ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 22 Nov - 0:00

And we have yet ANOTHER 3+ hour episode of NTIP from MSW up now.

Here's the list of topics for today's episode:

  • Steele Saunders from Steele Wars stops by the studio to join in the fun.
  • An exclusive interview ith Funko's Mark Robben
  • Rogue One and Gareth Edwards meet ASSERT
  • Rogue One: Catalyst thoughts so far
  • A Rogue One 360 degree video experience
  • Some minor spoilers on Star Wars: Episode VIII new characters
  • Emilia Clarke cast in Han Solo: A Star Wars Story
  • Rogue One receivs a rating.
  • New Rogue One: A Star Wars Story tv spots and posters
  • Pod People
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by Maria Antonietta on Tue 22 Nov - 0:07

ISeeAnIsland wrote:And we have yet ANOTHER 3+ hour episode of NTIP from MSW up now.

Here's the list of topics for today's episode:

  • Steele Saunders from Steele Wars stops by the studio to join in the fun.
  • An exclusive interview ith Funko's Mark Robben
  • Rogue One and Gareth Edwards meet ASSERT
  • Rogue One: Catalyst thoughts so far
  • A Rogue One 360 degree video experience
  • Some minor spoilers on Star Wars: Episode VIII new characters
  • Emilia Clarke cast in Han Solo: A Star Wars Story
  • Rogue One receivs a rating.
  • New Rogue One: A Star Wars Story tv spots and posters
  • Pod People
@ISeeAnIsland

3+ hours? omg I cannot.
Here's the link
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by Reynak on Tue 22 Nov - 0:18

@snufkin
HF has always been good at showing vulnerability and humanity but subtlety isn't most fanboys's strong point, so they only saw Han's charm and badassery but not his insecurities.

Another thing that amazes me is how many fanboys complained that Kylo was ugly. I wonder why they should care, why does he need to be handsome? I guess he doesn't look bad***, despite being so tall and strong. He looks like a nerd and if they identify with Finn or Poe, losing the girl to a Han Solo type is easier to accept than losing their prize to a nerd, LOL.

I keep speculating because these visceral reactions against a fictional character are worth considering. I guess they link to your interpretation that the character questions the masculinity cliches too many fans are used to and expect to find time after time.


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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by BastilaBey on Tue 22 Nov - 0:44

2 hours 15 minutes in they answer a question about Rey and Finn spending time apart in VIII. It's mostly joking around though, they say she's going to unfriend him on facebook!
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by snufkin on Tue 22 Nov - 7:31

Reynak wrote:@snufkin
HF has always been good at showing vulnarability and humanity but subtlety isn't most fanboys's strong point, so they only saw Han's charm and badassery but not his insecurities.

Another thing that amazes me is how many fanboys complained that Kylo was ugly. I wonder why they should care, why does he need to be handsome? I guess he doesn't look bad***, despite being so tall and strong. He looks like a nerd and if they identify with Finn or Poe, losing the girl to a Han Solo type is easier to accept than losing their price to a nerd, LOL.

I keep speculating because these visceral reactions against a fictional character are worth considering. I guess it links to your interpretation that the character questions the masculinity cliches too many fans are used to and expect to find time after time.

@Reynak

And this goes with the larger discussion about fanboys/viewer expectations of masculinity, especially given some of the "there's always somebody shirtless in the 2nd movie of the trilogy" discussion ;)

What Makes A Celebrity Take Off His Shirt For over a hundred years, shirtlessness has communicated specific ideas about manhood. So why do we feel nothing when a celebrity takes off his shirt today?

Buzzfeed wrote:Look at a moment of prominent male shirtlessness and you’ll see a culture trying to sort out its “ideal” chest, but you’ll also observe standards for how men should behave and feel in public and in private, on the job and in the bedroom. When a celebrity takes off his shirt, whether it’s Marlon Brando in the ’50s or Justin Bieber in the 2010s, he’s summoning ever-fluctuating currents of masculinity to the surface, to be read, appreciated, and analyzed.

Depending on the era, celebrity shirtlessness has served as an act (a declaration) and a reaction (a means of changing a pre-existing conversation). And after closely studying its public occurrence over the last century, those acts and reactions appear in cycles, like a never-ending feedback loop of naked chests. Each cycle generally starts, as with Sandow, with a declaration of masculinity against a backdrop of fear — that men, and society at large, is becoming feminized in some way. In those cases, shirtlessness provides proof of a robust, potent, masculinity. Once that anxiety is soothed, it’s countered by more emotive, vulnerable, far less terrified — even embracing — aspects of femininity. Sometime in the 1990s, that cycle explodes; as shirtlessness proliferates, its capacity to create meaning disappears.

It seems obvious that a man without a shirt in a national magazine, a widely distributed film still, or viral image on the internet is sending a message about masculinity. What’s less obvious, however, is how those messages have changed — and in an era seemingly saturated with shirtlessness, how much they communicate about the desperate need for masculinity to forcefully, aggressively, unceasingly reassert itself.


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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by Darth_Awakened on Tue 22 Nov - 8:22

BastilaBey wrote:2 hours 15 minutes in they answer a question about Rey and Finn spending time apart in VIII. It's mostly joking around though, they say she's going to unfriend him on facebook!
@BastilaBey

because she has a new "friend" on FB, and relationship status suddenly changes into "it is complicated"

lol!


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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by guardienne on Tue 22 Nov - 9:51

@reynak maybe he's not outright androgynous but he's clearly coded to be both? the bleeding on the floor, the sensitivity, the way he's made up? and then waves his big phallus symbol around and is all menacing? it's pretty confusing.

i really like all of this. but like @bastilabey said, he's queer-coded but not in the same way that other villains have been. i haven't seen any disney movie (save TFA) in ages, so i'm not exactly sure what i'm talking about.

and thank you so much for getting back to me anyway Waves i agree with many of your points. it's an interesting meta discussion.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by Saracene on Tue 22 Nov - 10:35

I don't know if I'd describe Kylo as androgynous as such but he definitely has a mix of masculine and feminine characteristics, both in terms of appearance and temperament.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by WhatGirl on Tue 22 Nov - 17:00

Kudos to anyone who can talk for 3 hours mostly about Rogue One. I can't do it for 3 minutes. Razz
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by ZenBrainJam on Tue 22 Nov - 20:29

BastilaBey wrote:@guardienne You're welcome, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the new episode when you get time to listen.

That's a good point about the editing, I'll suggest to nonesuch. We want a clear divide between the segments but I agree that that could sound too repetitive. Some podcasters use cheesy music but that's not really our thing!

We discussed Letter Never Sent because of its possible relevance to episode VIII. Over time we plan to talk about all of the films Rian mentioned but it will take us a while to watch them all. We've both watched Three Outlaw Samurai so that will probably be the next one.

Thanks @Darth_Awakened, @Saracene and I'm sorry @zenbrainjam you can't follow the discussion. I had wondered if we could transcribe the episodes as I've seen other podcasters do but it would be far too time-consuming.
@BastilaBey

No no, transcription would require too much time, I will support you basing my judgment on pure faith in your good quality content!!
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by guardienne on Tue 22 Nov - 21:31

@zenbrainjam i do think that some people are having their videos subtitled and i'm not sure how it's done in youtube but it's like an auto-subtitle, not a transcription?
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by Reynak on Wed 23 Nov - 2:39

guardienne wrote:@reynak maybe he's not outright androgynous but he's clearly coded to be both? the bleeding on the floor, the sensitivity, the way he's made up? and then waves his big phallus symbol around and is all menacing? it's pretty confusing.

i really like all of this. but like @bastilabey said, he's queer-coded but not in the same way that other villains have been. i haven't seen any disney movie (save TFA) in ages, so i'm not exactly sure what i'm talking about.

and thank you so much for getting back to me anyway Waves i agree with many of your points. it's an interesting meta discussion.
@guardienne

cheers,@guardienne. It's so much fun to discuss with you, and with everyone here. We agree on many things, but we also see some others differently and that's good because there wouldn't be discussion if we saw everything the same way. I agree that this meta discussion is really interesting and that Kylo is confusing,contrast is always present in him and that's normal because he looks and seems vulnerable but very strong, sensitive and emotional at the same time. He looks boyish but also very manly, he has sharp features but full lips and a soft gaze.

And as he may be coded as queer (although I don't get why myself), that saber of his is such an obvious phallic symbol that's surprising.
Can anyone tell me how he is coded as queer? Just because he has some "feminine" traits?

He seems really manly to me, that's why I find it surprising that others say he is androgynous or coded as queer, just because I didn't get it myself as I saw the movie.


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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by snufkin on Wed 23 Nov - 4:46

@Reynak

Is Kylo Ren Queer-Coded? Well, Yes And No.

I’ve personally been humoring the idea that Kylo Ren’s encounter w/Han Solo is a commentary on neo-masculinity. Like Han represents old-guard swagger and grit and “benevolent sexism” and is a masculinity relic… he’s literally a cowboy. An artefact of a different age of manhood. Kylo Ren represents the new face of such: internally tortured, confused, with wildly inappropriate idealizations and bad posture. Watch Kylo Ren walk around uneasily in his uniform next time you see the film, see how forced his movements are. Kylo’s nervous stilted gait represents the new guard carrying the torch for men’s advocacy. Kylo winds up doing what he does (SPOILER: murders his dad) cuz of his misplaced interpretation of how masculinity works: aka a compulsive desire to “prove himself”.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed 23 Nov - 8:32

snufkin wrote:@Reynak

Is Kylo Ren Queer-Coded? Well, Yes And No.

I’ve personally been humoring the idea that Kylo Ren’s encounter w/Han Solo is a commentary on neo-masculinity. Like Han represents old-guard swagger and grit and “benevolent sexism” and is a masculinity relic… he’s literally a cowboy. An artefact of a different age of manhood. Kylo Ren represents the new face of such: internally tortured, confused, with wildly inappropriate idealizations and bad posture. Watch Kylo Ren walk around uneasily in his uniform next time you see the film, see how forced his movements are. Kylo’s nervous stilted gait represents the new guard carrying the torch for men’s advocacy. Kylo winds up doing what he does (SPOILER: murders his dad) cuz of his misplaced interpretation of how masculinity works: aka a compulsive desire to “prove himself”.
@snufkin

"Bad posture"? Shocked

I personally always saw Kylo as very masculine with some prominent traditionally feminine qualities, and Rey as very feminine with prominent traditionally masculine qualities. I never saw either of them as being coded as queer or androgynous, because that's the way real people are regardless of gender or orientation, intriguing blends of this and that instead of checklists of stereotypical qualities.

I thought it was very well done. Being how they are also makes their dynamic all the more exciting. And I don't know how much of it was accidental, anyway, but I still love it.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by snufkin on Wed 23 Nov - 8:56

Darth Dingbat wrote:
snufkin wrote:@Reynak

Is Kylo Ren Queer-Coded? Well, Yes And No.

I’ve personally been humoring the idea that Kylo Ren’s encounter w/Han Solo is a commentary on neo-masculinity. Like Han represents old-guard swagger and grit and “benevolent sexism” and is a masculinity relic… he’s literally a cowboy. An artefact of a different age of manhood. Kylo Ren represents the new face of such: internally tortured, confused, with wildly inappropriate idealizations and bad posture. Watch Kylo Ren walk around uneasily in his uniform next time you see the film, see how forced his movements are. Kylo’s nervous stilted gait represents the new guard carrying the torch for men’s advocacy. Kylo winds up doing what he does (SPOILER: murders his dad) cuz of his misplaced interpretation of how masculinity works: aka a compulsive desire to “prove himself”.
@snufkin

"Bad posture"? :shock:

I personally always saw Kylo as very masculine with some prominent traditionally feminine qualities, and Rey as very feminine with prominent traditionally masculine qualities. I never saw either of them as being coded as queer or androgynous, because that's the way real people are regardless of gender or orientation, intriguing blends of this and that instead of checklists of stereotypical qualities.

I thought it was very well done. Being how they are also makes their dynamic all the more exciting. And I don't know how much of it was accidental, anyway, but I still love it.

@Darth Dingbat

Maybe a reference to the stomping or the full costume with hood up? He does have some runway model moments while trying to find Rey on SKB. Agreed with you on the bold. I do think the "he lost to a girl >: ( " type comments are picking up on an audience member's discomfort with that in particular, neither one of them hews so close to the gender stereotypes you'd see in most blockbuster movies. I certainly expected that she'd be slotted into the Hero's More Competent Sidekick role going in for the first time because that's how Hollywood rolls most of the time.

The other thing about coding is that the ST breaks away from the LS-good and DS-bad binary, especially in showing that he's equal capacity for both and have obviously struggled with trying to suppress one side or the other in himself. Which some on here have said reminds them of gender or sexuality being constructed as binaries instead of allowing people to fall wherever they feel like it on the spectrum.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by guardienne on Wed 23 Nov - 10:43

oh but the man hunches @darth dingbat not all the time, he seems to straighten up considerably on takodana, but yes, he hunches.

i just found this: http://theroguefeminist.tumblr.com/post/56658099133/queer-codedqueer-coding because i'm a bit unsure (quite a bit unsure) of what the queer-coding thing means.

Even traits that have become tropes for villains (being well-dressed; having feminine mannerisms or manner of speech; being aristocratic in manner, wealth and appearance; being a smooth talker; having flamboyant hand gestures, manners of dress, and decor in their homes/lairs; having little to no interest in women; being conniving or catty etc etc etc) show how deeply imbedded queer coding as been to the point where queer qualities are associated with evil.

which struck me because his interest in rey is definitely what makes him not very queer at all  Tire langue

Pre-Hays Code, homosexual implications were made mostly for humor. Actress Shirley MacLaine observes in the film The Celluloid Closet that “sissies” occupied a sexless neutral space in the character roster. This allows more heteronormative characters to more effectively express their “manliness” or “womanliness” through the foil of the sissy failing to perform either completely.

http://harlot.media/articles/2725/queer-coding-vs-queer-baiting

i'm only quoting to see that the queer-coding isn't done to full effect i guess? it's really interesting and i'm not sure i can really decide what t it is hey've done.

personally, the trans reading really struck gold for me. to a degree a religious reading works as well, but with trans you get all the secrecy and the self-hatred.

@reynak glad you're enjoying it, i haven't seen you around much  Waves
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by ZenBrainJam on Wed 23 Nov - 15:02

guardienne wrote:@zenbrainjam i do think that some people are having their videos subtitled and i'm not sure how it's done in youtube but it's like an auto-subtitle, not a transcription?
@guardienne

Yes it's automatic and not very precise tbh
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by snufkin on Wed 23 Nov - 18:35

I do wonder if a certain % of the hate this character gets and peoples' ridiculous conclusions are because they've been conditioned by the media because of these "types," especially in Disney movies.


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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by IoJovi on Wed 23 Nov - 18:41

Yeah, I don't see Kylo as queer-coded at all.  I know what that looks like, and Kylo falls no where in that description.  Sure, he has feminine traits, but Rey also has masculine traits (as someone else pointed out), and if anything, all it shows is both are well developed, multidimensional characters.

It's also very clear in TFA Kylo Ren is attracted to women, so there's that too...

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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by BastilaBey on Wed 23 Nov - 18:46

IoJovi wrote:Yeah, I don't see Kylo as queer-coded at all.  I know what that looks like, and Kylo falls no where in that description.  Sure, he has feminine traits, but Rey also has masculine traits (as someone else pointed out), and if anything, all it shows is both are well developed, multidimensional characters.

It's also very clear in TFA Kylo Ren is attracted to women, so there's that too...
@IoJovi

I think I was the first one to bring this up, and it seems like wires have been crossed? I said I do not think Kylo is queer-coded, but that that's why the idea of potential canon Kylux does bother me. (not that I think that would happen, but as an idea. I don't have issues with it as a ship at all). There's a long precedent for queer-coded villains and it's something that fucks up queer kids.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by IoJovi on Wed 23 Nov - 18:56

BastilaBey wrote:
IoJovi wrote:Yeah, I don't see Kylo as queer-coded at all.  I know what that looks like, and Kylo falls no where in that description.  Sure, he has feminine traits, but Rey also has masculine traits (as someone else pointed out), and if anything, all it shows is both are well developed, multidimensional characters.

It's also very clear in TFA Kylo Ren is attracted to women, so there's that too...
@IoJovi

I think I was the first one to bring this up, and it seems like wires have been crossed? I said I do not think Kylo is queer-coded, but that that's why the idea of potential canon Kylux does bother me. (not that I think that would happen, but as an idea. I don't have issues with it as a ship at all). There's a long precedent for queer-coded villains and it's something that fucks up queer kids.
@BastilaBey

Totally get it - the trope of the queer-coded villain is unfortunate, and I can see how it would be discouraging to a young (or older) person who identifies in that way.

I got the impression though that there are those in certain camps that do see Kylo written that way, and I think it does a disservice to the character. Shedding tears or other emotional displays unfortunately is seen as anti-masculine by some members of the audience (or just...not being villainy enough). I think many men in real life would be happier as individuals if they didn't feel pressure to bottle everything up into a neat little container.

I also agree, Kylux as a fandom ship in itself is completely harmless, but canon Kylux would be a disaster for a multitude of reasons, which you just laid out.

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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by BastilaBey on Wed 23 Nov - 19:05

@iojovi

Sure, I think most perceptive people can see that Kylo is a villain written to reflect today’s angry young men who struggle with their emotions. They can’t reconcile the fact that there are masculine and feminine attributes in everyone, and that that’s healthy. Whether an individual interprets that as androgynous or simply a nuanced character is up to each of us and probably colored by our understanding of our own identities.

The funny thing is when people say that it’s his characterization as a young, entitled zealot that somehow proves he’s beyond redemption. In my eyes, it’s the exact opposite. Is the central message of a Star Wars trilogy really going to be that there’s no reaching these boys? That a brave and competent young woman really can’t show him there’s a better way to live and relate to others? OK.

LF and Disney know exactly what they’re doing here. Vader was the perfect villain for his day and age, Kylo is for his.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by Moonjump05 on Wed 23 Nov - 19:08

I get where the queer coding conversation for villains comes from, but it seems to ignore another aspect of portraying villains versus portraying heroes.

Wholesomeness.

You don't see many villains with interest in women because the 'more wholesome' option of a loving relationship is almost always taken up by the hero. This greatly limits the villian's portrayal since another relationship is repetitive and would move the villian into anti hero territory if shown sympathetically. You might get a villian with a hedonistic harem or something, but again that is the less wholesome option.

So unless you want your villian to be a creep, you may just ignore any woman attraction.

The Wholesomeness angle comes into play for the decadent lifestyle options as well- here is this hedonistic villian who surrounds himself with all these ... things, in contrast to the simpler and more down to earth hero who knows what is really important.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by Darth_Awakened on Wed 23 Nov - 19:46

BastilaBey wrote:@iojovi

Sure, I think most perceptive people can see that Kylo is a villain written to reflect today’s angry young men who struggle with their emotions. They can’t reconcile the fact that there are masculine and feminine attributes in everyone, and that that’s healthy. Whether an individual interprets that as androgynous or simply a nuanced character is up to each of us and probably colored by our understanding of our own identities.

The funny thing is when people say that it’s his characterization as a young, entitled zealot that somehow proves he’s beyond redemption. In my eyes, it’s the exact opposite. Is the central message of a Star Wars trilogy really going to be that there’s no reaching these boys? That a brave and competent young woman really can’t show him there’s a better way to live and relate to others? OK.

LF and Disney know exactly what they’re doing here. Vader was the perfect villain for his day and age, Kylo is for his.

This. And when you add: love, compassion and hope as central vibes of SW - there is no way, that last Skywalker is going to choose to remain evil.
@BastilaBey


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Re: ARCHIVE: Discussion: Podcasts - 3

Post by IoJovi on Wed 23 Nov - 19:52

@Moonjump05 that's a really great post about wholesomeness. I know we discuss at length the sexual undertones of Kylo and Rey's scenes but at the very crux of it, his interest in her is probably the most wholesome, innocent thing he's got going on at the moment, and he doesn't even realize it yet...

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