Rey's Lineage Discussion II

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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Mrs Ben Solo on Wed 26 Apr - 2:58

Mark and Rian have spoken, Reywalker is SO the big twist in TLJ ROFL https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/857049981194076160
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Helix on Wed 26 Apr - 3:17

@Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Mark and Rian have spoken, Reywalker is SO the big twist in TLJ ROFL https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/857049981194076160
@Mrs Ben Solo

Time to pack up our bags, guys. Its been fun. Razz

Eric Geller‏Verified account @ericgeller 1h1 hour ago
Replying to @rianjohnson @HamillHimself @THR

great job Mark now he's gonna cut all your dialogue

Great, now Luke is gonna just passive-aggressively force tweet at everyone in TLJ!
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Gemini on Sun 30 Apr - 20:59

the theme at the start of the last Jedi trailer  before we see rey is obi wan kenobi's theme from A New Hope





Also someone noticed how the theme which runs with the mysterious theme for obi in anh is very much like reys theme

Then reys theme plays and you hear "you're my only hope"

Truth in the music?
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by spacebaby45678 on Tue 2 May - 22:05

@Gemini wrote:the theme at the start of the last Jedi trailer  before we see rey is obi wan kenobi's theme from A New Hope





Also someone noticed how the theme which runs with the mysterious theme for obi in anh is very much like reys theme

Then reys theme plays and you hear "you're my only hope"

Truth in the music?
@Gemini

So as Daisy says, Luke does not know who Rey is... But Obi Wan knows Rey. So how come Ghost Obi Wan did not tell or forewarn Luke a scavenger girl from Jakku named Rey was coming to train as a jedi? Is Ghost Obi Wan still keeping secrets?

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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by snufkin on Wed 3 May - 1:29

That was #1 thing on my mind after first viewing, how Obi-Wan addresses her by name and says something directly to her about what's to come. Later we get the shock reveal of who Han and Leia named their kid after.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by TheBastardofMandalore on Wed 3 May - 6:03

@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@Gemini wrote:the theme at the start of the last Jedi trailer  before we see rey is obi wan kenobi's theme from A New Hope





Also someone noticed how the theme which runs with the mysterious theme for obi in anh is very much like reys theme

Then reys theme plays and you hear "you're my only hope"

Truth in the music?
@Gemini

So as Daisy says, Luke does not know who Rey is... But Obi Wan knows Rey. So how come Ghost Obi Wan did not tell or forewarn Luke a scavenger girl from Jakku named Rey was coming to train as a jedi? Is Ghost Obi Wan still keeping secrets?

@spacebaby45678

We all know Obi-Wan is the master of secrets when it comes to his past (Clone Wars anyone?). If Rey is his granddaughter, he's not going to reveal more than he has too. My guess is he's trying to kill two birds with one stone: 1) Get Luke back in the game 2) Get baby girl home to her family/people.

I have to admit I am curious though regarding Rey's decision by the end of episode 9. Will she decide to join the ranks of the new Jedi or go home to her people (if they're still alive)?
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by snufkin on Fri 5 May - 20:20

IDK if there's a specific thread on here for predictions regarding the big mysteries for the ST, but for Rey I'd predict it's not so much the who she's related to as the what happened to make these people leave her alone on Jakku as a small and vulnerable child and then disappear to never return for her. And that the pain/trauma of those two events drove Rey to stay put on Jakku rather than facing the truth and just leaving to be on her own in the universe.

The two biggest clues are that she has untapped/underutilized Force powers and that her parents disappeared after giving her instructions to wait for them. Those were used as justification for all of the Reywalker theories about how she was dumped on Jakku after the Jedi Academy Massacre speculation along with the likely mere coincidences (the sort you find in writers like Dickens and Austen) of LST and the Falcon also being on Jakku added fuel to those fires. It's pretty clear by now that she's not a blood relative and had been living as an orphan on Jakku for 9-10 years already when the bad s**t went down with Ben and Luke.

That said, those two main clues still stand, why would somebody leave a small vulnerable (albeit with a huge potential for wielding the Force) child alone on a place like Jakku with the vague request to wait, only to never return?  I can only think that it has something to do with Snoke and the First Order, especially given the tangential clues about Hux's stormtrooper program and Finn's admission to Rey that he was taken from his family by that group. "The Empire needs Children." Beyond that, given the clear agenda mentioned by Leia that Snoke targeted her child specifically is where you have room to speculate if Rey's family was targeted for a reason related to Force powers, the way Ben's was.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 5 May - 20:55

@snufkin wrote:IDK if there's a specific thread on here for predictions regarding the big mysteries for the ST, but for Rey I'd predict it's not so much the who she's related to as the what happened to make them leave her as a small and vulnerable child on Jakku and then disappear. The two biggest clues being that she has untapped/underutilized Force powers and the disappearance of her parents with instructions to wait for them were used as justification for all of the Reywalker theories about how she was dumped on Jakku after the Jedi Academy Massacre speculation. The likely mere coincidences (the sort you find in writers like Dickens and Austen) of LST and the Falcon also being on Jakku added fuel to those fires. It's pretty clear by now that she's not a blood relative and had been living as an orphan on Jakku for 9-10 years already when the bad s**t went down with Ben and Luke. That said, those two main clues still stand, why would somebody leave a small vulnerable (albeit with a huge potential for wielding the Force) child alone on a place like Jakku with the vague request to wait, only to never return? I can only think that it has something to do with Snoke and the First Order, especially given the tangential clues about Hux's stormtrooper program and Finn's admission to Rey that he was taken from his family by that group.

@snufkin

Not to mention that where she was left has to figure in. To put it bluntly, in Empire's End, Jakku is where S*** Went Down. It's also drummed into the reader's head that it's a last stopover before the Unknown Regions, where the Imperial survivors headed out to, following a call that Palpatine heard from the Dark side (presumably Snoke), and had given instructions for his followers to head (in the event that the Empire crumbled).

I see two possibilities for this to tie in with what happened to Rey:

1. Rey's parents were Imperial stragglers who were left on Jakku to clean up and close things out for the Empire (or running that secret Imperial lab), then left to go meet up with the rest of the Imperials...never to return. Perhaps they had some reservations about what they were heading out to, so they left Rey behind with the intention of returning, but they were killed in the UR? (Ties in with comments from a couple of seemingly in-the-know reddit commenters that Rey was born on Jakku...and Pablo has never debunked Rey being born there when directly asked.)

2. Rey's parents were part of the Imperial contingent that headed out to the Unknown Regions after the Battle of Jakku. They very likely did something to help Snoke in his rise to power...but then had second thoughts and/or didn't like where the First Order was headed, so they fled. Fearing for Rey's life (perhaps she would be targeted for her Force sensitivity?), they dropped her on Jakku out of desperation and left before they were caught and killed.

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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by snufkin on Fri 5 May - 21:11

@ISeeAnIsland - yes the where part of her abandonment is also critical. I like both theories, though would probably lean more towards #2 because Unkar Plutt doesn't seems like somebody you'd hire as a babysitter. A lot of the Rey dumped by his cousin theories talk about it being an act of desperation by somebody with their back up against the wall, which would work that scenario (it'd work for #1 too, only if they went with an escape plan in mind).

I'm also wondering if whatever story and character arc with Finn is tied up with his backstory being abducted and turned into a soldier via Hux's legacy program. And if that in turn uncovers details that are tied in with the events which led to Rey's abandonment. It'd certainly tie all three characters being taken away/separated from their families together.
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by darthbutterfingers on Fri 9 Jun - 6:23

I was thinking about the question of why Rey is on Jakku. So I was in Wikipedia looking at the Chinese practice of infanticide (1), in particular the practice of female infanticide or gendercide. I was looking because I wondered if this historical practice (including very recent history) may have had an influence on the creation of Rey’s background and why she's on Jakku. The practice both was and was not condoned in China. It happened because children were valued less than adults and female children in particular. Buddhist teaching frowned on it, believing the practice would bring bad Karma. On the other hand parents assuaged their guilt with the belief that the child would be reincarnated anyway (doesn’t excuse it in my book).

Infanticide (and mostly gendercide) was used as a kind of family planning method/population control. The Aftermath book series hints that child abandonment did happen in the outer rim/unknown regions. So I was wondering if Rey really is a child abandoned by her family as opposed to other options such as her parents being dead, or she was stolen by non-family before abandonment or something.

I’m going to go off on a tangent here but I’ll get back to Rey eventually. The Star Wars galaxy is one that seems to be rife with myth, legend, superstition etc. in relation to force use. There are the old myths and legends about the Jedi still floating around the galaxy. In the absence of the actual Jedi Order quite a lot of myths and legends etc. have no doubt arisen. Even with Luke’s attempts to rebirth the Jedi, there is no doubt still a lot of “fake news”, “alternative facts” and “convefes” out there about force use. Even Luke is viewed as a myth.

Add to that the spectre of Darth Vader and you get a really dodgy soup. Family connections to him are apparently enough to get you the march of shame from the senate as your political career goes up in flames despite everything you’ve done for the Rebellion and the success of the New Republic. The shadow of Darth Vader doesn’t just loom large for unfortunate family members though. His shadow still darkens the galaxy. Darth Vader is both revered and reviled. There is so much mythology surrounding him now it’s hard to know the truth (a fact Snoke has happily taken advantage of).

So imagine you’re in the camp that reviles Darth Vader or at least views him and anything about him with deep superstition. They don’t tell ghost stories in a galaxy far far away, they tell Darth Vader stories. So if your parents/family find out you’re force sensitive, or suspect that you are, and they’re scared stiff you’re going to grow up like Darth Vader and child abandonment is a practice in your culture...I reckon you can see where this is going.

The Aftermath series points to Jakku as being important to the Emperor and possibly the dark side. Is it possible Rey was abandoned there on purpose? A force sensitive child abandoned on Jakku by people with deeply held superstitions and beliefs about Darth Vader and force sensitivity as a whole. In ancient Greek culture babies that were deformed, or even had birthmarks, were abandoned on a mountainside to die. If force sensitivity was seen in a similar way then it makes me wonder if Rey was intentionally abandoned because of her force sensitivity.

Why Jakku? Was it a planet where young force sensitive children were abandoned in the hope that they would die and never become like Darth Vader? Another possibility is the idea of abandoning a force sensitive child on Jakku, a place synonymous with the dark side, in a sacrificial sense. Maybe even the idea that if they’re abandoned there and survive…sort of like a proving ground for the force sensitive (although it sounds a bit over-the-top).  

Rey believes her family will come back for her. Was this just something she was told to stop her leaving the planet? Maybe they were going to come back…if she survived? Or maybe her parents believe she will be taken in by the force? Whatever they needed to believe to assuage their guilt in leaving her. She’s force sensitive so she has that to help her survive, right. In Rey’s case that turned out to be true. Still, it’s not a recommended way to raise a child.

Of course, along comes Unkar Plutt and his particular brand of child exploitation. Did her parents know about him or not? I don’t know.

If you ask me there are a lot of signs and snippets that fit with the theory that Rey was abandoned, possibly intentionally due to her force sensitivity, and that her parents may have chosen to abandon her on Jakku for a reason.

Anyway, back to child infanticide in China. According to Wikipedia “The Confucian attitude towards female infanticide was conflicted. By placing value on age over youth, Confucian filial piety lessened the value of children, whilst the Confucian belief of Ren led Confucian intellectuals to support the idea that female infanticide was wrong and that the practice would upset the balance between yin and yang.(1)”

Now in all of that did I read the word REN. My mind immediately went to the Knights of Ren. So what is Ren? According to Wikipedia “Ren is the Confucian virtue denoting the good feeling a virtuous human experiences when being altruistic. Ren is exemplified by a normal adult's protective feelings for children (2).”

“Ren relies heavily on the relationships between two people, but at the same time encompasses much more than that. It represents an inner development towards an altruistic goal, while simultaneously realizing that one is never alone, and that everyone has these relationships to fall back on, being a member of a family, the state, and the world.(3)”

So what if the Knights of Ren believe themselves to be an altruistic organisation with altruistic goals in mind. They consider themselves a “family” with the First Order as their “state” and the galaxy as their “world”. As Kylo Ren, Ben Solo has rejected his birth family and accepted the Knights of Ren as his family. That’s one reason why he knew killing Han Solo would be his test of loyalty, not just to Snoke but also to the Knights of Ren. In fact his birth family represent everything that the Knights of Ren and the First Order are against.

I’ve often wondered about Snoke’s statement “If Skywalker returns, the New Jedi will rise.” In which case they would be in direct opposition to the Knights of Ren as an organisation and a philosophy. Kylo Ren understands this. Remember Adam Driver’s comments about both sides thinking they’re right. The Knights of Ren believe themselves to be an altruistic organisation bringing order and peace to the galaxy. The First Order has the same philosophy – they’re bringing Peace and Order to the galaxy. Whether they really are is up for debate. The inaction of the New Republic Senate certainly fed that view though. There also seems to be a lot of organised crime going unchecked in our galaxy far far away as well.

So what does all of that have to do with Rey? Well let’s think about Finn for a moment. “I was taken from a family I’ll never know…” It seems to me that the First Order is snapping up children for their Stormtrooper program. Accusations of child abuse aside, why are they doing this? They need troops of course. Why is no-one jumping up and down and saying this is bad, stop it. Probably because the First Order thinks they’re doing a good thing.

We have a part of the galaxy where child abandonment is a reality. In the Outer Rim (and possibly the unknown regions, wild space etc.) there is much poverty. There is much crime. I’m not sure about slavery but can you say it’s not happening. The First Order probably believes that they’re doing a good thing by turning these kids into stormtroopers instead of them becoming criminals or being left to die or have miserable lives of some kind. Or at least that’s how it started (or what they tell Kylo Ren – puts a different spin on why he called Finn a traitor). Things probably got out of hand, which is why Finn said he was actually taken, not just picked up after he was abandoned or something like that. And I think we all got the bit we’re Hux’ Stormtrooper program is particularly brutal and dehumanising.

Another possible reason to abandon a force sensitive girl on Jakku was to keep her away from the Storm trooper program and the First Order. But then that would be giving Rey’s parents a bit of credit. If they really wanted to protect her then they would have stayed or dropped her off with the Church of the Force guys at least.

Oops – maybe the Church of the Force on Jakku also has something to do with why force sensitive children were abandoned on Jakku. Maybe her parents were hoping the Church would take her in but for some reason they didn’t (I’m looking at Unkar Plutt here).

Anyway, the Knights of Ren, believing themselves to be an altruistic organisation also believed that they needed to help abandoned children or at least stamp out any practice of child abandonment. Perhaps Kylo Ren knows what’s going on with Rey because of this (“It is you” TFA novelisation). Perhaps there was a force sensitive child that they had tried to acquire to become one of the Knights of Ren but she ended up abandoned on Jakku instead. If child abandonment is a thing in the outer rim etc. and it was something both Luke and Ben Solo were aware of, then maybe they had different ideas about how to deal with it, given that it is as much a bad cultural practice as well as a criminal issue.

Ben seems to know more about Rey than she knows about herself (according to the novel). He got this from her head as well as her emerging abilities. He knows what kind of child she is. A force sensitive child abandoned by her parents on Jakku – who damn well SURVIVED. But there is something more isn’t there. Maybe they know about one particular child and the story of her abandonment and had once tried to do something about it. Obviously without success. Maybe this was the thin edge of the wedge for Luke and Kylo.

When Rey gets to Ahch-To and Luke says “Who are you?” I wonder if he’s saying that not because he really has no idea who she is but, just like Orson Krennic to Jyn when they finally come face to face in Rogue One, he knows there’s something to her story that links her to him but needs some more information to connect the dots (no she’s not a Skywalker). Is this the force sensitive girl from the past who was abandoned that they couldn’t find or were too late to rescue (or something like that).

Rian has said in TLJ he is going to really “test” the characters. They’re going to face things that really get at the core of who they are. If Rey were to find out that her parents intentionally abandoned her on Jakku because of her force sensitivity and lied to her about coming back…that would test anyone.

Refs
(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren_(Confucianism)
(2) Mungello, D. E. (2012). The Great Encounter of China and the West, 1500–1800. Rowman & Littlefield. ISBN 9781442219755.cited by Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China
(3) (Chi-Yun 34) quoted in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren_(Confucianism)

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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by Darth Rowan on Fri 9 Jun - 13:23



Very nice. I think you're onto something about the Knights of Ren having some supposed altruistic overarching purpose. Imo even the fact that they choose to be "knights" implies something about a sense of chivalry and noble purpose, or at least that they perceive themselves that way. It would be interesting if Rey and Kylo were connected through the KoR somehow. I feel like a lot of people got hung up on J.J saying Kylo and Rey had never met prior to Takodana. Still doesn't mean there wasn't prior knowledge from years back, at least on Kylo's end.

Re: Force sensitive child abandonment, it made me sad to read about kids being left on mountains by their parents (for any reason, let alone a beauty mark) and my first thought is "It's too dark for Star Wars". My counter argument to myself is that if The Skywalker Special is not too dark, and Anakin's entire life, for that matter, why would this be?

Anyway, great post!

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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by rey09 on Fri 9 Jun - 14:03

The question I have about her parents it- how do you connect her parents with her very powerful nature? Are they actually connected? She is clearly something very different, and that's a big reason why many concluded the only explanation is being a skywalker. Colin has said "she is a character that is important in this universe, not just in the context of The Force Awakens, but in the entire galaxy" is a big. Sure I have no doubt there are other force sensitives across the galaxy, but why is she so much more *seemingly* special. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole being force sensitive thing (aside from ben's genetic endowment), everyone else is "chosen" by the force? Obiwan, Yoda, mace etc they were all born with this inherent power within them, presumably because the force willed it? And if that is true, wouldn't we have to think similarly for Rey?
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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by darthbutterfingers on Sat 10 Jun - 9:19

@Darth Rowan wrote:

Re: Force sensitive child abandonment, it made me sad to read about kids being left on mountains by their parents (for any reason, let alone a beauty mark) and my first thought is "It's too dark for Star Wars". My counter argument to myself is that if The Skywalker Special is not too dark, and Anakin's entire life, for that matter, why would this be?

Anyway, great post!
@Darth Rowan

Yes, child abandonment is a dark subject but then I watched Rogue One again last night and it's pretty dark for Star Wars too (everyone dies). There is also a bit of child abandonment in that movie too (Jyn). Star Wars has always contained dark elements, i.e. your point about Anakin's entire life. It depends on how it's done I guess. Thanks for the Gif.

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Re: Rey's Lineage Discussion II

Post by BenOrgana on Wed 5 Jul - 16:45

@rey09 wrote:The question I have about her parents it- how do you connect her parents with her very powerful nature? Are they actually connected? She is clearly something very different, and that's a big reason why many concluded the only explanation is being a skywalker. Colin has said "she is a character that is important in this universe, not just in the context of The Force Awakens, but in the entire galaxy" is a big. Sure I have no doubt there are other force sensitives across the galaxy, but why is she so much more *seemingly* special. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole being force sensitive thing (aside from ben's genetic endowment), everyone else is "chosen" by the force? Obiwan, Yoda, mace etc they were all born with this inherent power within them, presumably because the force willed it? And if that is true, wouldn't we have to think similarly for Rey?
@rey09

I don't think there are any hard-and-fast rules, but being Force-sensitive - in the canon established so far - can be genetic, but it can also arise out of nowhere. There are a few characters in and around Rebels who are Force-sensitive despite none of their other family members showing any signs of it. People get really obsessed with "explaining" Force power, but the Force moves in its own way. Not everything has that kind of explanation.

Some people just have a destiny in the Force, if they choose to take the path. For whatever reason, based on her dreams and the lightsaber calling to her, Rey's destiny was to find Luke Skywalker.

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