The Last Jedi: General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 20 May - 20:01

Spotted a fun Snoke theory on Reddit. Ties in with the kind of stuff some of us have loved to speculate about (royalty, the Elder Houses, knights, Mediaeval undertones, etc.).

https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/6c5gx4/theory_snoke_and_the_house_of_ren/?st=j2xjzgqh&sh=1b7965c0

I've speculated before that the Knights of Ren might have a link with royalty, but it never actually occurred to me that "Ren" might be, among other things, the name of a noble house.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sat 20 May - 21:11

@Darth Dingbat - interesting! It would line up with the ideas from Bloodline that some of the aristocracy had ties to the FO. Or that there's a larger story out there in the Outer Reaches beyond the Known Galaxy. Including if Snoke and Rey's parents came from there, if her parents had connections to there and disappeared from there, or setting up the end to the ST with Rey and Ben traveling off to there because of the further story of the Force and ancient orders.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 20 May - 21:27

I'm going to bed just now, but this just occurred to me - it's been speculated that Rey might be descended from some ancient family of Force users (or even the first Force users), or that she might come from the Unknown Regions... but has it been speculated that thousands of years ago, at the time of the Great Schism (if you will), there might have been Force users who were exiled to the Unknown Regions? I would assume such exiles might be Dark Side users because of the so-called "Source of the Dark Side" in the UR; these Force users might have gathered round this presence (or been corrupted by it) and developed their own culture and religion over millennia.

I honestly can't remember if the exile scenario has been talked about. By this time all different theories basically blur into one, as far as I'm concerned...

I think I had some kind of a theory brewing here but I'm falling asleep now so that theory will have to wait (if it survives the night Razz)
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sat 20 May - 21:56

@Darth Dingbat wrote:there might have been Force users who were exiled to the Unknown Regions? I would assume such exiles might be Dark Side users because of the so-called "Source of the Dark Side" in the UR; these Force users might have gathered round this presence (or been corrupted by it) and developed their own culture and religion over millennia.

Sleep well! And that would be genuinely interesting about expanding the scope, looking at the origins, and side stepping the whole Bible Study style debates that keep going on about how people can't be Grey or Dark. It'd also be hilarious to see her shown to be more of an aristocrat or at least actual descendant of High Level Force Users versus the nouveau riche Skywalkers.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sat 20 May - 22:23

Interesting theory. And it would fit with the Rey/Anastasia parallels. It also would be interesting to have had Kylo renounce his family name(s) ("Skywalker"/"Solo"/"Organa") in favor of "Ren". And it would open up the galaxy nicely for future movies/stories.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sat 20 May - 23:09

Oooh oooh! And the Raiders of the Lost Ark mentions, relic hunters references would work with this too. Even if terms of how the general details of Rey's backstory of ending up on Jakku sounds an awful lot like what Kasdan wrote for Marian, who was the daughter of a relic hunter and initially pursued by the bad guys because she had the key her father had found. I'd bet a rotisserie Space Chicken that's what Snoke's ultimately after, why he's captured/manipulated Ben, and what Rey's connection is to it all. Kasdan's mentioned in interviews the cut back story for Marion being one of his regrets for Raiders. And we know that he had wanted the Dark/robin Luke scenario for RotJ, which could be what they're doing with Ben.



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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by rey09 on Sun 21 May - 0:21

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I'm going to bed just now, but this just occurred to me - it's been speculated that Rey might be descended from some ancient family of Force users (or even the first Force users), or that she might come from the Unknown Regions... but has it been speculated that thousands of years ago, at the time of the Great Schism (if you will), there might have been Force users who were exiled to the Unknown Regions? I would assume such exiles might be Dark Side users because of the so-called "Source of the Dark Side" in the UR; these Force users might have gathered round this presence (or been corrupted by it) and developed their own culture and religion over millennia.

I honestly can't remember if the exile scenario has been talked about. By this time all different theories basically blur into one, as far as I'm concerned...

I think I had some kind of a theory brewing here but I'm falling asleep now so that theory will have to wait (if it survives the night Razz)
@Darth Dingbat Yes I would love that kind of story of Rey! It would make her standing even more epic, not even the Skywalkers would be a big deal after that lol. 

Also I just saw the new Beauty and the Beast. I didn't like the cartoon version, so I was surprised that I was crying a lot through this film lol (Days in the Sun is breaking my heart!! Sad Sad . What I liked about it is they gave backstory to the beast. Both of them lost their mothers when they were small. And of course, the first thing I think of is reylo XD Because they both share this loss of family. If Belle and the Beast can come together in that, I can't imagine how reylo couldn't happen since there is way more sad/tragic/emotional content in that one. And B&B's saf stories already had me crying. I loved the part where they went to her old Paris home and how he was there to see her at her most vulnerable, talking of her mother. I so desperately hope we get these kinds of moments of rey and kylo.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 21 May - 0:43

@snufkin wrote:Oooh oooh! And the Raiders of the Lost Ark mentions, relic hunters references would work with this too. Even if terms of how the general details of Rey's backstory of ending up on Jakku sounds an awful lot like what Kasdan wrote for Marian, who was the daughter of a relic hunter and initially pursued by the bad guys because she had the key her father had found. I'd bet a rotisserie Space Chicken that's what Snoke's ultimately after, why he's captured/manipulated Ben, and what Rey's connection is to it all. Kasdan's mentioned in interviews the cut back story for Marion being one of his regrets for Raiders. And we know that he had wanted the Dark/robin Luke scenario for RotJ, which could be what they're doing with Ben.

@snufkin

You know that I love this idea. And if Rey has had the "missing piece" all along, what do you want to bed that it's one of the components of or hidden in her staff? Hidden in plain sight all along...

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sun 21 May - 0:51

@ISeeAnIsland - @spacebaby45678 has speculated that she very well could be the Reyder of the Lost Ark and that something in her staff was left with her as a child on Jakku, which was something meant to be hidden along with her. I do think that it has to do with both the map and Luke being McGuffins when it's actually her. She's hidden in plain site, both within the story and on Jakku.

My first thought was that the whole reason why she had the mental image of the island was that it could be a place she'd been to with her parents or that they've been to and she was somehow tapping into that unconsciously via the Force. Or who knows? It could be another JJ-ism like the looping distress signal the survivors discover at the very beginning of Lost which is the first clue that things are more weird than a survivor story.  Hrm, come to think of it, Rey is also a fugitive at the end, much like how Kate is in Lost.

But the whole line from Raiders about an army that marches with it could be invincible, it's got to be one of the themes for the Force plot if they're exploring the origins of the Force. Snoke and Luke were both after the same thing with different agendas. And it's a good guess that it's tied in with what happened with Ben, his defection and the destruction of Luke's order, Luke's exile, and whatever happened to make Rey's parents leave her on Jakku with instructions to wait and never to return. And we also know that Kasdan and Johnson are friends, so they have to had discussed these topics.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 21 May - 7:19

@snufkin wrote:@ISeeAnIsland - @spacebaby45678 has speculated that she very well could be the Reyder of the Lost Ark and that something in her staff was left with her as a child on Jakku, which was something meant to be hidden along with her. I do think that it has to do with both the map and Luke being McGuffins when it's actually her. She's hidden in plain site, both within the story and on Jakku.

My first thought was that the whole reason why she had the mental image of the island was that it could be a place she'd been to with her parents or that they've been to and she was somehow tapping into that unconsciously via the Force. Or who knows? It could be another JJ-ism like the looping distress signal the survivors discover at the very beginning of Lost which is the first clue that things are more weird than a survivor story.  Hrm, come to think of it, Rey is also a fugitive at the end, much like how Kate is in Lost.

But the whole line from Raiders about an army that marches with it could be invincible, it's got to be one of the themes for the Force plot if they're exploring the origins of the Force. Snoke and Luke were both after the same thing with different agendas. And it's a good guess that it's tied in with what happened with Ben, his defection and the destruction of Luke's order, Luke's exile, and whatever happened to make Rey's parents leave her on Jakku with instructions to wait and never to return. And we also know that Kasdan and Johnson are friends, so they have to had discussed these topics.
@snufkin

Haha! Now we are getting somewhere... in AOTC, remember Obi discovers the army a clone army , as I said to @beastofmandalore the other day, there is an army to be uncovered or discovered in ST, will it be the stormtroopers defecting with Finn or will it be maybe the Mando's ? or maybe a dead army under the deserts of Jakku waiting to resurrected?


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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sun 21 May - 17:20

@spacebaby45678 - I sort of remember as much as finally watching it after seeing TFA and even with my attention span problems, I still can't tell you (or come up with a compelling reason) for almost everything that happens in those movies.

I do think that there's something Snoke is after which will consolidate his power. Which is a major part of why he's got Ben as part of his relic collecting program as the prize in that collection. And that everything is a McGuffin except for Rey, she's the key and that's tied into why she ended up on Jakku and her parents disappeared. And that there will be a tug of war between Uncle and Nephew over influencing her. Also agreed that Finn's major story will be about discovering and rescuing the Stormtrooper/child kidnapping program he's a product of.

But the Raiders stuff, if they go through with it, I'd be hella stoked. My interest in SW has come and gone but I've always loved Raiders from the first time I saw it.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 21 May - 17:47

@snufkin wrote:@spacebaby45678 - I sort of remember as much as finally watching it after seeing TFA and even with my attention span problems, I still can't tell you (or come up with a compelling reason) for almost everything that happens in those movies.

I do think that there's something Snoke is after which will consolidate his power. Which is a major part of why he's got Ben as part of his relic collecting program as the prize in that collection. And that everything is a McGuffin except for Rey, she's the key and that's tied into why she ended up on Jakku and her parents disappeared. And that there will be a tug of war between Uncle and Nephew over influencing her. Also agreed that Finn's major story will be about discovering and rescuing the Stormtrooper/child kidnapping program he's a product of.

But the Raiders stuff, if they go through with it, I'd be hella stoked. My interest in SW has come and gone but I've always loved Raiders from the first time I saw it.
@snufkin

As an aside, the ark is a feminine symbol in Catholicism, Mary is the Ark that carries the covenant Jesus..So the nature of the "ark" in ST would depend on the dispensation of the ST... if you get my drift.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sun 21 May - 18:01

@spacebaby45678 - I didn't, so that's interesting to consider. Kinda like @vaderito's theory about the new Adam and Eve of the Force. At least the Virgin Mary is less disturbing than all of the Rosemary's Baby implications for Leia in the Empire's End novels.

I love Raiders so much that to be honest, I'm still way more upset that that had Shia LeBarf of all people as Marion and Indy's kid than anything that happened with Kylo.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 21 May - 18:16

@snufkin wrote:@spacebaby45678 - I didn't, so that's interesting to consider. Kinda like @vaderito's theory about the new Adam and Eve of the Force. At least the Virgin Mary is less disturbing than all of the Rosemary's Baby implications for Leia in the Empire's End novels.

I love Raiders so much that to be honest, I'm still way more upset that that had Shia LeBarf of all people as Marion and Indy's kid than anything that happened with Kylo.
@snufkin

I will never understand Shia's stardom in Hollywood. He is not, nor has he ever been leading man material. IMHO
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sun 21 May - 18:18

@snufkin I always wonder if Kylo's childhood was anything like "We Need to Talk About Kevin." ::shudders::
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sun 21 May - 18:26

@cowgirlsamurai - you're not the only one! I haven't seen that one (I just saw the Michael Sheen movie about parents of a mass shooter that's pretty awful to sit through), but a quick Google brings up a bunch of articles with that title

Cut for size:



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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sun 21 May - 18:45

@snufkin I'm not alone! "Kevin" scared the heck out of me when I was pregnant. When I read about Snoke messing with Ben in the womb, and how he felt the pull to the dark side growing up, I immediately got Kevin vibes and wondered if Leia sent him to Luke for the same kind of terrifying behavior pale 

By the way, Ezra Miller, who played teenage Kevin, totally looks like he could be Rey and Kylo's kid:

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Kessel on Sun 21 May - 19:01

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@snufkin I'm not alone! "Kevin" scared the heck out of me when I was pregnant. When I read about Snoke messing with Ben in the womb, and how he felt the pull to the dark side growing up, I immediately got Kevin vibes and wondered if Leia sent him to Luke for the same kind of terrifying behavior pale 

By the way, Ezra Miller, who played teenage Kevin, totally looks like he could be Rey and Kylo's kid:

@Cowgirlsamurai

Yes, Ezra could definitely play Rey and Kylo's child. His unique features really do look like a mash up of the two. How awesome would it be to have a Episode X with Ezra playing their child....*sigh*

I love Ezra, not just because of his looks (although he's beautiful), but he's a fascinating and unique actor. He was creepily good in We Need to Talk About Kevin and also great in The Perks of Being a Wallflower. He also played Credence in Fantastic Beasts.

He's going to play the Flash in the next Marvel action hero movie. I'm not as excited about that role as I don't think it will be a very "compelling" one, but it's good to see him getting more recognition.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 21 May - 19:07

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@snufkin I'm not alone! "Kevin" scared the heck out of me when I was pregnant. When I read about Snoke messing with Ben in the womb, and how he felt the pull to the dark side growing up, I immediately got Kevin vibes and wondered if Leia sent him to Luke for the same kind of terrifying behavior pale 

By the way, Ezra Miller, who played teenage Kevin, totally looks like he could be Rey and Kylo's kid:

@Cowgirlsamurai

Yeah, a lot of us have said that Ezra could play a young Kylo.  I never thought of him being Rey and Kylo's kid though!  I don't know if the times will line up to actually cast him as their son in some future trilogy or whatever, but WOW, he would really work!

I love Ezra Miller.  He's been fantastic is everything that I have seen him in.  I'm glad that he got that major part in the mid-grade but solid Fantastic Beasts franchise because with the mess the DCEU seems to be, I don't know if that "The Flash" movie is ever going to happen.

In fact, putting uber-successful Marvel aside, the SW franchise seems to have their sith together more than some of these other ones.  I'm really glad Adam and Daisy got their "franchise gig" there as a opposed to some of the others.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by DarthRen on Sun 21 May - 19:10

@Darth Dingbat wrote:Spotted a fun Snoke theory on Reddit. Ties in with the kind of stuff some of us have loved to speculate about (royalty, the Elder Houses, knights, Mediaeval undertones, etc.).

https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/6c5gx4/theory_snoke_and_the_house_of_ren/?st=j2xjzgqh&sh=1b7965c0

I've speculated before that the Knights of Ren might have a link with royalty, but it never actually occurred to me that "Ren" might be, among other things, the name of a noble house.
@Darth Dingbat

That sounds interesting. I wonder if these guys do have Force powers and if so to what extent.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sun 21 May - 21:46

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@snufkin I'm not alone! "Kevin" scared the heck out of me when I was pregnant. When I read about Snoke messing with Ben in the womb, and how he felt the pull to the dark side growing up, I immediately got Kevin vibes and wondered if Leia sent him to Luke for the same kind of terrifying behavior :pale: 

@Cowgirlsamurai

When I finally saw TFA (in late February 2016) and went back to read the interviews, the one JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan did where they mentioned the FO being like if the Nazis who fled to Chile and Argentina were regrouping instead of hiding, my first thought was of the creepy old Ira Levin novel/movie The Boys from Brazil. Especially because Snoke seems to be trying to control/make Ben into a Vader clone. The other stuff which came out from Empire's End like you mentioned made me think of Rosemary's Baby (gah, poor Leia. Lady never gets a break). And those books too have a bit of a Boys from Brazil detail too with the mention of the Hux family child soldier program, which we know Finn managed to break his 'programming.'  I thought it reminded me of those books/movies because my parents had the paperbacks when I was growing up. But in the past few months, I've heard a couple interviews with Jordan Peele about Get Out. And without spoiling it for anybody who might still want to see it, he talks a lot about how Ira Levin's novels were a central inspiration for what he wrote. Two different movies and different writers. But on my wish list of questions I'd ask the filmmakers would be if they were inspired by any of those books/movies. Because if they're like Jordan Peele saying they were an inspiration for the story he wrote, that tips things in a very specific direction for what happened to Leia and Ben.

Yeah the "Kylo is a school shooter" articles may be a case of the story being planned out in 2014 in a different political and social environment. Because while it seems pretty clear from what's been shown in the movie and collateral material that while he likely did participate in the destruction and killed other students, we don't know enough yet to jump to the conclusion that it's exactly like RotS or any of the real life comparisons. I always had the impression between Han's words and the character as presented it was meant to be ambiguous, he was involved with something very bad of his own free will that split the family apart. But that there was something else going on, which the filmmakers weren't going to share with the audience until the next chapter. In the meanwhile, the Internet kind of went insane (as it does) with those type of hot takes and the theorizing that Rey had to be his cousin and fellow student who 14 year old Ben spared, mindwiped, and then dumped on Jakku. At least until Bloodline came out and disproved that theory, although it just drove some fans further into conspiracy theory territory.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ZioRen on Sun 21 May - 22:24

We now know that Kylo is too old to be representing a school shooter. The comparison was much more apt when we thought he was a teenager when it happened, but even then the Snoke manipulation aspect threw a monkey wrench into the typical angry youth story. The reasoning behind his actions will probably be quite different and not purely based on emotion. I still think he and Luke found out something about the Jedi that was one of the final straws.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by DarthRen on Sun 21 May - 22:50

@Angel Of Iego wrote:
@DarthRen wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:Spotted a fun Snoke theory on Reddit. Ties in with the kind of stuff some of us have loved to speculate about (royalty, the Elder Houses, knights, Mediaeval undertones, etc.).

https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/6c5gx4/theory_snoke_and_the_house_of_ren/?st=j2xjzgqh&sh=1b7965c0

I've speculated before that the Knights of Ren might have a link with royalty, but it never actually occurred to me that "Ren" might be, among other things, the name of a noble house.
@Darth Dingbat

That sounds interesting. I wonder if these guys do have Force powers and if so to what extent.
@DarthRen

I don't think Rens are Force Sensitive. Their weapons seem too much custom made with, like special uses, for them to be that.
@Angel Of Iego

They might be but not that developed. Well, there are many theories about them or whoelse could Force sensitive around from character namely Finn.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sun 21 May - 23:00

@snufkin @ZioRen I think I've heard Kylo compared to a youth radicalized by a terrorist organization somewhere (perhaps Scavenger's Hoard). That seems to fit the bill more to me, but TLJ's going to have to work hard to get any sympathy for Kylo from the audience. It's supposed to be flashback heavy, so I guess that's where Rey (and we) will gain some more perspective? JJ's mystery box was too deep, lol.
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