AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by ReyofLightSide on Sat 25 Feb - 3:32

I just started the book.

For Rae  
spolier:
her being Finn's mother is an interesting theory. Or would she be too old to be Captain Phasma? And yes, why so much with Rae/Rey/Raeh??Are we sure she couldn't be Rey's mom? Maybe Rey calls herself that because she has a memory of her mom being called Rae?
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by AppleCrumble122 on Sat 25 Feb - 3:36

ReyofLightSide wrote:I just started the book.

For Rae  [spoiler="spolier"]her being Finn's mother is an interesting theory. Or would she be too old to be Captain Phasma? And yes, why so much with Rae/Rey/Raeh??[ Are we sure she couldn't be Rey's mom? Maybe Rey calls herself that because she has a memory of her mom being called Rae?/spoiler]
@ReyofLightSide

Interesting!

Spoiler:
I was thinking she could be Finn's mother this morning. It would certainly make it tragic and make sense considering the whole "Empire needs children" stuff. WTH
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by Irina de France on Sat 25 Feb - 14:18

AppleCrumble122 wrote:
ReyofLightSide wrote:I just started the book.

For Rae  [spoiler="spolier"]her being Finn's mother is an interesting theory. Or would she be too old to be Captain Phasma? And yes, why so much with Rae/Rey/Raeh??[ Are we sure she couldn't be Rey's mom? Maybe Rey calls herself that because she has a memory of her mom being called Rae?/spoiler]
@ReyofLightSide

Interesting!

Spoiler:
I was thinking she could be Finn's mother this morning. It would certainly make it tragic and make sense considering the whole "Empire needs children" stuff. WTH
@AppleCrumble122

Spoiler:
Well, that could definitely explain why Finn is Phasma's favorite...
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by IoJovi on Sat 25 Feb - 14:21

Irina de France wrote:
AppleCrumble122 wrote:
ReyofLightSide wrote:I just started the book.

For Rae  [spoiler="spolier"]her being Finn's mother is an interesting theory. Or would she be too old to be Captain Phasma? And yes, why so much with Rae/Rey/Raeh??[ Are we sure she couldn't be Rey's mom? Maybe Rey calls herself that because she has a memory of her mom being called Rae?/spoiler]
@ReyofLightSide

Interesting!

Spoiler:
I was thinking she could be Finn's mother this morning. It would certainly make it tragic and make sense considering the whole "Empire needs children" stuff. WTH
@AppleCrumble122

Spoiler:
Well, that could definitely explain why Finn is Phasma's favorite...
@Irina de France

Spoiler:
Funny, I always picture Phasma as white and looking like Gwendolyn Christie, but we actually don't know this to be the case, do we. Interesting...

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by Irina de France on Sat 25 Feb - 14:29

IoJovi wrote:
Irina de France wrote:
AppleCrumble122 wrote:
ReyofLightSide wrote:I just started the book.

For Rae  [spoiler="spolier"]her being Finn's mother is an interesting theory. Or would she be too old to be Captain Phasma? And yes, why so much with Rae/Rey/Raeh??[ Are we sure she couldn't be Rey's mom? Maybe Rey calls herself that because she has a memory of her mom being called Rae?/spoiler]
@ReyofLightSide

Interesting!

Spoiler:
I was thinking she could be Finn's mother this morning. It would certainly make it tragic and make sense considering the whole "Empire needs children" stuff. WTH
@AppleCrumble122

Spoiler:
Well, that could definitely explain why Finn is Phasma's favorite...
@Irina de France

Spoiler:
Funny, I always picture Phasma as white and looking like Gwendolyn Christie, but we actually don't know this to be the case, do we. Interesting...
@IoJovi

Spoiler:
I mean, I think it *could* be a possibility Phasma is Rae Sloane in disguise, but to be honest, considering Rae Sloane is black, I'd be a bit uneasy to hire a white actress to play her for the whole time she's wearing a helmet... Not to mention it's honestly a waste of Gwendoline Christie... I don't know, I think it'd just be more appropriate and respectful for everyone that Rae is Finn's mother who got killed off maybe because Snoke thought she was in the way (like honestly, I can totally see Snoke ordering a younger Hux and the feral children to get rid of Rae), and it's entirely possible Phasma might have been close to Rae and might have promised her to take care of Finn... in her own way.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by IoJovi on Sat 25 Feb - 14:36

Irina de France wrote:
IoJovi wrote:
Irina de France wrote:
AppleCrumble122 wrote:
ReyofLightSide wrote:I just started the book.

For Rae  [spoiler="spolier"]her being Finn's mother is an interesting theory. Or would she be too old to be Captain Phasma? And yes, why so much with Rae/Rey/Raeh??[ Are we sure she couldn't be Rey's mom? Maybe Rey calls herself that because she has a memory of her mom being called Rae?/spoiler]
@ReyofLightSide

Interesting!

Spoiler:
I was thinking she could be Finn's mother this morning. It would certainly make it tragic and make sense considering the whole "Empire needs children" stuff. WTH
@AppleCrumble122

Spoiler:
Well, that could definitely explain why Finn is Phasma's favorite...
@Irina de France

Spoiler:
Funny, I always picture Phasma as white and looking like Gwendolyn Christie, but we actually don't know this to be the case, do we. Interesting...
@IoJovi

Spoiler:
I mean, I think it *could* be a possibility Phasma is Rae Sloane in disguise, but to be honest, considering Rae Sloane is black, I'd be a bit uneasy to hire a white actress to play her for the whole time she's wearing a helmet... Not to mention it's honestly a waste of Gwendoline Christie... I don't know, I think it'd just be more appropriate and respectful for everyone that Rae is Finn's mother who got killed off maybe because Snoke thought she was in the way (like honestly, I can totally see Snoke ordering a younger Hux and the feral children to get rid of Rae), and it's entirely possible Phasma might have been close to Rae and might have promised her to take care of Finn... in her own way.
@Irina de France

Spoiler:
You're so right about that, and to be completely honest I hadn't thought of that aspect. Given that, I hope it's not the case now.

On another note, I'm now picturing Finn strapped to a chair while Phasma, getting all up close and personal, removes her helmet for him. Please help me... lol!

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 25 Feb - 16:29

Okay..
I'm not sure how this works, if I'm doing something wrong by reposting from someone's blog so delete it if I've offended someone but...

This is so beautiful especially post Empire's End:

https://kylosroboarm.tumblr.com/post/156429776378/gwendolinechristie-bring-him-home
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by Irina de France on Sat 25 Feb - 18:13

motherofpearl1 wrote:Okay..
I'm not sure how this works, if I'm doing something wrong by reposting from someone's blog so delete it if I've offended someone but...

This is so beautiful especially post Empire's End:

https://kylosroboarm.tumblr.com/post/156429776378/gwendolinechristie-bring-him-home
@motherofpearl1

Man, and a while ago, I thought "Bring Him Home" was such a fitting song for Han in TFA...

Ugh. Just thinking about it makes me cry.

It reminds me of how in Les Misérables, there's a fan theory that God had decided every single barricade boy (including Marius) was supposed to die, and when Jean Valjean sings "Bring Him Home", he's actually asking God to take Marius' place so he and Cosette can live happily ever after.



It becomes the ultimate sacrifice for Valjean, who becomes lonely when Cosette leaves him to marry Marius. The eve of Cosette's wedding, he is dying (and we are mysteriously not given any reason, hence the theory) and cannot attend the ceremony, but Marius discovers thanks to Thénardier that Valjean was the one who saved him that night. Cosette and Marius rush to Valjean's bedside, and he gets to die peacefully.



The parallels are pretty strong, especially that Rey is basically Cosette in the GFFA...
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 25 Feb - 18:37

All credit to the OP, and man,it gets me. I can't hear that song now without thinking of it.

Iknow Han can't be a 'Force ghost' but it'dbe wonderful if he came back as an actual ghost at the end to witness his son's redemption

Not a dry eye in the house......... No
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by panki on Sat 25 Feb - 22:05

General thoughts on Empire's End:

Spoiler:


1. I think the source of the darkness will be some ancient mystical group like the sorcerers of Rhand from legends who could want to destroy the Force and the galaxy... they can see the future, have immense dark side powers and can mind control people from great distances. This group is based in the Unknown Regions in legends and are a brutal death cult. They also had access to ancient Rakatan technology and artifacts which they sold to collectors. I won't be surprised if Snoke is one of the members of this group.

2. I wonder if Palpatine's spirit is still around and trying to return to the world of the living. (its interesting that Ian McDiarmid is a special guest at SWC this year).

Rax says the following lines to Yupe Tashu before making him wear the sith mask, hold the staff and holocron and then throwing him into the depths of the planet...while Rax doesn't believe in Palpatine and Yupe Tashu's mystical practices, Palpatine definitely knew events from the future since he foresaw the outcast (Rae Sloane) remaining.

“You must be clothed in the raiment of darkness,” Rax says. “The mantle of the dark side is yours to wear, at least for a time. At least until we can find Palpatine and revivify him, bringing his soul back to flesh anew.”

3. The latest Poe Dameron comic makes it clear that the resources of the FO don't belong to Hux, Phasma or even Snoke....so who do they belong to? This question is answered in books like High Noon on Jakku where we see credits being siphoned off the republic by criminal elements for some unknown purpose....also, we see the underworld gangs trying to instigate war in Empire's End so that they can benefit. Empire's End mentions the union of two gangs- Red Key and Black Sun. Red Key had already infiltrated new republic politics in Empire's End and Black Sun had star destroyer size ships even during the clone wars.

Red Key + Black Sun = the colour scheme of the FO. The FO's symbol is an inversion of the black sun.

Black Sun (Red Key group symbol isn't available)

First Order

Also, the FO includes criminal elements like Agent Terex in their senior ranks, who run their illegal rackets independent of the FO. All this means that Rae Sloane's dream of "her Empire" would be destroyed by criminal and lawless elements interfering.

4. I'm not going into Rey's lineage but it is possible that she was being considered a vessel to house Palpatine or some other death sith Lord's spirit....and the evidence for this is that Rey could hear an ancient voice asking her to kill Kylo on SKB....Palpatine heard this sort of voice....Vader, Rax etc never heard this voice....infact, Rax thought he was crazy for claiming to hear voices.

Rae Sloane was lonely and without anything left other than her Empire....maybe she formed an attachment to this little girl and tried to save her by flying her to Jakku (being the nearest point to the Unknown Regions) and but got killed shortly after....maybe this girl reminded her of Adea Rite (Life Debt) and she didn't want another young girl to be manipulated and killed....Rey's memories of a mother stroking her hair could have been Rae Sloane and maybe that is why she remembers the name Rey. I think Rae Sloane might have asked Unkar to take this girl to safety but Unkar got greedy and kept her as a slave instead.

This would be similar to the legends story of Ederlahth Pallopides, Palpatine's grand niece who was supported by Admiral Betl Oxtroe but the Admiral was assassinated by imperials who wanted to continue fighting the new republic in legends and not compromise. Betl Oxtroe was very similar to Rae Sloane both in story and personality.

5. Is Unkar into kidnapping children for the FO? After Niima the Hutt died, someone else must have taken up the job and Unkar seems unethical enough to indulge in such stuff.

6. I wonder if Wookies are connected to the force and that is the "song" they hear.....TCW was supposed to include episodes where wookies could communicate with the spirit of the trees in the Kashyyk forests and get their help for battle....so Chewie and his son Waroo might be somewhat force sensitive after all (not a force user but force sensitive)...I wonder what happened to Waroo by the time of TFA.

7. Mind control seems to play a big role in Empire's End... for instance, the mind chips in Brentin Wexley and other rebel prisoners that turned them into assassins, the feral children who were wild but obedient, Niima's slaves, Kiza being controlled by her mask etc. (I can go into other canon exaples from other books and comics but the list will be too long)

They are definitely building a case for Kylo being mind controlled in some way....while some might not be happy with that outcome, it might be the one way to placate the GA who are angry about Han's death and less forgiving than Kylo fans. Also, Sinjir's training through torture got me thinking....in the TFA Visual Dictionary, Kylo's role is similar to the inquisitors and they've shown the torture instruments he uses- does this mean Ben Solo was tortured into becoming Kylo Ren?

8. I'm worried about the inner core of Jakku... though Rae Sloane closed it, the interior was still red and black....is this a weapon waiting to be unleashed on the galaxy in future episodes?

9. What is the connection between opera and mind control? Rax mentions music several times, Anakin was manipulated by Palpatine during an opera and the mind controlled rebels were affected due to something transmitted from the Chandrila Opera House (Life Debt)

10. Phasma's armor could be made from metal taken from the Imperialis.

11. Where is Luke?? I wonder why he is not contacting Leia when she needs him during her pregnancy...maybe he is in some danger, considering the massacre on Devaron by Kiza and the other acolytes of the beyond- Devaron is coincidentally the location of the jedi temple he promised to visit onnce he became a jedi in Weapon of a Jedi. Maybe he became paranoid about the return of the dark side, as we know from early rumors surrounding TFA.



Ben Solo Related thoughts:

Spoiler:


1. I think the dark presence is spying on poor Leia and Ben through that Serpent's Puzzle tree in Ben's nursery.

In legends, there was a sacred tree called the ch'hala tree which was sensitive to sound waves and physical contact, and could be used to collect and transmit information by Palpatine, Thrawn etc. I think keeping that tree by poor Ben's bedside was a terrible idea...and it explains how poor Ben was watched from the very beginning.

2. I wonder if Uncle Lando's gift of a ship and blaster will come in handy in episode 8 in case Rey and Kylo run off together...am really hoping Lando reappears in episode 8. Here is the other gift Ben got (the tooka doll)



3. I think Dubrovnik is Hanna City on the planet Chandrila....it would also explain any flashbacks since Hanna city is Ben's birthplace.

4. Baby Ben wanted to be snuggled by Han. Sad

5. I think the one person who might know Ben from childhood is Temmin Snap Wexley since he was literally in his nursery before he was born and knew Han and Leia personally. I felt bad for Temmin when he stood in Ben's room thinking about how this baby would have everything, especially since he didn't have his parents around and later his mind controlled father tried to kill him. Sad


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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 26 Feb - 6:52

Even sadder...
How they all think Ben led a privileged life when in reality he knew nothing but pain. No
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 26 Feb - 7:09

panki wrote:General thoughts on Empire's End:

Spoiler:


1.  I think the source of the darkness will be some ancient mystical group like the sorcerers of Rhand from legends who could want to destroy the Force and the galaxy... they can see the future, have immense dark side powers and can mind control people from great distances. This group is based in the Unknown Regions in legends and are a brutal death cult. They also had access to ancient Rakatan technology and artifacts which they sold to collectors. I won't be surprised if Snoke is one of the members of this group.

2. I wonder if Palpatine's spirit is still around and trying to return to the world of the living. (its interesting that Ian McDiarmid is a special guest at SWC this year).

Rax says the following lines to Yupe Tashu before making him wear the sith mask, hold the staff and holocron and then throwing him into the depths of the planet...while Rax doesn't believe in Palpatine and Yupe Tashu's mystical practices, Palpatine definitely knew events from the future since he foresaw the outcast (Rae Sloane) remaining.  

“You must be clothed in the raiment of darkness,” Rax says. “The mantle of the dark side is yours to wear, at least for a time. At least until we can find Palpatine and revivify him, bringing his soul back to flesh anew.”

3. The latest Poe Dameron comic makes it clear that the resources of the FO don't belong to Hux, Phasma or even Snoke....so who do they belong to? This question is answered in books like High Noon on Jakku where we see credits being siphoned off the republic by criminal elements for some unknown purpose....also, we see the underworld gangs trying to instigate war in Empire's End so that they can benefit. Empire's End mentions the union of two gangs- Red Key and Black Sun. Red Key had already infiltrated new republic politics in Empire's End and Black Sun had star destroyer size ships even during the clone wars.

Red Key + Black Sun = the colour scheme of the FO. The FO's symbol is an inversion of the black sun.

Black Sun (Red Key group symbol isn't available)

First Order

Also, the FO includes criminal elements like Agent Terex in their senior ranks, who run their illegal rackets independent of the FO.  All this means that Rae Sloane's dream of "her Empire" would be destroyed by criminal and lawless elements interfering.

4. I'm not going into Rey's lineage but it is possible that she was being considered a vessel to house Palpatine or some other death sith Lord's spirit....and the evidence for this is that Rey could hear an ancient voice asking her to kill Kylo on SKB....Palpatine heard this sort of voice....Vader, Rax etc never heard this voice....infact, Rax thought he was crazy for claiming to hear voices.

Rae Sloane was lonely and without anything left other than her Empire....maybe she formed an attachment to this little girl and tried to save her by flying her to Jakku (being the nearest point to the Unknown Regions) and but got killed shortly after....maybe this girl reminded her of Adea Rite (Life Debt) and she didn't want another young girl to be manipulated and killed....Rey's memories of a mother stroking her hair could have been Rae Sloane and maybe that is why she remembers the name Rey. I think Rae Sloane might have asked Unkar to take this girl to safety but Unkar got greedy and kept her as a slave instead.

This would be similar to the legends story of Ederlahth Pallopides, Palpatine's grand niece who was supported by Admiral Betl Oxtroe but the Admiral was assassinated by imperials who wanted to continue fighting the new republic in legends and not compromise. Betl Oxtroe was very similar to Rae Sloane both in story and personality.

5. Is Unkar into kidnapping children for the FO? After Niima the Hutt died, someone else must have taken up the job and Unkar seems unethical enough to indulge in such stuff.

6. I wonder if Wookies are connected to the force and that is the "song" they hear.....TCW was supposed to include episodes where wookies could communicate with the spirit of the trees in the Kashyyk forests and get their help for battle....so Chewie and his son Waroo might be somewhat force sensitive after all (not a force user but force sensitive)...I wonder what happened to Waroo by the time of TFA.

7. Mind control seems to play a big role in Empire's End... for instance, the mind chips in Brentin Wexley and other rebel prisoners that turned them into assassins, the feral children who were wild but obedient, Niima's slaves, Kiza being controlled by her mask etc. (I can go into other canon exaples from other books and comics but the list will be too long)

They are definitely building a case for Kylo being mind controlled in some way....while some might not be happy with that outcome, it might be the one way to placate the GA who are angry about Han's death and less forgiving than Kylo fans. Also, Sinjir's training through torture got me thinking....in the TFA Visual Dictionary, Kylo's role is similar to the inquisitors and they've shown the torture instruments he uses- does this mean Ben Solo was tortured into becoming Kylo Ren?

8. I'm worried about the inner core of Jakku... though Rae Sloane closed it, the interior was still red and black....is this a weapon waiting to be unleashed on the galaxy in future episodes?

9. What is the connection between opera and mind control? Rax mentions music several times, Anakin was manipulated by Palpatine during an opera and the mind controlled rebels were affected due to something transmitted from the Chandrila Opera House (Life Debt)

10. Phasma's armor could be made from metal taken from the Imperialis.

11. Where is Luke?? I wonder why he is not contacting Leia when she needs him during her pregnancy...maybe he is in some danger, considering the massacre on Devaron by Kiza and the other acolytes of the beyond- Devaron is coincidentally the location of the jedi temple he promised to visit onnce he became a jedi in Weapon of a Jedi. Maybe he became paranoid about the return of the dark side, as we know from early rumors surrounding TFA.



Ben Solo Related thoughts:

Spoiler:


1. I think the dark presence is spying on poor Leia and Ben through that Serpent's Puzzle tree in Ben's nursery.

In legends, there was a sacred tree called the ch'hala tree which was sensitive to sound waves and physical contact, and could be used to collect and transmit information by Palpatine, Thrawn etc. I think keeping that tree by poor Ben's bedside was a terrible idea...and it explains how poor Ben was watched from the very beginning.

2. I wonder if Uncle Lando's gift of a ship and blaster will come in handy in episode 8 in case Rey and Kylo run off together...am really hoping Lando reappears in episode 8. Here is the other gift Ben got (the tooka doll)



3. I think Dubrovnik is Hanna City on the planet Chandrila....it would also explain any flashbacks since Hanna city is Ben's birthplace.

4. Baby Ben wanted to be snuggled by Han. Sad

5. I think the one person who might know Ben from childhood is Temmin Snap Wexley since he was literally in his nursery before he was born and  knew Han and Leia personally. I felt bad for Temmin when he stood in Ben's room thinking about how this baby would have everything, especially since he didn't have his parents around and later his mind controlled father tried to kill him. Sad

@panki

Spoiler:
I had the same thought about Ian McDiarmid coming to SWC.  The new books are really making a very big deal about the emperor.

I need to go over the book more, but I think you might be onto something with this Black Sun/Red Key alliance.  The books go into a lot of detail about these criminal syndicates.  (Also, I'll have to look over Bloodline again to see what syndicates are still in business ... but neverthless, we know from Bloodline that the FO had criminal connections.  I mean the discussion of the syndicates could be fodder for the books, but there was also a lot of talk from Rae Sloane about the Jakku stormtroopers being thuggish and criminal. 

Rae Sloane went imperial because she hated criminal behaviors.  I think you are right that this will be the source of her disillusionment (along with the feral children and Snoke) once she gets to the Unknown regions.

As a result, I could see Rae Sloane being the one to escape with Rey to Jakku if Rey is pegged to be a host for Palpatine or to be molded into a kind of unbeatable soldier.  There was talk of Rae not having children ... and she did make Adea kind of a child ... also, she felt like the Empire saved her from violence as a child.  Maybe she would want to do the same for Rey.

Unkar seemed to have a pretty direct line to the FO for being on such a backwater planet ... so I would not be a bit surprised if he was part of some children collecting operation.  Maybe the only reason Rey isn't sold is because Rae Sloane put the fear of god in him -or- he's holding her in reserve in case he gets in trouble because he knows that the FO will want her.

On the Wookies, I can't remember Life Debt at the moment, but weren't the imperials actually doing something to make the Wookies be brainwashed? I thought that they were getting some transmission like Brentin or were being drugged.

I agree with you about mind control being everywhere and further agree with you that this is setting up a case for Ben Solo/Kylo Ren.  What's particularly interesting is that they have shown multiple forms of mind control.  Straight up torture/breaking/perhaps drugging for Niima's slaves.  Force mind-control via the dreams that the Acolytes of Beyond.  (You wanna bet that we are going to find out that Ben Solo was tormented by dreams).  You have torture/breaking of people with Sinjir ... and JJ described Kylo as "broken" ... this could have multiple meanings.  We have actual implant chips with Brentin.  We have whatever was happening with the Wookies.  Then in Life Debt there were people just flying suicide missions into walls.  Then there are the masks and force-powerful stuff which with Kiza was shown that just the wearing could turn somebody from being "not so sure about the Acolytes" to stabbing a sex partner in the side of the head.  I also agree with you that there is something about opera ... that could be very Manchurian Candidate if they wanted to make it that.  How Ben Solo will be "broken" is still up for grabs.  There will probably be a combination of assaults.  (1) Snoke's watching and causing him some kind of pain (as shown by his extreme discomfort in the womb and in the crib when Han had to pick him up.  (2) Dreams and visions from Sith ... most like Vader ... whether this is really Vader who knows.  (3) Some kind of mental/physical torture that literally "breaks" him.  There is too much of this with the Niima slaves and Sinjir's training and God knows how Brendol got those kids to act like that.  (4) There might be triggers as well.  Those kids went murderous when the light went out ... so did Ben (5) Masks ... the dark side energy pushed Kiza over the edge. 

I think the nuance and ambiguity is going to come from Ben having a number of "breaking" and "mind-addling" things happening to him, but none will be the perfect slam dunk of Brentin.  Instead, IMO Ben's will be more a "weight upon weight' being put on him type of situation until he breaks ... but for some people in the audience no matter how terrible the blows and the weight it won't matter what he went through, even if Han abandoned him in his darkest hour ... because "you just don't kill your father" and "You're always responsible for your decisions" no matter how much you've been tortured or how thoroughly your mind is broken.  Personally, I am not for that at all.  I believe that abuse/torture (back to your mental illness metaphor) does decrease one's level of agency in a major way, enough to make the story about recovery and rehabilitation and not really all that much about redemption at all ... but not everyone will get in line for that ... and that will make people argue and that's what LF/Disney will want ... controversy to keep us going for another two years.

Phasma's armor is definitely from one of those Imperialis copies IMO.  It makes me wonder who she is related to to get such armor.

I agree with you about Jakku.  It's like a ticking time bomb.  When they revisit Jakku, some switch is going to be flipped and the planet will become unstable I bet.

I agree, the absence of Luke is weird.  I mean what is he doing? Why can't he at least Skype Leia?

On Ben, I definitely think that the Serpent's tree is bugging Ben's room.  They made a big deal about finding the bug in Elsie, but the real bug is right under their noses.  Snoke would "listen" through the force ... therefore, he would work through something organic ... and like those Rhand people you were talking about and apparently the Sith giving out dreams, would be able to transmit and receive information over long distances.

I would *love* it if Lando's gift came in handy and if Lando appeared!!!  I really hope that he is a surprise ... like Sean Connery was in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves for the Generation Xers among us.

Dubrovnik could be Chandrila.  It seems to be a coastal place as is Dubrovnik.

I also noticed how Ben wanted to snuggle with Han.   Sad  That scene also gave me a feeling of a possible tragic element that we may see in that relationship moving forward.  Han, as shown in Life Debt, is shown in Empire's End as being pretty unready to be a father (unlike Chewbacca whose reunion scene was incredible).  But at the same time, for all his insecurity, Han definitely loves Ben, though he is afraid to show it in an obvious way.  But just the fact that he is talking to Ben about how they're in this together and "don't tell your mother" tells me that he is excited for his son and is treating him like a friend (like Chewie) which for Han is probably the highest compliment.  Moreover, Han seems hurt and seems to have his insecurity heightened by the fact that Leia can read Ben through the force.  I bet that this insecurity causes him to (1) be alienated from his son even though he loves him because he thinks he's not really in the same league as Leia with the baby due to lack of FS, and (2) he does not challenge Leia much on how Ben is raised because he thinks she has a special connection. 

Leia says in the book that he and Ben will have their own thing because he is "his father."  But that lesson doesn't seem to stick or Han lets his "odd man out" feelings about FS get in the way of it because Leia has to remind him again in TFA.  And all of this makes me think that Han really didn't want Ben to go to Luke (remember the "I lost you both" line from TFA), but in the end Han let Leia win the argument because he wouldn't fight her because (1) she had to know better because she was FS and (2) he was the second rate parent as a result.  But I bet Han resented her for that on some level, so the wedge may have begun then.  We'll see how much they delve into "I lost you both" in TLJ.

Moreover, I think Han's backing off may turn out to be doubly tragic because I believe that Ben was being assaulted by whatever darkness in that crib scene with him and Han.  He just gets too upset too fast ... and the fact that just being held by his father calms him down indicates to me that Han (and his love) are a protective force.  Han may not be FS, but he may not need to be.  His love may in an essential, almost-Lily Potter kind of way, be an amazing shield to whatever Snoke might be able to dish out.  Had Han engaged more than he seems to have, it's possible that Ben would have had the strength and security to fight off Snoke indefinitely.

The Jedi were in many ways anti-feeling.  But it was a son's love that saved Vader.  It may be love that helps save Kylo and may be love that saves Rey if she starts to fall to the dark.  Han's love puts the poison pill into Snoke's attempt to grab Kylo completely ... enough that the sun (son) was reborn. Han probably had this immense power all along, but he was too intimidated by the force and force connections when in the end the ST might make such things secondary to romantic and familial and friendship love.

Finally, on Temmin, I have a million thoughts on him.  I need to go over the book more, but basically, IMO Temmin is an analogue for Ben in terms of parental abandonment and Norra is an analogue for Leia and probably Han.  Norra is crazy singleminded and does all kinds of risky and all-consuming stuff and only thinks of her kid after the fact.  Han is still looking for adventure in Empire's End ... and Leia, like Norra, thinks she's the only one who can spearhead this "fomenting rebellion of occupied planets" thing.  Even Han asks, "Can't somebody else do this?"  Leia is also like Norra because she thinks seriously over how she would handle what Norra is going through (i.e. having a loved one be mind-controlled and killing people).  That feels like foreshadowing to me. 

Finally, it's ironic and sad how Temmin thinks that Ben will have a great life when if fact, for all Temmin has gone through, he actually turns out okay.  His mother gets lucky in her abandonment of him.  He doesn't lose it.  He doesn't get killed.  He doesn't get mind-controlled.  Part of that luck has to do with the fact that Temmin is not FS and as such is not that interesting to someone like Snoke.  OTOH, Ben, who has this beautiful room and both of his parents and seems to be set up for the perfect life will not do as well with his abandonment issues because before Han and Leia have a chance to make any mistakes he has a FS child predator demon in his head.  Temmin's life seems better and Ben's is worse ... and it may very well be that the FS is the curse that made all the difference. 
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by snufkin on Sun 26 Feb - 7:55

They are just laying it on heavy with the parallels between the two with these additional details

Spoiler:



Although anything they ever show/publish about the same scenario with Rey's parents is just going to be straight up depressing because you know the outcome is going to be like what happens to Bambi's mom.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by SanghaRen on Sun 26 Feb - 17:03

IoJovi wrote:
SanghaRen wrote:How the heck did you people read the book already? Did you skip sleeping? My Kindle says I read only 20%. But yeah, work is crazy so no way I can do a reading marathon. I read the last pages though, as I always do. Baby Ben in Han's arms is so... Sad Mean author playing with our feelings.

What I can say so far, not related to Reylo at all:
- I am laughing so hard at the name Niima Outpost now because I picture this thin worm-like female version of Jabba thinking she's a Goddess.
- Niima and her slaves on Jakku remind me of Immortan Joe and his war boys.
- Just when you think Rae Sloane is not that mean, she shoots a guy in the head - he did not exactly have a future but still... Love her nonetheless.
- Lots of fanatism everywhere. I must say LF is not afraid to go into gritty territories. I am quite impressed.

Now I'll continue.
@SanghaRen

I remember when Life Debt came out, it seemed like some folks had it done in under two days. I simply cannot read that fast and follow the story. I like to take my time, take it all in and savor it. So it's not just you. I just picked up my copy about an hour ago, and have finished to prelude.

I can't wait - this is gonna be great!
@IoJovi

I found Life Debt difficult to read. I did not care much for the story and the supposedly new good characters. It took a lot of warming up and I forced myself to read it more than enjoyed it, if I am honest.

Empire's End is better imo. I did start reading the first couple of pages fast and then a voice in my head said "nope, start again and take time to really appreciate it." And that's what I am doing now. Which also requires for the average fan that I am to go on Internet and check out species. They should really have drawings of the characters. At the same time, they probably prefer to keep their looks a bit open in case they want to include them in additional media. I am only at 37% now. Little time to read right now.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by IoJovi on Sun 26 Feb - 17:10

SanghaRen wrote:
IoJovi wrote:
SanghaRen wrote:How the heck did you people read the book already? Did you skip sleeping? My Kindle says I read only 20%. But yeah, work is crazy so no way I can do a reading marathon. I read the last pages though, as I always do. Baby Ben in Han's arms is so... Sad Mean author playing with our feelings.

What I can say so far, not related to Reylo at all:
- I am laughing so hard at the name Niima Outpost now because I picture this thin worm-like female version of Jabba thinking she's a Goddess.
- Niima and her slaves on Jakku remind me of Immortan Joe and his war boys.
- Just when you think Rae Sloane is not that mean, she shoots a guy in the head - he did not exactly have a future but still... Love her nonetheless.
- Lots of fanatism everywhere. I must say LF is not afraid to go into gritty territories. I am quite impressed.

Now I'll continue.
@SanghaRen

I remember when Life Debt came out, it seemed like some folks had it done in under two days. I simply cannot read that fast and follow the story. I like to take my time, take it all in and savor it. So it's not just you. I just picked up my copy about an hour ago, and have finished to prelude.

I can't wait - this is gonna be great!
@IoJovi

I found Life Debt difficult to read. I did not care much for the story and the supposedly new good characters. It took a lot of warming up and I forced myself to read it more than enjoyed it, if I am honest.

Empire's End is better imo. I did start reading the first couple of pages fast and then a voice in my head said "nope, start again and take time to really appreciate it." And that's what I am doing now. Which also requires for the average fan that I am to go on Internet and check out species. They should really have drawings of the characters. At the same time, they probably prefer to keep their looks a bit open in case they want to include them in additional media. I am only at 37% now. Little time to read right now.
@SanghaRen

I am still on the first three pages. We JUST moved last week and we're still finishing up odds and ends.

I enjoyed Life Debt, but liked Bloodlines more. Don't worry about not being able to get into it - you're not alone. @WillowMeena only finished the second half because she couldn't stand Chuck Wendig's writing style and overuse of words when it came to descriptions. I ended up giving her about a half hour summary over the phone on how the book ended because at the end of the day, she still wanted to know. Laughing

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by Mrs Ben Solo on Sun 26 Feb - 17:36

r.e Ben Solo...

Spoiler:
I know it isn't wise to give too much credence/importance to Pablo's tweets but the one where he said Kylo and Hux had been working together for around 5 years still bugs me. We don't have a definite timeline from Bloodline to TFA yet so the matter of it being 5 or 6 years is up in the air. Hopefully, TLJ will clear some of this up as to when exactly Ben went to join Snoke and the First Order. It does seem like there could be some leeway for him not to have gone willingly, though. If there was a period of time between Ben leaving Luke and him working alongside Hux and the First Order, it begs the question of what was happening to him during that period. We also have the untold story of how Han knew it was Ben under the mask and robes if he hadn't seen his son for years. Could have been an educated guess, I suppose. But again, PH suggested there was more story to be told there. I'm not against Ben having been tortured/brainwashed into being Kylo as AD has already kinda implied this with his terrorist comparisons.
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 26 Feb - 17:57

A few posts back, there was some discussion about how the wookies were controlled in Life Debt.

I remember this detail--they had chips in their heads. The chips were similar to what the prisoner/assassins had, but the wookie chips were meant to keep the wookies in line. I'm not 100% sure on this, but if I recall, if a chipped wookie rebelled while the chip was active, the chip would do something to kill him/her.

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by panki on Sun 26 Feb - 23:02

SoloSideCousin wrote:
panki wrote:General thoughts on Empire's End:

Spoiler:


1.  I think the source of the darkness will be some ancient mystical group like the sorcerers of Rhand from legends who could want to destroy the Force and the galaxy... they can see the future, have immense dark side powers and can mind control people from great distances. This group is based in the Unknown Regions in legends and are a brutal death cult. They also had access to ancient Rakatan technology and artifacts which they sold to collectors. I won't be surprised if Snoke is one of the members of this group.

2. I wonder if Palpatine's spirit is still around and trying to return to the world of the living. (its interesting that Ian McDiarmid is a special guest at SWC this year).

Rax says the following lines to Yupe Tashu before making him wear the sith mask, hold the staff and holocron and then throwing him into the depths of the planet...while Rax doesn't believe in Palpatine and Yupe Tashu's mystical practices, Palpatine definitely knew events from the future since he foresaw the outcast (Rae Sloane) remaining.  

“You must be clothed in the raiment of darkness,” Rax says. “The mantle of the dark side is yours to wear, at least for a time. At least until we can find Palpatine and revivify him, bringing his soul back to flesh anew.”

3. The latest Poe Dameron comic makes it clear that the resources of the FO don't belong to Hux, Phasma or even Snoke....so who do they belong to? This question is answered in books like High Noon on Jakku where we see credits being siphoned off the republic by criminal elements for some unknown purpose....also, we see the underworld gangs trying to instigate war in Empire's End so that they can benefit. Empire's End mentions the union of two gangs- Red Key and Black Sun. Red Key had already infiltrated new republic politics in Empire's End and Black Sun had star destroyer size ships even during the clone wars.

Red Key + Black Sun = the colour scheme of the FO. The FO's symbol is an inversion of the black sun.

Black Sun (Red Key group symbol isn't available)

First Order

Also, the FO includes criminal elements like Agent Terex in their senior ranks, who run their illegal rackets independent of the FO.  All this means that Rae Sloane's dream of "her Empire" would be destroyed by criminal and lawless elements interfering.

4. I'm not going into Rey's lineage but it is possible that she was being considered a vessel to house Palpatine or some other death sith Lord's spirit....and the evidence for this is that Rey could hear an ancient voice asking her to kill Kylo on SKB....Palpatine heard this sort of voice....Vader, Rax etc never heard this voice....infact, Rax thought he was crazy for claiming to hear voices.

Rae Sloane was lonely and without anything left other than her Empire....maybe she formed an attachment to this little girl and tried to save her by flying her to Jakku (being the nearest point to the Unknown Regions) and but got killed shortly after....maybe this girl reminded her of Adea Rite (Life Debt) and she didn't want another young girl to be manipulated and killed....Rey's memories of a mother stroking her hair could have been Rae Sloane and maybe that is why she remembers the name Rey. I think Rae Sloane might have asked Unkar to take this girl to safety but Unkar got greedy and kept her as a slave instead.

This would be similar to the legends story of Ederlahth Pallopides, Palpatine's grand niece who was supported by Admiral Betl Oxtroe but the Admiral was assassinated by imperials who wanted to continue fighting the new republic in legends and not compromise. Betl Oxtroe was very similar to Rae Sloane both in story and personality.

5. Is Unkar into kidnapping children for the FO? After Niima the Hutt died, someone else must have taken up the job and Unkar seems unethical enough to indulge in such stuff.

6. I wonder if Wookies are connected to the force and that is the "song" they hear.....TCW was supposed to include episodes where wookies could communicate with the spirit of the trees in the Kashyyk forests and get their help for battle....so Chewie and his son Waroo might be somewhat force sensitive after all (not a force user but force sensitive)...I wonder what happened to Waroo by the time of TFA.

7. Mind control seems to play a big role in Empire's End... for instance, the mind chips in Brentin Wexley and other rebel prisoners that turned them into assassins, the feral children who were wild but obedient, Niima's slaves, Kiza being controlled by her mask etc. (I can go into other canon exaples from other books and comics but the list will be too long)

They are definitely building a case for Kylo being mind controlled in some way....while some might not be happy with that outcome, it might be the one way to placate the GA who are angry about Han's death and less forgiving than Kylo fans. Also, Sinjir's training through torture got me thinking....in the TFA Visual Dictionary, Kylo's role is similar to the inquisitors and they've shown the torture instruments he uses- does this mean Ben Solo was tortured into becoming Kylo Ren?

8. I'm worried about the inner core of Jakku... though Rae Sloane closed it, the interior was still red and black....is this a weapon waiting to be unleashed on the galaxy in future episodes?

9. What is the connection between opera and mind control? Rax mentions music several times, Anakin was manipulated by Palpatine during an opera and the mind controlled rebels were affected due to something transmitted from the Chandrila Opera House (Life Debt)

10. Phasma's armor could be made from metal taken from the Imperialis.

11. Where is Luke?? I wonder why he is not contacting Leia when she needs him during her pregnancy...maybe he is in some danger, considering the massacre on Devaron by Kiza and the other acolytes of the beyond- Devaron is coincidentally the location of the jedi temple he promised to visit onnce he became a jedi in Weapon of a Jedi. Maybe he became paranoid about the return of the dark side, as we know from early rumors surrounding TFA.



Ben Solo Related thoughts:

Spoiler:


1. I think the dark presence is spying on poor Leia and Ben through that Serpent's Puzzle tree in Ben's nursery.

In legends, there was a sacred tree called the ch'hala tree which was sensitive to sound waves and physical contact, and could be used to collect and transmit information by Palpatine, Thrawn etc. I think keeping that tree by poor Ben's bedside was a terrible idea...and it explains how poor Ben was watched from the very beginning.

2. I wonder if Uncle Lando's gift of a ship and blaster will come in handy in episode 8 in case Rey and Kylo run off together...am really hoping Lando reappears in episode 8. Here is the other gift Ben got (the tooka doll)



3. I think Dubrovnik is Hanna City on the planet Chandrila....it would also explain any flashbacks since Hanna city is Ben's birthplace.

4. Baby Ben wanted to be snuggled by Han. Sad

5. I think the one person who might know Ben from childhood is Temmin Snap Wexley since he was literally in his nursery before he was born and  knew Han and Leia personally. I felt bad for Temmin when he stood in Ben's room thinking about how this baby would have everything, especially since he didn't have his parents around and later his mind controlled father tried to kill him. Sad

@panki

Spoiler:
I had the same thought about Ian McDiarmid coming to SWC.  The new books are really making a very big deal about the emperor.

I need to go over the book more, but I think you might be onto something with this Black Sun/Red Key alliance.  The books go into a lot of detail about these criminal syndicates.  (Also, I'll have to look over Bloodline again to see what syndicates are still in business ... but neverthless, we know from Bloodline that the FO had criminal connections.  I mean the discussion of the syndicates could be fodder for the books, but there was also a lot of talk from Rae Sloane about the Jakku stormtroopers being thuggish and criminal. 

Rae Sloane went imperial because she hated criminal behaviors.  I think you are right that this will be the source of her disillusionment (along with the feral children and Snoke) once she gets to the Unknown regions.

As a result, I could see Rae Sloane being the one to escape with Rey to Jakku if Rey is pegged to be a host for Palpatine or to be molded into a kind of unbeatable soldier.  There was talk of Rae not having children ... and she did make Adea kind of a child ... also, she felt like the Empire saved her from violence as a child.  Maybe she would want to do the same for Rey.

Unkar seemed to have a pretty direct line to the FO for being on such a backwater planet ... so I would not be a bit surprised if he was part of some children collecting operation.  Maybe the only reason Rey isn't sold is because Rae Sloane put the fear of god in him -or- he's holding her in reserve in case he gets in trouble because he knows that the FO will want her.

On the Wookies, I can't remember Life Debt at the moment, but weren't the imperials actually doing something to make the Wookies be brainwashed? I thought that they were getting some transmission like Brentin or were being drugged.

I agree with you about mind control being everywhere and further agree with you that this is setting up a case for Ben Solo/Kylo Ren.  What's particularly interesting is that they have shown multiple forms of mind control.  Straight up torture/breaking/perhaps drugging for Niima's slaves.  Force mind-control via the dreams that the Acolytes of Beyond.  (You wanna bet that we are going to find out that Ben Solo was tormented by dreams).  You have torture/breaking of people with Sinjir ... and JJ described Kylo as "broken" ... this could have multiple meanings.  We have actual implant chips with Brentin.  We have whatever was happening with the Wookies.  Then in Life Debt there were people just flying suicide missions into walls.  Then there are the masks and force-powerful stuff which with Kiza was shown that just the wearing could turn somebody from being "not so sure about the Acolytes" to stabbing a sex partner in the side of the head.  I also agree with you that there is something about opera ... that could be very Manchurian Candidate if they wanted to make it that.  How Ben Solo will be "broken" is still up for grabs.  There will probably be a combination of assaults.  (1) Snoke's watching and causing him some kind of pain (as shown by his extreme discomfort in the womb and in the crib when Han had to pick him up.  (2) Dreams and visions from Sith ... most like Vader ... whether this is really Vader who knows.  (3) Some kind of mental/physical torture that literally "breaks" him.  There is too much of this with the Niima slaves and Sinjir's training and God knows how Brendol got those kids to act like that.  (4) There might be triggers as well.  Those kids went murderous when the light went out ... so did Ben (5) Masks ... the dark side energy pushed Kiza over the edge. 

I think the nuance and ambiguity is going to come from Ben having a number of "breaking" and "mind-addling" things happening to him, but none will be the perfect slam dunk of Brentin.  Instead, IMO Ben's will be more a "weight upon weight' being put on him type of situation until he breaks ... but for some people in the audience no matter how terrible the blows and the weight it won't matter what he went through, even if Han abandoned him in his darkest hour ... because "you just don't kill your father" and "You're always responsible for your decisions" no matter how much you've been tortured or how thoroughly your mind is broken.  Personally, I am not for that at all.  I believe that abuse/torture (back to your mental illness metaphor) does decrease one's level of agency in a major way, enough to make the story about recovery and rehabilitation and not really all that much about redemption at all ... but not everyone will get in line for that ... and that will make people argue and that's what LF/Disney will want ... controversy to keep us going for another two years.

Phasma's armor is definitely from one of those Imperialis copies IMO.  It makes me wonder who she is related to to get such armor.

I agree with you about Jakku.  It's like a ticking time bomb.  When they revisit Jakku, some switch is going to be flipped and the planet will become unstable I bet.

I agree, the absence of Luke is weird.  I mean what is he doing? Why can't he at least Skype Leia?

On Ben, I definitely think that the Serpent's tree is bugging Ben's room.  They made a big deal about finding the bug in Elsie, but the real bug is right under their noses.  Snoke would "listen" through the force ... therefore, he would work through something organic ... and like those Rhand people you were talking about and apparently the Sith giving out dreams, would be able to transmit and receive information over long distances.

I would *love* it if Lando's gift came in handy and if Lando appeared!!!  I really hope that he is a surprise ... like Sean Connery was in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves for the Generation Xers among us.

Dubrovnik could be Chandrila.  It seems to be a coastal place as is Dubrovnik.

I also noticed how Ben wanted to snuggle with Han.   Sad  That scene also gave me a feeling of a possible tragic element that we may see in that relationship moving forward.  Han, as shown in Life Debt, is shown in Empire's End as being pretty unready to be a father (unlike Chewbacca whose reunion scene was incredible).  But at the same time, for all his insecurity, Han definitely loves Ben, though he is afraid to show it in an obvious way.  But just the fact that he is talking to Ben about how they're in this together and "don't tell your mother" tells me that he is excited for his son and is treating him like a friend (like Chewie) which for Han is probably the highest compliment.  Moreover, Han seems hurt and seems to have his insecurity heightened by the fact that Leia can read Ben through the force.  I bet that this insecurity causes him to (1) be alienated from his son even though he loves him because he thinks he's not really in the same league as Leia with the baby due to lack of FS, and (2) he does not challenge Leia much on how Ben is raised because he thinks she has a special connection. 

Leia says in the book that he and Ben will have their own thing because he is "his father."  But that lesson doesn't seem to stick or Han lets his "odd man out" feelings about FS get in the way of it because Leia has to remind him again in TFA.  And all of this makes me think that Han really didn't want Ben to go to Luke (remember the "I lost you both" line from TFA), but in the end Han let Leia win the argument because he wouldn't fight her because (1) she had to know better because she was FS and (2) he was the second rate parent as a result.  But I bet Han resented her for that on some level, so the wedge may have begun then.  We'll see how much they delve into "I lost you both" in TLJ.

Moreover, I think Han's backing off may turn out to be doubly tragic because I believe that Ben was being assaulted by whatever darkness in that crib scene with him and Han.  He just gets too upset too fast ... and the fact that just being held by his father calms him down indicates to me that Han (and his love) are a protective force.  Han may not be FS, but he may not need to be.  His love may in an essential, almost-Lily Potter kind of way, be an amazing shield to whatever Snoke might be able to dish out.  Had Han engaged more than he seems to have, it's possible that Ben would have had the strength and security to fight off Snoke indefinitely.

The Jedi were in many ways anti-feeling.  But it was a son's love that saved Vader.  It may be love that helps save Kylo and may be love that saves Rey if she starts to fall to the dark.  Han's love puts the poison pill into Snoke's attempt to grab Kylo completely ... enough that the sun (son) was reborn. Han probably had this immense power all along, but he was too intimidated by the force and force connections when in the end the ST might make such things secondary to romantic and familial and friendship love.

Finally, on Temmin, I have a million thoughts on him.  I need to go over the book more, but basically, IMO Temmin is an analogue for Ben in terms of parental abandonment and Norra is an analogue for Leia and probably Han.  Norra is crazy singleminded and does all kinds of risky and all-consuming stuff and only thinks of her kid after the fact.  Han is still looking for adventure in Empire's End ... and Leia, like Norra, thinks she's the only one who can spearhead this "fomenting rebellion of occupied planets" thing.  Even Han asks, "Can't somebody else do this?"  Leia is also like Norra because she thinks seriously over how she would handle what Norra is going through (i.e. having a loved one be mind-controlled and killing people).  That feels like foreshadowing to me. 

Finally, it's ironic and sad how Temmin thinks that Ben will have a great life when if fact, for all Temmin has gone through, he actually turns out okay.  His mother gets lucky in her abandonment of him.  He doesn't lose it.  He doesn't get killed.  He doesn't get mind-controlled.  Part of that luck has to do with the fact that Temmin is not FS and as such is not that interesting to someone like Snoke.  OTOH, Ben, who has this beautiful room and both of his parents and seems to be set up for the perfect life will not do as well with his abandonment issues because before Han and Leia have a chance to make any mistakes he has a FS child predator demon in his head.  Temmin's life seems better and Ben's is worse ... and it may very well be that the FS is the curse that made all the difference. 
@SoloSideCousin

Spoiler:


I think quite a few gangs were active by the time of TFA....we have the Guavian Death gang, Kanjiclub, the Ranc Gang (Poe Dameron comics), Grakkus the Hutt's supporters, Kan Be, Isin and Papa Toren's groups (Lando and Poe Dameron comics)  and whatever group Rinvin Di from Bloodline was working for.....and most of these groups worked for the FO in some capacity...maybe all those seats in Snoke's space skype room are for these criminal elements and financiers when Snoke needs to address them...I feel that in addition to Snoke, we might see at least one or two crime bosses play a role in TLJ....maybe in the casino scenes or the chase scenes in Dubrovnik?

2.Regarding Unkar, it makes sense that he keeps Rey just in case the FO comes looking for her and in the meantime he can happily exploit her excellent scavenging abilities.

3. When I initially read the chapter on Waroo, I thought the "song" was the mind control chip put into wookies...but on reading it again, I noticed that the song stopped once the "milk skins" or imperials turned up on Kashyyk...and for Waroo the song started once more when he saw his father again....this reminded me of the song of the kyber crystals that Ahsoka spoke about....I feel that the chips implanted in the wookies blocked their ability to hear the force and that is why they were so disturbed and some killed themselves.

4. I somehow feel Phasma is Tarkin's daughter.....for one thing, Tarkin was a womaniser in cann so he could have had a child and we recently saw him in RO so he is fresh in the GA's minds.....Tarkin was also brought up in a very disciplined and almost brutal (kill or be killed) manner- Phasma gives off a similar vibe,...making her Tarkin's daughter would make her a formidable foe for the rebel plot of TLJ.

5. About Luke,  I'm still bothered by the lines that he felt responsible and went into exile....it means he takes the blame in some capacity....I sometimes wonder whether Luke sensed a darkness and couldn't find its source so used Ben as bait to lure it but things went wrong....they've kept Luke's post Shattered Empire activities a mystery so there must be some big reveal regarding his activities.

6. I agree with you completely regarding Han, especially the part that maybe he didn't want Ben to go away...and that is why he mentored young pilots- since he missed his son terribly. I like the similarity between Han and Lily Potter....I still think Han's sacrifice saved Ben somehow....darkside users normally kill someone to steep themselves more into the dark side....Han's acceptance of his death and showing that he loved his son as he died might have given Kylo an immunity against Snoke.
It sounds a lot like Aslan's sacrifice in the Narnia series which resulted in the redeeming of Edmund and saving him from the White Witch, the deep magic that governed Narnia was overturned by a deeper magic and death itself being reversed....maybe Han's sacrifice will have some similar profound effect on future events.

7. I like your observations regarding Temmin....though I feel he wasn't a messed up person largely because he was brought up by his two aunts so he had a stable family environment despite his parents not being around....Poor Ben Solo had everything that money could buy and family that loved him but he didn't have family around which allowed Snoke to prey on him- Leia was busy with the New Republic, Han was busy managing races and traveling all over the galaxy and Uncle Luke was setting up his new order and gathering lore.

8. I forgot to mention a couple of things before:

- I never expected the main romance of the book to be Sinjir's love story...but I think it was really well written and I hope we get a brief cameo of Sinjir and Conder in TLJ (unless they died on Hosnian Prime Sad )

- Bone's death made me very sad ...somehow it upset me even more than Brentin's death (maybe because I was ready for it to make way for Norra's toy boy Wedge)....and Jom's death seemed unnecessary to me.


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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by ReyofLightSide on Tue 28 Feb - 1:38

I finished the book. Overall
spoiler:
I thought it was just okay.

It was interesting they talked about Ben's birth after the fact, was hoping we would have gotten to read about Leia and Han "meeting" Ben for the first time

I am still trying to figure out how Rae will factor in to the ST. I like the theory of Rae being the one to hide Rey. But is she one of the main founders of the First Order? She says, "It's time to start over. That is our first order" to Hux. And then thinks "my empire." What does she have to do with Snoke?
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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Tue 28 Feb - 21:21

I still have a little ways to go in this book, but I have noticed a few things that I haven't really seen discussed here yet that could potentially have ST ramifications:

spoiler - acolytes of the beyond:

When we got that passage from Kiza's point of view, I thought that it was interesting that it was mentioned how the recruited acolytes had some sort of dark side force whispering to them in their dreams. Could this be Snoke, and could this be what was happening to Ben, even in the womb?

spoiler - secret Imperial labs?:

In addition to the secret lab on Jakku, Brentin mentioned how they'd once intercepted a garbled transmission from a suspected secret Imperial lab of some kind in Wild Space. If Wild Space and the Unknown Regions are somewhat close together, and we know that Jakku was thought of as a "last stop before the Unknown Regions," could this set up a scenario where Rey's origins are linked to a secret lab of some sort, and she was dumped/dropped off on Jakku?

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by Darth_Awakened on Wed 1 Mar - 7:43

Just got an SMS from Overseas informing me that my book will be delivered today!

Hallelujah!

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by panki on Wed 1 Mar - 11:03

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
spoiler - secret Imperial labs?:

In addition to the secret lab on Jakku, Brentin mentioned how they'd once intercepted a garbled transmission from a suspected secret Imperial lab of some kind in Wild Space.  If Wild Space and the Unknown Regions are somewhat close together, and we know that Jakku was thought of as a "last stop before the Unknown Regions," could this set up a scenario where Rey's origins are linked to a secret lab of some sort, and she was dumped/dropped off on Jakku?
@ISeeAnIsland

Wild Space is all the space beyond the known borders of the GFFA...the Unknown Regions also partly falls into Wild Space but this is specifically an area just beyond the Western Reaches and Outer Rim. I have seen something in another canon book series that matches this speculation about  imperials in Wild Space quite nicely.

Spoiler:
There is a canon series called "Adventures in Wild Space" where the Graf family (parents and their two children) are exploring and mapping wild space. Imperials turn up and capture the parents, and force them to work for them in a situation very similar to that of Jyn Erso, except that the parents could still be alive.

The mother manages to transmit some important maps of Wild Space that the imperials want into the family droid which she built....and the brother and sister are on the run with this droid, evading imperials who want the maps. Even Darth Vader has an interest in getting hold of the maps for the Emperor. The imperials are expanding their influence beyond the known galaxy and into Wild Space.

On the topic of Rey's  parents, when I read the book I wondered if the young girl Lina Graf could be Rey's mother...the children were left on their own to fend for themselves in an unknown world, the girl is both a pilot and a mechanical genius and they're running away from imperials with a droid containing maps. Also, Lina Graf's hairstyle from the back is interesting.



The main antagonist wants to capture these kids and send them to an imperial academy because he thinks they have great potential. However, its not clear if either of the children is force sensitive.



And back to the topic of garbled transmissions, Lina and her brother Milo intercept both imperial transmissions as well as rebel transmissions in Wild Space....this means both factions are fighting there as well.


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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by CienaRee on Wed 1 Mar - 16:21

panki wrote:
ISeeAnIsland wrote:
spoiler - secret Imperial labs?:

In addition to the secret lab on Jakku, Brentin mentioned how they'd once intercepted a garbled transmission from a suspected secret Imperial lab of some kind in Wild Space.  If Wild Space and the Unknown Regions are somewhat close together, and we know that Jakku was thought of as a "last stop before the Unknown Regions," could this set up a scenario where Rey's origins are linked to a secret lab of some sort, and she was dumped/dropped off on Jakku?
@ISeeAnIsland

Wild Space is all the space beyond the known borders of the GFFA...the Unknown Regions also partly falls into Wild Space but this is specifically an area just beyond the Western Reaches and Outer Rim. I have seen something in another canon book series that matches this speculation about  imperials in Wild Space quite nicely.

Spoiler:
There is a canon series called "Adventures in Wild Space" where the Graf family (parents and their two children) are exploring and mapping wild space. Imperials turn up and capture the parents, and force them to work for them in a situation very similar to that of Jyn Erso, except that the parents could still be alive.

The mother manages to transmit some important maps of Wild Space that the imperials want into the family droid which she built....and the brother and sister are on the run with this droid, evading imperials who want the maps. Even Darth Vader has an interest in getting hold of the maps for the Emperor. The imperials are expanding their influence beyond the known galaxy and into Wild Space.

On the topic of Rey's  parents, when I read the book I wondered if the young girl Lina Graf could be Rey's mother...the children were left on their own to fend for themselves in an unknown world, the girl is both a pilot and a mechanical genius and they're running away from imperials with a droid containing maps. Also, Lina Graf's hairstyle from the back is interesting.



The main antagonist wants to capture these kids and send them to an imperial academy because he thinks they have great potential. However, its not clear if either of the children is force sensitive.



And back to the topic of garbled transmissions, Lina and her brother Milo intercept both imperial transmissions as well as rebel transmissions in Wild Space....this means both factions are fighting there as well.

@panki

That sounds really interesting but it looks like:
Spoiler:

The series is set while Ezra(and by default Luke and Leia)are still newborns so by the time Rey is born Lina would have to be her 40s so maybe she could be her grandmother?

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by panki on Wed 1 Mar - 16:43

CienaRee wrote:
panki wrote:
ISeeAnIsland wrote:
spoiler - secret Imperial labs?:

In addition to the secret lab on Jakku, Brentin mentioned how they'd once intercepted a garbled transmission from a suspected secret Imperial lab of some kind in Wild Space.  If Wild Space and the Unknown Regions are somewhat close together, and we know that Jakku was thought of as a "last stop before the Unknown Regions," could this set up a scenario where Rey's origins are linked to a secret lab of some sort, and she was dumped/dropped off on Jakku?
@ISeeAnIsland

Wild Space is all the space beyond the known borders of the GFFA...the Unknown Regions also partly falls into Wild Space but this is specifically an area just beyond the Western Reaches and Outer Rim. I have seen something in another canon book series that matches this speculation about  imperials in Wild Space quite nicely.

Spoiler:
There is a canon series called "Adventures in Wild Space" where the Graf family (parents and their two children) are exploring and mapping wild space. Imperials turn up and capture the parents, and force them to work for them in a situation very similar to that of Jyn Erso, except that the parents could still be alive.

The mother manages to transmit some important maps of Wild Space that the imperials want into the family droid which she built....and the brother and sister are on the run with this droid, evading imperials who want the maps. Even Darth Vader has an interest in getting hold of the maps for the Emperor. The imperials are expanding their influence beyond the known galaxy and into Wild Space.

On the topic of Rey's  parents, when I read the book I wondered if the young girl Lina Graf could be Rey's mother...the children were left on their own to fend for themselves in an unknown world, the girl is both a pilot and a mechanical genius and they're running away from imperials with a droid containing maps. Also, Lina Graf's hairstyle from the back is interesting.



The main antagonist wants to capture these kids and send them to an imperial academy because he thinks they have great potential. However, its not clear if either of the children is force sensitive.



And back to the topic of garbled transmissions, Lina and her brother Milo intercept both imperial transmissions as well as rebel transmissions in Wild Space....this means both factions are fighting there as well.

@panki

That sounds really interesting but it looks like:
Spoiler:

The series is set while Ezra(and by default Luke and Leia)are still newborns so by the time Rey is born Lina would have to be her 40s so maybe she could be her grandmother?
@CienaRee

Spoiler:
I got the impression Lina was around the same age as Ezra, Luke, Leia ....maybe Jyn's age at the most....this series is set when the Empire is already quite well established and now expanding into Wild Space....I don't think they've officially confirmed how many years have passed since the establishment of the Empire but in the second book, we know the rebellion has started and the rebels are trying to unite calling others through transmissions to join them....going by this, I would say Lina and Milo Graf could easily be younger than Ezra since the rebels across the galaxy are only uniting in season 3 of Rebels.

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Re: AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

Post by CienaRee on Wed 1 Mar - 17:04

panki wrote:
CienaRee wrote:
panki wrote:
ISeeAnIsland wrote:
spoiler - secret Imperial labs?:

In addition to the secret lab on Jakku, Brentin mentioned how they'd once intercepted a garbled transmission from a suspected secret Imperial lab of some kind in Wild Space.  If Wild Space and the Unknown Regions are somewhat close together, and we know that Jakku was thought of as a "last stop before the Unknown Regions," could this set up a scenario where Rey's origins are linked to a secret lab of some sort, and she was dumped/dropped off on Jakku?
@ISeeAnIsland

Wild Space is all the space beyond the known borders of the GFFA...the Unknown Regions also partly falls into Wild Space but this is specifically an area just beyond the Western Reaches and Outer Rim. I have seen something in another canon book series that matches this speculation about  imperials in Wild Space quite nicely.

Spoiler:
There is a canon series called "Adventures in Wild Space" where the Graf family (parents and their two children) are exploring and mapping wild space. Imperials turn up and capture the parents, and force them to work for them in a situation very similar to that of Jyn Erso, except that the parents could still be alive.

The mother manages to transmit some important maps of Wild Space that the imperials want into the family droid which she built....and the brother and sister are on the run with this droid, evading imperials who want the maps. Even Darth Vader has an interest in getting hold of the maps for the Emperor. The imperials are expanding their influence beyond the known galaxy and into Wild Space.

On the topic of Rey's  parents, when I read the book I wondered if the young girl Lina Graf could be Rey's mother...the children were left on their own to fend for themselves in an unknown world, the girl is both a pilot and a mechanical genius and they're running away from imperials with a droid containing maps. Also, Lina Graf's hairstyle from the back is interesting.



The main antagonist wants to capture these kids and send them to an imperial academy because he thinks they have great potential. However, its not clear if either of the children is force sensitive.



And back to the topic of garbled transmissions, Lina and her brother Milo intercept both imperial transmissions as well as rebel transmissions in Wild Space....this means both factions are fighting there as well.

@panki

That sounds really interesting but it looks like:
Spoiler:

The series is set while Ezra(and by default Luke and Leia)are still newborns so by the time Rey is born Lina would have to be her 40s so maybe she could be her grandmother?
@CienaRee

Spoiler:
I got the impression Lina was around the same age as Ezra, Luke, Leia ....maybe Jyn's age at the most....this series is set when the Empire is already quite well established and now expanding into Wild Space....I don't think they've officially confirmed how many years have passed since the establishment of the Empire but in the second book, we know the rebellion has started and the rebels are trying to unite calling others through transmissions to join them....going by this, I would say Lina and Milo Graf could easily be younger than Ezra since the rebels across the galaxy are only uniting in season 3 of Rebels.
@panki
Spoiler:

I could be totally wrong since I haven't read these books yet but from bits and pieces it seems like Ezra is still an infant in them and the author seemes to have confirmed it on twitter?This actually cofnsued some fans because it means that the Empire weapons,shittles,etc(like the ones Tarkin and Vader use) were created like a week after the Empire fell and that seems to contradict other info we've got.
But it would make much more sense if Lina is the same age or slightly older than Luke,Leia and Ezra since it took a while for people to start seeing the Empire as an opressive governemnt at the beggining they loved the idea of the Republci transforming into an Empire.
Ad it seems like the Rebel Aliance will be officially fromed in this season of Rebels and they seem to appear in the books so it's kind of contradictory.

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