ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by ZioRen on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 6:15 pm

Unrelated to anything, but there's a poll on Starwars.com asking who our favorite character introduced in TFA was. Right now Rey is strongly in front with Kylo second place!

http://www.starwars.com/news/poll-who-is-your-favorite-character-introduced-in-star-wars-the-force-awakens
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by LondonGal555 on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 6:22 pm

Thanks. I will definitely read that

Has anyone ever hear bb8 say Kira when she is in mazs castle? She is in the hallway about to walk into the room where the lightsaber is in and bb8 is following her and says it. I know Jj was going to originally name her Kira but maybe he decided to go with Rey but Make Reys birth name Kira?!?!
~ Just a thought.

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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by BastilaBey on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 6:32 pm

Adam talking about why Kylo is the character he's played who he related to most

I feel like that character [Kylo] makes sense to me. The family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and lot of anger that that creates and that last a lifetime. When we finished that I was like I believe we made that personal.

This gives me a lot of feelings because it's one of the big reasons I relate to the character too. Parent and child relationships can be so fragile and difficult to navigate, even with love there.

http://bentages.tumblr.com/post/153962951535/i-feel-like-that-character-kylo-makes-sense-to

from this interview
https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson

So Kylo's desperate for a sense of belonging...hmm, and who else is?
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by Magnolia_3.0 on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 6:33 pm

@LondonGal555 wrote:Thanks. I will definitely read that

Has anyone ever hear bb8 say Kira when she is in mazs castle? She is in the hallway about to walk into the room where the lightsaber is in and bb8 is following her and says it. I know Jj was going to originally name her Kira but maybe he decided to go with Rey but Make Reys birth name Kira?!?!
~ Just a thought.
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How do you know he said "Kira"?
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by ZioRen on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 6:41 pm

@BastilaBey wrote:Adam talking about why Kylo is the character he's played who he related to most

I feel like that character [Kylo] makes sense to me. The family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and lot of anger that that creates and that last a lifetime. When we finished that I was like I believe we made that personal.

This gives me a lot of feelings because it's one of the big reasons I relate to the character too. Parent and child relationships can be so fragile and difficult to navigate, even with love there.

http://bentages.tumblr.com/post/153962951535/i-feel-like-that-character-kylo-makes-sense-to

from this interview
https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson

So Kylo's desperate for a sense of belonging...hmm, and who else is?
@BastilaBey

Something about this is super interesting to me. It's making me wonder again about Kylo's relationship with Luke and what his goals really are. After all, Luke seems to have basically raised him for a good portion of his life. I can't believe there's just hatred there.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by Rogue Rey on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 6:46 pm

@ZioRen wrote:
@BastilaBey wrote:Adam talking about why Kylo is the character he's played who he related to most

I feel like that character [Kylo] makes sense to me. The family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and lot of anger that that creates and that last a lifetime. When we finished that I was like I believe we made that personal.

This gives me a lot of feelings because it's one of the big reasons I relate to the character too. Parent and child relationships can be so fragile and difficult to navigate, even with love there.

http://bentages.tumblr.com/post/153962951535/i-feel-like-that-character-kylo-makes-sense-to

from this interview
https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson

So Kylo's desperate for a sense of belonging...hmm, and who else is?
@BastilaBey

Something about this is super interesting to me. It's making me wonder again about Kylo's relationship with Luke and what his goals really are. After all, Luke seems to have basically raised him for a good portion of his life. I can't believe there's just hatred there.
@ZioRen

I wonder that too - because like you said there's every chance that Luke raised him longer than his actual parents so unless he blames Luke more than his parents for the lies and his seduction by Snoke then there is surely something else going on with his desperation to find his uncle.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by LondonGal555 on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 6:49 pm

A few other people have said it sounds like Kira so I listened to it and to me it sounds like bb8 says Kira. Id love for you to Listen to it and tell me what you think?

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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by Darth Dementor on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 6:54 pm

Looks like there's another possible piece to the Rey puzzle? A buddy sent me this article and the resemblance and introduction a character from the droid cartoon show and Rey have some similarities.
http://www.cbr.com/wait-is-star-wars-rey-a-copy-of-a-character-from-the-droids-cartoon/?utm_source=CBR-FB-P&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_campaign=CBR-FB-P&view=list

Both grew up in a dessert world; wore similiar garbs; and both scavenged. I'm sure Reys not a beat for beat copy but it is something to mull over?

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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by snufkin on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 7:07 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Rogue Rey wrote:
@LondonGal555 wrote:It's interesting Ben kenobi is talking  in her force vision which makes me think she's a kenobi in some way.  
Rey is something more important though.  Maybe her father is a kenobi and her mom is something special too.     It looks like Reys staff is very important like a key to something?  I think Jakku is hiding something big..  Maybe Reys staff can open it.
@LondonGal555

Maybe - there's something clearly significant about Jakku.

Perhaps the book Aftermath: Empire's End will shed some much needed light on the relevance of Rey's 'home' planet seeing as the Battle of Jakku will feature in it.
@Rogue Rey

There's that, and someone (I think it might have been Pablo) said that after reading Empire's End, you'll want to go back and watch TFA again.
@ISeeAnIsland

I haven't read Aftermath yet, but isn't this area where the Battle of Jakku that's getting foreshadowed/hinted at happens? Including the ship she first scavenges and then flies through being one of the Imperial characters starship (I'm lazy, I just read everybody's comments on here after they've read the book)




As for the betrayal question, if RJ does a good job (which I trust, see the scenes in BB & Looper which introduce his male leads) with covering both Luke/Ben's backstory with Rey alone with Luke, they should be able to make it clear what went wrong in the past and how Rey is positioned to be at the center of the Force plot. That plus referencing what already happened in the 3rd act *should* be enough to have a really tense and angry reunion. Ben would be the most angriest, especially just coming from his Darkside 101 training. If they did end up running with the parallel with how Rey is reluctantly drawn into aiding Ben with the Jedi Temple/Ikea because of her moral code (JJ's words on the DVD commentary, she came to his rescue b/c she opposes the type of behavior Teedo has in stripping for parts), she'll probably agree to it being one small thing and then it grows more complicated from there. Reasons would likely include guilt over slashing his face and leaving him for Hux after their fight instead of being able to retrieve him and return him to Leia.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by Guest on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 7:07 pm

@ZioRen wrote:Unrelated to anything, but there's a poll on Starwars.com asking who our favorite character introduced in TFA was. Right now Rey is strongly in front with Kylo second place!

http://www.starwars.com/news/poll-who-is-your-favorite-character-introduced-in-star-wars-the-force-awakens
@ZioRen

lol, Hux at 3% and Kylo at 19%. Not much of a contest there. No wonder Hux hates him.


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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by ZioRen on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 7:12 pm

@Darth Dementor wrote:Looks like there's another possible piece to the Rey puzzle? A buddy sent me this article and the resemblance and introduction a character from the droid cartoon show and Rey have some similarities.
http://www.cbr.com/wait-is-star-wars-rey-a-copy-of-a-character-from-the-droids-cartoon/?utm_source=CBR-FB-P&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_campaign=CBR-FB-P&view=list

Both grew up in a dessert world; wore similiar garbs; and both scavenged. I'm sure Reys not a beat for beat copy but it is something to mull over?
@Darth Dementor

"Kybo Ren-Cha"? Alright now, that can't be a coincidence. Noooot doing much to disprove the complaints of lack of creativity in the ST, are you Disney? Laughing
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by IoJovi on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 7:15 pm

This article is total click-bait, but I get the feeling we'll be seeing more just like it as the day draws closer...
https://www.google.com/amp/www.australianetworknews.com/star-wars-8-sex-scenes-confirmed-kylo-ren-involved/amp/
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by LondonGal555 on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 7:24 pm

When people say that Kylo wants revenge I think it really doesn't make much sense since he has compassion for Rey and in the book he says " revenge is little more than an adolescent concession to personal vanity" I kind of think he wants to first get his confidence back by winning in a fight with her and I think he still wants to be her teacher still.

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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by Scavengerscum on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 8:16 pm

@Xylo Ren
I'm very excited to hear it Smile I was listening to a podcast the other day by...rebel...something? Can't remember now lol and they were saying in Torn Apart there's musical links to Across the Stars! So I'll be very interested to hear what you have to say.

With all the development they need to do with Kylo and the fact that he's already committed his greatest betrayals - I don't think we'll see him betray Rey...at least I hope not (also depends on the circumstances). He is a character in hell, he's done too much and the audience now needs to start sympathising with him and genuinely rooting for his redemption.

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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 8:41 pm

@Scavengerscum wrote:@Xylo Ren
I'm very excited to hear it Smile I was listening to a podcast the other day by...rebel...something? Can't remember now lol and they were saying in Torn Apart there's musical links to Across the Stars! So I'll be very interested to hear what you have to say.

With all the development they need to do with Kylo and the fact that he's already committed his greatest betrayals - I don't think we'll see him betray Rey...at least I hope not (also depends on the circumstances). He is a character in hell, he's done too much and the audience now needs to start sympathising with him and genuinely rooting for his redemption.
@Scavengerscum

I could see Kylo doing something that looks like a betrayal on the surface, but ends up being something else. However, I think you're basically right. If we're going to see a redemption by the end of IX, then killing Han kind of has to be his low point. I mean, what's he going to do that's more "evil" than that that he can still come back from? (Especially considering that many people think that killing Han totally crossed that line anyway.)

For Han's sacrifice to mean something, though, I really think we're going to start seeing the beginnings of a turn-around over the course of VIII.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by Darth Rowan on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 9:32 pm

@Scavengerscum wrote:@Xylo Ren
I'm very excited to hear it Smile I was listening to a podcast the other day by...rebel...something? Can't remember now lol and they were saying in Torn Apart there's musical links to Across the Stars!  So I'll be very interested to hear what you have to say.

With all the development they need to do with Kylo and the fact that he's already committed his greatest betrayals - I don't think we'll see him betray Rey...at least I hope not (also depends on the circumstances). He is a character in hell, he's done too much and the audience now needs to start sympathising with him and genuinely rooting for his redemption.


@Scavengerscum I also agree that there's not much more evil that Kylo Ren can do that would allow him to remain a credibly redeemed character by the end of episode 9. Even Vader had already essentially telegraphed his love of his son Luke in ESB, making it clear that there was some opportunity of redemption that didn't make his decision at the end of ep VI seem to be 'out of nowhere'. For Kylo Ren, I think he will have to make some kind of grand gesture towards either Leia or Rey to make clear to the GA that he doesn't hate them/want to destroy them (as incredible as that sounds), because a lot of people still believe that. affraid

I do think it's possible that Kylo will appear to be evil/worse at the beginning of episode 8, and in fact he may appear to betray Rey or Leia initially. I also think he's got to defeat or effectively thwart Rey in some way in order to establish credibility as a competent character because a lot of the GA resent that he was defeated in the snow duel by an untrained newb. But then gradually we'll see signs of conflict and then eventually there's got to be unequivocal reparation at some point, hopefully in 8 so that he's not redeemed at the very end. I personally am hoping that we'll learn he actually already began his redemption in episode 7 by being the one who leaked the intel about the FO's impending attack of the Illenium System to his mother without her knowing it, just to give her time to get out.

All of this is wishful thinking, of course. We shall see. XD

Anyway, off topic but I forgot to tell you about this in the welcome thread: there is a trick to tagging users with composed names like @Xylo Ren or myself (meaning names that have more than one word or that have special characters). You'll need to put the name between quote signs for the @ to create a notification for the user.

For example:
-For simple usernames (i.e, one word, no spaces or dashes: Berhan) just add @ next to the username: @Username
-For complex usernames (i.e., two words, dots, numbers or dashes: Darth Rowan) add @ next to the username and also put the username in quotes: @"User Name"

It's kind of a pain, but you get used to it after a while. There is a short cut to all this: if you use the "Quote" button when replying to a post, the user's name will automatically be tagged in your reply and the user will receive an alert. There are more tips and tricks in our FAQ.

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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by snufkin on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 9:57 pm

For all the "it won't be a re-hash" talk (which it can't because TFA already very smartly stole the best parts from ESB), they'll have to fake out the audience a little bit at least with something like how the crawl is about Vader's eeevil pursuit of Luke. Which Luke & the audience assumed it was one thing when it was something else. So it won't surprise me if I'm sitting there and the crawl is about his evil pursuit of Rey and how she's fled to Ache-to to meet Luke/save the Resistance/become a Jedi blah blah blah.

Other guess - if he's going to start turning, it'll be once he's realized that she knows whatever and that she goes against Luke in following through with this. Maybe a contrast with the "deep down he knows he's being used" situation with Snoke. And it's not as if she'll be a pushover in having this happen, she'll still be a hard a** on him the entire way.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by Scavengerscum on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 12:56 am

@Darth Rowan wrote:
@Scavengerscum wrote:@Xylo Ren
I'm very excited to hear it Smile I was listening to a podcast the other day by...rebel...something? Can't remember now lol and they were saying in Torn Apart there's musical links to Across the Stars!  So I'll be very interested to hear what you have to say.

With all the development they need to do with Kylo and the fact that he's already committed his greatest betrayals - I don't think we'll see him betray Rey...at least I hope not (also depends on the circumstances). He is a character in hell, he's done too much and the audience now needs to start sympathising with him and genuinely rooting for his redemption.


@Scavengerscum I also agree that there's not much more evil that Kylo Ren can do that would allow him to remain a credibly redeemed character by the end of episode 9. Even Vader had already essentially telegraphed his love of his son Luke in ESB, making it clear that there was some opportunity of redemption that didn't make his decision at the end of ep VI seem to be 'out of nowhere'. For Kylo Ren, I think he will have to make some kind of grand gesture towards either Leia or Rey to make clear to the GA that he doesn't hate them/want to destroy them (as incredible as that sounds), because a lot of people still believe that. affraid

I do think it's possible that Kylo will appear to be evil/worse at the beginning of episode 8, and in fact he may appear to betray Rey or Leia initially. I also think he's got to defeat or effectively thwart Rey in some way in order to establish credibility as a competent character because a lot of the GA resent that he was defeated in the snow duel by an untrained newb. [/b]But then gradually we'll see signs of conflict and then eventually there's got to be unequivocal reparation at some point, hopefully in 8 so that he's not redeemed at the very end. I personally am hoping that we'll learn he actually already began his redemption in episode 7 by being the one who leaked the intel about the FO's impending attack of the Illenium System to his mother without her knowing it, just to give her time to get out.

All of this is wishful thinking, of course. We shall see. XD

Anyway, off topic but I forgot to tell you about this in the welcome thread: there is a trick to tagging users with composed names like @Xylo Ren or myself (meaning names that have more than one word or that have special characters). You'll need to put the name between quote signs for the @ to create a notification for the user.

For example:
-For simple usernames (i.e, one word, no spaces or dashes: Berhan) just add @ next to the username: @Username
-For complex usernames (i.e., two words, dots, numbers or dashes: Darth Rowan) add @ next to the username and also put the username in quotes: @"User Name"

It's kind of a pain, but you get used to it after a while. There is a short cut to all this: if you use the "Quote" button when replying to a post, the user's name will automatically be tagged in your reply and the user will receive an alert. There are more tips and tricks in our FAQ.
@Darth Rowan

Oh thanks! I wondered if it was just because I was using my phone. Thanks so much though Smile definitely helped me out.
And yes, I'm very interested to see how Kylo has 'completed' his training and how that might effect him at the beginning of the movie and how he interacts with Rey. He needs his dark side street cred reinstated to up the stakes for the audience when he arrives on Ach-to so that whatever is revealed or subverted will be entirely unexpected in the GA. I also think about the symbolism behind the rebirth of the sun/son and I wonder how the writers will draw the link between Hans death and what it means for Kylo and his eventual redemption.

@snufkin
Yes, I definitely see that as how it begins. Fans will be all psyched up for it being like ESB and then BAM - the audience will be completely blindsided (I mean, I hope so.)

Grinds my gears when people say a redemption will be cliché or a rehash. I love Vader, I really do. I loved his redemption but I would never call it an 'arc'. He wasn't a young man, coming of age, growing up in political tension, in a world that seems too big for him and living in the shadow of a tyrant and trying to emulate him for a purpose he perceives as being a matter of crisis. Darth Vader was an old man who'd committed terrible, atrocious acts and sadly, the only person that really cared and whose redemption really affected, was Luke. (Aside from the fact that the Emperor would probably still be reigning supreme if it wasn't for Vader's redemption). But with Kylo, the stakes are so high; Hans death, Leias love for him, Lukes brokenness, the galaxy/balance of the force/legacy Skywalker and eventually, possibly, what it could mean to Rey? How is someone realising their wrongs, extricating themselves for a path that has caused so much pain and destruction, finding absolution outside of themselves and within themselves, healing the wrongs, seeking for forgiveness and being healed in return, a rehash or a cliché? I mean, even if it is (which its not) but even if it is a 'copy' or whatever people say, why wouldn't you want to see the epic story that could unfold from that? Dang nabbit.
Sorry for the rant, guys, but like I said, grinds my gears.

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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by snufkin on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 1:33 am

@scavengerscum wrote:@snufkin
Yes, I definitely see that as how it begins. Fans will be all psyched up for it being like ESB and then BAM - the audience will be completely blindsided (I mean, I hope so.)

Grinds my gears when people say a redemption will be cliché or a rehash. I love Vader, I really do. I loved his redemption but I would never call it an 'arc'. He wasn't a young man, coming of age, growing up in political tension, in a world that seems too big for him and living in the shadow of a tyrant and trying to emulate him for a purpose he perceives as being a matter of crisis. Darth Vader was an old man who'd committed terrible, atrocious acts and sadly, the only person that really cared and whose redemption really affected, was Luke. (Aside from the fact that the Emperor would probably still be reigning supreme if it wasn't for Vader's redemption). But with Kylo, the stakes are so high; Hans death, Leias love for him, Lukes brokenness, the galaxy/balance of the force/legacy Skywalker and eventually, possibly, what it could mean to Rey? How is someone realising their wrongs, extricating themselves for a path that has caused so much pain and destruction, finding absolution outside of themselves and within themselves, healing the wrongs, seeking for forgiveness and being healed in return, a rehash or a cliché? I mean, even if it is (which its not) but even if it is a 'copy' or whatever people say, why wouldn't you want to see the epic story that could unfold from that? Dang nabbit.
Sorry for the rant, guys, but like I said, grinds my gears.

I kind of hope that they pull that with the opening crawl because RJ is so very good at presenting stories in the style of a conventional genre and then plays with the genre to instead tell a much deeper/complex story (Looper uses film noir and science fiction to tell a story that's actually about family and morality).


The thing I "love" about those type of comment is that the people who making them are likely themselves a bit of a cliche. Meaning that they have absolutely no original or inventive thoughts in their minds to offer. There's how many goddamn superhero type movies around where every single bad guy is a zealot who gets badder and then killed? Or how every single TV show ever since the Sopranos has to be some anti-hero complicated bad guy? That's the f**king re-hash and cliche. It's not a re-hash or cliche showing how somebody can fall into darkness and pull themselves out of it, especially in tandem with another broken soul.

Besides, if it's a movie meant for people to go watch with their family at Christmas, how depressing is the "he'll just get badder, get killed scenario? You're going to go watch it with your family at Christmas and bond/be uplifted about Leia losing the last family member she had after a lifetime of losing everybody close to her?  That says more about somebody's lack of imagination and thinking that they're soooo clever than it does about what makes both a good film and message.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by Saracene on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 2:44 am

I suppose it's inevitable that Kylo's arc will repeat some of the beats used in Vader's redemption story, but that's only because redemption stories in general do have a pattern. For instance I don't expect Kylo to fully shake off Snoke's influence until the very end, where he also performs some huge self-sacrificial act. This sort of stuff is just most effective when it happens in a climatic sequence at the end of the film/trilogy. I do expect Episode VIII to move towards redemption, but it's going to be a bumpy ride. I think that the whole idea of getting Kylo to Luke's island is so that he can have development in an isolated environment away from Snoke that would have been impossible otherwise. But eventually his day job and the real world will come back into the picture and drama will ensue.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 5:01 am

@BastilaBey wrote:Adam talking about why Kylo is the character he's played who he related to most

I feel like that character [Kylo] makes sense to me. The family dynamic and desperately wanting family to be part of his life but not getting it. The anxiety and lot of anger that that creates and that last a lifetime. When we finished that I was like I believe we made that personal.

This gives me a lot of feelings because it's one of the big reasons I relate to the character too. Parent and child relationships can be so fragile and difficult to navigate, even with love there.

http://bentages.tumblr.com/post/153962951535/i-feel-like-that-character-kylo-makes-sense-to

from this interview
https://player.fm/series/awards-chatter/adam-driver-paterson

So Kylo's desperate for a sense of belonging...hmm, and who else is?
@BastilaBey

So, now there is almost no doubt what will be the common ground for the interesting relationship between Rey and Kylo to develop.
That's probably the thing Rey saw in Kylo's mind during the interrogation scene.

While in Vader's and Luke's case it was simply their father-son relation and the ideal image that the hero (Luke) had of it, that caused and motivated the deeper conflict between the two (not just simply hero vs. villain dynamics).
Rey and Kylo obviously should have something in common - to make further down their dynamics interesting and basically create the possibility for a mutual compassion.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 6:02 am

Honestly, I'm still surprised that so few people - even people who like Kylo - consider even the possibility that Kylo might actually have a heroic motive behind everything he's doing, and therefore not need a conventional redemption arc.

"I'll show them what I'm made of, they'll be proud of me when I'm gone, and then they'll be sorry they never believed in me when I was still alive" is a very childish way of thinking, but with someone like Kylo, it would make a lot more sense to me than "my parents didn't understand me when I was young; ergo, I hate the world and want everybody dead". A saviour complex leading someone to bite far more than they can chew, especially if that someone is an angsty loner who finds it hard to trust people and ask for help even when they most need it, can be very compelling IMO.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by Saracene on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 8:47 am

I have a few reasons for not believing in heroic!Kylo:

- SW heroism is not really of the end-justifies-the-means variety. Even when it does involve blowing up giant space ships with thousands of lives lost, the movies sidestep the entire issue and you're just meant to cheer for the good guys. But the destruction of the planets in TFA and Han's death *are* portrayed as sad and terrible. I can't see the movies then try and push the idea that a character can murder his father and stand by and do nothing while billions are incinerated and still have good and heroic motives at heart. It could be a fit for some other series that deal in murkier morality, but not SW IMO.

- If Kylo has heroic motives at heart, then his agenda needs to be vastly different to Snoke's. Because if his ultimate goal is the same as Snoke's, there's zero chance of the audience finding him sympathetic after the way Snoke and FO were portrayed in TFA. It's like trying to sell a heroic character who is totally onboard with Hitler's plans for conquest and genocide.

- Problem is, I think that "heroic Kylo who pretends to faithfully serve Snoke while having greater plans for the good of the galaxy" doesn't gel at all with the character shown so far. What we seem to have instead is "a troubled young man with major parents issues who was seduced by an evil influence but can't stamp out the last bits of goodness in himself". If Kylo's dark side loyalty is just a show, there's really no need for him to feel all angsty about feeling a pull to the light. It also makes no sense for him to be stung by Han's point that Snoke is using him if he's really playing his own game and using Snoke instead.

- I've no doubt that Kylo believes that he's doing the right thing, but that really doesn't mean anything. Hux is just as certain that FO is the force of good in the galaxy and so is Snoke, I'm sure.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by Maria Antonietta on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 9:18 am

He thinks he's on the right side of history and this could mean that maybe he's just misguided. Of course redemption is always on the table.
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Re: ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 13

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 03 Dec 2016, 11:27 am

@Saracene, I don't think we'll ever agree on this particular matter Very Happy You can be totally right, but I think there are a few of us on this forum who'll probably go on believing in the possibility of secretly heroic motives till doomsday Wink

When it comes to the destruction of the Hosnian system, though, I'm always surprised when people say Kylo was complicit in it. Even if - or especially if - his agenda is totally different from Snoke's, there was nothing he could do to stop it. And he couldn't protest it without revealing his hand, surely. He stares at Hux while the latter smirks at him, and then we see him looking at the pillar of fire in silence - and we only see the mask, not what he feels just then. For all we know, the moment might have made him feel a more urgent determination to follow through with his secret plan, to put a stop to things. He clearly didn't approve of the plan to destroy the Ileenium system, though one might argue it was because of his mother.

And about the pull to the light: he does say, "The Supreme Leader senses it." I always kind of assumed this was the crux of the matter; that Snoke can sense his lack of real commitment, and he needs to prove himself to Snoke for some reason.

I mean, I don't know what Kylo's agenda is, but I think there are enough clues that his goal probably isn't a straightforward plan to become Vader 2.0 to Snoke's Emperor 2.0. Even Hux seems to suspect that Kylo has "personal interests" that are in conflict with the FO's interests.

And it's funny - it's precisely because SW is ultimately quite simple that I think Kylo's true motives won't turn out to be evil and selfish ones, if he is indeed to be redeemed. Because it's much more complicated to make the audience forgive someone we've seen murder people, including his own father, if he does it out of a callous desire for power, for example. It's especially difficult to tell such a story effectively in the short space of two films. A revelation about Kylo's agenda and backstory is by far the easiest and dramatic way to turn things around for Kylo so that the question is no longer, "Ok, who's going to kill this bastard and how?" but "How far can you go in pursuit of a noble goal before you become your enemy? How far can you go and still come back? Can you come back?" The audience will never approve and excuse the specific acts Kylo has done. But the audience's perception of him would dramatically change if they found that his original motive was a genuinely good one. They would feel conflicted about him, uncertain about his fate - as we do now - instead of just hating him.

Adam et al. keep bringing up that Kylo believes he's doing the right thing. I personally think it would be a lot more interesting if the audience were made to see, and even understand, why he thinks he's doing the right thing.

He might also be more easily forgiven if they play up the mental illness/Snoke as a child abuser/brainwashing angle, but I don't really think they're going there, especially as Ben fell as a fully grown man. This angle made more sense when I first watched TFA, but with all the subsequent material, I don't think the sympathy/pity angle is going to be the crux of the story. (I think people know that I think the story may have changed: I think it's possible that Kylo was originally meant to have been a brainwashed, even kidnapped, adolescent, but then Rian came up with a better twist.)
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