulation kick it up to eleven?
 
So here's a theory:
 
What if that sense of abandonment occurred AFTER the destruction of the Jedi school, that Ben Solo was a target during that massacre/attack and only an indirect instrument in it, and it was those students from within Luke's own camp that played a bigger role I. It's destruction?
 
Big leap there, I know. It's not to whitewash Kylo's sins, so bear with me.
 
If we look at that attack where Ben, as the only Skywalker heir, was a prize to be taken, Snoke controlled the narrative to the outside world because there appeared to be no survivors, and the only person that live to tell (Luke) was now in exile, a certain point of view could be twisted into whatever he wanted.
 
Now just say you have this captive 23 year old Ben who already has had Snoke in his head forever and has a predisposed proclivity for the Darkside and is cut off from the outside world. Snoke controls what he knows and hears.
 
Meanwhile you have his parents desperate to find out if their son has survived the attack because his remains were not recovered. They are searching everywhere for their son hoping he did not die, but Ben never knew this. Now let's just say on one end word gets out (via Snoke) that Ben Solo was responsible for the massacre and that he has given himself to the Darkside. There is no way to verify this, but ultimately those searching for answers accept it as truth. Han and Leia would be devastated and angry, and all active searching for Ben would cease.
 
On the other side of this, what if you had Snoke manipulating what Ben knows? What if distorted the news that his parents never searched for him in the first place, that they never had those sleepless nights praying he was still alive? What if Snoke's true manipulation began at THIS point to make Ben believe his parents had abandoned him? There would be no way to verify it. And what if this is where that crushing sense of abandonment stems from because his only connection to the outside world (Snoke) has convinced him that his family has thrown him away like garbage?
 
Now you have this not so balanced to start with Skywalker heir who would be very vulnerable to manipulation if Snoke has just broken him emotionally. That's where the real grooming and honing of the Darkside begins where Snoke fills the void of his family with himself. I won't turn my back on you. I will make you strong.
 
For those who watch/read the Walking Dead, this is how Negan groomed his Saviors to become drones for him--strip away everything that means anything and break his subjects then offer comfort and praise for absolute fealt. But that comes a a price. You do EVERYTHING your master wishes of you or back in the hole you go. So in the name of self-preservation you are conditioned to accept and perform very heinous acts because absolute obedience has been ingrained into the very fabric of who you are.


When looking at absolute extremes, offering your life in servitude is ultimately a less painful prospect even if the cost is your own agency. Snoke would have unfettered access to home the Darkside and create a monster that functions within in that construct. Yes, he makes bad decisions and is a monster, because that is the only choice, therefore it becomes normalized in his own mind.


And maybe that is how Kylo Ren came to be--complete control over someone where it appears they have agency, but that sense of self is destroyed in the name of self-preservation. Perhaps that is one reason Kylo briefly faltered when his father said he wanted to take him home and that they still missed him. It went against everything he had heard since the night of the Jedi attack. 
 
Not saying this is going to happen, but something like this may tie all of the loose ends together.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 15 Nov - 16:17

Starchaser wrote:I don't know if this is the right topic for this post, sorry if it belongs somewhere else, but it does involve Ren's redemption so I hope it's alright.  

First, I have to say that Kylo Ren is 100% redeemable. Redemption is personal, it doesn't require forgiveness. Ren could kill Han, Leia, Luke, Rey and half the galaxy, it wouldn't matter as long as he'd be willing to change his ways AND do something that makes up for his wrongdoings. If he kills half the galaxy (worst case scenario), he'll have to do something that massively improves the lives of the rest of the galaxy and creates a safer, happier future for everyone. But he would be redeemed nonetheless, regardless of what anyone thinks of him. I believe that what most fans mean by "redemption" is actually "forgiveness", which is entirely different. That, he might not win from everyone after killing Han. But it doesn't matter anyway, does it? One person's worth is not dependent on another person's feelings for them, and Ren won't drop dead because Chewbacca can't forgive him.

The real question is...Would he be willing to change his ways? I believe he already did, although only partially for the time being. I'll explain how I see this character and what I think happened to him in TFA. I might be wrong, I'm being very subjective because I only look at the story from his point of view. But I might be onto something so please bear with me.  

I don't know why Ren joined Snoke, what made him fall (although not fully) to the dark side. Something must have happened when he was 23, something brutal. But I assume he stayed because he believed that the dark side is stronger, that it would make HIM stronger. He knew it wasn't necessarily the best choice, but it was what he needed, and he was willing to sacrifice everything, including who he really is, for it.

But he couldn't do it because, simply he's too strong with the light. I believe he's meant to live with both the dark side and the light, and we can see them both in action when Ren meets Rey. He's attracted to her light because it reflects the light in him, but he chooses her instead of the droid completely on impulse. That was the dark side, working in perfect harmony with the light. And from this point on, he starts coming back to himself, slowly accepting more and more light without even noticing it.

I believe that what happened on the bridge was his last attempt at staying on the dark side and, in his mind, keeping his power. But it doesn't work, he still feels weak, and at this point, he's completely lost. There's nothing to do and nowhere to go, so he goes after Rey.

And their interactions when they meet in the forest reveal a lot about Ren's mental and emotional state. They reveal a lot about Rey too, but that's a different topic. The first thing that Ren says after Rey calls him a monster is "Han Solo can't save you". Which means that he finally understands that he's the villain in the story, that Rey needs saving from him. He managed to fool himself up until this point, but now he knows how wrong he was, how Snoke lied to him, and that Rey is right to call him a monster. He finally GETS IT.

But because he's selfish and his mind is half gone, he wants to keep Rey with him anyway. Misery needs company and he needs something to grab on to, even if that "something" despises him. Rey is the only thing he hasn't lost at this point, and probably the only thing that keeps him going.

Then he fights and tortures Finn, probably because he needs to hurt someone and there's only so much he can hurt himself. He's jealous too, he's petty like that, but it's mostly anger relief.

Then Rey grabs the lightsaber and Ren experience the best moment of his entire existence. Despair turns into hope and everything makes sense again. It truly is a beautiful thing. Here is what I believe happened.

Many think that the look on Ren's face means that he just fell in love. I don't think that's the case, he's in the worst emotional state before this moment, love is the last thing on his mind. If there IS love, it's secondary, a result of what really happened.

I believe that when Rey grabbed the lightsaber, she effectively set Ren free. He discovered someone who is just as strong as him despite having no training, no legacy, no allegiance. Just a scavenger who uses the force as it is, tapping into raw power without wondering if it's light or dark, right or wrong. Which means that his own legacy, his allegiance to the dark side and everything he did to become powerful mean absolutely nothing. He realizes that power can come from anywhere. In other words, that he's good enough as he is. He knows he doesn't have to follow Vader or anyone else, that Snoke lied to him, that he doesn't have to fight to stay in the dark. He looks at Rey, sees that she's amazing as she is, and knows that he's the same. So he lets the light in. This is why he offers to teach Rey the ways of the force instead of the dark side. He understood that balance is the key.

Of course, this doesn't means that he's no longer a selfish brat (and I say that from a loving place lol). He'll have to learn real compassion and kindness. But his journey back to the light side is pretty much done. He found peace. He'll never be fully light, simply because he doesn't have the right personality for that. But he'll learn to balance the dark and light for both his and others' benefit.

With Ren, it was never about choosing the right side, it was about accepting himself, dark and light in equal measure. But there was never a place for people like him. It's safe to assume that he was never an angel, so he didn't feel like he belonged with the Jedi. But he's not Satan either, so joining the dark side only made him feel worse. And now he discovered someone who is just like him and is doing fine, at least for the time being. He knows where he belongs. His personality is still almost unbearable (I love him but hey...), but he'll be fine in time.

By the way, Rey being abducted and interrogated by Ren was the best thing that happened to her. He enters her mind against her will, exposes all her fears, and by doing so, he sets HER free. She built herself a cage out of her own misery, hiding herself and keeping everything out. Ren broke it all down and brought everything that terrified her out in the open. And with nothing to lose, with this weak, scared persona gone, Rey discovered what was really hidden inside her, who she really was. They've effectively managed to save each other's lives completely on accident. I guess it's the will of the force...:-)

But I might be wrong.
@Starchaser

This. Wink
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 15 Nov - 16:57

SanghaRen wrote:@panki

Time will tell. I agree that Kylo seems to have an agenda of his own and Snoke knows it. Where I tend to disagree is that I believe he has an allegiance to Snoke. He knows he's wrong but he's still mostly following Snoke's lead.

I don't see the sorry in his face when he kills Han or says thank you. I see the despair before. I see the shock after. Not during the killing. I can imagine them going this way though because it softens the pill to redemption. 

I'll be honest, I'll have to go with it, but it would ruin the scene for me because I see this as Kylo's darkest moment and Han's ultimate sacrifice. And it would make the grudge talks unecessary because either he has a grudge against his dad and it helped pave his way to the dark side or he's got a holy mission and Han was a necessary sacrifice. It just seems to me a lot to have it all in one package. Unless the whole grudge thing is a cover-up and the story is not about Kylo's redemption but about Kylo's self-sacrifice for a greater cause. Not exactly the story they sold with references to terrorism and I am not sure it's the story I'd like to see. But that's my problem.

I don't see Kylo as heartless. 10 seconds of evil thoughts that unfortunately take a dramatic turn does not make anyone heartless. It makes him human. I think pure evil is rare. I believe in the unfortunate combination of environment, personnality and feelings leading to bad things happening. We all have our evil buttons that ones pressed can lead to ugly things. In the SW environment, I believe that the Force is doing a lot of sith to keep balance. And unfortunately for them and fortunately for us, the Skywalkers seem to be the Force's favorite tools - pun intended Very Happy
@SanghaRen

Interesting you say that,because I don't see anyone in the First Order as 'pure evil'.
Except one.

Kylo is most definitely the 'greyest' of them; he is terribly conflicted, and I suspect some of the worst things he's done are a desperate attempt to destroy his conscience. An attempt that keeps failing.
The stormtroopers are victims, like Finn. We have no idea of Phasma's history but it may be something similar.
Hux is the worst of them,but he started out as an unwanted kid who wanted desperately to 'be' somebody, and I couldn't help but think observing his interaction with Kylo, that he seemed jealous of his relationship with Snoke. I doubt very much if Hux is redeemable the way Kylo is but then again...Darth Vader.
I'm repeating myself but Snoke is the true 'evil' here. He organised the abduction and brainwashing of innocent children. He took advantage of Han and Leia's lonely son and psychologically abused and controlled him. And he used an unwanted son's bitterness as a weapon to forge him into a genocidal maniac.
Snoke is the true 'evil', the Voldemort of the saga,and I can't wait to see his soul sent howling into the abyss!
If he has a soul....
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 15 Nov - 17:01

SanghaRen wrote:
panki wrote:I don't know if anyone else has read the Dark Empire series where Luke becomes the apprentice of Palpatine's clone and we think he has turned evil but he actually ends up destroying all Palpatine's clone bodies. I wonder if this particular image in the comic inspired Kylo's look and could this be a hint that Kylo's personal interests might not be as dark and evil as people imagine?



@panki

I don't know why but when I first saw the image from the comic, I thought it was Heath Ledger's Joker. Weird.

Well, if they did get inspired by the comic, I don't think they will admit it. It does have similarities.

My real issue with Kylo having good motives is the Han killing scene. I think I said that before so I might be repeating myself - age does that to people Smile It does not fit with Kylo having good intentions. I could go for him killing his own father to save the galaxy. That's not the issue. My issue is the "thank you" in this scene. It's not a "I am sorry, Dad, thank you for your sacrifice." No. He hisses this thank you through his teeth. I personally froze when he said that. All the grudge he's holding against his father is released at this point. I think JJ in his comments describes it as "these 2 terrible words." Then he realizes what he has done and is horrified before getting shot by Chewie.

It could be that he started with good intentions and got corrupted along the way, but the grudge is there and Snoke seemed to have built on it. There could be some good intention in the mix, but I personally cannot see a full double agent story - but that's maybe not what you mean neither.  That thank you would be even worse. The double agent uses his mission to get even with Daddy. Ouch. And I cannot imagine that they let AD play it this way to then say "look, he's sorry in the scene." I don't see any goodness in those seconds. Just someone who can finally act on his grudge and does something irreparable before regretting it deeply. But it's done and he'll have to live with it.

Is this comic canon or legend material?
@SanghaRen

I don't think he's a double agent either, in fact it would be the 'easy' way out.

What sticks in my mind is the line in the junior novel when Han hopes his son will 'forgive him'.

What for?
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 15 Nov - 20:03

Macha Ren wrote:
nonesuch wrote:I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but I have noticed something very interesting in the Galactic Atlas, which is a new, Story Group-approved book. In preview pages that Jedi-Bibliothek had a few months ago, this was the description below Kylo's character entry:

“His Jedi training with Luke Skywalker ended in tragedy when, seduced by the dark side, he and his Knights of Ren slew his fellow students.”

Now, in the final published version that I have with me, it has changed. It now says this:

“His Jedi training with Luke Skywalker ended in tragedy when, seduced by the dark side, he betrayed the other students and was responsible for their destruction.”

That indicates some serious note-passing, as far as I'm concerned, and is another strong piece of evidence suggesting that what happened at Luke's not-academy might not have been a slaughter, but not another kind of destruction entirely. The final version has no reference to murdering students or the KoR, as the early version did.

@nonesuch



You very well may be on to something. I suspect that is exactly what is in play here. It's a bait and switch that is very intentional.  Star Wars has played the Certain Point of View since day one, and this very well be a long con to be revealed later. What if several points of view were manipulated by Snoke to get Ben Solo to fall?
 
Assumptions (choice of words intentional):
 
1. Ben Solo's fall culminated in kill all the other Jedi Learners.
 
Han said in TFA, "One boy destroyed it all." As @nonesuch pointed out, the official text has changed from "kill" to "destroy." The lines have blurred a bit in that past narrative and what exactly happened is no long parsed out in absolutes.
 
2. Adam Driver is likely one of the few cast memebers who knows Kylo's real back story. Perhaps it's his opinion or he let something slip before the spoiler shock collar deployed that Kylo's actions are rooted in a deep sense of abandonment.
 
At this point I think I'm going to take Adam at face value. This has been interpreted by some to be Ben Solo was a spoiled brat that never appreciated the good he had growing up the child of heroes. But what if that sense of abandonment did not arise until much later in his story (i.e. as he became Kylo Ren and not as a younger adolescent as assumed?
 
3. Snoke has been manipulating Ben since whenever.
 
Big question is when did that manipulation kick it up to eleven?
 
So here's a theory:
 
What if that sense of abandonment occurred AFTER the destruction of the Jedi school, that Ben Solo was a target during that massacre/attack and only an indirect instrument in it, and it was those students from within Luke's own camp that played a bigger role I. It's destruction?
 
Big leap there, I know. It's not to whitewash Kylo's sins, so bear with me.
 
If we look at that attack where Ben, as the only Skywalker heir, was a prize to be taken, Snoke controlled the narrative to the outside world because there appeared to be no survivors, and the only person that live to tell (Luke) was now in exile, a certain point of view could be twisted into whatever he wanted.
 
Now just say you have this captive 23 year old Ben who already has had Snoke in his head forever and has a predisposed proclivity for the Darkside and is cut off from the outside world. Snoke controls what he knows and hears.
 
Meanwhile you have his parents desperate to find out if their son has survived the attack because his remains were not recovered. They are searching everywhere for their son hoping he did not die, but Ben never knew this. Now let's just say on one end word gets out (via Snoke) that Ben Solo was responsible for the massacre and that he has given himself to the Darkside. There is no way to verify this, but ultimately those searching for answers accept it as truth. Han and Leia would be devastated and angry, and all active searching for Ben would cease.
 
On the other side of this, what if you had Snoke manipulating what Ben knows? What if distorted the news that his parents never searched for him in the first place, that they never had those sleepless nights praying he was still alive? What if Snoke's true manipulation began at THIS point to make Ben believe his parents had abandoned him? There would be no way to verify it. And what if this is where that crushing sense of abandonment stems from because his only connection to the outside world (Snoke) has convinced him that his family has thrown him away like garbage?
 
Now you have this not so balanced to start with Skywalker heir who would be very vulnerable to manipulation if Snoke has just broken him emotionally. That's where the real grooming and honing of the Darkside begins where Snoke fills the void of his family with himself. I won't turn my back on you. I will make you strong.
 
For those who watch/read the Walking Dead, this is how Negan groomed his Saviors to become drones for him--strip away everything that means anything and break his subjects then offer comfort and praise for absolute fealt. But that comes a a price. You do EVERYTHING your master wishes of you or back in the hole you go. So in the name of self-preservation you are conditioned to accept and perform very heinous acts because absolute obedience has been ingrained into the very fabric of who you are.


When looking at absolute extremes, offering your life in servitude is ultimately a less painful prospect even if the cost is your own agency. Snoke would have unfettered access to home the Darkside and create a monster that functions within in that construct. Yes, he makes bad decisions and is a monster, because that is the only choice, therefore it becomes normalized in his own mind.


And maybe that is how Kylo Ren came to be--complete control over someone where it appears they have agency, but that sense of self is destroyed in the name of self-preservation. Perhaps that is one reason Kylo briefly faltered when his father said he wanted to take him home and that they still missed him. It went against everything he had heard since the night of the Jedi attack. 
 
Not saying this is going to happen, but something like this may tie all of the loose ends together.
@Macha Ren

I have a very similar theory. I do fairly strongly believe that Ben's "abandonment" was linked to a real, tangible event...such as being kidnapped or captured as part of what happened with the temple, and isn't just a matter of him feeling like his parents weren't there enough for him while growing up. I'll also add the fact that as Vader's grandson, Ben was practically the "ultimate Vader relic" (outside of Luke and Leia).

This would address a lot of the "holes" in what we know about these events and would also give Ben/Kylo a sympathetic backstory that should really change Rey's and the audience's perception of Kylo.

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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by panki on Tue 15 Nov - 22:22

I had this crazy crazy idea.... in my view, an interesting backstory would be this (this is inspired a bit by the outline of the novel Catalyst with a bit of a biblical twist as well)....

1. Ben Solo is Luke's best student and the apple of his Uncle's eye.....he excels at everything and the other students are jealous...maybe he receives some special crystal to make his lightsaber.

2. Snoke or some other think tank in the FO arranges for the Vader reveal and the Skywalker family and the Solos are targeted....Ben might not have been communicating with Leia because he was building his lightsaber and was in meditation (we know from rebels that this process takes days) and Luke was away.......Luke's students see this as an opportunity and sell Ben's whereabouts to some group who want to kill/kidnap him (or maybe they sell him off to slavers- there are planets in the outer rim with slave pits and arenas in canon comics where jedi/padawans are seen as the star attraction and killed in horrible ways)... the disruption of his meditation causes the lightsaber crystal to crack.

3. Snoke sends the KOR to rescue Ben (Just like Luke was saved from one arena by the Gamesmaster sent by Vader)....Ben already went through a lot of suffering and in that vulnerable state, Snoke tells him that his family abandoned him...that the jedi don't care for family and attachments....that his Mother was more interested in the Republic....and his father was a thief and smuggler who left his son with Luke because he couldn't be bothered....and convinces him that the padawans sold him out because they were jealous and afraid of Vader...and how he should be as strong and merciless as Vader....teach them a lesson. He teaches Ben the old cross guard lightsaber design so he can still use the cracked kyber crystal.

4. Brainwashed and angry Ben returns to the jedi temple with the KOR when Luke is away....they kill all the padawans in a re-enactment of the Coruscant temple massacre.

5. Luke returns.... realizes what happened and blames himself for everything. He is ashamed, cannot face Leia and decides that he should spend the rest of his days in exile, at least protecting the first jedi temple from Snoke.

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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 16 Nov - 6:08

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
Macha Ren wrote:
nonesuch wrote:I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but I have noticed something very interesting in the Galactic Atlas, which is a new, Story Group-approved book. In preview pages that Jedi-Bibliothek had a few months ago, this was the description below Kylo's character entry:

“His Jedi training with Luke Skywalker ended in tragedy when, seduced by the dark side, he and his Knights of Ren slew his fellow students.”

Now, in the final published version that I have with me, it has changed. It now says this:

“His Jedi training with Luke Skywalker ended in tragedy when, seduced by the dark side, he betrayed the other students and was responsible for their destruction.”

That indicates some serious note-passing, as far as I'm concerned, and is another strong piece of evidence suggesting that what happened at Luke's not-academy might not have been a slaughter, but not another kind of destruction entirely. The final version has no reference to murdering students or the KoR, as the early version did.

@nonesuch



You very well may be on to something. I suspect that is exactly what is in play here. It's a bait and switch that is very intentional.  Star Wars has played the Certain Point of View since day one, and this very well be a long con to be revealed later. What if several points of view were manipulated by Snoke to get Ben Solo to fall?
 
Assumptions (choice of words intentional):
 
1. Ben Solo's fall culminated in kill all the other Jedi Learners.
 
Han said in TFA, "One boy destroyed it all." As @nonesuch pointed out, the official text has changed from "kill" to "destroy." The lines have blurred a bit in that past narrative and what exactly happened is no long parsed out in absolutes.
 
2. Adam Driver is likely one of the few cast memebers who knows Kylo's real back story. Perhaps it's his opinion or he let something slip before the spoiler shock collar deployed that Kylo's actions are rooted in a deep sense of abandonment.
 
At this point I think I'm going to take Adam at face value. This has been interpreted by some to be Ben Solo was a spoiled brat that never appreciated the good he had growing up the child of heroes. But what if that sense of abandonment did not arise until much later in his story (i.e. as he became Kylo Ren and not as a younger adolescent as assumed?
 
3. Snoke has been manipulating Ben since whenever.
 
Big question is when did that manipulation kick it up to eleven?
 
So here's a theory:
 
What if that sense of abandonment occurred AFTER the destruction of the Jedi school, that Ben Solo was a target during that massacre/attack and only an indirect instrument in it, and it was those students from within Luke's own camp that played a bigger role I. It's destruction?
 
Big leap there, I know. It's not to whitewash Kylo's sins, so bear with me.
 
If we look at that attack where Ben, as the only Skywalker heir, was a prize to be taken, Snoke controlled the narrative to the outside world because there appeared to be no survivors, and the only person that live to tell (Luke) was now in exile, a certain point of view could be twisted into whatever he wanted.
 
Now just say you have this captive 23 year old Ben who already has had Snoke in his head forever and has a predisposed proclivity for the Darkside and is cut off from the outside world. Snoke controls what he knows and hears.
 
Meanwhile you have his parents desperate to find out if their son has survived the attack because his remains were not recovered. They are searching everywhere for their son hoping he did not die, but Ben never knew this. Now let's just say on one end word gets out (via Snoke) that Ben Solo was responsible for the massacre and that he has given himself to the Darkside. There is no way to verify this, but ultimately those searching for answers accept it as truth. Han and Leia would be devastated and angry, and all active searching for Ben would cease.
 
On the other side of this, what if you had Snoke manipulating what Ben knows? What if distorted the news that his parents never searched for him in the first place, that they never had those sleepless nights praying he was still alive? What if Snoke's true manipulation began at THIS point to make Ben believe his parents had abandoned him? There would be no way to verify it. And what if this is where that crushing sense of abandonment stems from because his only connection to the outside world (Snoke) has convinced him that his family has thrown him away like garbage?
 
Now you have this not so balanced to start with Skywalker heir who would be very vulnerable to manipulation if Snoke has just broken him emotionally. That's where the real grooming and honing of the Darkside begins where Snoke fills the void of his family with himself. I won't turn my back on you. I will make you strong.
 
For those who watch/read the Walking Dead, this is how Negan groomed his Saviors to become drones for him--strip away everything that means anything and break his subjects then offer comfort and praise for absolute fealt. But that comes a a price. You do EVERYTHING your master wishes of you or back in the hole you go. So in the name of self-preservation you are conditioned to accept and perform very heinous acts because absolute obedience has been ingrained into the very fabric of who you are.


When looking at absolute extremes, offering your life in servitude is ultimately a less painful prospect even if the cost is your own agency. Snoke would have unfettered access to home the Darkside and create a monster that functions within in that construct. Yes, he makes bad decisions and is a monster, because that is the only choice, therefore it becomes normalized in his own mind.


And maybe that is how Kylo Ren came to be--complete control over someone where it appears they have agency, but that sense of self is destroyed in the name of self-preservation. Perhaps that is one reason Kylo briefly faltered when his father said he wanted to take him home and that they still missed him. It went against everything he had heard since the night of the Jedi attack. 
 
Not saying this is going to happen, but something like this may tie all of the loose ends together.
@Macha Ren

I have a very similar theory. I do fairly strongly believe that Ben's "abandonment" was linked to a real, tangible event...such as being kidnapped or captured as part of what happened with the temple, and isn't just a matter of him feeling like his parents weren't there enough for him while growing up. I'll also add the fact that as Vader's grandson, Ben was practically the "ultimate Vader relic" (outside of Luke and Leia).

This would address a lot of the "holes" in what we know about these events and would also give Ben/Kylo a sympathetic backstory that should really change Rey's and the audience's perception of Kylo.
@ISeeAnIsland

This is something I'm convinced happened. Ben went missing the day of the massacre, Han and Leia were led to believe he'd turned, he was made to believe they'd abandoned him. This would explain several things:
Kylo feeling an affinity for Rey. Like him, she'd been abandoned by her parents.
Kylo warning her Han would 'disappoint' as a father.
Kylo telling his father 'it's too late'.
Han firmly believing his son lost.
Rey refusing to obey Luke's request to kill Kylo - he thinks his nephew is a remorseless murderer, when she sees inside his head and knows he had nothing to do with the slaughter.

It would be one heck of a reveal...
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by snufkin on Wed 16 Nov - 8:10

I like all of these theories and remember Han's line about "too much Vader in him," which left it open to interpretation. Most probably took it literally as a reference to the PT. But it can't be that simplistic, maybe more to do with the amount of DS powers he possessed. Also possibly in terms of the scenarios where the other students turned on him after Leia was outed by her political opponents.

Also just because I tend to think that the parallel between him and Rey has to be that this event parallels what happened to her and her family, then it has to be Snoke and others behind the scenes. If something happened where he was the victim of fallout after the adults in his family were targeted, then likely for her as well.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by creepi0 on Wed 16 Nov - 17:03

Man, It seem Lucasfilm try to bait and switch the audience about "Who is Rey parents are ?" and What happen to Luke jedi order and how its destruction. Also the way Pablo  always said Kylo as the "Jedi Killer" with punctuation is really suspicious.

I'm no stranger seeing a company trying misdirect people for a twist of the story, it happen to me recently. I won't be surprised if turn out he didn't kill his fellow student or friends but whatever happen to destruction of Luke jedi order definitely what caused him to go rogue
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by guardienne on Wed 16 Nov - 20:02

the line in the movie was always 'destroyed luke's work' so going by the movie alone and not being bothered by all the secondary material rhetorics (ain't got time for that), he may have simply destroyed his collection of bits or whatever.

there may have been deaths and he may have been involved with this but i don't think he was the leader of that gang or whatever. i feel like the popular reading is that he was told to do it as a test but then that wouldn't be manipulative from snoke's side, that'd just make ben someone who does as he's told, which is really icky. i don't think he's weak like this. and i also don't think he's going to simply go back to mum and apologise and all shall be well. but either way, the whole thing about redemption being that he returns to the light, well, sod that, to be honest. depending on what went down at luke's praxeum, it might not be something he is particularly comfortable with either way. he seems to find it all a little abhorrent.

i really don't buy that he was kidnapped and/or tortured. i think this is self-imposed and this is why he can leave the FO.
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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by CienaRee on Fri 2 Dec - 0:35

Has anyone seen this part of an interview where Adam discusses Kylo Ren and him being sort of a terrorist but not really:
http://nonibear11.tumblr.com/post/153918846995/adam-driver-and-michael-shannon-discuss-kylo-ren
Lol,thank you Adam for acknoweding that if the FO is a terrorist group than so are the Reistance because both believe that they're doing what's right and are ready to do anything to  achieve their goals .I also like the paralell between the Rebellion destroying the Death Star where there probably families there or at least people had one(IMO,I love Adam throwing shade about the Empire being the supposedly ''bad guys'' so that justifies blowing them up Laughing )and the Empire destroying Alderaan.It's really intersting how two similiar actions by both groups can be pereceived differently because they portrayed the Empire as very one note and ''evil''while the Rebellion was suppose to be ''good.''
It's really what we've been talking about but it'' good to hear Adam has also thought about it as well and I think makes his portryal of Kylo much more belivable that way.

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Re: Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

Post by snufkin on Fri 2 Dec - 1:02

The ST sounds more like a present day situation of a civil war between factions versus earlier history, where it was a rebellion for the OT. Or maybe it's like the debates which have come up over the Allies' behavior in WWII with the firebombing of Dresden (Kurt Vonnegut was both witness and a survivor because he had been captured and transported there as a prisoner of war), how much was strategic versus how much was sheer retribution for the V-2 rocket attacks on London. Or the justification for dropping the A Bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki because it supposedly stopped further military casualties, nevermind the costs to the civilian populations.
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