Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by IoJovi on Sat 11 Feb - 20:52

@Piper Maru wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:
@vaderito wrote:She gives him elevator eyes.
@vaderito

Yeap. She checks him out in the unmasking scene. We see his face through her point of view and her female gaze. I don't know why people ignore this.
@Piper Maru

I'm one of the people still unconvinced that Rey "checks out" Kylo in the unmasking scene in a particular girl-interested-in-a-boy fashion. Rather than a general, ohh you look nothing like the monster I imagined you to be.
@Saracene

It's not in a "oh you're cute" fashion. It's a display of female gaze. Rey (the female) has the POV of the "undressing" of a male character (Kylo Ren) and this POV is shared by the audience.
@Piper Maru

Agreed with this. It's not an omg you're hot in the traditional sense you'd see in romcom scenario. However, we see his unmasking through Rey's eyes, and our reaction is supposed to mimic hers. She also gives him the elevator eyes (twice), and I do believe she was shocked by how young and good looking he is. It may not be love at first sight, but I do believe there is some deep down hidden sexual attraction on her part. No wonder she slashed his face...

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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by Darth Dementor on Sun 12 Feb - 12:12

@Piper Maru wrote:
@vaderito wrote:She gives him elevator eyes.
@vaderito

Yeap. She checks him out in the unmasking scene. We see his face through her point of view and her female gaze. I don't know why people ignore this.
@Piper Maru

The thing that sold it for me was how she looked away, pretending not to stare at him, then took a quick glance back again, before avoiding eye contact. The entire time it seemed like she was holding her breath, like she forgot how to breathe.

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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by vaderito on Sun 12 Feb - 12:20

@Darth Dementor

All of this! Agreed 100%.
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by Xylo Ren on Sun 12 Feb - 12:25

@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:
@vaderito wrote:She gives him elevator eyes.
@vaderito

Yeap. She checks him out in the unmasking scene. We see his face through her point of view and her female gaze. I don't know why people ignore this.
@Piper Maru

The thing that sold it for me was how she looked away, pretending not to stare at him, then took a quick glance back again, before avoiding eye contact.  The entire time it seemed like she was holding her breath, like she forgot how to breathe.
@Darth Dementor

Classic girl code: look long enough to acknowledge the hotness, then look away so he doesn't catch you staring! WinksD
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 12 Feb - 12:47

@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:
@vaderito wrote:She gives him elevator eyes.
@vaderito

Yeap. She checks him out in the unmasking scene. We see his face through her point of view and her female gaze. I don't know why people ignore this.
@Piper Maru

The thing that sold it for me was how she looked away, pretending not to stare at him, then took a quick glance back again, before avoiding eye contact. The entire time it seemed like she was holding her breath, like she forgot how to breathe.
@Darth Dementor

Yup! That's exactly what a person does when they're checking someone out and don't want to get caught.

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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by snufkin on Sun 12 Feb - 13:11

@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:
@vaderito wrote:She gives him elevator eyes.
@vaderito

Yeap. She checks him out in the unmasking scene. We see his face through her point of view and her female gaze. I don't know why people ignore this.
@Piper Maru

The thing that sold it for me was how she looked away, pretending not to stare at him, then took a quick glance back again, before avoiding eye contact. The entire time it seemed like she was holding her breath, like she forgot how to breathe.
@Darth Dementor

This is exactly why the "well I didn't see anything" comments about how she look at him don't exactly fly. It's very much trying to look at him without getting caught doing it. It's far more subtle versus the 3 exact times he gives her elevator eyes.

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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 12 Feb - 13:18

The thing that caught my eye and made me picking Reylo at my first viewing was Kylo demasking in front of Rey.

At very moment I saw it as a callback to a "Are you little too short for a Stormtrooper?" scene aka Luke (who already had a holochron crush) demasking in front of Leia in ANH.

The whole dialogue in the interrogation scene just confirmed for me the fact that young Solo is falling for a girl.

(I have to mention that I'am quite often blind to those things)
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 12 Feb - 13:19

@snufkin wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:
@vaderito wrote:She gives him elevator eyes.
@vaderito

Yeap. She checks him out in the unmasking scene. We see his face through her point of view and her female gaze. I don't know why people ignore this.
@Piper Maru

The thing that sold it for me was how she looked away, pretending not to stare at him, then took a quick glance back again, before avoiding eye contact. The entire time it seemed like she was holding her breath, like she forgot how to breathe.
@Darth Dementor

This is exactly why the "well I didn't see anything" comments about how she look at him don't exactly fly. It's very much trying to look at him without getting caught doing it. It's far more subtle versus the 3 exact times he gives her elevator eyes.

@snufkin

Someone here (it may have even been you) compared Rey in the interrogation chair to getting pulled over by a cute cop. You know that you've got a decent chance of being in trouble, but you can't help but look when he's not looking. I've always liked that analogy. (And the two times in my life that I've been pulled over, the cop was cute both times.)

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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by snufkin on Sun 12 Feb - 13:24

@ISeeAnIsland - I believe that was @MeadowofAshes' observation! And he's supposed to be all business, but having a hard time staying on task because he's immediately interested in her. She definitely gets the Gold Star treatment versus Poe's experience.
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by Kyla Ren on Sun 12 Feb - 18:13

@Saracene wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:
@vaderito wrote:She gives him elevator eyes.
@vaderito

Yeap. She checks him out in the unmasking scene. We see his face through her point of view and her female gaze. I don't know why people ignore this.
@Piper Maru

I'm one of the people still unconvinced that Rey "checks out" Kylo in the unmasking scene in a particular girl-interested-in-a-boy fashion. Rather than a general, ohh you look nothing like the monster I imagined you to be.
@Saracene

I'm not completely convinced that she checks him out, either.  I think she was surprised and maybe even confused that he wasn't a "monster".  And somewhere in the back of her mind she might have even registered that he was good looking.  But even that I'm not sure about, because even though he is very good looking, in her situation, being restrained like that, having no idea what he was going to do to her, would she really be checking him out and thinking, "Oh, he's hot"?  If anything she was probably just really scared.
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by DarthRen on Wed 15 Feb - 19:16

Glad people noticed Rey's elevator eyes and not Kylo's which is was more noticeable and his attraction towards Rey.

As people here said it was not only to show us Kylo's unmasking basically as Rey's POV but also from our to see he's not a monster. It's symbolic that he unmasked himself in front of her. A lot of people were asking why he did not do it for Han his father, I see perhaps this will serve for movies forward and JJ said their interrogation scene will have impact further forward on them and plot. She checked him out like girl is doing with a boy that she's not supposed to be attracted to. She looked at him as he put his mask, then quickly turned away from so he wouldn't noticed it, then quick turn at him. Rey is attracted to him and he is to her, probably more so and her attraction is more subtle than his. Also not to mention Force bond possilibity.
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by Piper Maru on Wed 15 Feb - 19:26

The interrogation scene is one of the most important scenes of the movie. Kylo and Snoke talk about the "awakening", but we first see it in action in this scene, when Rey reverses his mind probe. It makes sense that Kylo removes his mask there, it's a turning point for the story. After he meets Rey, he spends most of his screentime without his mask.
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 18 Feb - 0:31

I've been deliberating what to contribute to this thread for a while now and I think I've finally come up with something. Recently I've spent a little time re-watching Kodomo no Omocha (Child's Toy), and IMO it's a perfect example of just why the very unique character dynamic that is likely to evolve between Rey and Kylo is considered "for the ages"; no matter the plot, no matter the subject matter, no matter the genre, target audience or setting, this particular character dynamic is absolutely one that is bound to go down in history every single time it's written extremely effectively. Everybody can relate to the desire to complete and want to be completed by another person, and when writers take that a step further you end up with something truly special.

Akito and Sana from Kodomo no Omocha


I picked this series as my example because it really couldn't be further from SW, and that's exactly what I wanted (I thought about what to use for a while). It's essentially a children's romantic comedy, a really simple anime/manga about a grade school rivalry between an upbeat girl and her sixth grade class' seemingly emotionless bully. Not what you might call an "epic" story on the outside, but I found it to be strangely engaging as a romance between kids. The writer uses a lot of bizarre symbolism to emphasize the wackiness that goes in inside a young girl's mind, so everything is very exaggerated (i.e., Akito isn't just the class bully, he's a little demon to the protagonist). As such, their friendship/relationship starts in a bad place (with Sana insulting Akito and Akito physically and psychologically targeting her). Of course, after seeing Akito's home life and getting to know him a little Sana becomes compassionate toward him, and he gradually (and secretly) falls head-over-heels for her, but has a lot of trouble separating himself from the "bully" persona he adopted for so long.

The series mainly revolves around Akito and Sana helping the other kids and adults in their lives, with the protagonist and deuteragonist making the perfect duo because each possesses what the other lacks. I think it's this idea that truly attracts people, because this kind of dynamic seems to transcend all ages and genres.

This quote from an article really describes what I loved so much about the dynamic:

When many of us think of great romantic stories, elementary school flings typically don't come to mind. However, the relationship between Sana Kurata and Akito Hayama—i.e., the heart of Kodomo no Omocha—truly is an anime romance for the ages. Famous television actress and kinetic ball of energy Sana initially seems like a terrible match for sullen and morose class troublemaker Hayama. After Hayama succeeds in plunging their class into chaos, Sana does the unthinkable by taking a very public stand against the school's resident problem child.

Despite Hayama's best efforts at retaliation, Sana vehemently refuses to indulge the young upstart's behavior. (At one point, she even pulls his pants down and snaps a blackmail photo—oh, the horrible crimes committed by 11-year-olds in this show.) Although he's only a child, Hayama expresses a few characteristics of a Byronic hero—the kind of male lead that isn't conducive to a real life happily-ever-after but has always appealed to me in fiction. He's sullen and stoic, and his rock-hard exterior hides a rather dark past. Ultimately, the relentlessly optimistic Sana is the only one who's able to pull him out of his personal darkness, and before long, he comes to genuinely care for her. (It's quite a while before she's able to reciprocate these feelings.) The Byronic hero and the no-nonsense heroine is one of my favorite fictional pairings, so it makes sense that I always looked fondly on Akito and Sana's union.

...

[Sana's] optimism is so contagious that even the perpetually downtrodden Akito can't help but be enveloped by it. When the time comes for Sana to confront her own demons, her once-time enemy proves to be the perfect rock.

If you can't see the similarities to every single "Reylo" meta, well, I'm not sure you've read any. In short it doesn't matter if it's in a children's comic series or a space fairytale. A relationship that revolves around two characters completing each other is never going to go out of style. Never, ever. And that's why Rey and Kylo have the potential to be a romance for the ages.
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by rey09 on Sat 18 Feb - 8:14

Omg @FrolickingFizzgig I love the part where it addresses the pairing between the byronic hero and the no-nonsense heroine. Perfect description! When I think back on my previous ships from different shows/movies, iI now realize it was always this kind XD
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by snufkin on Sat 18 Feb - 14:14

Kinda reminds me of TimeOut's summary of Rey in their list ranking the characters. Caveat for this article is that miss that she'll have an equally hilarious relationship in how she handles Kylo, including his big chat up line on her during their fight:

Rey

Who is she?
The mysterious heroine of ‘The Force Awakens’, a young orphan with a hidden past who dreams of escape from her drab, backwater existence – but when she gets the chance, isn’t sure if adventure was such a great idea after all. The mysterious heroine of ‘The Force Awakens’, a young orphan with a hidden past who dreams of escape from her drab, backwater existence – but when she gets the chance, isn’t sure if adventure was such a great idea after all.

Why do we love her?
Because she’s like something out of an old-fashioned British kids adventure novel: plucky, proud and a bit posh, with nerves of steel and a whip-smart mouth. Watching actress Daisy Ridley bound up those stone steps on the planet Ahch-To in the final moments of ‘The Force Awakens’, we couldn’t help but be reminded of the BBC fantasy stories we loved as kids: ‘The Owl Service’ or ‘The Secret Garden’, perhaps, with their feisty stage-school heroines. The way she ‘handles’ John Boyega’s Finn is hilarious, too – we can’t wait to see where that relationship goes.

Key line: ‘You will remove these restraints and leave this cell with the door open.’

Kylo Ren

Who is he?
The villain of ‘The Force Awakens’ – and (spoiler alert) the wayward son of Han Solo and Princess Leia, who turned, or was led, to the Dark Side following his Jedi training at the hands of Luke Skywalker, and is now in an almighty teenage piss about everything in the universe.

Why do we love him?
Because he’s just a big stroppy kid, albeit one with 1,000 armoured legions and a planet-shattering death laser at his disposal – also, JJ Abrams hasn’t come out and said it, but we reckon he’s having a sly pop at ‘Star Wars’ fanboys in Kylo’s obsession with Darth Vader’s scorched helmet (oo-er). The scenes between Adam Driver’s Kylo and Daisy Ridley’s Rey are the most dramatic in ‘The Force Awakens’, first his abortive attempt to torture her with the force, followed by his realisation of her untapped power and their thrilling climactic lightsaber smackdown. This is one character we’re dying to see more of.

Key line: ‘Wait! I can show you the power of the Dark Side!’

and just for fun:

Finn

Who is he?
The rootless, nameless First Order stormtrooper and part-time plumbing technician – born FN-2187 – who has a crisis of conscience on manoeuvres on Jakku, rescues Resistance maverick Poe Dameron and sets out to find his way in this big ol’ universe.

Why do we love him?
Because he’s our wide-eyed guide to the eye-frazzling wonders of ‘The Force Awakens’, desperately trying to come across as cool and collected while permanently panicking on the inside. And also because he’s played by Peckham’s own John Boyega, a remarkable young actor who has unexpectedly muscled his way to the top through a combination of nerdy charm and quiet, steely toughness – perfect for the character of a child soldier who smashes his chains and goes rogue. We’re expecting big things from Finn in the next two movies: if he isn’t a Resistance general with his own fleet of starships by the end of episode IX, we’ll be mightily disappointed.

Key quote: ‘The name's Finn. And I'm in charge.’

Obi-Wan Kenobi

Who is he?
From thrusting young Jedi hero to desert-wandering retainer to shimmering blue apparition, Obi-Wan is either the selfless, beating heart of the entire ‘Star Wars’ saga, or a total doormat. Still, like the great man said, many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Why do we love him?
Because he’s absolutely ruthless with a lightsaber (as our hapless number 30 knows only too well). Because his shades-of-beige wardrobe is both functional and stylish. Because he wears a trimmed beard with boundless elan. And because he’s played by two very fine actors, including perhaps the greatest thespian ever to emerge from this sceptered isle, Sir Alec Guinness.

Still, it does give us slight concern that he’s basically a one-man walking support network for the accident-prone Skywalker family. And where does it get him, really? He’s forced almost to kill his best friend (who is, let’s face it, kind of a d**** anyway). He’s left to shuffle around a desert for two decades as a glorified long-distance babysitter. Then, as soon as his life starts getting interesting again, he’s unceremoniously knocked off by said best friend and forced to spend the remainder of eternity as a ghost in the company of the guy who killed him! Now that’s loyalty.

Key line: ‘If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.’

Princess Leia Organa

Who is she?
The proud, upraised face of the Rebel Alliance: a beautiful, sarcastic, blaster-packing, man-juggling, no-bullshit-taking, Danish-pastry-haircut wearing icon of womanhood – for two movies, at least. That whole gold bikini incident may have dented her feminist credentials ever so slightly, but at least she got to throttle Jabba the Hutt for it. And she came back swinging in ‘The Force Awakens’, as a full-blown General with her own Resistance army.

Why do we love her?
When we were little, Princess Leia was just an annoyance: the last action figure we’d want to unwrap on Christmas morning. Then, as adolescents, she became a bit more (ahem) interesting, but hardly a character to be taken seriously, gold bikini or no gold bikini. But now, as grown-ups, we can look back and realise that Leia, token female though she may be, is actually the most shaded, complex character in the entire ‘Star Wars’ saga. As a very public figure working for an outlawed cause who doesn’t just lose her family but her entire home planet, she’s got a lot more at stake than either of her flyboy toyboys. As a woman in a man’s universe she stands her ground at every turn – see how she faces down both Tarkin and Vader without breaking a sweat – becoming neither a remote aristocratic figurehead like Mon Mothma or a put-upon drudge like Aunt Beru. As the only eligible female in several light years she clearly gets a kick out of playing off Han and Luke against each other, and refuses to get sucked into any of that mushy stuff (the ‘just… hold me’ episode notwithstanding). She has the quickest mind, the sharpest tongue and, lest we forget, the most money – but as the decades pass, she remains willing to risk everything for the cause she believes in. They picked the wrong Skywalker!

Key line: ‘I am not a committee!’



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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by Hasi on Thu 23 Feb - 19:12

Double post-sorry!


Last edited by Hasi on Thu 23 Feb - 19:13; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by Hasi on Thu 23 Feb - 19:13

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:
@vaderito wrote:She gives him elevator eyes.
@vaderito

Yeap. She checks him out in the unmasking scene. We see his face through her point of view and her female gaze. I don't know why people ignore this.
@Piper Maru

The thing that sold it for me was how she looked away, pretending not to stare at him, then took a quick glance back again, before avoiding eye contact.  The entire time it seemed like she was holding her breath, like she forgot how to breathe.
@Darth Dementor

Yup! That's exactly what a person does when they're checking someone out and don't want to get caught.
@ISeeAnIsland

I think that was actually one of the first things that made me notice Reylo during my first viewing...just how different they were around each other. Rey is always shown being defiant and talking back and has not problem doing that and being sassy while she has what she believes is a creature in a mask in front of her, but then Kylo umasks and she goes completely speechless and stares at him, and when he comes closer she immediately looks away while still stealing glances at him a few times. Also, she has not problem being like "I'm a scavenger from Jakku yo" around Finn and Han, but then Kylo mentions what she does for a living and she suddenly feels self-conscious. I saw another kind of awakening going on in there beside the Force, and it's one of the reasons why a platonic or one-sided relationship between them never made much sense to me. To me tfa already established that there's a very raw and primal type of connection between them (again, beside the Force) and I doubt they brought it up just for it to fade without being explored in the future. Imo JJ's "prince" comment confirms this...he confirmed that Adam was supposed to look attarctive in that scene, that he was dressed to impress (and obviously the person he had to impress was Rey). It kind of implies that Rey finds him attractive/very pleasing to the eyes, because otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with Adam's appearance, nor focused on Rey's reaction if the audience was just supposed to think "Oh he's human and young and not a monstah". It's also the only scene where Rey wears lipstick, and it's the same shade of the one Kylo is wearing. I definetely perked up during the bridal carry, but during the interrogation scene I was like "??What is happening here?? Why are they acting like that??? Is this what I think it is???"...after pausing the movie and playing that scene again three other times (lol), I basically saw it as your typical "A & B see each other for the first time and there's a sort of recognition that says that at some point they will have romantic feelings for each other/fall in love" moment. As many said before Kylo's behaviour is pretty self-explanatory..he keeps everyone at arm's length whether prisoners, enemies or co-workers, but something about the pretty scavenger girl makes him want to be close to her and draws out his covetous nature. I've never thought that Rey might be a Skywalker (and Maz already said that it's impossible anyway) and by the time Rey and Finn hugged on Starkiller it was pretty clear to me that their relationship was platonic, so probably that also helped in making the scenes between Rey and Kylo even more obvious. What sealed the deal was Kylo propping himself up after being wounded just so they could stare at each other across the void (and yes, I paused the movie and replayed the forest fight too lol). As many pointed out before, a lot of scenes in tfa are pretty loud and chaotic, but with Rey and Kylo is alwalys about the two of them and they always end up staring at each other in silence, after going through intense and emotional moments that bind them forever. That's what dreams are made of flower
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by fuhry on Wed 29 Mar - 12:21

I definitely noticed the romantic tension right away in the film. That's why I thought immediately that Rey was not related to him, and was in fact a Kenobi or a Palpatine. But whether it could actually turn into a relationship? I mean, I think if it does, it would be a doomed one, that they would have to sacrifice for the good of the galaxy.

But what would it take to get there? I mean, Rey might be attracted to Kylo, but she also bonded with Han and Chewie, and she saw Kylo strike Han down in cold blood.

So I think, what it would take is for there to be some sort of revelation about Han - If we found out that Han Solo actually did something very selfish, very bad, that pretty much ruined his relationship with his mother and made his son hate him - for good reason - well, then Kylo's murder of Han becomes at least something that's possible to overcome. I think that's the key to any redemption of Kylo Ren - learning about a fall to his hurtful, scoundrel ways. Who knows, maybe Han even had something to do with abandoning Rey on Jakku. Maybe he was paid to do it - maybe he got into serious trouble double crossing people (we actually see this in TFA) and kidnapping and abandoning Rey (or killing her parents) was the only way for him to get out of it.

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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by Saracene on Wed 29 Mar - 16:38

I seriously doubt they'd throw Han under the bus to make Kylo look better. If anything that would just make the fans angry.
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 29 Mar - 16:41

@Saracene wrote:I seriously doubt they'd throw Han under the bus to make Kylo look better. If anything that would just make the fans angry.
@Saracene

I agree. Assuming that we get a Kylo redemption and romantic, mutual Reylo, we'll get some sort of twist that gives Ben's fall a sympathetic (or at least understandable) backstory. If the audience can understand why he did what he did (even if they don't completely agree with it), it'll make it easier to sell him as a potential redeemed hero.

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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by Blood Moon on Wed 29 Mar - 17:05

@fuhry wrote:I definitely noticed the romantic tension right away in the film.  That's why I thought immediately that Rey was not related to him, and was in fact a Kenobi or a Palpatine.  But whether it could actually turn into a relationship?  I mean, I think if it does, it would be a doomed one, that they would have to sacrifice for the good of the galaxy.

But what would it take to get there?  I mean, Rey might be attracted to Kylo, but she also bonded with Han and Chewie, and she saw Kylo strike Han down in cold blood.

So I think, what it would take is for there to be some sort of revelation about Han - If we found out that Han Solo actually did something very selfish, very bad, that pretty much ruined his relationship with his mother and made his son hate him - for good reason - well, then Kylo's murder of Han becomes at least something that's possible to overcome.  I think that's the key to any redemption of Kylo Ren - learning about a fall to his hurtful, scoundrel ways.  Who knows, maybe Han even had something to do with abandoning Rey on Jakku.  Maybe he was paid to do it - maybe he got into serious trouble double crossing people (we actually see this in TFA) and kidnapping and abandoning Rey (or killing her parents) was the only way for him to get out of it.  
@fuhry

That would be really heartbreaking for me, if he was "responsible" for Rey's backstory.
Han paid the ultimate prize for trying to bring his son home, this was the most heroic thing he has ever done. If he was involved in Rey's backstory how are the writers going to explain that. For me it would be storytelling for the sake of shock. (So Kylo stabs him in his heart/guts and the filmmakers stab him in the back.)  Crying or Very sad
And everybody knows Han isn't Mr. Perfect and did some crazy things in his life and made misstakes.
There are better ways of telling Rey's backstory when we have this big bad evil thing called Snoke.
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by ReyofLightSide on Wed 29 Mar - 17:51

Yes I can't imagine they would make Han look that bad.
Kylo says Ben was "weak and foolish" like his father- so in Kylo's eyes, Han either did something or DIDN'T do something
to make him feel that way. Maybe there was something Han didn't stop from happening.

I wondered if Han ignited the light saber himself. His hand is really close to the button when they both have their hands on it but it looks like Kylo's was closer. that would be quite a huge twist if Kylo hadn't been the one to do it.
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 29 Mar - 17:57

@ReyofLightSide wrote:Yes I can't imagine they would make Han look that bad.
Kylo says Ben was "weak and foolish" like his father- so in Kylo's eyes, Han either did something or DIDN'T do something
to make him feel that way. Maybe there was something Han didn't stop from happening.

I wondered if Han ignited the light saber himself. His hand is really close to the button when they both have their hands on it but it looks like Kylo's was closer. that would be quite a huge twist if Kylo hadn't been the one to do it.
@ReyofLightSide

If I had to guess, I'd say that Ben didn't want to get sent to Luke, and Han wasn't able to prevent it from happening.

I'm going from the hunch that Leia's line, "That's why I wanted him to train with Luke. I just never should have sent him away. That's when I lost him. That's when I lost you both."

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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 29 Mar - 18:12

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@ReyofLightSide wrote:Yes I can't imagine they would make Han look that bad.
Kylo says Ben was "weak and foolish" like his father- so in Kylo's eyes, Han either did something or DIDN'T do something
to make him feel that way. Maybe there was something Han didn't stop from happening.

I wondered if Han ignited the light saber himself. His hand is really close to the button when they both have their hands on it but it looks like Kylo's was closer. that would be quite a huge twist if Kylo hadn't been the one to do it.
@ReyofLightSide

If I had to guess, I'd say that Ben didn't want to get sent to Luke, and Han wasn't able to prevent it from happening.

I'm going from the hunch that Leia's line, "That's why I wanted him to train with Luke. I just never should have sent him away. That's when I lost him. That's when I lost you both."
@ISeeAnIsland

I think it will be that plus another specific incident with Han. There are hints in the novelizations that Han is guilty about something, and that "I've been waiting for you for a long time" could fit in with that. IOW, I think Han will have something to be guilty for, but it won't be something to do with Rey (he didn't recognize her), nor will it be something that "ruins" him. It will be something tragic like him abandoning Ben when he needed him the most due to fear or just not paying attention. Like if Snoke has played the predator as long as we think he has, then Han missed something. That would caused significant guilt. Also, we have talked about a specific abandonment incident before ... I always wonder if han had some kind of contact around the time Ben turned and he ignored him or rejected and refused to help him if it was post-Jedi incident and Ben was half out of his mind. I am trying to remember if there was a point in the script where Han wanted to tell Leia something at the last meeting, but decided to wait to his return, or was that just in the novelization?
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Re: Rey and Kylo -- for the ages: what would it take?

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Wed 29 Mar - 18:18

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@ReyofLightSide wrote:Yes I can't imagine they would make Han look that bad.
Kylo says Ben was "weak and foolish" like his father- so in Kylo's eyes, Han either did something or DIDN'T do something
to make him feel that way. Maybe there was something Han didn't stop from happening.

I wondered if Han ignited the light saber himself. His hand is really close to the button when they both have their hands on it but it looks like Kylo's was closer. that would be quite a huge twist if Kylo hadn't been the one to do it.
@ReyofLightSide

If I had to guess, I'd say that Ben didn't want to get sent to Luke, and Han wasn't able to prevent it from happening.

I'm going from the hunch that Leia's line, "That's why I wanted him to train with Luke. I just never should have sent him away. That's when I lost him. That's when I lost you both."
@ISeeAnIsland

I think it will be that plus another specific incident with Han. There are hints in the novelizations that Han is guilty about something, and that "I've been waiting for you for a long time" could fit in with that. IOW, I think Han will have something to be guilty for, but it won't be something to do with Rey (he didn't recognize her), nor will it be something that "ruins" him. It will be something tragic like him abandoning Ben when he needed him the most due to fear or just not paying attention. Like if Snoke has played the predator as long as we think he has, then Han missed something. That would caused significant guilt. Also, we have talked about a specific abandonment incident before ... I always wonder if han had some kind of contact around the time Ben turned and he ignored him or rejected and refused to help him if it was post-Jedi incident and Ben was half out of his mind. I am trying to remember if there was a point in the script where Han wanted to tell Leia something at the last meeting, but decided to wait to his return, or was that just in the novelization?
@SoloSideCousin

I know that the incident you're talking about was in the novelization, but I'm not aware if it was ever in the script. I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the script--we know that from the BTS extra that there was an extended version of that conversation between Han and Leia at one point.

And I'm totally with you that I expect there to have been a more concrete incident of "abandonment" beyond Han and Leia simply not seeing or being in denial about what was going on with Snoke and being too absorbed in their personal goals. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some last-ditch attempt by Ben to reach out to his parents or to Han or something after the Jedi temple incident. It would fit with what we know.

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