Rey's Lineage Discussion II

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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by spacebaby45678 on Wed 1 Feb - 22:28

Gemini wrote:@Frolickingfizzgig

Who said anything about bragging?

When/if the time comes I will be happy that I was right in my reading of the film(film language). And I will celebrate but it's not to make anyone feel bad or whatever. And if it's right it would mean that the stuff like the ending is most certainly pointing at rey kenobi.

The evidence is silent and mostly visual. It's Like we can tell kylo wants rey because of the way he looks at her. Imo you can tell who she is simply because of certain things they have visually presented.

its always  perplexed me how people dismiss strong visual storytelling. It's just as strong as dialogue if not stronger in any kind of film.

More often then not, visual storytelling will hint at a lot more than dialogue ever could. It's because of visuals, not dialogue that I could tell exactly who was gonna die from Negan in the walking dead for example.
@Gemini




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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 1 Feb - 22:36

Gemini wrote:And I can bet my left foot, based off of how they have already presented rey kenobi in tfa, you won't get much dialogue or worded explanation in The Last Jedi or episode 9.

It's going to all/mostly be visual (5 minute vision at the most)with little to no dialogue. Just a guess based off of what we already have.

Save the explanation for the kenobi film they are deliberately waiting to release after episode 9 according to inside sources.
@Gemini
I think we've had this conversation enough times for me to know exactly where it's going to go and how it'll end, plus you've made a few references to "insider information" that you have yet to substantiate. I'm not saying I don't believe you, just that you happen to have more information than the rest of us, which isn't exactly conducive to debate. You should definitely bring this topic back after you've released the information so we can all discuss it together.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Gemini on Wed 1 Feb - 22:36

spacebaby45678 wrote:
Gemini wrote:@Frolickingfizzgig

Who said anything about bragging?

When/if the time comes I will be happy that I was right in my reading of the film(film language). And I will celebrate but it's not to make anyone feel bad or whatever. And if it's right it would mean that the stuff like the ending is most certainly pointing at rey kenobi.

The evidence is silent and mostly visual. It's Like we can tell kylo wants rey because of the way he looks at her. Imo you can tell who she is simply because of certain things they have visually presented.

its always  perplexed me how people dismiss strong visual storytelling. It's just as strong as dialogue if not stronger in any kind of film.

More often then not, visual storytelling will hint at a lot more than dialogue ever could. It's because of visuals, not dialogue that I could tell exactly who was gonna die from Negan in the walking dead for example.
@Gemini




xd
@spacebaby45678

Exactly, no words and what you get is yin yang and mustafar and hints of redemption. Reylo redemption. Red saber extinguished? Both holding blue saber to the heavens?

Imo If by the time you see that fight and you can't see who they both are representing (anakin and obibwan and yin yang) and you can't read from it what's going to happen (redemption) then there's no point debating, you either see or you dont I guess. All down to personal interpretation
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 1 Feb - 22:39

@Gemini

I agree entirely that visual storytelling is the most important part of a movie. I work with advertising and I'm working on a PhD in Visual Arts, so I can guarantee you that everything in a movie/magazine/cover/musical clip is deliberate.

However, I try not to get excited about supposed visual clues now because we don't have the full picture. We can draw visual parallels in the Sequel Trilogy because we know the Original Trilogy. Without the source material, that would've been impossible. The same thing could be said about TFA. We don't know how the story will play out, and some things we see (and are there!) can be related to a very different narrative. There's also the possibility that some things will change in the last minute (i.e. Carrie's death probably writing the plot), and our interpretations may become invalid.

Just my two cents about people not being convinced by visual clues (and personally, why I try not to engage in them even though I'm professionally qualified to do so). By the way, I think you're right about Rey being a Kenobi or a mentor-like figure for the Skywalkers in the Sequel Trilogy.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Gemini on Wed 1 Feb - 22:42

@spacebaby45678

Didnt someone in the production say that the ending fight  shows you where it's going? And they were getting annoyed that if you couldn't see it then tough luck lol
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by spacebaby45678 on Wed 1 Feb - 22:47

Gemini wrote:
spacebaby45678 wrote:
Gemini wrote:@Frolickingfizzgig

Who said anything about bragging?

When/if the time comes I will be happy that I was right in my reading of the film(film language). And I will celebrate but it's not to make anyone feel bad or whatever. And if it's right it would mean that the stuff like the ending is most certainly pointing at rey kenobi.

The evidence is silent and mostly visual. It's Like we can tell kylo wants rey because of the way he looks at her. Imo you can tell who she is simply because of certain things they have visually presented.

its always  perplexed me how people dismiss strong visual storytelling. It's just as strong as dialogue if not stronger in any kind of film.

More often then not, visual storytelling will hint at a lot more than dialogue ever could. It's because of visuals, not dialogue that I could tell exactly who was gonna die from Negan in the walking dead for example.
@Gemini




xd
@spacebaby45678

Exactly, no words and what you get is yin yang and mustafar and hints of redemption. Reylo redemption. Red saber extinguished? Both holding blue saber to the heavens?

Imo If by the time you see that fight and you can't see who they both are representing (anakin and obibwan and yin yang) and you can't read from it what's going to happen (redemption) then there's no point debating, you either see or you dont I guess. All down to personal interpretation
@Gemini

Anne Lancashire, professor of Cinema Studies and Drama at the University of Toronto

Repeating the patterns of plot and myth, Lancashire argues, gives the saga, among other things, “a sense of repeating, increasingly complex cycles of human experience,” within individual lives, from one generation to the next, and “within the overall movement of Anakin’s entire life from boyhood to death.” 10

In addition: “[The repeated patterns] also allow, through variations, an emotionally and intellectually complicating emphasis upon difference and change. The broad pattern of human life, from youth to maturity to death, remains constant, but individual circumstances within the pattern inevitably differ, creating different possibilities and problems.” 11

It’s also worth mentioning that the sense of repeating cycles is not only personal, but also political as the films, taken as a whole, reflect the perpetual rise and fall of democracies (the Republic) and dictatorships (the Empire).

Overall, though, Lancashire sees the repetitions as playing a significant part in the design and purpose of the films.



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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed 1 Feb - 22:47

Gemini wrote:@Frolickingfizzgig

Who said anything about bragging?

When/if the time comes I will be happy that I was right in my reading of the film(film language). And I will celebrate but it's not to make anyone feel bad or whatever. And if it's right it would mean that the stuff like the ending is most certainly pointing at rey kenobi.

The evidence is silent and mostly visual. It's Like we can tell kylo wants rey because of the way he looks at her. Imo you can tell who she is simply because of certain things they have visually presented.

its always  perplexed me how people dismiss strong visual storytelling. It's just as strong as dialogue if not stronger in any kind of film.

More often then not, visual storytelling will hint at a lot more than dialogue ever could. It's because of visuals, not dialogue that I could tell exactly who was gonna die from Negan in the walking dead for example.
@Gemini

I don't think anyone is dismissing visual storytelling. Heck, there would be no Reylo without visual storytelling... and your observations about all that have been spot on.

But it's just that, at the end of the day, these films are for the GA. If this puzzle is supposed to be solvable at this point, I feel like they wouldn't make clues so obscure that only the extremely film-literate and SW-canon-literate are able to spot them. In Reylo, the visual storytelling is compounded with classic tropes, body language, sounds, you name it... things that every regular Joe and Jane should, theoretically, be able to recognise. (And recognising them doesn't mean that you know where the story is headed, just that you notice the dynamic.)

And even that turned out to be too subtle. Reylo is popular, yes, but I honestly would have expected more people to pick up on the dynamic because the compound effect wasn't really all that subtle. Turns out that much of the audience needs things s-p-e-l-l-e-d o-u-t for them.

Which is not to say Rey can't turn out to be a Kenobi. I just don't think the story means us to guess it at this point, if she is.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Gemini on Wed 1 Feb - 22:52

Piper Maru wrote:@Gemini

I agree entirely that visual storytelling is the most important part of a movie. I work with advertising and I'm working on a PhD in Visual Arts, so I can guarantee you that everything in a movie/magazine/cover/musical clip is deliberate.

However, I try not to get excited about supposed visual clues now because we don't have the full picture. We can draw visual parallels in the Sequel Trilogy because we know the Original Trilogy. Without the source material, that would've been impossible. The same thing could be said about TFA. We don't know how the story will play out, and some things we see (and are there!) can be related to a very different narrative. There's also the possibility that some things will change in the last minute (i.e. Carrie's death probably writing the plot), and our interpretations may become invalid.

Just my two cents about people not being convinced by visual clues (and personally, why I try not to engage in them even though I'm professionally qualified to do so). By the way, I think you're right about Rey being a Kenobi or a mentor-like figure for the Skywalkers in the Sequel Trilogy.
@Piper Maru

Thing is I've worked in film for 10 years and it's an old trick. It's saturated with visual and thematic clues throughout the beginning middle and end, so that when you get the full picture you can see that it was there all along. And what makes me 95% certain that the final picture is rey kenobi? It  is because Of another old film gospel. You don't add a ton random kenobi crap (especially at the end shot) into a movie or any pointless crap into a movie if it doesn't serve any baring to the ending of a story.  That's what happening with reylo in the movie too. Subtle clues which won't be so subtle later. I just cant see these clues being meaningless when they happen at the key moments in her character development. and I just can't see her holding the saber out to Luke as meaning anything other than kenobi. It's Star Wars and the last thing we see is this unidentified girl doing an incredibly significant obi wan thing.

And obi wan calling out to Rey? It impacts the narrative because she hears him calling her name, there's no way she won't ask who that was calling her name l, how he knows her, why was he calling to her. She'll ask Luke. And with that one line, rey and obi are entwined in some way already.


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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by spacebaby45678 on Wed 1 Feb - 22:52

Gemini wrote:@spacebaby45678

Didnt someone in the production say that the ending fight  shows you where it's going? And they were getting annoyed that if you couldn't see it then tough luck lol
@Gemini

I think I remember that, I bet it is back in the OG thread...
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Maria Antonietta on Wed 1 Feb - 22:53

CienaRee wrote:
Helix wrote:
Piper Maru wrote:I was reading some other boards today and I was shocked by the fanboys claiming that if Rey isn't a Skywalker they wouldn't care for her. This is so disrespectful to her character and honestly a demonstration of how toxic fanboys can be.

I'm against Rey Skywalker because I fear that EVERYTHING about her will be, actually, about Luke. The discovery of her Force powers out of nowhere was an amazing moment in TFA. If she is Luke's daughter, everything will be resumed to "oh of course she is good, she is Luke's daughter!!". The quest for her family, her main driving force, will be all about Luke. Her main conflict with the antagonist (Kylo Ren) will become a case of "the Skywalker to kick the evil Skywalker's a**" or, at the best, "the Skywalker who'll show the path of the Light for the evil Skywalker".'

It's just terrible writing all along, and really hope they don't pull this on us.

I'm fine with Rey Random, Rey Kenobi, Rey Palpatine, Rey the Hutt or whatever. Rey Skywalker would be the worst.
@Piper Maru

This is exactly how I feel on both accounts. Honestly I don't want her and her power/character reduced to a bloodline. She's strong because she's a Skywalker!! ... Nah. I'd rather she be strong on her own.

The only liking her if she's a Skywalker thing is such a disservice to her character. My love of a character has never hinged on their bloodline. It also does take away from her story, people will only refer to her and her importance in relation to Luke.
@Helix

I agree.I've said it before but while I'm interesting in who Rey's parents are it's more to do with how it can help Re as a character.Kylo is good example of how not truly knowing where you come from(that Vader is his grandfather)can led to potentually destructive consequences where you can be feel lost and confused and thus become easy pray for people who want to use you for your power.I think Rey knowing where she comes from can only make her stronger because knowing all the facts will help her shape her own future for the better.
Most Rey Solo and Rey Skywalker fans only care about how Rey being related to the OT3 will make their legacy better and more important because apparently the good they've done for the Galaxy and how they're remembered as war heroes doesn't count because Kylo fell to the DS.
@CienaRee

Yep, it's all about Luke. And when they say that Ben isn't really a skywalker, you can smell misogyny towards Leia, because clearly she doesn't count, at least for them. Sad sad fanboys
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 1 Feb - 22:54

Gemini wrote:@spacebaby45678

Didnt someone in the production say that the ending fight  shows you where it's going? And they were getting annoyed that if you couldn't see it then tough luck lol
@Gemini

I agree, that fight is the most important scene of The Force Awakens, and the main reason I give credit to the Rey Kenobi theory. That fight is a reference to three iconic fights in the Skywalker saga.

A New Hope: Darth Vader x Obi-Wan Kenobi (villain is looking for the hero; hero finds his way through an enemy base; hero stumbles upon villain; they fight; hero "bests" the villain through inner power/spiritual ability and ascends to a higher plane of existence)

Phantom Menace: Obi Wan Kenobi / Qui Gon Jinn x Darth Maul (villain stumbles upon hero and his father figure; villain kills the father figure in front of the hero; villain goes after the hero; hero is sad and wants revenge; hero is about to lose and fall to his death; hero summons a lightsaber out of nowhere; villain with far better experience is killed by the hero in a shocking turn of events)

Revenge of the Sith: Obi Wan Kenobi x Anakin Skywalker (villain goes after hero wanting revenge; hero and villain fight with raw power instead of technique because they're extremely pissed at each other; the fight happens in an extreme weather climate; hero gets the upper hand and disfigures the villain; instead of killing the villain, the hero walks away leaving the villain there to be rescued; the mentor/apprentice relationship between the characters is shaken)

All those fights involved a Kenobi. All of those fights happened in the climax. All of those fights say more about Obi-Wan as a character (clever, strong, compassionate, has the higher moral ground). All of those fights involve strong mentor/apprentice parallels.

So yeah. That fight is important. And I think people spend too much time thinking only about A New Hope parallels that they forget about the other movies of the saga.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 1 Feb - 22:57

Gemini wrote:
Piper Maru wrote:@Gemini

I agree entirely that visual storytelling is the most important part of a movie. I work with advertising and I'm working on a PhD in Visual Arts, so I can guarantee you that everything in a movie/magazine/cover/musical clip is deliberate.

However, I try not to get excited about supposed visual clues now because we don't have the full picture. We can draw visual parallels in the Sequel Trilogy because we know the Original Trilogy. Without the source material, that would've been impossible. The same thing could be said about TFA. We don't know how the story will play out, and some things we see (and are there!) can be related to a very different narrative. There's also the possibility that some things will change in the last minute (i.e. Carrie's death probably writing the plot), and our interpretations may become invalid.

Just my two cents about people not being convinced by visual clues (and personally, why I try not to engage in them even though I'm professionally qualified to do so). By the way, I think you're right about Rey being a Kenobi or a mentor-like figure for the Skywalkers in the Sequel Trilogy.
@Piper Maru

Thing is I've worked in film for 10 years and it's an old trick. It's saturated with visual and thematic clues throughout the beginning middle and end, so that when you get the full picture you can see that it was there all along. And what makes me 95% certain that the final picture is rey kenobi? It  is because Of another old film gospel. You don't add a ton random kenobi crap (especially at the end shot) into a movie or any pointless crap into a movie if it doesn't serve any baring to the ending of a story.  That's what happening with reylo in the movie too. Subtle clues which won't be so subtle later. I just cant see these clues being meaningless when they happen at the key moments in her character development. and I just can't see her holding the saber out to Luke as meaning anything other than kenobi. It's Star Wars and the last thing we see is this unidentified girl doing an incredibly significant obi wan thing.
@Gemini

I agree with you. As I said, I work in the creative area as well, and my main degree is in Visual Arts. So we spend a whole lot of time analyzing every single frame of everything because the devil is in the details (and so is the meaning of the work).

I strongly believe that Rey will have a mentor role in the Sequel Trilogy, not in the sense of teaching the Skywalkers to use the Force, but as a balance point, a moral compass and a beacon light after all the s*** the Skywalkers pulled in the galaxy.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Saracene on Thu 2 Feb - 1:44

Gemini wrote:
MyOnlyHope wrote:
Gemini wrote:But I'm petty tired with pablos tweets being taken to mean something when he clearly does not say no.

Rey random is the popular opinion on here and there's no point in debating lol.

I have first hand info from those whom auditioned strongly suggesting that's rey is and always was a kenobi right from the very start, day one. (which will be revealed in a podcast.) There are countless other tweets and info from insiders and Pablo also strongly hinting she has never changed from day one and that she's a kenobi. All this is seemingly totally ignored the second a vague response from Pablo emerges neither confirming or denying anything. It's just a pointless debate. I mean an insider (AB) strongly claiming that she is related to obibwan is now totally forgotten simply because once again  Pablo didn't confirm or deny anything when it comes to rey kenobi? But hey he didnt say yes or no so it must be no right?
@Gemini
No, the popular opinion on here is not Rey Random. This board is mostly filled with people who are prepared for almost any origin story where Rey is concerned (a.k.a. we don't really care so long as it makes sense and adds to an overall engaging narrative). Most of us (speaking for others here, but I believe this to be the case) just don't see sufficient evidence for any theory as of yet. No conclusion has been reached, so we're keeping our options wide open. I think most of us are content just waiting for the movie on this one. Wink
@MyOnlyHope

May I ask a question to you and all who feel that there's no strong kenobi evidence  in tfa pre production, production and post production, tweets,inside info, spoilers as well as tfa as a movie itself.

If she turns out to be a kenobi, will you all still think that everything inside and outside of  tfa pointing towards kenobi (that have been outlined multiple times) is still weak and not strong evidence?

Like how her whole journey in tfa is a glorified journey of obibwan and anakins saber making its way to Luke

The theme of her being leias only hope, her being Luke's guide back to the quest, her connection with kylo..etc

Will you all still think that the ending scene where she uses the saber as a prompt to get Luke on the quest and everything mentioned above, is not pointing to kenobi or will you all just suddenly accept it?

Because if it's the latter, I find that interesting
@Gemini

Well to make a comparison, I'm very certain of Kylo's redemption and romantic Reylo, yet I'm sceptical about all the secret hearts people point out in the film, or the sun/son metaphor, and personally don't take them to be clues about anything. Looking for symbolism can be interesting, but I don't treat it as evidence because you can never be sure whether it's something the creators actually intended, or what it is exactly they wanted to convey.

If Rey is revealed to be a Kenobi and then JJ comes out and says, yes that last scene in TFA was totally meant to evoke her heritage, well then that's a fact and it's no longer up for the debate.

I'm BTW in visual arts and do artwork for hobby, and when people see my stuff they point out ideas and metaphors which I never ever intended.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Piper Maru on Thu 2 Feb - 2:16

Saracene wrote:
Gemini wrote:
MyOnlyHope wrote:
Gemini wrote:But I'm petty tired with pablos tweets being taken to mean something when he clearly does not say no.

Rey random is the popular opinion on here and there's no point in debating lol.

I have first hand info from those whom auditioned strongly suggesting that's rey is and always was a kenobi right from the very start, day one. (which will be revealed in a podcast.) There are countless other tweets and info from insiders and Pablo also strongly hinting she has never changed from day one and that she's a kenobi. All this is seemingly totally ignored the second a vague response from Pablo emerges neither confirming or denying anything. It's just a pointless debate. I mean an insider (AB) strongly claiming that she is related to obibwan is now totally forgotten simply because once again  Pablo didn't confirm or deny anything when it comes to rey kenobi? But hey he didnt say yes or no so it must be no right?
@Gemini
No, the popular opinion on here is not Rey Random. This board is mostly filled with people who are prepared for almost any origin story where Rey is concerned (a.k.a. we don't really care so long as it makes sense and adds to an overall engaging narrative). Most of us (speaking for others here, but I believe this to be the case) just don't see sufficient evidence for any theory as of yet. No conclusion has been reached, so we're keeping our options wide open. I think most of us are content just waiting for the movie on this one. Wink
@MyOnlyHope

May I ask a question to you and all who feel that there's no strong kenobi evidence  in tfa pre production, production and post production, tweets,inside info, spoilers as well as tfa as a movie itself.

If she turns out to be a kenobi, will you all still think that everything inside and outside of  tfa pointing towards kenobi (that have been outlined multiple times) is still weak and not strong evidence?

Like how her whole journey in tfa is a glorified journey of obibwan and anakins saber making its way to Luke

The theme of her being leias only hope, her being Luke's guide back to the quest, her connection with kylo..etc

Will you all still think that the ending scene where she uses the saber as a prompt to get Luke on the quest and everything mentioned above, is not pointing to kenobi or will you all just suddenly accept it?

Because if it's the latter, I find that interesting
@Gemini

Well to make a comparison, I'm very certain of Kylo's redemption and romantic Reylo, yet I'm sceptical about all the secret hearts people point out in the film, or the sun/son metaphor, and personally don't take them to be clues about anything. Looking for symbolism can be interesting, but I don't treat it as evidence because you can never be sure whether it's something the creators actually intended, or what it is exactly they wanted to convey.

If Rey is revealed to be a Kenobi and then JJ comes out and says, yes that last scene in TFA was totally meant to evoke her heritage, well then that's a fact and it's no longer up for the debate.

I'm BTW in visual arts and do artwork for hobby, and when people see my stuff they point out ideas and metaphors which I never ever intended.
@Saracene

As we learn in Art School, our intentions are irrelevant. What matters is the final product. The message, the spectators and their interpretation. If you planned something X but it came across as Y, you failed. That's how art works and that's why creators will never be 100% in control of their art.

Of course people will find random things in your work (which is a part of the process) and overanalyzing everything will only make you crazy. But symbolism/semiotics are heavily used, especially in movies/advertising.

That being said, I don't buy the "look at the hearts" either. Kylo Ren and Rey scenes are meaningful for objective reasons (i.e. choke shots; deliberate color contrasts; deliberate use of the height difference between Ridley and Driver to establish divergence in power; unusual silence in a movie filled with over the top soundtrack), not because there are hearts or whatever in Adam Driver's eyes.


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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Saracene on Thu 2 Feb - 2:39

@Piper Maru Symbolism is used, yes, but sometimes it’s hard to know what exactly this or that thing symbolises, especially when the story involves mystery boxes, cliffhangers, etc.

I remember when Half-Blood Prince came out and its ending was hotly debated, many people were so sure that Dumbledore wasn’t truly gone, because of the image of a phoenix Harry briefly sees during his funeral, and phoenix symbolises resurrection etc. But nope, Dumbledore was really dead and remained so.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Gemini on Thu 2 Feb - 7:50

Saracene wrote:@Piper Maru Symbolism is used, yes, but sometimes it’s hard to know what exactly this or that thing symbolises, especially when the story involves mystery boxes, cliffhangers, etc.

I remember when Half-Blood Prince came out and its ending was hotly debated, many people were so sure that Dumbledore wasn’t truly gone, because of the image of a phoenix Harry briefly sees during his funeral, and phoenix symbolises resurrection etc. But nope, Dumbledore was really dead and remained so.
@Saracene

But this imo is not particularly ambiguous with the ending. It's trumpets blaring because things in Star Wars are iconic and when iconic things are mimicked in important stages of a hero journeybin star wars, I'd say it's a strong indicator. Herpassing the saber to Luke to get him on the quest (as is also written in the script there) is iconic and not easily misinterpreted?  It's exactly what obi wan did no ifs  and buts.  And then the argument that call backs mean nothing. They do mean something when it's based around strong moments of character development I think.

jjs script leak which spells out what's going on. It's a plea to get him to answer the call.

And the way it's shot. This is just based off my knowledge of how you use film language to convey something. Like angles and music and build up even down to the amount of time she is holding the saber out to him. It's supposed to be a revealing scene and goose bump inducing and also somewhat confirming something. It's not meant to say"hey wtf is she doing?"

And I think possibly this is where Daisy is coming from in that answer she gave. When it comes to who she is, TFA answers a lot of it. There's not much evidence she is a random, she is presented as a secret someone through out the whole movie and the movie has many subtle and not so subtle kenobi clues.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Saracene on Thu 2 Feb - 8:48

Gemini wrote:
Saracene wrote:@Piper Maru Symbolism is used, yes, but sometimes it’s hard to know what exactly this or that thing symbolises, especially when the story involves mystery boxes, cliffhangers, etc.

I remember when Half-Blood Prince came out and its ending was hotly debated, many people were so sure that Dumbledore wasn’t truly gone, because of the image of a phoenix Harry briefly sees during his funeral, and phoenix symbolises resurrection etc. But nope, Dumbledore was really dead and remained so.
@Saracene

But this imo is not particularly ambiguous with the ending. It's trumpets blaring because things in Star Wars are iconic and when iconic things are mimicked in important stages of a hero journeybin star wars, I'd say it's a strong indicator. Herpassing the saber to Luke to get him on the quest (as is also written in the script there) is iconic and not easily misinterpreted?  It's exactly what obi wan did no ifs  and buts.  And then the argument that call backs mean nothing. They do mean something when it's based around strong moments of character development I think.

jjs script leak which spells out what's going on. It's a plea to get him to answer the call.

And the way it's shot. This is just based off my knowledge of how you use film language to convey something. Like angles and music and build up even down to the amount of time she is holding the saber out to him. It's supposed to be a revealing scene and goose bump inducing and also somewhat confirming something. It's not meant to say"hey wtf is she doing?"

And I think possibly this is where Daisy is coming from in that answer she gave. When it comes to who she is, TFA answers a lot of it. There's not much evidence she is a random, she is presented as a secret someone through out the whole movie and the movie has many subtle and not so subtle kenobi clues.
@Gemini

I agree that the ending is all trumpets blaring, but IMO it doesn't really require Rey having Kenobi heritage to be meaningful or important. It works fine without it and I've seen other people analyse the scene and attach all sorts of other meanings and interpretations to it. To some it actually clinches the theory that Rey is Luke's daughter.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by spacebaby45678 on Thu 2 Feb - 9:06

Since none of the symbols/visual storytelling, can mean anything for sure... Maybe Rey is Luke's daughter and or Rey Solo and all of symbolism behind what we thought was Reylo does not mean that at all.

I mean if Rey is a Solo, please burn all that tumblr art out of my brain now Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Saracene on Thu 2 Feb - 9:14

spacebaby45678 wrote:Since none of the symbols/visual storytelling, can mean anything for sure... Maybe Rey is Luke's daughter and or Rey Solo and all of symbolism behind what we thought was Reylo does not mean that at all.
@spacebaby45678

That's the exact reason why I find it best to rely on other things than the symbols/visual storytelling. My reasons for believing in Reylo have nothing to do with these.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by spacebaby45678 on Thu 2 Feb - 9:17

Saracene wrote:
spacebaby45678 wrote:Since none of the symbols/visual storytelling, can mean anything for sure... Maybe Rey is Luke's daughter and or Rey Solo and all of symbolism behind what we thought was Reylo does not mean that at all.
@spacebaby45678

That's the exact reason why I find it best to rely on other things than the symbols/visual storytelling. My reasons for believing in Reylo have nothing to do with these.
@Saracene

If you don't mind my asking what are those reasons?
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by spacebaby45678 on Thu 2 Feb - 9:36

What did RJ read as a primer for EP8?

to which Rian responded ‘Modern Man In Search of a Soul is a good place to start for Jung. Bly - A Little Book About The Human Shadow’.

What are these books about? SYMBOLS/ARCHETYPES....

Strictly speaking, Jungian archetypes refer to unclear underlying forms or the archetypes-as-such from which emerge images and motifs such as the mother, the child, the trickster, and the flood among others. It is history, culture and personal context that shape these manifest representations thereby giving them their specific content


George the Hipster martian wants to visit New York and have lunch, never having been on the planet earth he will have to figure things out fast if he is going to visit BillyBurg in Brooklyn to scope out new and cool places to have his microbrewed beer...

What is the first thing he notices walking the streets of New York ?



Humans! Thousands of them... each and everyone walking, striding,holding things with their hands... the hands and walking of all these humans mean nothing to him at first...

but then he see this



Now what is meaningless, has a new and IMPORTANT meaning because it has context and it will save his life if he quickly learns and understand what is it's utility...

Now does everyone in New York heed the meaning of the Hand? No, people are run over everyday and killed, they J walk etc... these are your Reywalkers & Solotruthers... because people get a symbol wrong does not mean some won't get it right.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Saracene on Thu 2 Feb - 10:03

spacebaby45678 wrote:
Saracene wrote:
spacebaby45678 wrote:Since none of the symbols/visual storytelling, can mean anything for sure... Maybe Rey is Luke's daughter and or Rey Solo and all of symbolism behind what we thought was Reylo does not mean that at all.
@spacebaby45678

That's the exact reason why I find it best to rely on other things than the symbols/visual storytelling. My reasons for believing in Reylo have nothing to do with these.
@Saracene

If you don't mind my asking what are those reasons?
@spacebaby45678

Just the general way stories tend to work, I guess, how particular setups tends to play out, and how it all adds up together.

1. When a three-part story introduces a character with an inner conflict, this conflict is not getting resolved in the very first film. So if you then have the character commit an act that makes him look totally irredeemable in the first film, I think it’s safe to say that the opposite is going to happen.

2. If Kylo is getting a redemption arc, it then makes sense that it will revolve around the series' main character, i.e. Rey.

3. "Lost daughter" storyline doesn't fit anywhere into the Skywalker family tragedy we've already been told about, and statistically, cousins dynamic is virtually non-existent in films. So I don't think Rey is Luke's daughter.

4. What motivation is a young guy most likely to have in a story involving a young girl he's not related to, in a series that's all about big, simple, sweeping emotions?

5. One-sided love can work fine for a redemption storyline, but can it really sustain a three-part story and is there enough drama in Rey simply coming to feel pity for Kylo?

That's it in the nutshell Smile
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by spacebaby45678 on Thu 2 Feb - 10:12

Saracene wrote:
spacebaby45678 wrote:
Saracene wrote:
spacebaby45678 wrote:Since none of the symbols/visual storytelling, can mean anything for sure... Maybe Rey is Luke's daughter and or Rey Solo and all of symbolism behind what we thought was Reylo does not mean that at all.
@spacebaby45678

That's the exact reason why I find it best to rely on other things than the symbols/visual storytelling. My reasons for believing in Reylo have nothing to do with these.
@Saracene

If you don't mind my asking what are those reasons?
@spacebaby45678

Just the general way stories tend to work, I guess, how particular setups tends to play out, and how it all adds up together.

1. When a three-part story introduces a character with an inner conflict, this conflict is not getting resolved in the very first film. So if you then have the character commit an act that makes him look totally irredeemable in the first film, I think it’s safe to say that the opposite is going to happen.

2. If Kylo is getting a redemption arc, it then makes sense that it will revolve around the series' main character, i.e. Rey.

3. "Lost daughter" storyline doesn't fit anywhere into the Skywalker family tragedy we've already been told about, and statistically, cousins dynamic is virtually non-existent in films. So I don't think Rey is Luke's daughter.

4. What motivation is a young guy most likely to have in a story involving a young girl he's not related to, in a series that's all about big, simple, sweeping emotions?

5. One-sided love can work fine for a redemption storyline, but can it really sustain a three-part story and is there enough drama in Rey simply coming to feel pity for Kylo?

That's it in the nutshell Smile
@Saracene

1. Your first female protaganist/heroine in the saga, and you she is going to fall in love? By narrative evidence alone Rey is on the Obi Wan/Luke jedi monk story arc... and they ended up with no romance either of them in the PT OR OT

2.How do we know Kylo is getting a redemption arc? For many fans, patricide is a bridge burnt. No coming back.

3. Rey's backstory has not been told yet, so potentially it is all a big hoodwink by JJ... and Rey is Kylo's sister... Jaina & Jacen Solo... Kylo is really similar to Jacen Solo, especially the tipping point between light and dark.

4. Maybe Kylo seeks the forgiveness of his mother as motivation. Remember how much Anakin loved his mother...

5. Maybe Disney sees Kylo as Darth, and he won't be redeemed at all... and they will make parts 10-12 as Kylo as a Darth Vader character
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by spacebaby45678 on Thu 2 Feb - 11:01

@Saracene You know how I know Reylo is real? Visual storytelling, archetypes, myth... etc..

Bridal Carry... now to some this is the Monster & the maiden,





and they could legitmatly argue that but what makes it not monster/maiden but Hades Perspehone? The context... the magical spring forest...





what happens after, the monster unmasks and becomes a Bryonic figure/villian





Ah, so he is not a monster/creature.... we can cancel the Monster/Maiden mustache twirling villain... and yet so many people don't get it... because the symbolism is a language they are not yet familiar with but if like most here you read romances, bronte/austin, watched soaps it would be an easier read..

Now there are many symbols the audience will never get but the directors/set designers put them there anyway... why do they do that?



In Obi Wan's house is an  An aspergillum is used in Roman Catholic and Anglican ceremonies, including the Rite of Baptism and during the Easter Season.



Why put this symbol object there is MOST people will never notice it or see it or even understand it...? Because symbols operate on a subconscious level... when I saw ANH at 7 years old, did I know what that thing was? Nope.. but it is there as a symbol to let  you know that Obi Wan is a John the Baptist figure. Most of the GA will never know or care about it. Just like the hearts in the forest...

But yet, when it comes to Rey's lineage, suddenly symbols have no meaning? We develop symbolic illiteracy... Yet, Star Wars is now a Saga that has symbols and meaning of its own that it can now use to communicate with the audience... can directors and producers get it wrong? yes...One perfect example is the 2nd trailer when they used Burning Homestead over Rey's driving her speeder on Jakku.... they knew most of the audience associate that song with Luke.. so before the audience sees the movie they already believe her to be Luke's child, this is not a wrong assumption, I submit this was a mistake. Unless it wasn't and she really is Rey Skywalker.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Piper Maru on Thu 2 Feb - 11:07

spacebaby45678 wrote:
Saracene wrote:
spacebaby45678 wrote:
Saracene wrote:
spacebaby45678 wrote:Since none of the symbols/visual storytelling, can mean anything for sure... Maybe Rey is Luke's daughter and or Rey Solo and all of symbolism behind what we thought was Reylo does not mean that at all.
@spacebaby45678

That's the exact reason why I find it best to rely on other things than the symbols/visual storytelling. My reasons for believing in Reylo have nothing to do with these.
@Saracene

If you don't mind my asking what are those reasons?
@spacebaby45678

Just the general way stories tend to work, I guess, how particular setups tends to play out, and how it all adds up together.

1. When a three-part story introduces a character with an inner conflict, this conflict is not getting resolved in the very first film. So if you then have the character commit an act that makes him look totally irredeemable in the first film, I think it’s safe to say that the opposite is going to happen.

2. If Kylo is getting a redemption arc, it then makes sense that it will revolve around the series' main character, i.e. Rey.

3. "Lost daughter" storyline doesn't fit anywhere into the Skywalker family tragedy we've already been told about, and statistically, cousins dynamic is virtually non-existent in films. So I don't think Rey is Luke's daughter.

4. What motivation is a young guy most likely to have in a story involving a young girl he's not related to, in a series that's all about big, simple, sweeping emotions?

5. One-sided love can work fine for a redemption storyline, but can it really sustain a three-part story and is there enough drama in Rey simply coming to feel pity for Kylo?

That's it in the nutshell Smile
@Saracene

1. Your first female protaganist/heroine in the saga, and you she is going to fall in love? By narrative evidence alone Rey is on the Obi Wan/Luke jedi monk story arc... and they ended up with no romance either of them in the PT OR OT

2.How do we know Kylo is getting a redemption arc? For many fans, patricide is a bridge burnt. No coming back.

3. Rey's backstory has not been told yet, so potentially it is all a big hoodwink by JJ... and Rey is Kylo's sister... Jaina & Jacen Solo... Kylo is really similar to Jacen Solo, especially the tipping point between light and dark.

4. Maybe Kylo seeks the forgiveness of his mother as motivation. Remember how much Anakin loved his mother...

5. Maybe Disney sees Kylo as Darth, and he won't be redeemed at all... and they will make parts 10-12 as Kylo as a Darth Vader character
@spacebaby45678

To be quite honest, my reasons to ship Reylo are very similar to @Saracene. I talked about symbolism in the topic, but only because I think it's valid. Personally, I don't buy 10% of it.  

1 and 2) You don't make your main antagonist cross the Moral Event Horizon in the first part of a trilogy unless you want him to atone and go through a serious crysis of identity. It's basic story writing. If they wanted Kylo to be Darth Vader 2.0, he would kill Han Solo in Episode IX, without any timeframe left in the movie to show character development. Besides, several fans don't really care about the 'patricide' angle (which is very important, in my opinion). They're just pissed that he killed their favorite character and/or that Han Solo died trying to save his son and not snarking while piloting the Falcon. Personally, I think Kylo's path will be painful as hell, and I doubt he'll get a rainbow showing up at the end of his road. That said, Rey is the protagonist and she definitely needs to cross paths with him several times, therefore she will be responsible for his character development.

3) If they go down the "Rey Skywalker" path, they would make everything about her story actually about Luke. Her main quest (family) would end with him; the discovery of her powers (the twist from TFA and the movie's title) would be about him because OF COURSE SHE IS POWERFUL, she is Luke's daughter; the main conflict with the antagonist would be resumed to "the good Skywalker to kick the evil Skywalker a**". I'd be negatively surprised if they did this, because it would undermine her character in several levels, even if they manage to write a convincing backstory about Luke taking time off from his academy (or whatever the name is) to get laid, knock someone up, have a kid and then abandon said kid a junkyard. Besides, the "fighting cousins" dynamic doesn't really work, the stakes are too low, and unfortunate implications of the "sexual tension" (I'm paraphrasing from the media reviews here) between them would be off the charts. I doubt they want to repeat the Luke & Leia fiasco and attract negative PR to their golden egg's chicken franchise.

About Rey being a Solo... It would be really dumb to make the protagonist interact with her long lost parents in one movie, watch her long lost father being killed (without knowing he is the father), interact with her long lost brother and then... BAM, see these people you were with in the whole f****ing movie? Yeah, they were your family and one is dead, the other is evil, the other we don't know what's going to happen because the actress died and now you have to deal with it. Just nope.

4) Doubt it. It's clear that Kylo works as a contrast to Vader. Vader couldn't kill his son, Kylo killed his father. Anakin was tempted by the dark, Kylo was tempted by the light. Family will not save Kylo or be his morality pet, even if he cares about Leia (I believe he does, but it won't matter so much). You know what else Vader had in his life? Romantic love. And it screwed him. It makes sense if Kylo wants redemption through romantic love, being a foil to his grandfather.

5) I would believe Disney wanted a Darth Vader 2.0 if it wasn't for the points I made in 1/2.

Kylo will become more evil in Episode VIII and I have a hard time to believe that he'll become a good guy aligned with the Resistance, but it would be pointless to make a story about a "villain becoming even more evil" without any conflict whatsoever. If there's zero character development with Kylo Ren (for good or for worse) then there was no point in hiring Adam Driver (one of the biggest stars of the new generation, and I mean it, guy works with Scorsese already). There would be no reason to make a trilogy as well. Just end with Episode VII where he becomes Very Evil Indeed, Rey defeats him and finds Luke and c'est fini.


Last edited by Piper Maru on Thu 2 Feb - 11:29; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : i'm writing everything wrong today)
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