AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by MyOnlyHope on Wed 15 Feb - 4:07

ZioRen wrote:If this is true, then once again Pablo's tweets are a real headscratcher. How do you know that this is a character's backstory and still act like they're not all that sympathetic or compare his situation to Rey and Finn's?
@ZioRen
Because tortured anti-heroes just aren't his cup of tea, simple as that. Preferring other kinds of characters is no more than a personal opinion on his part, and one that has absolutely zero bearing on a story that has been planned out a dozen years in advance. When it comes to expressing opinions, he's no different from any other fan.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by ZioRen on Wed 15 Feb - 4:24

MyOnlyHope wrote:
ZioRen wrote:If this is true, then once again Pablo's tweets are a real headscratcher. How do you know that this is a character's backstory and still act like they're not all that sympathetic or compare his situation to Rey and Finn's?
@ZioRen
Because tortured anti-heroes just aren't his cup of tea, simple as that. Preferring other kinds of characters is no more than a personal opinion on his part, and one that has absolutely zero bearing on a story that has been planned out a dozen years in advance. When it comes to expressing opinions, he's no different from any other fan.
@MyOnlyHope

I guess I just find it strange because even if I hated a character I wouldn't say that if I knew that was their backstory. Oh well, it is what it is.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed 15 Feb - 8:02

ZioRen wrote:
MyOnlyHope wrote:
ZioRen wrote:If this is true, then once again Pablo's tweets are a real headscratcher. How do you know that this is a character's backstory and still act like they're not all that sympathetic or compare his situation to Rey and Finn's?
@ZioRen
Because tortured anti-heroes just aren't his cup of tea, simple as that. Preferring other kinds of characters is no more than a personal opinion on his part, and one that has absolutely zero bearing on a story that has been planned out a dozen years in advance. When it comes to expressing opinions, he's no different from any other fan.
@MyOnlyHope

I guess I just find it strange because even if I hated a character I wouldn't say that if I knew that was their backstory. Oh well, it is what it is.
@ZioRen

I think it might be his resentment of JJ/TFA talking.

I agree with you, though: Pablo wasn't just stating he doesn't like tortured anti-heroes (though he said that too), but he was flat-out morally comparing Kylo with Finn and with Rey who was "raised by sand", which seems just... wrong. What's worse, being "raised by sand" or having your mind and soul messed with from the womb? You can't compare them. Both are bad.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised that they still seem to be following through with Kylo's extremely troubled past. I wonder at this insistence that his personal accountability not be reduced by the plot in any way, though, because to me the question is: if he was targeted from the womb, if he grew up with that darkness always weighing him down, how much agency does he really have? He never had a choice, his fall was pre-ordained no matter how long he tried to resist it. Mentally, he must be a wreck (hello, mental illness metaphors).

To me that isn't much different from being brainwashed or put under a spell or corrupted by a mask or whatever else. One of the reasons I've always liked the idea of Kylo having a genuinely noble goal is that it does give him personal accountability in making extremely hard, and even misguided, decisions for the sake of something he truly believes to be right. But being victimised since before he was born does make him a victim. And perhaps that's as it should be: our protagonist is a woman, so this time we might actually get a princess rescuing her prince. I'd be all for that, frankly. I've always enjoyed Tam Lin retellings, for example.

I do enjoy stories where tortured anti-heroes grapple with guilt and have to face their terrible mistakes in order to finally make the right decisions, but (a) generally such anti-heroes are the protagonists of their own stories, so we get to see their moral growth from their point of view, and (b) I have a really hard time thematically reconciling someone whose life was ruined to begin with with being a poster boy for personal accountability.

Not that (b) doesn't happen in fiction. It does. It just always leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Because in this case, if Snoke/darkness was really disturbing him his entire life, we're no longer talking about "something traumatic happened and set him on a wrong path" but "innocent child was picked out for what amounts to life-long mental torture", so pulling a "yeah, but at least he wasn't raised by sand, so there" about something like that seems really iffy to me.

ETA: Just to clarify, this post isn't about Pablo or about anybody here who wants Kylo to have chosen evil so that he is fully accountable for his actions. I just used that Pablo comment as a starting point for some random musings Razz
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 15 Feb - 8:56

I'm repulsed by Snoke now. We have a confirmation that he is a child predator.

See, I would be fine without a complete redemption for Ben Solo. I'd be okay if he sacrificed himself for the greater good and all. But after reading these spoilers, I'm sad for him. He never had a choice. He probably doesn't even know what happiness is, he is familiar with pain and a creature tormenting him FOREVER.

This is terrible. I want him to have happiness, peace, and a new chance.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 15 Feb - 9:03

Darth Dingbat wrote:
ZioRen wrote:
MyOnlyHope wrote:
ZioRen wrote:If this is true, then once again Pablo's tweets are a real headscratcher. How do you know that this is a character's backstory and still act like they're not all that sympathetic or compare his situation to Rey and Finn's?
@ZioRen
Because tortured anti-heroes just aren't his cup of tea, simple as that. Preferring other kinds of characters is no more than a personal opinion on his part, and one that has absolutely zero bearing on a story that has been planned out a dozen years in advance. When it comes to expressing opinions, he's no different from any other fan.
@MyOnlyHope

I guess I just find it strange because even if I hated a character I wouldn't say that if I knew that was their backstory. Oh well, it is what it is.
@ZioRen

I think it might be his resentment of JJ/TFA talking.

I agree with you, though: Pablo wasn't just stating he doesn't like tortured anti-heroes (though he said that too), but he was flat-out morally comparing Kylo with Finn and with Rey who was "raised by sand", which seems just... wrong. What's worse, being "raised by sand" or having your mind and soul messed with from the womb? You can't compare them. Both are bad.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised that they still seem to be following through with Kylo's extremely troubled past. I wonder at this insistence that his personal accountability not be reduced by the plot in any way, though, because to me the question is: if he was targeted from the womb, if he grew up with that darkness always weighing him down, how much agency does he really have? He never had a choice, his fall was pre-ordained no matter how long he tried to resist it. Mentally, he must be a wreck (hello, mental illness metaphors).

To me that isn't much different from being brainwashed or put under a spell or corrupted by a mask or whatever else. One of the reasons I've always liked the idea of Kylo having a genuinely noble goal is that it does give him personal accountability in making extremely hard, and even misguided, decisions for the sake of something he truly believes to be right. But being victimised since before he was born does make him a victim. And perhaps that's as it should be: our protagonist is a woman, so this time we might actually get a princess rescuing her prince. I'd be all for that, frankly. I've always enjoyed Tam Lin retellings, for example.

I do enjoy stories where tortured anti-heroes grapple with guilt and have to face their terrible mistakes in order to finally make the right decisions, but (a) generally such anti-heroes are the protagonists of their own stories, so we get to see their moral growth from their point of view, and (b) I have a really hard time thematically reconciling someone whose life was ruined to begin with with being a poster boy for personal accountability.

Not that (b) doesn't happen in fiction. It does. It just always leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Because in this case, if Snoke/darkness was really disturbing him his entire life, we're no longer talking about "something traumatic happened and set him on a wrong path" but "innocent child was picked out for what amounts to life-long mental torture", so pulling a "yeah, but at least he wasn't raised by sand, so there" about something like that seems really iffy to me.

ETA: Just to clarify, this post isn't about Pablo or about anybody here who wants Kylo to have chosen evil so that he is fully accountable for his actions. I just used that Pablo comment as a starting point for some random musings Razz
@Darth Dingbat

I agree with everything you say here.  If he is being tormented in the womb, good grief, it practically is just a matter of "when" he falls, not 'if".  It's like putting a young kid on hard drugs.  The addiction will be near impossible to kick at all times.  And if this is where they are going, then the story becomes much less about redemption and much more about rehabilitation.  It's about the guy who had a ton of odds against him finally getting his mental illness/drug addiction/toxic controller (all covered by Snoke and/or the dark side in the GFFA) under control and actually getting clear-headed and to start having moments of generosity/success/healing/greatness/integration that takes him out of the morass that was his previous life. (This actually may also play into a reverse Anakin ... who went from a clear head to dark morass ... maybe Ben starts out in the morass and gets to clear?)

And speaking of morass, I doubt that Kylo will be fully brainwashed.  There might be trigger moments, but basically in the end IMO he is going to  have a kind of oppression that clouds his thinking off and on.  It sounds like for a long time he kept that at bay and made non-catastrophic decisions ... but then at some point, he didn't keep it at bay and he made some bad decisions.  The grey area and accountability might be in the nuances of the moment that where he let the darkness overpower the fighting spirit against the darkness. 

Further, I have always agreed with you about him having some kind of mission/purpose/self-sacrificial goal, no matter how misguided, and this is where I think "despair" will come into play.  There may come a time that he is so worn down by his conflicted nature and/or by Snoke and is so acutely aware of his darkness (something that I think he would be ashamed of being taught by Luke) that he comes to a point where he thinks he's cursed, disgusting being, so why shouldn't it be him who does the dirty work to take Snoke out or what have you ... sort of like a "Well I am damned anyway, so let me be on the front line, let me do the disgusting work" kind of thing ... and that despair, that kind of existential depression, that not fighting back hard enough ... that's what could really, really haunt him in this scenario.  Not only was he messed up, he dropped the ball and made misguided choices when there could have been better options that he might have seen if not for his self-hate and despair.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by BastilaBey on Wed 15 Feb - 9:03

ZioRen wrote:If this is true, then once again Pablo's tweets are a real headscratcher. How do you know that this is a character's backstory and still act like he's not all that sympathetic or compare his situation to Rey and Finn's?
@ZioRen

I think it's just because Pablo can't spoil future content, he can just comment on the story as is. And while many of us obviously picked up on the predatory subtext with Snoke, it wasn't the general perception of what was going on. Kylo's humanizing backstory is ahead of us. Even these extracts from Empire's End don't confirm it, because it's ambiguous. I mean it's going to be Snoke because who else it could be, but if one of us asked Pablo? No way would he be able to say so.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by SkyStar on Wed 15 Feb - 9:30

I have this feeling Pablo just wanted to clear out a wrong impression that Ben's fall was Leia's and Hans fault and they didn't care enough. Because we know it is far from truth.

Poor Leia. Its so sad to read her struggling with these issues, while feeling empathy for Han and his boredom, while dreaming about Luke being there to comfort her. Always having a hope.
It will make me utterly sad, if Leia and Ben won't see each other in TLJ.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by Irina de France on Wed 15 Feb - 13:15

Okay, after reading what you guys have been speculating about Rey's origins, all I can say is...

MIND. BLOWN.



But yeah, all that business with baby Ben... I cannot imagine for the life of me how he could not be saved.

Spoiler:
And that tidbit about baby Ben who only stops crying when Han picks him up...

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 15 Feb - 13:56

SkyStar wrote:I have this feeling Pablo just wanted to clear out a wrong impression that Ben's fall was Leia's and Hans fault and they didn't care enough. Because we know it is far from truth.

Poor Leia. Its so sad to read her struggling with these issues, while feeling empathy for Han and his boredom, while dreaming about Luke being there to comfort her. Always having a hope.
It will make me utterly sad, if Leia and Ben won't see each other in TLJ.
@SkyStar

No, it's not their fault.
But...they definitely weren't around enough. That's canon. And if Leia was aware of the threat to her son while he was still inside her, she should have at least tried to be there for him. This was a baby - the most innocent soul possible. He never had a chance.
Kylo Ren isn't a villain, he's a victim of nearly thirty years of psychological child abuse.

I really want him to be saved. Especially now.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by nemapasara on Wed 15 Feb - 14:23


I agree with everything you say here.  If he is being tormented in the womb, good grief, it practically is just a matter of "when" he falls, not 'if".  It's like putting a young kid on hard drugs.  The addiction will be near impossible to kick at all times.  And if this is where they are going, then the story becomes much less about redemption and much more about rehabilitation.  It's about the guy who had a ton of odds against him finally getting his mental illness/drug addiction/toxic controller (all covered by Snoke and/or the dark side in the GFFA) under control and actually getting clear-headed and to start having moments of generosity/success/healing/greatness/integration that takes him out of the morass that was his previous life. (This actually may also play into a reverse Anakin ... who went from a clear head to dark morass ... maybe Ben starts out in the morass and gets to clear?)

And speaking of morass, I doubt that Kylo will be fully brainwashed.  There might be trigger moments, but basically in the end IMO he is going to  have a kind of oppression that clouds his thinking off and on.  It sounds like for a long time he kept that at bay and made non-catastrophic decisions ... but then at some point, he didn't keep it at bay and he made some bad decisions.  The grey area and accountability might be in the nuances of the moment that where he let the darkness overpower the fighting spirit against the darkness. 

Further, I have always agreed with you about him having some kind of mission/purpose/self-sacrificial goal, no matter how misguided, and this is where I think "despair" will come into play.  There may come a time that he is so worn down by his conflicted nature and/or by Snoke and is so acutely aware of his darkness (something that I think he would be ashamed of being taught by Luke) that he comes to a point where he thinks he's cursed, disgusting being, so why shouldn't it be him who does the dirty work to take Snoke out or what have you ... sort of like a "Well I am damned anyway, so let me be on the front line, let me do the disgusting work" kind of thing ... and that despair, that kind of existential depression, that not fighting back hard enough ... that's what could really, really haunt him in this scenario.  Not only was he messed up, he dropped the ball and made misguided choices when there could have been better options that he might have seen if not for his self-hate and despair.

That's exactly what it feels like. I mean, the line about
Spoiler:
how he's thrust with a vein of darkness
reminds me of shooting a needle of heroin in your veins, it's really messed up.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 15 Feb - 14:28

BastilaBey wrote:
ZioRen wrote:If this is true, then once again Pablo's tweets are a real headscratcher. How do you know that this is a character's backstory and still act like he's not all that sympathetic or compare his situation to Rey and Finn's?
@ZioRen

I think it's just because Pablo can't spoil future content, he can just comment on the story as is. And while many of us obviously picked up on the predatory subtext with Snoke, it wasn't the general perception of what was going on. Kylo's humanizing backstory is ahead of us. Even these extracts from Empire's End don't confirm it, because it's ambiguous. I mean it's going to be Snoke because who else it could be, but if one of us asked Pablo? No way would he be able to say so.
@BastilaBey

Exactly - I sometimes suspect Pablo is deliberately trying to 'up' Kylo's 'evilness' so to speak in order to play down rumours of his redemption,hence the scenes where he was shown with some sympathy - Rey seeing Snoke's shadow falling over him as a child, the scene on the Falcon - being removed from TFA.

At the same time I think they've realised they've perhaps painted him a bit 'too black'- hence Empire's End now showing him as a long time abuse victim.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 15 Feb - 14:55

motherofpearl1 wrote:
BastilaBey wrote:
ZioRen wrote:If this is true, then once again Pablo's tweets are a real headscratcher. How do you know that this is a character's backstory and still act like he's not all that sympathetic or compare his situation to Rey and Finn's?
@ZioRen

I think it's just because Pablo can't spoil future content, he can just comment on the story as is. And while many of us obviously picked up on the predatory subtext with Snoke, it wasn't the general perception of what was going on. Kylo's humanizing backstory is ahead of us. Even these extracts from Empire's End don't confirm it, because it's ambiguous. I mean it's going to be Snoke because who else it could be, but if one of us asked Pablo? No way would he be able to say so.
@BastilaBey

Exactly - I sometimes suspect Pablo is deliberately trying to 'up' Kylo's 'evilness' so to speak in order to play down rumours of his redemption,hence the scenes where he was shown with some sympathy - Rey seeing Snoke's shadow falling over him as a child, the scene on the Falcon - being removed from TFA.

At the same time I think they've realised they've perhaps painted him a bit 'too black'- hence Empire's End now showing him as a long time abuse victim.
@motherofpearl1

I agree.

Man, I feel so bad for Kylo right now. Seriously. This is messed up, and I want Snoke to pay for what he did.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by Irina de France on Wed 15 Feb - 15:04

Okay, but guys, think about it for a minute: Ben Solo gets influenced by Snoke ever since he was in Leia's womb, and he resists the call to the Dark Side for twenty-three years. Yeah, you got it. Twenty-three years. And for reasons still unexplained, he falls.

But then, who makes him feel the call to the Light again and feel compassionate, as per Snoke's words?

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by SkyStar on Wed 15 Feb - 15:12

Piper Maru wrote:
motherofpearl1 wrote:
BastilaBey wrote:
ZioRen wrote:If this is true, then once again Pablo's tweets are a real headscratcher. How do you know that this is a character's backstory and still act like he's not all that sympathetic or compare his situation to Rey and Finn's?
@ZioRen

I think it's just because Pablo can't spoil future content, he can just comment on the story as is. And while many of us obviously picked up on the predatory subtext with Snoke, it wasn't the general perception of what was going on. Kylo's humanizing backstory is ahead of us. Even these extracts from Empire's End don't confirm it, because it's ambiguous. I mean it's going to be Snoke because who else it could be, but if one of us asked Pablo? No way would he be able to say so.
@BastilaBey

Exactly - I sometimes suspect Pablo is deliberately trying to 'up' Kylo's 'evilness' so to speak in order to play down rumours of his redemption,hence the scenes where he was shown with some sympathy - Rey seeing Snoke's shadow falling over him as a child, the scene on the Falcon - being removed from TFA.

At the same time I think they've realised they've perhaps painted him a bit 'too black'- hence Empire's End now showing him as a long time abuse victim.
@motherofpearl1

I agree.

Man, I feel so bad for Kylo right now. Seriously. This is messed up, and I want Snoke to pay for what he did.
@Piper Maru

I really liked this quote by JJ Abrams "As a father, as a friend to people who have children, I know what it’s like to see struggle, to be part of struggle. I know how painful it can be. I know how real it is. And this is, of course, an insane extrapolated version."

And that makes me quite sure Ben Solo will be saved - they care too much for him.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 15 Feb - 15:27

Irina de France wrote:Okay, but guys, think about it for a minute: Ben Solo gets influenced by Snoke ever since he was in Leia's womb, and he resists the call to the Dark Side for twenty-three years. Yeah, you got it. Twenty-three years. And for reasons still unexplained, he falls.

But then, who makes him feel the call to the Light again and feel compassionate, as per Snoke's words?

@Irina de France

I think Snoke's afraid of Rey.
Afraid because he knows here is someone who could very possibly break his hold on Kylo - and then he would be like an abused chained animal whose chain had been cut off.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by vaderito on Wed 15 Feb - 15:33

he's not afraid enough or he would have never suggested that Kylo brings her to him. But anyway, the fact that he suggested so also kills "cousins" or "siblings" because Snoke knows that familial sentimentality caused Vader's fall. So the twist have to be that different kind of love broke Snoke's spell, not "we are related, take that sucker".
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 15 Feb - 15:46

Let's face it...Ben's family let him down BIG TIME. And I actually blame Luke and Leia more - they, unlike Han, are Force sensitives and Leia was aware of the danger her son was in before his birth. So, the ground seems set for Rey to be the one who redeems him. I have a strong feeling that she'll find out about Snoke's influence on him from before his birth. I just hope they don't chicken out of mentioning it in TLJ the way they cut some of Kylo's more sympathetic scenes from TFA.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by vaderito on Wed 15 Feb - 15:57

motherofpearl1 wrote:Let's face it...Ben's family let him down BIG TIME. And I actually blame Luke and Leia more - they, unlike Han, are Force sensitives and Leia was aware of the danger her son was in before his birth. So, the ground seems set for Rey to be the one who redeems him. I have a strong feeling that she'll find out about Snoke's influence on him from before his birth. I just hope they don't chicken out of mentioning it in TLJ the way they cut some of Kylo's more sympathetic scenes from TFA.
@motherofpearl1

She doesn't seem to be aware of the danger. She has bad dreams that seem like just that, dreams. She cannot sense what her unborn son can. So she isn't aware. She may have an uneasy feeling, but that could be explained by anxiety and there are many reasons for anxiety.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by teltaru on Wed 15 Feb - 15:58

I never thought "since the beginning" would turn out to be this literal.
Spoiler:
Who is out there, who is watching us? Hands reach for her, hands of shadow, lifting her up, reaching for her throat, her wrists, her stomach -
Inside, the child kicks. She feels her baby turning inside, right-side, up and down, struggling to find his bearings, trying so hard to find his way free of her. It's not time, she thinks. Just a little longer.
Could this be a direct parallel to Leia's conversation with Han in the TFA novel about Snoke watching Ben? It almost seems to obvious.
Spoiler:
The baby turns inside her again, troubled by something she cannot feel and cannot yet understand.
If it really is Snoke messing with unborn Ben, this is probably the most chilling line. It implies that Leia is oblivious to the danger her child is in- not that I blame her, who would expect such a thing- and that the pain that made Ben break down in front of his father in TFA had already been there to some extent even before he was born. I almost can't believe that they would actually go there.

What do you think? Is the darkness Leia senses all Snoke, or rather the Light & Dark duality that Ben is described to be a focal point of, a mixture of both perhaps? I can't make my mind up.

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by CienaRee on Wed 15 Feb - 16:08

teltaru wrote:I never thought "since the beginning" would turn out to be this literal.
Spoiler:
Who is out there, who is watching us? Hands reach for her, hands of shadow, lifting her up, reaching for her throat, her wrists, her stomach -
Inside, the child kicks. She feels her baby turning inside, right-side, up and down, struggling to find his bearings, trying so hard to find his way free of her. It's not time, she thinks. Just a little longer.
Could this be a direct parallel to Leia's conversation with Han in the TFA novel about Snoke watching Ben? It almost seems to obvious.
Spoiler:
The baby turns inside her again, troubled by something she cannot feel and cannot yet understand.
If it really is Snoke messing with unborn Ben, this is probably the most chilling line. It implies that Leia is oblivious to the danger her child is in- not that I blame her, who would expect such a thing- and that the pain that made Ben break down in front of his father in TFA had already been there to some extent even before he was born. I almost can't believe that they would actually go there.

What do you think? Is the darkness Leia senses all Snoke, or rather the Light & Dark duality that Ben is described to be a focal point of, a mixture of both perhaps? I can't make my mind up.
@teltaru

I think it could be but  I think that's deffinatly Snoke messing with unborn baby Ben in the first paragraph it also fits with the TFA novalization where Leia says that Snoke was there from the beggining and JJ's commentary about Snoke tagetting Ben as a child and originally the vision was goign to ahve Snoke with young Ben in Rey's vision so I deffinatly think Snoke's a child rprdator and it's absolutely horrifying. and makes you understand better how Ben ended up the way he is since Snoke's been messing with his mind since he was basically still a fetus.
Btw,this is Ben unrelated info but I find the additional information on the Acolytes really interesting:
Spoiler:

Something we forgot to post from the acolytes interlude. It's a description of how they view the force: "As are all living things. All are caught in the river of power that is the Force, trapped by its currents. Only those who work the dark side of the Force are capable of changing those currents; they are riverbreakers. They do not surrender to fate. They are it's foes."


Last edited by CienaRee on Wed 15 Feb - 16:22; edited 2 times in total

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by Irina de France on Wed 15 Feb - 16:08

teltaru wrote:I never thought "since the beginning" would turn out to be this literal.
Spoiler:
Who is out there, who is watching us? Hands reach for her, hands of shadow, lifting her up, reaching for her throat, her wrists, her stomach -
Inside, the child kicks. She feels her baby turning inside, right-side, up and down, struggling to find his bearings, trying so hard to find his way free of her. It's not time, she thinks. Just a little longer.
Could this be a direct parallel to Leia's conversation with Han in the TFA novel about Snoke watching Ben? It almost seems to obvious.
Spoiler:
The baby turns inside her again, troubled by something she cannot feel and cannot yet understand.
If it really is Snoke messing with unborn Ben, this is probably the most chilling line. It implies that Leia is oblivious to the danger her child is in- not that I blame her, who would expect such a thing- and that the pain that made Ben break down in front of his father in TFA had already been there to some extent even before he was born. I almost can't believe that they would actually go there.

What do you think? Is the darkness Leia senses all Snoke, or rather the Light & Dark duality that Ben is described to be a focal point of, a mixture of both perhaps? I can't make my mind up.
@teltaru

From what I understand from the few excerpts, it seems as if Leia definitely senses there is something wrong, but Luke is giving her a whole other explanation that turns out to be far away from the truth. And that proves to be fatal... Sad

So I'd consider Leia and Luke as blissfully unaware.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by vaderito on Wed 15 Feb - 16:12

@teltaru This is pure intrusion, not the baby's duality:

Spoiler:
The baby turns inside her again, troubled by something she cannot feel and cannot yet understand.

Also

Spoiler:
when she is choked in her dream, she thinks the baby's kicking because he's heading into premature birth whereas, in the light of the sentence above, he tried to escape whatever was strangling them. He feels it stronger than she.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by CienaRee on Wed 15 Feb - 16:12

Irina de France wrote:
teltaru wrote:I never thought "since the beginning" would turn out to be this literal.
Spoiler:
Who is out there, who is watching us? Hands reach for her, hands of shadow, lifting her up, reaching for her throat, her wrists, her stomach -
Inside, the child kicks. She feels her baby turning inside, right-side, up and down, struggling to find his bearings, trying so hard to find his way free of her. It's not time, she thinks. Just a little longer.
Could this be a direct parallel to Leia's conversation with Han in the TFA novel about Snoke watching Ben? It almost seems to obvious.
Spoiler:
The baby turns inside her again, troubled by something she cannot feel and cannot yet understand.
If it really is Snoke messing with unborn Ben, this is probably the most chilling line. It implies that Leia is oblivious to the danger her child is in- not that I blame her, who would expect such a thing- and that the pain that made Ben break down in front of his father in TFA had already been there to some extent even before he was born. I almost can't believe that they would actually go there.

What do you think? Is the darkness Leia senses all Snoke, or rather the Light & Dark duality that Ben is described to be a focal point of, a mixture of both perhaps? I can't make my mind up.
@teltaru

From what I understand from the few excerpts, it seems as if Leia definitely senses there is something wrong, but Luke is giving her a whole other explanation that turns out to be far away from the truth. And that proves to be fatal... Sad

So I'd consider Leia and Luke as blissfully unaware.
@Irina de France

Yup,and that's why the justifcation that Ben couldn't have fallen to the DS because he had a loving family.Yes,Leia,Han and Luke did want to help him but they just couldn't understand the ceverity of the situation and how to handle it.Add in,han and leia's stormy marriage and different goals and you have a recepy for disaster.
Honestly this is so much worse than Anakin.I mean in the comics you gain a better understanding of Plapatine's manipulations on Anakin over the years but even that isn't as chilling as the Ben-Snoke situation.

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by BastilaBey on Wed 15 Feb - 16:15

This is why Ben's lineage is a curse, not just a privilege. I know much of the anti narrative is around 'he had everything growing up, finn and rey had nothing!' But it's not that simple, especially when the weight of Vader's legacy is very real in this universe. It's something luke and leia struggle with, and it makes sense for leia's son to as well. He didn't find out until his 20s that he was the grandson of an evil Sith lord, but was being targeted for that very reason before he was even born. It's horrifying. But we were right to pick up on the 'cursed prince is rescued by the heroine with humble origins' framing of TFA.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by Irina de France on Wed 15 Feb - 16:17

BastilaBey wrote:This is why Ben's lineage is a curse, not just a privilege. I know much of the anti narrative is around 'he had everything growing up, finn and rey had nothing!' But it's not that simple, especially when the weight of Vader's legacy is very real in this universe. It's something luke and leia struggle with, and it makes sense for leia's son to as well. He didn't find out until his 20s that he was the grandson of an evil Sith lord, but was being targeted for that very reason before he was even born. It's horrifying. But we were right to pick up on the 'cursed prince is rescued by the heroine with humble origins' framing of TFA.
@BastilaBey

And here is yet another day in the "We were right all along, suck it antis" series...
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