Kylo/Ben and Finn as Foils

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Kylo/Ben and Finn as Foils

Post by MeadowofAshes on Wed 21 Dec 2016 - 20:08

A thread about Kylo/Ben and Finn as foils. Their anticipated relationship as the trilogy unfolds.

To begin, Kylo and Finn seem to fit the Black Knight and White Knight archetypes, respectively. Beyond Kylo obviously garbed in black as a Knight of Ren and Finn garbed in the traditional stormtrooper white, while Kylo's behavior is that of one who has fallen into darkness, Finn is the model of traditional chivalry, moving in to assist a "damsel in distress" on Jakku (until he sees she's quite capable on her own), repeatedly trying to take her hand, and bravely coming to rescue her on SKB.

Also... 

Kylo: *In a moment of "weakness" lets Finn go after he has disobeyed direct orders.*
Entire story arc: Set in motion.
Kylo: TRAITOR!
Rey, to Finn: We're not done yet.
Kylo, to Finn and Rey: We're not done yet.

Finn to Rey: You looked at me like no one ever had.
Poe to Finn: You're a good man, Finn.
Ben's anticipated Episode IX dialogue: You're a good man, Finn.

Essentially, based on the character arcs that have been set up as well as paralleling of dialogue within TFA, I expect we'll see a reversal in which, post-redemption, Ben comes to realize he has Finn as much as Rey to thank for his return to the light.

Aaaaaand... discuss!
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Re: Kylo/Ben and Finn as Foils

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 21 Dec 2016 - 21:53

I definitely think that you're on to something there, although I don't know if I see Kylo/Ben ever being able to admit Finn's role in his redemption.

I do think that they're foils in that, if my guess is correct, Finn's behavior and Rey's reaction to that behavior that we saw in TFA was being set up to contrast her future behavior with Kylo in VIII and/or IX. Why else have Finn's somewhat flirtatious behavior in there (grabbing Rey's hand and the "cute boyfriend" line) in a relationship that was meant to be platonic if not to contrast how Rey behaves with someone else?

Unless, as @snufkin mentions, they were just leftovers from the pre-HF-injury version of the script.

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Re: Kylo/Ben and Finn as Foils

Post by snufkin on Wed 21 Dec 2016 - 21:55

In broad strokes, Rey is the celestial body who pulls the both of them into her orbit and changes their trajectories during the course of the first movie. Finn goes from a defector and man trying to simply outrun his past to turning around and running back to oppose it. Both out of loyalty to her and also to take a stand. And for Ben/Ren, he goes from this initial figure of dread/fear to being deconstructed at the end as a fearful/cowardly and self destructive young man, who also displays an inordinate interest in this young woman.

If Rey's main relationship in VII was with Finn and how that changes the both of them/deepens their feelings for each other (which I've always seen as brother-sister), then it stands to reason that VIII and Ache-to will be with Kylo/Ben. For now their relationship is antagonistic, but we're all here because we've perceived that there's going to be something more going on between the two of them. And not just that there's an attraction between a lonely young woman and lonely young man, but between Light and Dark. And that they'll have to work together in order to move that fictional society forward in terms of the Force and spirituality. If the link between the PT and the ST is the failure of trying to recreate the past when that model doesn't work any more for a society (which we can guess is what caused Luke's exile and Ben's fall), then their shared arc has to include finding a new balance. Which will likely have to do with the original source of the Force found in the 1st temple, as well as the order Chirrut comes from.

In terms of Finn versus Ben, when they come face to face again, the balance of power will likely have flipped and Finn will be an actual big deal in the Resistance. He'll have the upper hand. And for VIII - I would hope that whatever dialogue/confrontation happens with Rey, one of the things that comes out of it is who's the braver/stronger man. For now, that's Finn.

ETA for @ISeeAnIsland's comment, it sounds like some of the Finn's "boyfriend?" question is a leftover from the initial draft of Rey and Finn's relationship, along with her yelling at her about taking her hand. It sounds from the DVD commentary track from JJ Abrams and press interviews that he rewrote a lot of their dialogue when HF was recovering from his accident. That it had originally been meant to have them bickering/tension and that it wasn't working. So we'll see. But I personally would be surprised if we get something like a contrast with hand grabbing and boyfriend business. I would expect that the tension will be that she is completely loyal to Finn as the closest she's ever had to family and for his self sacrifice for her. But that if she gets to know Ben/Kylo better and the history of what happened to him, her conflicted feelings will be because of guilt because of what he did to Finn.
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Re: Kylo/Ben and Finn as Foils

Post by Darth Dementor on Fri 23 Dec 2016 - 20:21

Finn is the personification of Ben's conscious, representing the goodness that still resides in the last Skywalker. In Episode VIII how Finn grows as a character will reflect Kylo's grapple with the light. The more Ben moves towards it the stronger a character Finn will be; or vice versa. The more Ben moves towards the dark Finn will struggle and doubt himself. What happens with Finn is a visual tell to show the audience the internal struggle Ben is having.

It's not a coincidence Finn was around when Kylo committed his most atrocious acts; the village massacre when he and Finn stared at each other showed how he felt killing the villagers was wrong. After Kylo killed Han and he and Finn glared at each other with disgust was another instance of Ben staring at his inner guilt. The biggest tell is how Ben lashed out and pummeled poor Finn but left him alive. And now Finn; ie Ben's conscious is with The Resistance ;ie his mother who he still deeply cares for.

To summarise it the more one rises so does the other. The more one falters so does his counterpart.

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Re: Kylo/Ben and Finn as Foils

Post by DarthRen on Sat 24 Dec 2016 - 3:49

Their dynamic is often overlooked but neverthless very important. There is a reason why Finn was always there whenever big momenrt with Kylo happened. Also, their relationship to Rey. Both of them basically asking if she's single. Dark and Light to her in that movie and i think this parallels will be in Episode VIII as Rey choose Light in TFA, she might choose Dark Side of the Force in he next episode.

I think what I found interesting is how one is embracing Dark Side knowing it's not the right way. Kylo wasn't part of Hux's speech to soldiers of the First Order. Kylo actually was against it on the Novelization and it reminded my of Vader and Alderaan and Tarkin. The other is moving away from it, what he had been doing all his for, trained for trying to do a good thing. Both struggling with decisions. Finn represents the way for Kylo.

For sure Finn will be against Kylo, given he'll likely rise throught the ranks in Resistance for his acts. What is even more interesting is how Kylo, Finn and Rey all unmasked themselves at some point. I could see them even working together.
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Re: Kylo/Ben and Finn as Foils

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Sat 24 Dec 2016 - 3:56

@DarthRen wrote:For sure Finn will be against Kylo, given he'll likely rise throught the ranks in Resistance for his acts. What is even more interesting is how Kylo, Finn and Rey all unmasked themselves at some point. I could see them even working together.
@DarthRen

If the Rey being captured at the end of VIII spoiler is true, and depending how Rey and Ren will develope through VIII, I can see them both going after her (or maybe randomly meeting at some point on the way). It'll be a battle of snark against snark though. ROFL
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Re: Kylo/Ben and Finn as Foils

Post by DarthRen on Sat 24 Dec 2016 - 4:59

@Rimfaxe96 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:For sure Finn will be against Kylo, given he'll likely rise throught the ranks in Resistance for his acts. What is even more interesting is how Kylo, Finn and Rey all unmasked themselves at some point. I could see them even working together.
@DarthRen

If the Rey being captured at the end of VIII spoiler is true, and depending how Rey and Ren will develope through VIII, I can see them both going after her (or maybe randomly meeting at some point on the way). It'll be a battle of snark against snark though. ROFL
@Rimfaxe96

Rey being captured? Isn't that from those fake leaks or something diffee? I might have missed it this info.

But yeah Kylo and Finn conversation would be.

Kylo: What you're doing here traitor?
Finn: Saving Rey from you and the First Order.
Kylo: Iam going to rescue her and not capture her. We're soulmates.
Finn: No, I'm going to rescue her. No, we're soulmates.
Kylo: I love her.
Finn: Not as much as I do and I met her before you.
Kylo: I can offer her to be her teacher and show her the ways of the Force.
Finn: Dark Side right? She won't be with you, she loves me.
Kylo: Let's and she'll decide.
Meanwhile Rey escaped. Guys, thanks for looking after me
Kylo: I was going to save you, but this one is arguing.
Finn: No. I was going to save you, not him.
Rey looking at them just my boys.
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Re: Kylo/Ben and Finn as Foils

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Sat 24 Dec 2016 - 6:23

@DarthRen wrote:Rey being captured? Isn't that from those fake leaks or something diffee? I might have missed it this info.

But yeah Kylo and Finn conversation would be.

Kylo: What you're doing here traitor?
Finn: Saving Rey from you and the First Order.
Kylo: Iam going to rescue her and not capture her. We're soulmates.
Finn: No, I'm going to rescue her. No, we're soulmates.
Kylo: I love her.
Finn: Not as much as I do and I met her before you.
Kylo: I can offer her to be her teacher and show her the ways of the Force.
Finn: Dark Side right? She won't be with you, she loves me.
Kylo: Let's and she'll decide.
Meanwhile Rey escaped. Guys, thanks for looking after me
Kylo: I was going to save you, but this one is arguing.
Finn: No. I was going to save you, not him.
Rey looking at them just my boys.

Don't know if they were confirmed fake, it just said that Rey was captured in a cell and Finn, Luke and C3PO were looking out into the distance (or something like that). I guess Rey being captured at some point could happen with the supposed speeder crash at the Dubrovnik location, but that might be temporarily only. No idea really, we haven't had enough spoilers of substance yet.

But yes, this is about how I'd imagine things would go if they do work together. ROFL
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Re: Kylo/Ben and Finn as Foils

Post by DarthRen on Sat 24 Dec 2016 - 6:41

@Rimfaxe96 wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:Rey being captured? Isn't that from those fake leaks or something diffee? I might have missed it this info.

But yeah Kylo and Finn conversation would be.

Kylo: What you're doing here traitor?
Finn: Saving Rey from you and the First Order.
Kylo: Iam going to rescue her and not capture her. We're soulmates.
Finn: No, I'm going to rescue her. No, we're soulmates.
Kylo: I love her.
Finn: Not as much as I do and I met her before you.
Kylo: I can offer her to be her teacher and show her the ways of the Force.
Finn: Dark Side right? She won't be with you, she loves me.
Kylo: Let's and she'll decide.
Meanwhile Rey escaped. Guys, thanks for looking after me
Kylo: I was going to save you, but this one is arguing.
Finn: No. I was going to save you, not him.
Rey looking at them just my boys.

Don't know if they were confirmed fake, it just said that Rey was captured in a cell and Finn, Luke and C3PO were looking out into the distance (or something like that). I guess Rey being captured at some point could happen with the supposed speeder crash at the Dubrovnik location, but that might be temporarily only. No idea really, we haven't had enough spoilers of substance yet.

But yes, this is about how I'd imagine things would go if they do work together. ROFL
@Rimfaxe96

There were many supposed leaks but Rey being captured or with Snoke or Kylo is very likely. These leaks on spoilers thread missed Kylo and Knights of Ren on Ach-To. From leak around May Kylo and Rey were supposed to he have conversation at Ach-To. We know Kylo and Knights of Ren will attack Luke and Rey. That means they've been defeated and Kylo is with them because don't think he'll have chat with Rey with Knights around and don't think Kylo would simply retreat just after the fight.
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Re: Kylo/Ben and Finn as Foils

Post by Rimfaxe96 on Sat 24 Dec 2016 - 6:51

@DarthRen wrote:There were many supposed leaks but Rey being captured or with Snoke or Kylo is very likely. These leaks on spoilers thread missed Kylo and Knights of Ren on Ach-To. From leak around May Kylo and Rey were supposed to he have conversation at Ach-To. We know Kylo and Knights of Ren will attack Luke and Rey. That means they've been defeated and Kylo is with them because don't think he'll have chat with Rey with Knights around and don't think Kylo would simply retreat just after the fight.
@DarthRen

Not to mention the crash-landing rumor - if that one's true, they have no choice but to work together somehow. and save Kylo from the furbies
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Re: Kylo/Ben and Finn as Foils

Post by Darth Dementor on Sat 24 Dec 2016 - 11:48

A rumoured leak I read had a failed assassination attempt on Leia spurs Finn on, with KMT alongside him, to find out who the assassin is and bring him in.

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Re: Kylo/Ben and Finn as Foils

Post by reylo1992 on Wed 28 Dec 2016 - 0:20

A wonderful comic about Kylo Ren & Finn's relationship: this is exactly how I feel about these two.

Source: http://sangamanga.tumblr.com/post/151907057350/a-short-comic-finn-and-kylo-ren-and-about-the

I would call them two halves of the same coin in the way that Finn's path and decisions may foreshadow both what we'll learn about Ben's path and decision in his past and what he'll do in the future. I also get the sense that one day these two may be on the same side and even work together toward the same goal:



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