The Last Jedi: General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Lily Snape on 5/26/2017, 12:33 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:Okay, so combining a lot of the rumors and storytelling points we've all discussed in various threads, I came up with a rudimentary plot structure for the Force Plot I think is plausible. Here we go:

1st ⅓:
Snoke kills Hux for failure illustrating Han's point about Snoke eventually crushing Ben
Mask smash, Ren hightails it to Ahch-To for FJT artifact
Rey sees Luke’s and Ben’s versions of his fall - visions of Ben + Luke storytelling

  • Easiest sympathic back story, IMO, is combination of the Organa-Solos fighting over Ben’s apparent “dark” powers + sad boy sent away to Luke + betrayed at Uncle Luke’s Bible Camp by acolytes after Grandpappy Vader reveal.

Luke says Jedi must end, Ben must be killed (to get rid of Force connection?)
 
2nd ⅓:
Dangerous dreamboat arrives.
-Kylo and Rey separated from Luke.
-Over the cliff, Kylo pulls her to safety = beginning of trust building.
First Jedi Temple dungeon crawl
-Mutual sexual tension leading to scar touch
-Increase humor and likability with Kylo
-Talk about their pasts, Ben's guilt over everything he's done
-Trust building between the pair, they reach goal in FJT together.
(Only problem here is WTF is Luke doing during Naughty Nephew’s IKEA dungeon crawl? Playing dejarik with Chewie and Artoo? So maybe he's on the dungeon crawl as the c***blocker instead of Threepio)
 
3rd ⅓:
Everyone to Resistance.
Snoke obliterates Leia’s ship.
Rey and Kylo go off on their own to get Snoke.
Shock “I am Your Father!” Reylo kiss as FO is boarding their ship
Kylo to Rey, “Do you trust me?”
Kylo restrains Rey (in a cage?) and presents her to FO

Last scene is “Rey emotional wringer” in cage and angsty Kylo “depends on what you call living” with Snoke and FO, so the end is ambiguous. Did he betray her or is it all part of the plan?
@MeadowofAshes

OK, Harry Potter geek here (obviously), and the one down side to the "Did he or didn't he betray her?" thing is that so much of the GA already thinks Kylo is evil. I don't think that (if Reylo is going to happen, which I think it is) they can have much of the audience hating this character for another year and a half. People seem to be pretty simple-minded about this complex character, so you could wind up with much of the GA hating him from Dec. 2015 to May 2019-- and then it would be a hard sell that she falls in love with him in IX. We all debated after The Half-Blood Prince whether or not to trust Snape (I was in the "Trust Snape" camp), but Snape wasn't being set up as the potential love interest of a beloved protagonist. Other than that little quibble, this is awesome. I do think one of them will end the movie as a captive as a cliffhanger, and I do think Kylo will turn to the Light definitively at the end after building a friendship/allegiance/flirtation with Rey. I'm not sure whether I think it's more likely for him to be the captive (too much like Han being rescued by Leia?) or her (Rey gets captured by the FO...again.)

Thank you for putting this all together-- it's amazing. Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by nemapasara on 5/26/2017, 11:07 am

I keep thinking about the compass and how my gut is telling me that it's going to act as the cheknov's gun; it'l be introduced as something seemingly insignificant but is revealed to be really important later on. Maybe I'm just biased because it goes well will my theory that Luke killed Rey's parents. If they had this (possibly Jedi) artifact in their possession but were Empire sympathizers or even dark siders, than it might make Luke feel justified in killing them to obtain it. Then he sees little Rey, the guilt overwhelms him and he drops her off on the inconsequential Jakku. It could explain why Maz says that the person she's waiting for (family) won't come back but that there's someone (Luke) who could. And isn't there hints that Luke sometimes took off on his own without Ben? So the movie would start off with Luke rejecting the lightsaber (his legacy) and Rey possibly taking hers back by the end? I'm just spitballing here and I doubt any of this is right but it's a nice distraction from the drama.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on 5/26/2017, 11:52 am

@nemapasara wrote:I keep thinking about the compass and how my gut is telling me that it's going to act as the cheknov's gun; it'l be introduced as something seemingly insignificant but is revealed to be really important later on. Maybe I'm just biased because it goes well will my theory that Luke killed Rey's parents. If they had this (possibly Jedi) artifact in their possession but were Empire sympathizers or even dark siders, than it might make Luke feel justified in killing them to obtain it. Then he sees little Rey, the guilt overwhelms him and he drops her off on the inconsequential Jakku. It could explain why Maz says that the person she's waiting for (family) won't come back but that there's someone (Luke) who could. And isn't there hints that Luke sometimes took off on his own without Ben? So the movie would start off with Luke rejecting the lightsaber (his legacy) and Rey possibly taking hers back by the end? I'm just spitballing here and I doubt any of this is right but it's a nice distraction from the drama.
@nemapasara

There seem to be pretty strong hints that Luke wasn't physically there for the actual temple destruction, so I think it's pretty plausible that he went off on his own at times.

From a dramatic standpoint, I think it would be interesting if Luke killed Rey's parents. But from the POV of a story arc that spans 3 movies, that sort of revelation would likely turn Luke into Rey's antagonist, when it seems like the more natural story arc would be for Snoke to be Rey's big bad, and that she'd end up helping Kylo take Snoke down at the end of IX. I'm not sure how that would work if Luke is Rey's antagonist.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by AppleCrumble122 on 5/26/2017, 12:06 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@nemapasara wrote:I keep thinking about the compass and how my gut is telling me that it's going to act as the cheknov's gun; it'l be introduced as something seemingly insignificant but is revealed to be really important later on. Maybe I'm just biased because it goes well will my theory that Luke killed Rey's parents. If they had this (possibly Jedi) artifact in their possession but were Empire sympathizers or even dark siders, than it might make Luke feel justified in killing them to obtain it. Then he sees little Rey, the guilt overwhelms him and he drops her off on the inconsequential Jakku. It could explain why Maz says that the person she's waiting for (family) won't come back but that there's someone (Luke) who could. And isn't there hints that Luke sometimes took off on his own without Ben? So the movie would start off with Luke rejecting the lightsaber (his legacy) and Rey possibly taking hers back by the end? I'm just spitballing here and I doubt any of this is right but it's a nice distraction from the drama.
@nemapasara

There seem to be pretty strong hints that Luke wasn't physically there for the actual temple destruction, so I think it's pretty plausible that he went off on his own at times.

From a dramatic standpoint, I think it would be interesting if Luke killed Rey's parents. But from the POV of a story arc that spans 3 movies, that sort of revelation would likely turn Luke into Rey's antagonist, when it seems like the more natural story arc would be for Snoke to be Rey's big bad, and that she'd end up helping Kylo take Snoke down at the end of IX. I'm not sure how that would work if Luke is Rey's antagonist.
@ISeeAnIsland

Unless Snoke is Luke! ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by nemapasara on 5/26/2017, 12:07 pm

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@nemapasara wrote:I keep thinking about the compass and how my gut is telling me that it's going to act as the cheknov's gun; it'l be introduced as something seemingly insignificant but is revealed to be really important later on. Maybe I'm just biased because it goes well will my theory that Luke killed Rey's parents. If they had this (possibly Jedi) artifact in their possession but were Empire sympathizers or even dark siders, than it might make Luke feel justified in killing them to obtain it. Then he sees little Rey, the guilt overwhelms him and he drops her off on the inconsequential Jakku. It could explain why Maz says that the person she's waiting for (family) won't come back but that there's someone (Luke) who could. And isn't there hints that Luke sometimes took off on his own without Ben? So the movie would start off with Luke rejecting the lightsaber (his legacy) and Rey possibly taking hers back by the end? I'm just spitballing here and I doubt any of this is right but it's a nice distraction from the drama.
@nemapasara

There seem to be pretty strong hints that Luke wasn't physically there for the actual temple destruction, so I think it's pretty plausible that he went off on his own at times.

From a dramatic standpoint, I think it would be interesting if Luke killed Rey's parents. But from the POV of a story arc that spans 3 movies, that sort of revelation would likely turn Luke into Rey's antagonist, when it seems like the more natural story arc would be for Snoke to be Rey's big bad, and that she'd end up helping Kylo take Snoke down at the end of IX. I'm not sure how that would work if Luke is Rey's antagonist.
@ISeeAnIsland

In my mind, I don't consider it resulting in Luke becoming her antagonist but that it would create a moral dilemma and it'd make Rey susceptible to Snoke's/DS's influence. It'd also be a way to connect her to the story other than being the pinata hanging between Luke and Kylo. Could make her sympathize with Kylo but not agree with his way either. Lots of different story possibilities that could explore the dichotomy of doing what is right vs. doing what is easy and that the good guys kill, too. They might be killing bad people but those bad people have wives, husbands, children, parents, silbings, etc.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on 5/26/2017, 12:15 pm

@nemapasara wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@nemapasara wrote:I keep thinking about the compass and how my gut is telling me that it's going to act as the cheknov's gun; it'l be introduced as something seemingly insignificant but is revealed to be really important later on. Maybe I'm just biased because it goes well will my theory that Luke killed Rey's parents. If they had this (possibly Jedi) artifact in their possession but were Empire sympathizers or even dark siders, than it might make Luke feel justified in killing them to obtain it. Then he sees little Rey, the guilt overwhelms him and he drops her off on the inconsequential Jakku. It could explain why Maz says that the person she's waiting for (family) won't come back but that there's someone (Luke) who could. And isn't there hints that Luke sometimes took off on his own without Ben? So the movie would start off with Luke rejecting the lightsaber (his legacy) and Rey possibly taking hers back by the end? I'm just spitballing here and I doubt any of this is right but it's a nice distraction from the drama.
@nemapasara

There seem to be pretty strong hints that Luke wasn't physically there for the actual temple destruction, so I think it's pretty plausible that he went off on his own at times.

From a dramatic standpoint, I think it would be interesting if Luke killed Rey's parents. But from the POV of a story arc that spans 3 movies, that sort of revelation would likely turn Luke into Rey's antagonist, when it seems like the more natural story arc would be for Snoke to be Rey's big bad, and that she'd end up helping Kylo take Snoke down at the end of IX. I'm not sure how that would work if Luke is Rey's antagonist.
@ISeeAnIsland

In my mind, I don't consider it resulting in Luke becoming her antagonist but that it would create a moral dilemma and it'd make Rey susceptible to Snoke's/DS's influence. It'd also be a way to connect her to the story other than being the pinata hanging between Luke and Kylo. Could make her sympathize with Kylo but not agree with his way either. Lots of different story possibilities that could explore the dichotomy of doing what is right vs. doing what is easy and that the good guys kill, too. They might be killing bad people but those bad people have wives, husbands, children, parents, silbings, etc.
@nemapasara

Those are all excellent points. And that reminds me of something that Rian said in the main VF piece. He said that when he sat down to write TLJ, his starting question was "What is the biggest challenge that each of these characters could face?" With Rey, it's obviously going to be something related to her parents.

Luke? Perhaps coming to terms with whatever caused Ben's fall (because I'd bet money that something Luke did inadvertently played a big role).
Kylo? Dealing with the pain from killing his father and perhaps the realization that his father was right and that Snoke was/is using him.

etc, etc
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Birdwoman on 5/26/2017, 12:19 pm

Something I was thinking about this morning and maybe it has been discussed already.  So, taking the new rumor about Luke and Rey going for Kylo and Snoke.  Then Rey going off with Snoke, leaving Kylo with the others on a ship that is crashing.  I wonder, if in that moment Kylo sees that Snoke is using him because he leaves him to die with the other resistance fighters.  This, will be the moment that Kylo openly begins his redemption because he will try and go save Rey from the same fate.  Kind of like his dad tried to save him....except I hope he doesn't die at the end.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Acritiqua on 5/26/2017, 1:11 pm

Good point! At the end of TFA Kylo would have died on Starkiller, but Snoke sent help. So it would be interesting if Kylo's life is in danger again at the end of TLJ and Snoke leaves him to die.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Rimfaxe96 on 5/26/2017, 1:48 pm

I'm just going to wait for new trustworthy spoilers from MSW the movie at this point. If they're really going to ignore romance for now, or keep it to subtleties and innuendo, VIII might be a lot different compared to what everyone has in mind. Confus

Alas, Ren shouldn't break away from the beliefs he sacrificed his father for that easily. I think it'll have more to do with the reason for his turn than with Rey, perhaps he'll learn something about whatever made him turn that'll turn his perspective upside down - and then he might team up with Rey. It's still a long way until any trust building can happen IMO.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Kyla Ren on 5/26/2017, 4:29 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:Okay, so combining a lot of the rumors and storytelling points we've all discussed in various threads, I came up with a rudimentary plot structure for the Force Plot I think is plausible. Here we go:

1st ⅓:
Snoke kills Hux for failure illustrating Han's point about Snoke eventually crushing Ben
Mask smash, Ren hightails it to Ahch-To for FJT artifact
Rey sees Luke’s and Ben’s versions of his fall - visions of Ben + Luke storytelling

  • Easiest sympathic back story, IMO, is combination of the Organa-Solos fighting over Ben’s apparent “dark” powers + sad boy sent away to Luke + betrayed at Uncle Luke’s Bible Camp by acolytes after Grandpappy Vader reveal.

Luke says Jedi must end, Ben must be killed (to get rid of Force connection?)
 
2nd ⅓:
Dangerous dreamboat arrives.
-Kylo and Rey separated from Luke.
-Over the cliff, Kylo pulls her to safety = beginning of trust building.
First Jedi Temple dungeon crawl
-Mutual sexual tension leading to scar touch
-Increase humor and likability with Kylo
-Talk about their pasts, Ben's guilt over everything he's done
-Trust building between the pair, they reach goal in FJT together.
(Only problem here is WTF is Luke doing during Naughty Nephew’s IKEA dungeon crawl? Playing dejarik with Chewie and Artoo? So maybe he's on the dungeon crawl as the c***blocker instead of Threepio)
 
3rd ⅓:
Everyone to Resistance.
Snoke obliterates Leia’s ship.
Rey and Kylo go off on their own to get Snoke.
Shock “I am Your Father!” Reylo kiss as FO is boarding their ship
Kylo to Rey, “Do you trust me?”
Kylo restrains Rey (in a cage?) and presents her to FO

Last scene is “Rey emotional wringer” in cage and angsty Kylo “depends on what you call living” with Snoke and FO, so the end is ambiguous. Did he betray her or is it all part of the plan?
@MeadowofAshes

If this were the plot I would be very satisfied. Smile  Especially if we get a Reylo kiss. Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ReyofLightSide on 5/28/2017, 12:49 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:Okay, so combining a lot of the rumors and storytelling points we've all discussed in various threads, I came up with a rudimentary plot structure for the Force Plot I think is plausible. Here we go:

1st ⅓:
Snoke kills Hux for failure illustrating Han's point about Snoke eventually crushing Ben
Mask smash, Ren hightails it to Ahch-To for FJT artifact
Rey sees Luke’s and Ben’s versions of his fall - visions of Ben + Luke storytelling

  • Easiest sympathic back story, IMO, is combination of the Organa-Solos fighting over Ben’s apparent “dark” powers + sad boy sent away to Luke + betrayed at Uncle Luke’s Bible Camp by acolytes after Grandpappy Vader reveal.

Luke says Jedi must end, Ben must be killed (to get rid of Force connection?)
 
2nd ⅓:
Dangerous dreamboat arrives.
-Kylo and Rey separated from Luke.
-Over the cliff, Kylo pulls her to safety = beginning of trust building.
First Jedi Temple dungeon crawl
-Mutual sexual tension leading to scar touch
-Increase humor and likability with Kylo
-Talk about their pasts, Ben's guilt over everything he's done
-Trust building between the pair, they reach goal in FJT together.
(Only problem here is WTF is Luke doing during Naughty Nephew’s IKEA dungeon crawl? Playing dejarik with Chewie and Artoo? So maybe he's on the dungeon crawl as the c***blocker instead of Threepio)
 
3rd ⅓:
Everyone to Resistance.
Snoke obliterates Leia’s ship.
Rey and Kylo go off on their own to get Snoke.
Shock “I am Your Father!” Reylo kiss as FO is boarding their ship
Kylo to Rey, “Do you trust me?”
Kylo restrains Rey (in a cage?) and presents her to FO

Last scene is “Rey emotional wringer” in cage and angsty Kylo “depends on what you call living” with Snoke and FO, so the end is ambiguous. Did he betray her or is it all part of the plan?
@MeadowofAshes

I would watch the hell out of that movie!
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Rimfaxe96 on 5/29/2017, 5:40 pm

Kylo's scar distracted me so much I almost forgot about the other scar we hopefully might get a look at.

Just look at this georgous fanart:



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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on 5/29/2017, 5:49 pm

Phew! I have thought all along that one of the barriers to Kylo ever getting Rey to at least have a civil conversation with him, let alone anything else is what he did to Finn, her best friend and de facto brother. It's always weird how people talk up what happened with Han and it's like, yeah what about Finn who's still alive and clearly the the closest she has to a family member? I always thought that was going to be part of what she gets tested on in the next movie.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by DarthRen on 5/29/2017, 7:47 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:Okay, so combining a lot of the rumors and storytelling points we've all discussed in various threads, I came up with a rudimentary plot structure for the Force Plot I think is plausible. Here we go:

1st ⅓:
Snoke kills Hux for failure illustrating Han's point about Snoke eventually crushing Ben
Mask smash, Ren hightails it to Ahch-To for FJT artifact
Rey sees Luke’s and Ben’s versions of his fall - visions of Ben + Luke storytelling

  • Easiest sympathic back story, IMO, is combination of the Organa-Solos fighting over Ben’s apparent “dark” powers + sad boy sent away to Luke + betrayed at Uncle Luke’s Bible Camp by acolytes after Grandpappy Vader reveal.

Luke says Jedi must end, Ben must be killed (to get rid of Force connection?)
 
2nd ⅓:
Dangerous dreamboat arrives.
-Kylo and Rey separated from Luke.
-Over the cliff, Kylo pulls her to safety = beginning of trust building.
First Jedi Temple dungeon crawl
-Mutual sexual tension leading to scar touch
-Increase humor and likability with Kylo
-Talk about their pasts, Ben's guilt over everything he's done
-Trust building between the pair, they reach goal in FJT together.
(Only problem here is WTF is Luke doing during Naughty Nephew’s IKEA dungeon crawl? Playing dejarik with Chewie and Artoo? So maybe he's on the dungeon crawl as the c***blocker instead of Threepio)
 
3rd ⅓:
Everyone to Resistance.
Snoke obliterates Leia’s ship.
Rey and Kylo go off on their own to get Snoke.
Shock “I am Your Father!” Reylo kiss as FO is boarding their ship
Kylo to Rey, “Do you trust me?”
Kylo restrains Rey (in a cage?) and presents her to FO

Last scene is “Rey emotional wringer” in cage and angsty Kylo “depends on what you call living” with Snoke and FO, so the end is ambiguous. Did he betray her or is it all part of the plan?
@MeadowofAshes

Which rumours exactly suggest these plot points? I must've missed them or don't remember them.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on 5/31/2017, 9:56 pm

This might be a palate cleanser after the past week's worth of drama and craziness. A reminder of a simpler time, The Mary Sue interviews Gloria Katz about her work on the script for the first movie with a nice shout-out to Leigh Brackett. Note the mention that despite what fanboys would believe, Brackett invented the entire space opera genre (just like how Mary Shelley invented horror)

Interview: Screenwriter Gloria Katz on Her Secret Star Wars Script Polish Plus more about women in film and being a nerd.

TMS: It seems the best kind of banter in the script—the rapid fire, witty interchanges—came from you and Willard rather than George.

Katz: We just tried to help with the characterization, to add as much humor as possible (they wrote about 30 percent of the film’s dialogue). We didn’t want to take the credit away from him—he had been working on Star Wars for a very long time. It was his vision. We did go visit the set once (in London) and George was very depressed. The whole production was very wrought with drama. Nobody had ever done any of this stuff before, the special effects weren’t working, the English crew were very unsympathetic towards George. He wasn’t getting what he wanted on screen—the technology wasn’t there for him. We kept telling him “it’s going to be wonderful George!” (laughs) no matter what it looked like, to try and cheer him up.

TMS: Did you meet Carrie Fisher on set?

Katz: Just randomly—she was very young and very funny. I was thinking about the relationship between American Graffiti and Princess Leia. Graffiti originally started out with the Laurie Henderson character as the perfect blonde high school princess. And that thought radically changed in the casting of (brunette) Cindy Williams. The casting director Fred Roos was a very big influence on that. Once you create Laurie like Cindy, then that leaves you to rethink. For Star Wars, George had originally seen (blonde actress) Yvette Mimieux in her heydey as Princess Leia.

When we talked to him about the character, we said Leia should be a more ‘Hawksian woman,’ with all the traits that that woman had: she can take command; she doesn’t take any s***, but at the same time she’s vulnerable and to write her as really focused, instead of just a beautiful woman that schlepped along to be saved. For her to be the one that initiated the action. And because Carrie Fisher was so young, the contrast between this young girl and her goals became more poignant.

TMS: So this idea of the ‘Hawksian woman’ came from the films of the director Howard Hawks?

Katz: Yes—a great example of the women that played them is Barbara Stanwyck and Lauren Bacall. To Willard and I, they were such great characters, we thought it would be really neat to repeat them in a space opera where you wouldn’t expect it. Also, George Lucas was inspired by the work of writer Leigh Bracket. She established the space opera genre, and she was one of the writers on The Big Sleep. So George hired her as a screenwriter on The Empire Strikes Back.

TMS: I love the kick-a** attitude you gave Leia in A New Hope—“I don’t know who you are, or where you came from, but from now on you do as I tell you.” What’s your favorite line in the movie?

Katz: ”Let the wookiee win.” (laughs)

TMS: How do you think Star Wars: A New Hope has aged 40 years on?

Katz: George didn’t have the technology we have today, but I think it’s the best of the Star Wars films, because it’s closer to his heart. There’s a lot of humor in it, and also a lot of innocence. It was everything that George liked and thought was wonderful; not everything of a “it’s going to make a billion dollars” kind of sensibility. It’s really his innocence and his love for the genre. As things get more famous, more commercial, that gets dissipated. I think what happened on Star Wars episodes I, II & III is when George just had his own power base, it’s sometimes not a good idea. It’s better to have a group of people you really trust and have feedback.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on 6/2/2017, 8:18 am



Ok, so Thor Skywalker suggests that going forward, "Gray Jedi," aren't going to be a thing, but that the Jedi will have to change and perhaps be more permissive, because characters that can form attachments and are motivated by wants are more interesting and easier to write stories about.
I love the idea that Uncle Luke was training Ben to be a strict monk-like Jedi, but that Ben, who perhaps  wasn't getting the affection and attention that he wanted from his family, was like "Screw this no attachments thing," and turned to the dark side. It would be pretty cruel for a youth who craves love to be sent off to "Bible camp" and told that relationships are forbidden. I think Luke has realized that this old school way is not appropriate anymore, and that the Jedi (as they are) "must end."
So yes, Rey will become a Jedi, but not a celibate monk Jedi, because Jedi are central to Star Wars, but audiences don't want character after character to be holy untouchables who are not open to romances or whose romances lead to terror and destruction (Anakin).
It's interesting though that Snoke is also trying to get Kylo to rid himself of attachments, like his father, and we know that Kylo's realized that patricide makes you feel like s***, and will ultimately be what starts to drive him from Snoke. (Uncle Luke says no love, Snoke says no love, WTF, life sucks.)
Of course I hope this all points to Rey/Ben Solo Jr. being the protagonist of their own trilogy some day, lol.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Rimfaxe96 on 6/4/2017, 11:36 am

By the way, when do you think we might get another trailer? We're less than 200 days away from VIII after all. Very Happy
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Lucina on 6/4/2017, 11:44 am

Well, the TFA trailer was released in October. I think the TLJ trailer will also be released around that time.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by IoJovi on 6/4/2017, 11:52 am

I saw something on Tumblr about getting on one June 29th, but it didn't give a source or any other proof backing it up. One can hope though...
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Guest on 6/4/2017, 3:53 pm

There is a chance of something from D23, I think. That's next month, but I can't see much more new material being released yet. Maybe there will be a panel and some BTS stuff if we're lucky. They won't want to give too much away until the big marketing push later in the year.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by panki on 6/4/2017, 4:17 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

Ok, so Thor Skywalker suggests that going forward, "Gray Jedi," aren't going to be a thing, but that the Jedi will have to change and perhaps be more permissive, because characters that can form attachments and are motivated by wants are more interesting and easier to write stories about.
I love the idea that Uncle Luke was training Ben to be a strict monk-like Jedi, but that Ben, who perhaps  wasn't getting the affection and attention that he wanted from his family, was like "Screw this no attachments thing," and turned to the dark side. It would be pretty cruel for a youth who craves love to be sent off to "Bible camp" and told that relationships are forbidden. I think Luke has realized that this old school way is not appropriate anymore, and that the Jedi (as they are) "must end."
So yes, Rey will become a Jedi, but not a celibate monk Jedi, because Jedi are central to Star Wars, but audiences don't want character after character to be holy untouchables who are not open to romances or whose romances lead to terror and destruction (Anakin).
It's interesting though that Snoke is also trying to get Kylo to rid himself of attachments, like his father, and we know that Kylo's realized that patricide makes you feel like s***, and will ultimately be what starts to drive him from Snoke. (Uncle Luke says no love, Snoke says no love, WTF, life sucks.)
Of course I hope this all points to Rey/Ben Solo Jr. being the protagonist of their own trilogy some day, lol.
@Cowgirlsamurai

The problem with the jedi never was about forming attachments....the problem was that they formed a rigid order and followed the will of the republic and not the will of the force.  If the rule of non-attachment was so terrible, why would the jedi order last 1000 years without an issue? The problem only arose when Anakin was brought into the order at a later age than regular padawans and had formed attachments with Padme and his mother. A lot of Eastern religions still practice non-attachment as part of their belief system and have been doing so for centuries- so a spiritual order can survive very well without its members needing to go out and procreate (I have monk and ascetic friends in RL and I've never seen them regret their choice or miss having a family life).

That being said, I agree with what you're saying from a story telling perspective where it would be terribly dull if every protagonist became a loveless monk and I don't think the jedi order will return in its old form....I think it might return in a form similar to the Guardians of the Whills and the Disciples of the Whills within the same order where one group could be ascetic teachers who don't form attachments, while the other could be warriors who marry and form attachments....or maybe Rey could spend a few years helping Luke re-establish the jedi order, and then leave it to marry Kylo and lead a normal life.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on 6/4/2017, 7:42 pm

@panki 

Ahh, sorry. I didn't mean that attachments=the need to procreate. Just the desire to be close to another/others. I think that few make it through life without having romantic/sexual feelings for anyone, hence the many cases of repressed priests who have secretly abused children. However, in Star Wars, family and "continuing the Skywalker Saga," are important so that's why I mentioned it.
Anyway, like Anakin, Kylo's seems like a pretty passionate character, so it'd be hard to imagine him making it through rigid Jedi training ^^
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Guest on 6/4/2017, 8:12 pm

This is good about the Jedi and attachment. I follow the guy who wrote this on Twitter, and while I don't always agree with him and he doesn't personally want Reylo to happen, we've had some interesting debates and I do appreciate a respectful, different point of view. http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2017/04/selfish-love-why-the-jedi-were-right-about-attachment/

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by panki on 6/4/2017, 11:08 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@panki 

Ahh, sorry. I didn't mean that attachments=the need to procreate. Just the desire to be close to another/others. I think that few make it through life without having romantic/sexual feelings for anyone, hence the many cases of repressed priests who have secretly abused children. However, in Star Wars, family and "continuing the Skywalker Saga," are important so that's why I mentioned it.
Anyway, like Anakin, Kylo's seems like a pretty passionate character, so it'd be hard to imagine him making it through rigid Jedi training ^^
@Cowgirlsamurai

I didn't intend to include just the need to procreate as the drive being repressed, but all forms of companionship and family life as well.....being a person who is very interested in spirituality, let me give the example of a very close friend of mine....he wanted to be an ascetic from a very young age (3 years old) and spent his time in the company of holy people....his family were upset by this and wanted him to take up a more mainstream profession like engineering and to get married....however, he was so engrossed in his practices and meditation that he just had no bandwidth left for being attracted to someone, having a romance etc. And contrary to how it might appear, it isn't a lonely life as one is normally surrounded by other adherents and there is a strong sense of family, bonds and companionship among them....so I do understand the way the traditional jedi functioned and personally see no problem in it as I know from my own practical experience that following a strongly spiritual path and having a love life don't go hand in hand (if you intend to take either seriously). As for priests abusing children...if repression was the only reason for people turning abusive, why do we see child predators even in normal walks of life, some even married with families?


But all the above is something in the real world.... as @SoloSideCousin once wisely pointed out, a regular young viewer would find it hard to relate to heroes who eventually become monks...I have no issue with them changing the rules to allow force users to have romance.....my issue is if attachments are blamed for the fall of the jedi order because that really wasn't the case, and it would be a bad message to give especially when many people follow an ascetic lifestyle in the real world without feeling repressed and harming others...and even in the SW universe the jedi order survived for a 1000 years without members going crazy and turning evil.

But from a story telling perspective, I do agree that they have to either re-define the jedi order structure or maybe start a whole new order inspired by other force user groups where romantic relationships were permitted...and this can be done organically without laying the blame on any group's life choices.

As for Anakin, I feel he was not just passionate- he was selfish as hell. If you watch TCW's mortis arc, the Father even calls him selfish at one point of time. He could have left the jedi order at any point of time and openly acknowledged his marriage. The jedi never stopped their members from leaving the order and getting married...but Anakin wanted power and wasn't ready to let it go, even for a quiet happy life with Padme. I would honestly be happy to see the end of the Skywalker name (because all it causes it trouble in the galaxy) and for Rey and Ben Solo to marry and continue as Solos instead to keep Han's name alive.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Darth_Awakened on 6/5/2017, 4:43 am

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:This is good about the Jedi and attachment. I follow the guy who wrote this on Twitter, and while I don't always agree with him and he doesn't personally want Reylo to happen, we've had some interesting debates and I do appreciate a respectful, different point of view. http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2017/04/selfish-love-why-the-jedi-were-right-about-attachment/
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I definitely agree with his viewpoint on the attachment. (i.e. attachement in the sense of possessiveness ), however in his further speculation on Rey's possible challanges he falls in a very common trap of "what to do with Kylo Ren in the story other than be a pure antagonist", which IMO isn't happening (see: Almost every AD interview so far: "internal wounds", "hunamity"; the patricide wasn't what it cracked up tp be" etc. )
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