The Last Jedi: General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sun 21 May - 23:30

@Cowgirlsamurai - Along with a lot of other 'assumptions' that came out after TFA's release, I never thought he was meant to be a school shooter type from what I saw in the movie. More like a combination of the "he's got too much of his father in him" and Obi-Wan's speech from the first movie. Somebody with great potential/legacy to live up to, but probably also potential to cause trouble.

Not that most audience members bother to read the books, but they seem to be hinting at something other than a bad seed from the some of the quote. Like Lando's appearance in Empire's End as a PoV character in part to comment on Han and Leia (because he knows them so well)'s volatile relationship and mutual temperaments resulting in a child who's probably going to be an equally hot tempered/trouble making personality. Or even the quote from Han to baby Ben about sometimes doing the right thing doesn't mean taking a straight path. Or even in Bloodline with the quotes from Leia to Han about becoming grandparents or her PoV being some clues that Luke: a) has molded their father to the ideal he already had in mind for his deceased father (counter to how the rest of the galaxy feels) and b) being off the grid with Ben probably getting involved with something that'll contribute to the ensuing trouble. Claudia Grey has said that there was some coordination between her and Rian Johnson for Bloodline. So I suspect we're going to find out the dirt on what Luke was doing with Ben during that time period. Which is likely getting mixed up with something that caused a rift and instead of helping his sister's only kid, made everything blow up and shatter the family.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ZioRen on Sun 21 May - 23:36

Whatever happened with Luke and Ben in that huge time gap is definitely the main missing link here. I think any issues he had with Han and Leia and having Snoke in his head prior to getting sent to Luke was just the beginning stirrings of what would eventually become an explosive problem. Bricks in a wall and not so much the true cause.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Kessel on Mon 22 May - 1:07

ZioRen wrote:Whatever happened with Luke and Ben in that huge time gap is definitely the main missing link here. I think any issues he had with Han and Leia and having Snoke in his head prior to getting sent to Luke was just the beginning stirrings of what would eventually become an explosive problem. Bricks in a wall and not so much the true cause.
@ZioRen

Yeah, there are a lot of hints that this is the case. We have Luke and Rey on Ahch-to and Kylo going there too, in some capacity. Then there's the rumor that we're getting more flashbacks and there's the teaser poster which screams that there's some kind of Force conflict involving Luke and Kylo, and Rey seems to be right in the middle of it. I can't wait to see what Rian does with the Force lore and what went down between Luke and Kylo.

I assume it will tie into Vader's mission (for Kylo) at some point, yet it looks like others things happened before Vader came into the picture.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ZioRen on Mon 22 May - 1:16

I suppose there's a good reason that Luke and Kylo are bisected together in TLJ's poster. Their relationship has some serious baggage in it that we're going to discover. I mean, if Kylo really was sent to Luke as a young teenager or perhaps even younger, then Luke basically raised him for years. Which makes the rumor that he wants Kylo dead even more disturbing.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Mon 22 May - 1:18

Kessel wrote:
ZioRen wrote:Whatever happened with Luke and Ben in that huge time gap is definitely the main missing link here. I think any issues he had with Han and Leia and having Snoke in his head prior to getting sent to Luke was just the beginning stirrings of what would eventually become an explosive problem. Bricks in a wall and not so much the true cause.
@ZioRen

Yeah, there are a lot of hints that this is the case. We have Luke and Rey on Ahch-to and Kylo going there too, in some capacity. Then there's the rumor that we're getting more flashbacks and there's the teaser poster which screams that there's some kind of Force conflict involving Luke and Kylo, and Rey seems to be right in the middle of it. I can't wait to see what Rian does with the Force lore and what went down between Luke and Kylo.

I assume it will tie into Vader's mission (for Kylo) at some point, yet it looks like others things happened before Vader came into the picture.
@Kessel

I feel like the groundwork will have already been laid for Ben's fall (Snoke in his head, feeling abandoned by Han and Leia, etc.) but that the Vader reveal is going to end up being the final straw for Ben--whether it causes the padawans to gang up on Ben, or alerts the KoR to who Ben is, and they come for him, or something else.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ZioRen on Mon 22 May - 1:21

Considering Ben and Luke were basically off the grid together according to Leia in Bloodline, Luke would go off alone (if him being gone during the massacre is any indication), and Snoke being with Ben for a while, I wonder how long Ben was really involved with Snoke. It's possible that things were starting beyond Snoke being in his head before Kylo ultimately took the plunge during the massacre. It's not guaranteed that Luke would always know what Ben was up to.

There's so much they can do with that big time gap. And both of them knew Lor San Tekka in that time too. Sounds like a good set up for a comic series, eventually!
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Mon 22 May - 1:26

ZioRen wrote:I suppose there's a good reason that Luke and Kylo are bisected together in TLJ's poster. Their relationship has some serious baggage in it that we're going to discover. I mean, if Kylo really was sent to Luke as a young teenager or perhaps even younger, then Luke basically raised him for years. Which makes the rumor that he wants Kylo dead even more disturbing.
@ZioRen

Right. I believe that JJ referred to Ben having a "troubled adolescence", and in their most recent NTIP, MSW made references to Ben "falling in with the wrong crowd" before being sent to Luke (which would seem to be a teenage thing). So I'm cautiously going with the assumption that Ben was in his teens when he got sent away.

Rey bisecting the two of them would also seem to indicate that Luke isn't the one going to be entirely "right" here, and that Kylo's views probably have at least some merit, otherwise Rey would be more clearly siding with Luke and not caught in the middle.

Until we hear otherwise, though, I'm going to go with the theory that Luke tells Rey to kill Kylo because Luke discovers Rey and Kylo's connection, and the only way that Rey can sever it is to kill Kylo. (I think @nonesuch gets the credit for that.) To me, that makes more sense than Luke thinking that Kylo is beyond hope.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Mon 22 May - 2:20

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
ZioRen wrote:I suppose there's a good reason that Luke and Kylo are bisected together in TLJ's poster. Their relationship has some serious baggage in it that we're going to discover. I mean, if Kylo really was sent to Luke as a young teenager or perhaps even younger, then Luke basically raised him for years. Which makes the rumor that he wants Kylo dead even more disturbing.
@ZioRen

Right. I believe that JJ referred to Ben having a "troubled adolescence", and in their most recent NTIP, MSW made references to Ben "falling in with the wrong crowd" before being sent to Luke (which would seem to be a teenage thing). So I'm cautiously going with the assumption that Ben was in his teens when he got sent away.

Rey bisecting the two of them would also seem to indicate that Luke isn't the one going to be entirely "right" here, and that Kylo's views probably have at least some merit, otherwise Rey would be more clearly siding with Luke and not caught in the middle.

Until we hear otherwise, though, I'm going to go with the theory that Luke tells Rey to kill Kylo because Luke discovers Rey and Kylo's connection, and the only way that Rey can sever it is to kill Kylo. (I think @nonesuch gets the credit for that.) To me, that makes more sense than Luke thinking that Kylo is beyond hope.

@ISeeAnIsland

The "troubled adolescence" and "wrong crowd" comments don't sound out of bounds with Uncle Lando's musings about this parents. Certainly young Han w/Force Powers sound like a recipe for trouble. It'll be a question of what reasons they show for it, acting out for attention (did Han and Leia start mentoring young people as a result of this), "too much of his father in him," Snoke's influence, stereotypical trouble making kid of a high profile parent, et cetera?

@nonesuch's theory makes sense in terms of Luke may simply think that he needs to protect Rey from getting dragged any further into Kylo's path/influence. Like there's nothing they can do for Ben, but at least save/protect Rey from the Darkness that's overtaken him. It wouldn't make a difference in terms of why she'd refuse - family is the central value that's driven her. Including staying on Jakku waiting and taking up the cause to get BB-8 "home."  We haven't been privvy  to whatever discussion she's had with Leia about what happened on SKB or the family history to date. But I'd guess a big part of her initial motivation for going to Ache-to is hoping to reunite a woman who's already lost her son and husband with her brother and potentially also learning more about her family if he knew them as fellow Force users. So it'd be hard for her at her core to do anything that would further separate/take apart a family. Let alone kill the son of the woman who she's trying to help.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Mon 22 May - 18:34

We've got a new Captain Phasma article posted to the official Star Wars website:

http://www.starwars.com/news/5-things-you-might-not-know-about-captain-phasma

Based on the stuff we've heard from MSW (and Bothan-Spy), I'm starting to wonder if Phasma is being set up to be the non-Snoke Big Bad for TLJ. We're certainly hearing lots about her...and continue to hear nothing about Hux.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Kessel on Mon 22 May - 20:22

ISeeAnIsland wrote:We've got a new Captain Phasma article posted to the official Star Wars website:

http://www.starwars.com/news/5-things-you-might-not-know-about-captain-phasma

Based on the stuff we've heard from MSW (and Bothan-Spy), I'm starting to wonder if Phasma is being set up to be the non-Snoke Big Bad for TLJ. We're certainly hearing lots about her...and continue to hear nothing about Hux.
@ISeeAnIsland

It looks like thst might be the case, especially for Finn. I could see Phasma being Finn' s "big evil" in TLJ after the executioner stormtrooper. I had a feeling (and hope) Phasma's role would be expanded in TLJ. It's interesting they're publishing a book about her, especially after how little focus she got in TFA. I look forward to thebook because I'm curious about her.

Perhaps this means Hux bites the dust rather quickly...I always assumed Hux dies at some point and I can't imagine Snoke is happy with him after SKB. Plus, unlike Kylo, Hux has no Force powers to exploit so he's more replaceable.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by IoJovi on Mon 22 May - 20:26

Kessel wrote:
ISeeAnIsland wrote:We've got a new Captain Phasma article posted to the official Star Wars website:

http://www.starwars.com/news/5-things-you-might-not-know-about-captain-phasma

Based on the stuff we've heard from MSW (and Bothan-Spy), I'm starting to wonder if Phasma is being set up to be the non-Snoke Big Bad for TLJ. We're certainly hearing lots about her...and continue to hear nothing about Hux.
@ISeeAnIsland

It looks like thst might be the case, especially for Finn. I could see Phasma being Finn' s "big evil" in TLJ after the executioner stormtrooper. I had a feeling (and hope) Phasma's role would be expanded in TLJ. It's interesting they're publishing a book about her, especially after how little focus she got in TFA. I look forward to thebook because I'm curious about her.

Perhaps this means Hux bites the dust rather quickly...I always assumed Hux dies at some point and I can't imagine Snoke is happy with him after SKB. Plus, unlike Kylo, Hux has no Force powers to exploit so he's more replaceable.
@Kessel

I'm of this train of thought too. We've got info (big or small) on every single actor appearing (Oscar Isaac, John Boyega, Daisy Ridley, loads of KMT, Laura Dern, BdT, Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher), but Domnhall Gleason is no where to be found. There's not one iota of information. I feel bad for Hux fans because I think they're going to be sorely disappointed when he bites it in the first act, most likely by Snoke's hand.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Darth_Awakened on Mon 22 May - 20:41

I can't avoid noticing Reylo at Captain Phasma's cover. (I would have expected Finn instead).




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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Mon 22 May - 20:43

IoJovi wrote:
Kessel wrote:
ISeeAnIsland wrote:We've got a new Captain Phasma article posted to the official Star Wars website:

http://www.starwars.com/news/5-things-you-might-not-know-about-captain-phasma

Based on the stuff we've heard from MSW (and Bothan-Spy), I'm starting to wonder if Phasma is being set up to be the non-Snoke Big Bad for TLJ. We're certainly hearing lots about her...and continue to hear nothing about Hux.
@ISeeAnIsland

It looks like thst might be the case, especially for Finn. I could see Phasma being Finn' s "big evil" in TLJ after the executioner stormtrooper. I had a feeling (and hope) Phasma's role would be expanded in TLJ. It's interesting they're publishing a book about her, especially after how little focus she got in TFA. I look forward to thebook because I'm curious about her.

Perhaps this means Hux bites the dust rather quickly...I always assumed Hux dies at some point and I can't imagine Snoke is happy with him after SKB. Plus, unlike Kylo, Hux has no Force powers to exploit so he's more replaceable.
@Kessel

I'm of this train of thought too. We've got info (big or small) on every single actor appearing (Oscar Isaac, John Boyega, Daisy Ridley, loads of KMT, Laura Dern, BdT, Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher), but Domnhall Gleason is no where to be found. There's not one iota of information. I feel bad for Hux fans because I think they're going to be sorely disappointed when he bites it in the first act, most likely by Snoke's hand.
@IoJovi

Agreed. The ONLY things we've heard on Hux in the past 18 months were the speculation of Hux, Kylo, and Phasma all being summoned to Snoke early on in the movie, and that one still image that we got at Celebration.

Like you, I wouldn't be surprised if that's Hux's only appearance in TLJ...Snoke kills him both as punishment and to send a message to Kylo.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by panki on Mon 22 May - 21:01

Darth_Awakened wrote:I can't avoid noticing Reylo at Captain Phasma's cover. (I would have expected Finn instead).



@Darth_Awakened

I think this is probably because Phasma witnessed the forest fight scene on SKB after escaping the trash compactor....infact she would have witnessed everything we see on the comic book cover while escaping i.e. the TIE fighters, the Millennium Falcon flying (with Chewie in it) and even Rey and Kylo....Finn was unconscious at the time so she might not have even noticed him then....what is more possible is that she helped Hux get a wounded Kylo onto a ship while escaping....

Hopefully we'll get to see what happened to Kylo after the fight.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Helix on Mon 22 May - 21:15

Phasma does seem to be getting the push. No Hux comic series or novels and it doesn't seem likely anytime soon. I guess he's the sacrificial lamb of the FO now.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ZioRen on Mon 22 May - 21:30

I guess it makes sense. Hux has no real connection to anyone but Kylo, as his rival of sorts. They don't work together like a Vader and Tarkin. Meanwhile, Phasma has direct connection to Finn and his arc, so she still has major use. Kylo is clearly about to expand his circle of character interactions and it doesn't seem like Hux will be all that relevant anymore except as a vehicle to show how Kylo has changed (if Kylo kills him) or a warning (if Snoke kills him).
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Mon 22 May - 21:38

ZioRen wrote:I guess it makes sense. Hux has no real connection to anyone but Kylo, as his rival of sorts. They don't work together like a Vader and Tarkin. Meanwhile, Phasma has direct connection to Finn and his arc, so she still has major use. Kylo is clearly about to expand his circle of character interactions and it doesn't seem like Hux will be all that relevant anymore except as a vehicle to show how Kylo has changed (if Kylo kills him) or a warning (if Snoke kills him).
@ZioRen


Or if Kylux comes out of nowhere Wink
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 22 May - 22:08

Darth_Awakened wrote:I can't avoid noticing Reylo at Captain Phasma's cover. (I would have expected Finn instead).



@Darth_Awakened

You know this is interesting because in the bit of the trailer where Kylo is looking fabulous twirling his lightsaber, where we see the blue lightsaber in his eyes (aka Rey), there is a lot of fire behind him.  We also see Phasma in the trailer being around a ton of fire.  Are they going to have 3 fire scenes? (1) Luke finding the burning temple, (2) Phasma and her fire and (3) Kylo near a whole other fire (crash landing on Ahch-to or "burning force tree" or exploding hut or whatever other scenarios have been floated).  Is Rian using a kind of "it all needs to burn and start over" or some other kind of "fire symbolism" ... OR ... Are Kylo and Rey actually with Phasma when he's twirling that lightsaber? Could that be a turning point for him?  Protecting Rey and/or turning on the FO by confronting Phasma?

I also agree that Phasma is turning out to be a bigger deal this go-around.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 22 May - 22:15

ISeeAnIsland wrote:We've got a new Captain Phasma article posted to the official Star Wars website:

http://www.starwars.com/news/5-things-you-might-not-know-about-captain-phasma

Based on the stuff we've heard from MSW (and Bothan-Spy), I'm starting to wonder if Phasma is being set up to be the non-Snoke Big Bad for TLJ. We're certainly hearing lots about her...and continue to hear nothing about Hux.
@ISeeAnIsland

This article is very interesting. Again we get hinting of "manipulating her troops" mind and body.  But also the face that her suit and blaster are resistant to radiation caught my eye.  Does she have "bloodburn" like Greer? Is that like a superhero/villain weakness ... like Vader she needs the suit to survive? Also, think about how Leia couldn't contact Ben and Luke because they were in an area of high radiation and it affected the the communication lines.  Was Phasma around when it "all went down" with Luke and Ben? That could explain that "massive destruction" look of the Jedi temple.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Mon 22 May - 22:57

Dammit, if they kill off Hux, we'll never get more of The Office in Space where he and Kylo continue to snipe and throw shade at each other in hopes of becoming Assistant Regional Vice Manager of the First Order. Then again, Hux doesn't really get much to do other than barking orders, strutting around like a Hugo Boss runway model, sucking up to Snoke, and tattling on/side eyeing Kylo. That's not exactly the stuff of compelling Space Opera storylines.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SheLitAFire on Tue 23 May - 0:39

I'd be sad if Hux gets killed off early in TLJ because Domhnall Gleeson did such a great job in that "totalitarian speech scene" I'd love to see more from him in this role. But I agree with you all that they're not setting up his character to be a major character so I can see how he might not last long.


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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by IoJovi on Tue 23 May - 0:40

SheLitAFire wrote:I'd be sad if Hux gets killed off early in TLJ because Domnhall Gleeson did such a great job in that "totalitarian speech scene" I'd love to see more from him in this role. But I agree with you all that they're not setting up his character to be a major character so I can see how he might not last long.
@SheLitAFire

I totally agree. I love me some General Ginger and if we are right, he will be sorely missed...

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Acritiqua on Tue 23 May - 1:53

If Hux is killed out of the three of them that would be amusing in that Hux is the one who didn't screw up. Phasma hid FN-2187's non-conformist tendencies from the others, and lowered Starkiller's shields and let the Resistance in. Kylo let FN-2187 go in the beginning; lost the droid to the Resistance because he got distracted by Rey; failed to get the map from Rey because of his feelings for her; lost to Rey and failed to capture her. (But he did kill Dad!) Hux? He did everything just about perfectly. Snoke probably doesn't know of Phasma's offenses and he can't kill Kylo... so...
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by MeadowofAshes on Fri 26 May - 5:20

Okay, so combining a lot of the rumors and storytelling points we've all discussed in various threads, I came up with a rudimentary plot structure for the Force Plot I think is plausible. Here we go:

1st ⅓:
Snoke kills Hux for failure illustrating Han's point about Snoke eventually crushing Ben
Mask smash, Ren hightails it to Ahch-To for FJT artifact
Rey sees Luke’s and Ben’s versions of his fall - visions of Ben + Luke storytelling

  • Easiest sympathic back story, IMO, is combination of the Organa-Solos fighting over Ben’s apparent “dark” powers + sad boy sent away to Luke + betrayed at Uncle Luke’s Bible Camp by acolytes after Grandpappy Vader reveal.

Luke says Jedi must end, Ben must be killed (to get rid of Force connection?)
 
2nd ⅓:
Dangerous dreamboat arrives.
-Kylo and Rey separated from Luke.
-Over the cliff, Kylo pulls her to safety = beginning of trust building.
First Jedi Temple dungeon crawl
-Mutual sexual tension leading to scar touch
-Increase humor and likability with Kylo
-Talk about their pasts, Ben's guilt over everything he's done
-Trust building between the pair, they reach goal in FJT together.
(Only problem here is WTF is Luke doing during Naughty Nephew’s IKEA dungeon crawl? Playing dejarik with Chewie and Artoo? So maybe he's on the dungeon crawl as the c***blocker instead of Threepio)
 
3rd ⅓:
Everyone to Resistance.
Snoke obliterates Leia’s ship.
Rey and Kylo go off on their own to get Snoke.
Shock “I am Your Father!” Reylo kiss as FO is boarding their ship
Kylo to Rey, “Do you trust me?”
Kylo restrains Rey (in a cage?) and presents her to FO

Last scene is “Rey emotional wringer” in cage and angsty Kylo “depends on what you call living” with Snoke and FO, so the end is ambiguous. Did he betray her or is it all part of the plan?
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 26 May - 5:41

MeadowofAshes wrote:Okay, so combining a lot of the rumors and storytelling points we've all discussed in various threads, I came up with a rudimentary plot structure for the Force Plot I think is plausible. Here we go:

1st ⅓:
Snoke kills Hux for failure illustrating Han's point about Snoke eventually crushing Ben
Mask smash, Ren hightails it to Ahch-To for FJT artifact
Rey sees Luke’s and Ben’s versions of his fall - visions of Ben + Luke storytelling

  • Easiest sympathic back story, IMO, is combination of the Organa-Solos fighting over Ben’s apparent “dark” powers + sad boy sent away to Luke + betrayed at Uncle Luke’s Bible Camp by acolytes after Grandpappy Vader reveal.

Luke says Jedi must end, Ben must be killed (to get rid of Force connection?)
 
2nd ⅓:
Dangerous dreamboat arrives.
-Kylo and Rey separated from Luke.
-Over the cliff, Kylo pulls her to safety = beginning of trust building.
First Jedi Temple dungeon crawl
-Mutual sexual tension leading to scar touch
-Increase humor and likability with Kylo
-Talk about their pasts, Ben's guilt over everything he's done
-Trust building between the pair, they reach goal in FJT together.
(Only problem here is WTF is Luke doing during Naughty Nephew’s IKEA dungeon crawl? Playing dejarik with Chewie and Artoo? So maybe he's on the dungeon crawl as the c***blocker instead of Threepio)
 
3rd ⅓:
Everyone to Resistance.
Snoke obliterates Leia’s ship.
Rey and Kylo go off on their own to get Snoke.
Shock “I am Your Father!” Reylo kiss as FO is boarding their ship
Kylo to Rey, “Do you trust me?”
Kylo restrains Rey (in a cage?) and presents her to FO

Last scene is “Rey emotional wringer” in cage and angsty Kylo “depends on what you call living” with Snoke and FO, so the end is ambiguous. Did he betray her or is it all part of the plan?
@MeadowofAshes

On a high level, that's pretty close to what I was thinking. The only major missing thing I see is that I strongly suspect that a strike force from the FO is going to show up on Ahch-To (having tracked Kylo there, but taking a few days/weeks to get there). This is where the Falcon/TIE chase comes in, and I suspect that it will force Kylo to side with Luke and Rey, if for no other obvious reason (at this point) than to save his own life.

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Hoping Rey is "riding solo" for the ST...
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