The Last Jedi: General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Irina de France on Fri 3 Mar - 18:48

snufkin wrote:Nice review of Bloodline from a comics website that lays out the future of exploring Space Politics in the ST, especially in comparison to the clunky execution in the PT:

Star Wars: Bloodline reveals the hidden history of Leia Organa and the First Order

The Phantom Menace is the most overtly political Star Wars film, and it’s also the one that gets it horribly wrong. The opening crawl reads with the dusty indifference of a bad history book. Throughout the film, there no sense of a grand Galactic Senate; no political daggers shining in the dark. It’s a tepid, impenetrable wheeze, delivered with the stumbling indifference of a sixth grader sniffing his way through a presentation on the industrial revolution. Bloodline shows us what could have been.

It’s sharp, direct, unpredictable. By putting Leia in a position of political influence, it helps rationalise all the stuff that’s happened to her. She’s a war hero, but she doesn't have the comfort of being a Jedi recluse. She has a role to play, as the very public face of the Populists, an unofficial faction of the Galactic Senate. And while Han’s away managing a racing championship, Leia is bound by duty, unable to live the life she wants. It’s a different kind of sacrifice. The central political schism of the book is believable without being boring, and it’s also a smart reminder, as if you needed one, of how malignant political forces can rise without people even noticing. It’s a decent explanation of the First Order, with obvious parallels to historical events that are more fulfilling than simplistic analogy.
@snufkin

I agree so much with this. It's even one of the reasons why I liked Lady Carise Sindian so much. I've read a lot of historical novels happening in 17th century Versailles that were all about court intrigue, backstabbing your enemies (in a metaphorical sense, of course... unless you're talking about the Affaire des Poisons Wink ), and flattering whatever important figurehead might help your case. Obviously, it was all in the context of Louis XIV and absolute monarchy, but Lady Carise really seemed like a character who had popped out of one of those novels and was put straight into the GFFA. George Lucas really missed an opportunity in TPM: it would have been super easy to insert political intrigue à la Versailles in the context of the Galactic Senate, especially with Padmé and Palpatine around, but it had poor results in the end.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Darth Dingbat on Fri 3 Mar - 19:55

Apropos of nothing, but a friendly reminder that we're already in MARCH and yet we know pretty much nothing about the film.

Incredible.

On the bright side, we're already in March! We got through the worst of it already! At this point I'm not sure I'd even mind if we got no spoilers at all before December. That worked out pretty well with RO.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Irina de France on Fri 3 Mar - 19:58

Darth Dingbat wrote:Apropos of nothing, but a friendly reminder that we're already in MARCH and yet we know pretty much nothing about the film.

Incredible.

On the bright side, we're already in March! We got through the worst of it already! At this point I'm not sure I'd even mind if we got no spoilers at all before December. That worked out pretty well with RO.
@Darth Dingbat

Yeah, but at the same time, I can't really say anyone was actively seeking R1 spoilers, either. Well, at least the BatB is FINALLY coming out, and Celebration is next month. They'll release a trailer there for sure.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Fri 3 Mar - 22:14

Irina de France wrote:
snufkin wrote:Nice review of Bloodline from a comics website that lays out the future of exploring Space Politics in the ST, especially in comparison to the clunky execution in the PT:

Star Wars: Bloodline reveals the hidden history of Leia Organa and the First Order

The Phantom Menace is the most overtly political Star Wars film, and it’s also the one that gets it horribly wrong. The opening crawl reads with the dusty indifference of a bad history book. Throughout the film, there no sense of a grand Galactic Senate; no political daggers shining in the dark. It’s a tepid, impenetrable wheeze, delivered with the stumbling indifference of a sixth grader sniffing his way through a presentation on the industrial revolution. Bloodline shows us what could have been.

It’s sharp, direct, unpredictable. By putting Leia in a position of political influence, it helps rationalise all the stuff that’s happened to her. She’s a war hero, but she doesn't have the comfort of being a Jedi recluse. She has a role to play, as the very public face of the Populists, an unofficial faction of the Galactic Senate. And while Han’s away managing a racing championship, Leia is bound by duty, unable to live the life she wants. It’s a different kind of sacrifice. The central political schism of the book is believable without being boring, and it’s also a smart reminder, as if you needed one, of how malignant political forces can rise without people even noticing. It’s a decent explanation of the First Order, with obvious parallels to historical events that are more fulfilling than simplistic analogy.
@snufkin

I agree so much with this. It's even one of the reasons why I liked Lady Carise Sindian so much. I've read a lot of historical novels happening in 17th century Versailles that were all about court intrigue, backstabbing your enemies (in a metaphorical sense, of course... unless you're talking about the Affaire des Poisons ;) ), and flattering whatever important figurehead might help your case. Obviously, it was all in the context of Louis XIV and absolute monarchy, but Lady Carise really seemed like a character who had popped out of one of those novels and was put straight into the GFFA. George Lucas really missed an opportunity in TPM: it would have been super easy to insert political intrigue à la Versailles in the context of the Galactic Senate, especially with Padmé and Palpatine around, but it had poor results in the end.

@Irina de France

I'm the smart a** who's compared Padme to a high school class president and loves all of the PT related gags in Parks & Recreation that are about politics. So this review won me over by saying that the PT conveys Space Politics with the same amount of depth and insight as a kid being forced to do a report for school.

Dune is the other book which comes to mind about politics and alliances/intrigue. Because it was an influence on the OT, including how several members of the production team from Alejandro Jodorowsky's failed adaption worked on the first movie. My first introduction to that book was hearing it read every Sunday by one of the DJs for our hippie community radio station. The beginning part of that novel brought the politics, alliances, personal ambitions, and back stabbings to life in a way the PT never does. Bloodline also does that really well, especially the context of the post RotJ world and the specifics of Leia's life and relationship with the men in her family, especially the respective legacies of her biological and adoptive fathers. It sounds like we'll at least get a little bit of that world in TLJ - especially because RJ is on record expressing appreciation for the PT and worked with Claudia Grey on some of the story details.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sat 4 Mar - 21:47

Worth posting because of some of the recent discussion about what will happen in TLJ with the comparisons to ESB. Not that it'll be  repetition of the exact plot points:

Irving Kershner wrote:It has to be slower and more lyrical. The themes have to be more interior."

Rian Johnson wrote:"I wanted to know more about each of them, and that doesn’t just mean information or backstory. Figure out what’s the most difficult thing each of them could be challenged with now—let’s throw that at them and dig into what really makes them tick by seeing how they handle that."

also...

Daisy Ridley wrote:"Now I look at things and think how are people going to react to them because of the way people have responded to Rey. Carrie calls herself the custodian of Leia, and now I feel like the custodian of Rey. I understand what people loved in VII. I'm carrying that responsibility with me."

Mark Hamill wrote:"When you read The Force Awakens script, the very first words are, 'Luke Skywalker has vanished. But down later in the crawl, and I can’t quote it exactly, I saw on Twitter this morning, 'until Skywalker, the last Jedi, is destroyed,'...And I was wondering why they would use that phrase if it was used that way, because it specifies me. And I think it’s very ambiguous. Is the last Jedi Leia? Is it me?"


Last edited by snufkin on Sat 4 Mar - 22:14; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Piper Maru on Sat 4 Mar - 21:52

People who are expecting a screwball comedy with Rey, Poe and Finn being the protagonists are going to be disappointed.

I'm also ready for the eventual heartbreak when they reveal Rey's parentage. It's not going to be pretty.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Maria Antonietta on Mon 6 Mar - 16:21

Guys, who's got those Luke's concept art pics? The creepy af ones
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 6 Mar - 16:31

Maria Antonietta wrote:Guys, who's got those Luke's concept art pics? The creepy af ones
@Maria Antonietta

I've got the book - I'll scan them for you (or take photos, my scanner might be too small for that book) if nobody else has them saved Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Maria Antonietta on Mon 6 Mar - 16:58

Darth Dingbat wrote:
Maria Antonietta wrote:Guys, who's got those Luke's concept art pics? The creepy af ones
@Maria Antonietta

I've got the book - I'll scan them for you (or take photos, my scanner might be too small for that book) if nobody else has them saved Smile
@Darth Dingbat

I think someone posted them a while back, or it was through pm, I can't remember. If you don't mind Very Happy
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 6 Mar - 17:04

Sorry, I messed up my post... I'll try again
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 6 Mar - 17:10

Maria Antonietta wrote:
Darth Dingbat wrote:
Maria Antonietta wrote:Guys, who's got those Luke's concept art pics? The creepy af ones
@Maria Antonietta

I've got the book - I'll scan them for you (or take photos, my scanner might be too small for that book) if nobody else has them saved Smile
@Darth Dingbat

I think someone posted them a while back, or it was through pm, I can't remember. If you don't mind Very Happy
@Maria Antonietta

Some of the Luke concepts were online:





Btw, doesn't it look like Luke is in an Ahch-To hut in this one: [/img]

I couldn't find the creepiest one, however. But I'll get it for you.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Maria Antonietta on Mon 6 Mar - 18:31

Darth Dingbat wrote:
Maria Antonietta wrote:
Darth Dingbat wrote:
Maria Antonietta wrote:Guys, who's got those Luke's concept art pics? The creepy af ones
@Maria Antonietta

I've got the book - I'll scan them for you (or take photos, my scanner might be too small for that book) if nobody else has them saved Smile
@Darth Dingbat

I think someone posted them a while back, or it was through pm, I can't remember. If you don't mind Very Happy
@Maria Antonietta

Some of the Luke concepts were online:





Btw, doesn't it look like Luke is in an Ahch-To hut in this one: [/img]

I couldn't find the creepiest one, however. But I'll get it for you.
@Darth Dingbat

Thanks Very Happy
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by panki on Tue 7 Mar - 10:45

Darth Dingbat wrote:
Maria Antonietta wrote:
Darth Dingbat wrote:
Maria Antonietta wrote:Guys, who's got those Luke's concept art pics? The creepy af ones
@Maria Antonietta

I've got the book - I'll scan them for you (or take photos, my scanner might be too small for that book) if nobody else has them saved Smile
@Darth Dingbat

I think someone posted them a while back, or it was through pm, I can't remember. If you don't mind Very Happy
@Maria Antonietta

Some of the Luke concepts were online:





Btw, doesn't it look like Luke is in an Ahch-To hut in this one: [/img]

I couldn't find the creepiest one, however. But I'll get it for you.
@Darth Dingbat

The first image looks like some of the places doctor Aphra investigates in the comic series...maybe Luke discovers some underground sith shrine like the one on Coruscant?

Luke seems to be sitting by a castle window in a place with a rainy or smoky atmosphere.....Vader's castle on Mustafar? It would be curious if Luke had occupied his father's castle and set up his jedi order there.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Helix on Tue 7 Mar - 10:49

I know a big complaint/concern with the ST is that we won't see any other humanized Stormtroopers like Finn. It got me thinking about how Gundam ( a series that borrowed a lot from SW ) handled giving the baddy grunts personalities other than 'evil or comedic' like SW 'troopers. A scene that comes to mind is a random grunt Zaku ( basically a Gundam 'Trooper ) pushing their ally out of the way of incoming fire only for both to be blown up. It humanized them, these are people too. Even if they're on the 'wrong side'.

Honestly I hope the ST does try something to that effect with 'Troopers other than just Finn.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 9 Mar - 23:14

I finally finished Empire's End.

spoiler:

I found it interesting that in the last section, as the remnants of the Empire are evacuating/retreating to the Unknown Regions, that they're following the path that was set up by Palpatine, based on whatever dark side force was calling him from there (Snoke?). There's talk of there being a lot of interference/static interfering with radio signals out that way, speculating that it was caused by storms, magnetic fields, etc.

This gave me two possible ideas of what might have happened in the past, with regards to TLJ:

1. Given that Ben and Luke were unreachable due to radiation or whatever it was, I'm thinking that whatever they were doing, they were out in the unknown regions.
2. This would fit very nicely with the "Rey's parents unleashed Snoke" theory. If her parents were fleeing Imperials, it sounds like the remnants of that fleet could very well end up being the ones to unleash Snoke/lead him into the GFFA.



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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by WhatGirl on Thu 9 Mar - 23:57

@iseeanisland

Yes, I think that makes sense about Luke and Ben being someplace that caused them to lose contact. I wonder if Ahch-To is such a place as well. Perhaps that planet has some kind of static barrier that prevents all outside communication, including by means of the Force. It would explain why no one, not even Force users, have been able to find Luke without a physical map. So, not only would Kylo lose contact with the FO, but also with Snoke.

For the first time in his life, no Snoke in his mind. Maybe this will allow Ben to make a different decision than he did on SKB? Just a thought. cat
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 10 Mar - 0:13

ISeeAnIsland wrote:I finally finished Empire's End.

spoiler:

I found it interesting that in the last section, as the remnants of the Empire are evacuating/retreating to the Unknown Regions, that they're following the path that was set up by Palpatine, based on whatever dark side force was calling him from there (Snoke?). There's talk of there being a lot of interference/static interfering with radio signals out that way, speculating that it was caused by storms, magnetic fields, etc.

This gave me two possible ideas of what might have happened in the past, with regards to TLJ:

1. Given that Ben and Luke were unreachable due to radiation or whatever it was, I'm thinking that whatever they were doing, they were out in the unknown regions.
2. This would fit very nicely with the "Rey's parents unleashed Snoke" theory. If her parents were fleeing Imperials, it sounds like the remnants of that fleet could very well end up being the ones to unleash Snoke/lead him into the GFFA.


@ISeeAnIsland

Oh wow ... that fits really well. There are a lot of possibilities in that scenario. Wow!
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 10 Mar - 0:21

WhatGirl wrote:@iseeanisland

Yes, I think that makes sense about Luke and Ben being someplace that caused them to lose contact. I wonder if Ahch-To is such a place as well. Perhaps that planet has some kind of static barrier that prevents all outside communication, including by means of the Force. It would explain why no one, not even Force users, have been able to find Luke without a physical map. So, not only would Kylo lose contact with the FO, but also with Snoke.

For the first time in his life, no Snoke in his mind. Maybe this will allow Ben to make a different decision than he did on SKB? Just a thought. cat
@WhatGirl

Ooh, I love that idea re: Ahch-To.

A couple more thoughts on these theories:

1. What if Luke and Ben were following the same signal that the fleeing Imperials followed 30 years ago? Maybe they had some awareness of Snoke or that they were following the trail to the "source of the dark side of the force" to fight/stop it? Maybe they even ran across the old computer on Jakku that was generating the route? (Given that Sith artifacts were also housed at the Observatory?) Perhaps Luke and Ben were chasing after Snoke, not really knowing who/what they were chasing, and Ben wound up ensnared by Snoke?

2. If Rey's parents were part of the fleeing Imperial remnants and unleashed Snoke, maybe they realized what they had done, and got the heck out of there (there = Unknown regions). Since Jakku was the "last stop" before the UR and Imperials who had fled from there would probably be familiar with it, it might make sense that they'd drop Rey there as they fled or were captured.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 10 Mar - 1:08

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
WhatGirl wrote:@iseeanisland

Yes, I think that makes sense about Luke and Ben being someplace that caused them to lose contact. I wonder if Ahch-To is such a place as well. Perhaps that planet has some kind of static barrier that prevents all outside communication, including by means of the Force. It would explain why no one, not even Force users, have been able to find Luke without a physical map. So, not only would Kylo lose contact with the FO, but also with Snoke.

For the first time in his life, no Snoke in his mind. Maybe this will allow Ben to make a different decision than he did on SKB? Just a thought. cat
@WhatGirl

Ooh, I love that idea re: Ahch-To.

A couple more thoughts on these theories:

1. What if Luke and Ben were following the same signal that the fleeing Imperials followed 30 years ago? Maybe they had some awareness of Snoke or that they were following the trail to the "source of the dark side of the force" to fight/stop it? Maybe they even ran across the old computer on Jakku that was generating the route? (Given that Sith artifacts were also housed at the Observatory?) Perhaps Luke and Ben were chasing after Snoke, not really knowing who/what they were chasing, and Ben wound up ensnared by Snoke?

2. If Rey's parents were part of the fleeing Imperial remnants and unleashed Snoke, maybe they realized what they had done, and got the heck out of there (there = Unknown regions). Since Jakku was the "last stop" before the UR and Imperials who had fled from there would probably be familiar with it, it might make sense that they'd drop Rey there as they fled or were captured.
@ISeeAnIsland

Right.  I agree with both of you.

And think about this, "something/someone cough Snoke" has been in Ben's head all along.  It's made Ben feel alienated and like he didn't belong.  But then as they get closer to Snoke ... I don't want to say it's like a siren's song exactly, but what if Ben suddenly feels this really insidious familiarity, while at the same time Luke is making some big mistake and/or upsetting him, etc., and then Snoke seduces him in this "I finally feel like I am really home/Someone sees my worth" illusion ... he could even be kind of in a childlike thrall with it ... but once he's fallen, he sees that it's all a lie ... but then he's fallen and he's resigned to his fate, perhaps even thinking in a pre-suicidal/martyr-like way of "maybe my life will be worth something if I destroy Snoke" or maybe even crazier "this happened because I was meant to destroy Snoke".  But either way he is hell-bent on his mission.  That Acolytes of Beyond stuff really makes me think that he's had visions/dreams telling him of some destiny.  Maybe Luke dismissed them ... I don't know, but if they actually show flashbacks of Luke and Ben in Snoke's "clutches" and show them both being "broken" by him in different ways, like Snoke is a whispering demon in each of their ears, then that would be riveting and epic.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Fri 10 Mar - 7:12

My only question is how in the heck do Leia and Han know who Snoke is? It seems like he has to have had some kind of prior access to the family. At least enough to know about Leia being Luke's sibling and pregnant with a FS child.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by DarthRen on Sat 11 Mar - 12:14

Piper Maru wrote:People who are expecting a screwball comedy with Rey, Poe and Finn being the protagonists are going to be disappointed.

I'm also ready for the eventual heartbreak when they reveal Rey's parentage. It's not going to be pretty.
@Piper Maru

They're using these three as the new big trio and while from a certain point of view it makes sense. Luke, Leia, Han were the OT trio but they are diminishing Kylo's/Ben's impact on the story as that this white, privileged and spoiled boy and forgetting that OT was as much about Darth Vader as it was about these three Luke, Leia and Han. He played a key part as their antagonist and both Darth Vader /Anakin Skywalker or Kylo/Ben Solo are tragic characters in a way they think their way of doing things is the right way. As Adam said Kylo/Ben thinks he is a hero from his point of view and villains/antagonists are in general heroes of their own stories.

If people dislike Kylo/Ben and Rey eventual romance is fine, everybody got their taste but to diminsh his impact on the story is just stupid. In fact Kylo/Ben might be most progressive character in space of three episodes as Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker basically had 6 movies for his character development.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Wed 15 Mar - 18:42

Just discovered this site, which has a fair amount of SW related essays and a YouTube channel, including the Kurosawa influence with Rogue One as an example of combining epic and intimate.



The video discusses both the cinematic and narrative influences the OT lifted from Kurosawa, including the theme of how to be a moral person in a corrupt society.

How does “Star Wars: The Force Awakens” compare to the original trilogy

Why is “Empire Strikes Back” considered the best of the original trilogy

How does the Force Awakens Represent Women
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by spacebaby45678 on Thu 16 Mar - 15:08

Hiding your light side presence on a planet that is strong in the darkside. That is what both Yoda & Obi wan did on Dagobah & Tatooine, very good explanation in this video that could give us hints about Ach to & Jakku.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 16 Mar - 21:12

I just had a "duh!" moment. The Acolytes of the Beyond that appear in Life Debt and Empire's End...we know from Empire's End that some dark entity contacts them through their dreams.

I'd just assumed that the "of the Beyond" part of their name was simply a cool, ominous sounding phrase. But what if "Beyond" refers to the Unknown Regions (i.e. "beyond" the known galaxy)? That could be a direct link between them and Snoke, since it seemed like the end of Empire's End was pretty heavily foreshadowing that the remaining Imperials were following some calling from Snoke out to the UR...

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Mana on Fri 17 Mar - 0:51

Do you think we'll get the official TLJ movie poster at Celebration next month? Or is it too soon?
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