The Last Jedi: General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Persephone on 7/16/2017, 2:30 pm

@IoJovi wrote:I haven't forgotten that quote from Adam about "It depends on what your definition of living is. I'm not saying he'll end up frozen in carbonite, but I imagine he'll end up much like his father at the end of RotJ - incapacitated somehow, most likely by the hand of Snoke. Depending on what went down between him and Rey on Ach-To, she might sense his distress while on Crait, and finally make the decision to go after him, both for Ben and the fate of the galaxy.

Someone today mentioned Finn and Rose budding relationship being the catalyst for Rey to examine her own relationship with Ben, and possibly go after him, particularly if he's in distress. I couldn't agree more with this. I'm sure Rey in TFA thought there might possibly be something more with Finn at one point and when she sees he's moved on, she'll know things on her end have changed too.

I always liked Finn's character and it's a nice way to wrap things up so it doesn't look like he's completely sidelined by Rey for the tall, dark haired "villain."
@IoJovi

Nicely said.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by reylo1992 on 7/16/2017, 2:34 pm

@reylo1992

I never thought about it this way :0 It makes complete sense! Poor Ben Sad Remember when Adam was asked if Kylo Ren/Ben would survive Ep 8 and Adam responded: "If that's what you call living." It fits together. Ep 9 would then be Prince Rey saving Princess Ben from figurative and literal possesion/curse/coma
The love triangle is not between Finn, Kylo and Rey - it's between Snoke, Kylo and Rey.[/quote]
@Persephone

Completely! Since Adam said that I have always thought that Ben would be the one to end up TLJ in a weird state. I have long thought that Rey could turn to the DS but I must say that I find the scenario of Prince Rey saving Princess Ben is more realistic with her character because Rey ain't meant to become passive. And totally agree about the love triangle even if it sounds so weird having Snoke as some kind of abusive and possessive lover but it reminds in some way of that French film Belphegor. Belphegor is a momie who takes possession of the body and soul of a young woman named Lisa...

and obviously he is possessive with her and very jealous of her love interest. During a bed scene, Belphegor briefly comes out from Lisa's body, turns around them and then takes possession of her in order to have her strangling her lover.

And now that that I am thinking about this, there's something else that I realize. We know that Snoke's theme is briefly heard before Ben kills his father, which makes me assume that Snoke sort of took possession of him at this moment. Could it be that this also happened during the cliff moment? Kylo could have killed Rey by pushing her and yet didn't do it. Instead, a Force moment followed during which they obviously connected during a brief moment. Then, Rey - who looked so peaceful -suddently becomes totally aggressive, sort of taping into the DS. I have always found strange that she became so aggressive after being so relaxed in just a wink of blink. Could it be that her anger toward Kylo wasn't her own but actually...Snoke's???

When you think about it, Kylo sort of bretayed Snoke four times (You promised me that you wouldn't fail me!)
1. When he chose to take the girl instead of the droide, which was later  revealed by Hux
2. When he expressed compassion toward the girl instead of searching for the map, which was revealed by the novel
3. When he considered leaving the FO during his confrontation with Han, which was revealed by J.J.Abrams himself
4. When he made the girl the teaching proposal
If Snoke is kind of possessive lover, he must have felt sort of cheated more than once in a few hours

So could it be that Snoke couldn't bring Kylo to kill Rey during the cliff - like he did for Han because of the Force moment - but briefly could take possession of Rey - because something clearly passes from him to her - and use her to punish Kylo? Like some of us pointed out, Rey expresses unnecessary cruelty toward him as if she took pleasure in making him suffer. She even scares him to make him look ugly as it would solve the problem by making him less appealing to her. And then she hears a voice telling him to kill him but then quickly comes to her senses before stricking. I don't know whether it makes sense or not but if Snoke sort of used Rey to express his rage toward Kylo,it could also explain why Rey became suddently so powerful and copied Kylo's fighting style so well...


Last edited by reylo1992 on 7/16/2017, 2:49 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Moonlight13 on 7/16/2017, 2:41 pm

@reylo1992 wrote:
And now that that I am thinking about this, there's something else that I realize. We know that Snoke's theme is briefly heard before Ben kills his father, which makes me assume that Snoke sort of took possession of him at this moment. Could it be that this also happened during the cliff moment? Kylo could have killed Rey by pushing her and yet didn't do it. Instead, a Force moment followed during which they obviously connected during a brief moment. Then, Rey - who looked so peaceful -suddently becomes totally aggressive, sort of taping into the DS. I have always found strange that she became so aggressive after being so relaxed in just a wink of blink. Could it be that her anger toward Kylo wasn't her own but actually...Snoke's???

When you think about it, Kylo sort of bretayed Snoke four times (You promised me that you wouldn't fail me!)
1. When he chose to take the girl instead of the droide, which was later  revealed by Hux
2. When he expressed compassion toward the girl instead of searching for the map, which was revealed by the novel
3. When he considered leaving the FO during his confrontation with Han, which was revealed by J.J.Abrams himself
4. When he made the girl the teaching proposal
If Snoke is kind of possessive lover, he must have felt sort of cheated more than once in a few hours

So could it be that Snoke couldn't bring Kylo to kill Rey during the cliff - like he did for Han because of the Force moment - but briefly could take possession of Rey - because something clearly passes from him to her - and use her to punish Kylo? Like some of us pointed out, Rey expresses unnecessary cruelty toward him as if she took pleasure in making him suffer. She even scares him to make him look ugly as it would solve the problem by making him less appealing to her. And then she hears a voice telling him to kill him but then quickly comes to her senses before stricking. I don't know whether it makes sense or not but if Snoke sort of used Rey to express his rage toward Kylo,it could also explain why Rey became suddently so powerful and copied Kylo's fighting style so well...
@reylo1992
This makes a lot of sense!  Very Happy
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by reylo1992 on 7/16/2017, 2:44 pm

@SkyStar wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:Someone on twitter posted a side-by-side juxtaposition of all of the new teaser posters.  The differences in the Kylo/Rey posters really stand out even more when compared directly with the Resistance posters.

@ISeeAnIsland

looks like they both ar leaving with Rey looking back for the last time
@SkyStar

Just realized something! I knew that I already saw the same kind of posters somewhere sunny sunny sunny


About Rey looking back a last time, from the Song Days in the Sun:
[BELLE]
How in the midst of all this sorrow
Can so much hope and love endure?
I was innocent and certain
Now I'm wiser but unsure

I can't go back into my childhood
One that my father made secure
I can feel a change in me
I'm stronger now, but still not free



About Poe, Finn and Leia's stationary stance, it's pretty interesting in regard to 2017 BATB because if thhe curse ain't broken, Mrs Pott. and the other will end up in a stationary state so becoming objects forever


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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by reylo1992 on 7/16/2017, 3:49 pm

@Persephone wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:I haven't forgotten that quote from Adam about "It depends on what your definition of living is.  I'm not saying he'll end up frozen in carbonite, but I imagine he'll end up much like his father at the end of RotJ - incapacitated somehow, most likely by the hand of Snoke.  Depending on what went down between him and Rey on Ach-To, she might sense his distress while on Crait, and finally make the decision to go after him, both for Ben and the fate of the galaxy.  

Someone today mentioned Finn and Rose budding relationship being the catalyst for Rey to examine her own relationship with Ben, and possibly go after him, particularly if he's in distress.  I couldn't agree more with this. I'm sure Rey in TFA thought there might possibly be something more with Finn at one point and when she sees he's moved on, she'll know things on her end have changed too.  

I always liked Finn's character and it's a nice way to wrap things up so it doesn't look like he's completely sidelined by Rey for the tall, dark haired "villain."
@IoJovi

Nicely said.
@Persephone

Yep! I don't think he will end up either in freezing carbonite but in some close state, based once again on the assumption that TFA had some big similarities with E.T. and TFA/R.O. with Atlantis:




Let's not forget the parallel we've pointed out on the forum with Sleeping Beauty

Can't imagine Rey in that state...
And providing that they got some inspiration from Little Red Riding Hood, let's keep in mind that LRRH ends up eaten by the Wolf and delivered by a Hunter. However, hard for me to imagine that it's Rey who would end up eaten by the Wolf no matter if it's Snoke or Luke himself for some weirdreason. It just doesn't fit well with her character in general to imagine her spending most of Episode 9 in some passive state.

So providing that this kind of scenario could happen, maybe Rey will get emotionally hurt because the connection will be severed due to Kylo's state.So she wouldn't be only separated from him physically but also spiritually, left with a feeling of lost and longing that is needed to develop their romance in the next episode:

And as Rey is someone very determined, I guess she will go after him like Elliott, Milo and Philipp went after E.T., Kida and Aurora to save them. This  is maybe the sense of the direction they're heading in the poster/. He goes to a direction and she goes after him still looking back at her past but finally  understanding that the belonging she seeks is not behind her but ahead. She already lost for good her past belong with her birth family and may have lost for good her future belonging.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on 7/16/2017, 11:48 pm

@snufkin wrote:IDK if the production team has outright mentioned The Searchers as an influence on TLJ, but it's there in the trailer shot of Luke in sileoutee in the doorway, like the shot of Ethan at the end. The Searchers is one of the central movies George Lucas outright referenced for the first movie (Burning Homestead) and in AotC. And John Ford was a major influence/personal hero of one of the other directors the franchise continually riffs on, Akira Kurosawa. So it's in the franchise's DNA and that shot alone in the trailer is enough to get you thinking that they may do something with Luke and Ben a la Ethan and Debbie.
@snufkin

@Persephone wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Rey's grown up in so many ways. She's accepted that the future means more than the past; she knows she's much more than a scavenger from Jakku, and she's found a family.

BUT.....regarding her 'family'...if Finn has Rose, something happens to Leia and Luke isn't what she expects what then?
It's crazy but I wonder if one of the reasons Rose's character was introduced is because Rey finds herself alone again..........like someone else.
@motherofpearl1
Which would make a joining of forces between the two at the end make sense. Ben and Rey are the outsiders, and the characters who are presented as two sides of the same coin. If Rey has her expectations of family upturned and Ben no longer fits with the FO but can't yet come home due to his crimes, they're going to need each other. The two fighting multiple guys with sticks is rather telling, IMO. But if I go further, I'm afraid I'll get carried away in headcanon, lol. I'm hoping for a surprise mid-battle heat of the moment kiss, but don't want to call that yet. Joining forces against a common enemy is what I'm comfortable saying is likely based on what we've got.
@MeadowofAshes

Yes, and I'm pretty sure that is what's going to happen.

I had this weird feeling watching Rey 'looking up' at Leia..that she's confronting her about Ben Solo's 'abandonment', hence Leia's grim look.

I think both Rey and Kylo are going to find their gods have feet of clay.
@motherofpearl1


[size=50]Yes. I wonder if even Leia's faith in Ben's light is shaken at that point, maybe even warning her that she believed her son was still light and was wrong. But Rey insists that's not the case, now alienating herself from Leia. And with that said... We had the rumor Rey ends up in captivity at the end and the statement from Daisy Rey will be emotionally hurt. This is total conjecture but Ben and Rey taking on Praetorian guards leading to Snoke only to have Ben (seemingly) turn her over to him is a possibility. It's like Snape killing Dumbledore after Rowling built up his sympathetic backstory. It risks the audience hating his guts between TLJ and IX, but it would be a bold move and a definite cliffhanger.[/size]
@MeadowofAshes

Hmm...I don't believe it would be the case. Like I wrote in one of my previous posts, I believe that this scene rather occurs by the very end of the movie because Leia looks so solitary and grim like someone who has lost everything. Plus, I indeed that Rey is neither gonna turn turn to the DS nor end up prisoner or in some near-death state. Her character was obviously not written to end up in some passive state, waiting that someone comes to deliver her.

So that's why I tend to much to believe that something terrible will most likely happen to Ben. However, I don't believe in the scenario of Ben turning good and then turning bad again because committing treason would make him only pitiful to the audience. I believe that the best way  have the audience feeling complete empathy with him is to have him becoming the FO's super weapon against his own will. The poster refers him as "the Lost" which is extremely ambiguous: lost in the sense of emotionally lost Question lost in the sense of not to be redeemed because of his crime Question or lost in the sense that he may end up in some near-death state forever Question

Leia already experienced the painful feeling to have her son committing a patricide in TFA although she thought he had still light Question What could be more tragic for her than having her son coming back to the light but ending up sort of lost forever because Snoke ultimately got what he wanted from him Question

Of cours, all these assumption are based on my theory that we will get some kind of Atlantis scenario in TLJ with Ben as Kida, being used by Snoke and the FO to get some super weapon. The fact is that the FO obviously used the money of some rich assholes of Canto Bright to build their weapon SKB to control the galaxy. Unfortunately, the SKB was destroyed, which means that the money that the rich a** gave to finance the FO was spent for nothing since SKB was used only once to destroy Hosnian Prime. So we may assume that the rich a** ain't gonna spend their money in financing another SKB. I already pointed out that the screenwriters introduced some continuity between the weapon of mass destruction: Death Star I, Death Star II, SKB. They are all terrific weapons but all got destroyed because they all had a weak point. So I guess that the FO will try to have another weapon of mass destruction but won't spend so many years constructing a weapon that would have a weak point - especially if the rich a** ain't ready to pay again for that.

So let's assume what's the point to have Snoke and the FO sending Hux there. We know that Snoke - like the rich a** - is very bling-bling. He obviously like luxurious objects and we know that he'll need this super weapon of mass destruction. We also know that he needs for some reason the financial support of the rich assholes to finance the FO activities. And we know that Crait will be the centerpiece of the battle between the FO and the Resistance and have a key role in the movie. I had never heard about Crait before because I missed the whole story during my absence of the forum.

However, we know that Crait is some salty planet whose underground is made is...red ores

We know from Rian that he got some inspiration from Letter Never Sent where geologists are sent to find diamonds for the Soviet Government in order to finance some weapon. Plus, providing that he got some inspiration from the Atlantis scenario, we have some potential scenario about mercenaries who are ready to make money with the Atlantis cristal - a living source of power - no matter that it endangers the survival of an entire civilization. Finally, we know from RO that the Empire used kyber cristal to power Death Star I and Death II and then that the FO used the power of the Sun to power SKB. Then, what do they need to use as the next source of power of the new weapon of mass destruction if not something "pure, strong, unbreakable" like Snoke says in TFA:?:

I find the absence of Snoke in the promotional process extremely suspicious unless it appears that he is indeed either Luke or Kylo himself for some weird reason. Plus, we are told a lot about Luke and Rey's relationship but few about Snoke and Ben's relationship. Personally, I can't imagine that Snoke has been working so hard with Ben from the whomb just to decide that he isn't worth of his attention anymore.

At a first sight, Snoke seems to represent for Kylo what Palpatine represented for Anakin: a father figure. However, I feel that their dynamic is different. Although Anakin was manipulated from a young age, Palpatine only played the role of some kind, wise but machiavelic father figure watching over him from distance. Anakin grew up with a loving motheraway from his influence in hisearly years, then developed some special bond with Obi-Wan during his Padawan training and finally found love with Padme as a Jedi Knight. Palpatine never ever considered these bonds like a threat even later when it came to Luke's compassion with his father. He always tried to manipulate relationships to his advantage but never tried to prevent emotional bonds to develop. If I should describe Palpatine and Anakin's relationship in one word, I would chose "paternalism".

However things appear completely different in regard to Snoke and Kylo's relationship. We know from the novel Aftermath that Snoke had been watching Ben even before that child was born. I don't know who is Snoke but I was always intrigued by this passage of the novel where Leia sits next to a potted flower from Endor, tries to reach out to the plant and suddently feels some dark presence within her. I have always wondered if there wasn't some callback to E.T. the Extraterrestrial there. We know from Pablo that even if Snoke is an humanoid, he is no human. He indeed looks very much like an alien. Plus, it was revealed by Spielberg that E.T. is actually a plant. We also know that Rey was supposed to see a boy accompanied with Snoke during her vision. In E.T., we get a lonely boy - hurt by the failure of his parent's marriage - who finds in an alien his only friend and develops an unexpected strong bond with him. E.T. and Elliott become at some point so bonded that their lives become interdependant as if they were one. That's why, I believe Snoke to represent much more to Ben than a father figure because he's probably become the most important part of his life in 30 years, the person who knows him the most :

"When next Snoke spoke there was an intimacy in his voice, a familiarity that stood in sharp contrast with the commanding tone he had used with Hux"


However, Snoke represents for Ben what some dark version of E.T. could have represented for Elliott: a toxic, possessive and exclusive friend. When I once mentioned Sben/Snylo for fun, some part of me was serious there. Perhaps I am wrong to think that but it seems to me that Snoke behaves with Ben like a possessive lover/friend would do. Their relationship ain't based on paternalism (like Palpatine and Anakin) but on possessiveness.

That's why, I believe that Snoke will do anything to possess Kylo at all costs and the way he talks to him is somehow...inappropriate pale

The way he describes their relationship in the TFA novel is extremely telling and disturbing: he considers himself like a sculptor who is working with the finest material. A few weeks ago, I watched the movie Rodin: it took 30 years for the scuptor Auguste Rodin to achieve his masterpiece called The Gates of Hell! It required time and patience to work with the material and achieved what he wanted to do with it:


So I guess that like any artist, Sboke considers the material and the product of his work as his property. That's why I can't believe that Snoke would let Ben go that easily: he has been working for thirty years so hard with that child as a material to achieve a masterpiece. And we know from Andy Serkis himself that Snoke has a huge agenda but that this agenda is limited by his vulnerability.

To me, it is obvious that Snoke needs Ben for very specific goal and that he is using him to achieve it. Plus, the way he is talking to him sounds to me like a sculptor who is praising his muse if not the way a guy telling a girl how much he is in love with her. I mean one could easily replace some lines of their dialogue with the lines of a guy courting a girl by telling her how beautiful and precious she is to him:
"I have never had a student with such promise - before you" sounds a little like "I have never met a girl like you before"
"I have - you" sounds a little like "you're mine" or "you belong to me"
Even the way ADF stresses before you and you with th hyphen sign looks so disturbing. Really gets the sensation to read something innaprorpriate, way too intimate.

The next passage is even worse when I think about it. Snoke's reaction to Kylo's compassion for Rey looks so similar to a jealous lover:

There was as much curiosity in Supreme Leader Snoke’s voice as there was disappointment.

“This scavenger—this girl—resisted you?”


I mean, there are two things so odd there. Why does Snoke need to stress Rey's gender telling this scavenger - this girl - as if it was an important detail for him. Plus what for is he disappointed by Kylo? Certainly not disappointed that Kylo  didn't get the map from her : he doesn't  even mention the map in the dialogue:suspect: My feeling is that he is disappointed by the reason why Kylo didn't get the map because he goes straight to this point:

Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her.”

Obviously Snoke doesn't care about the Rey's Force power. He even doesn't care about the map at this moment. He is concerned that Kylo feels compassion for her, that he may have feeling for her. Even the use of the word "flat" to describe his tone sounds so weird. I mean, this sounds like the reaction of someone who is upset that the person he "cares" has feeling for another, right  Question Then, we are reminded that their relationship is somehow intimate: Snoke knows all about Kylo since it is stressed that nobody else would have perceived what he perceives. And then, we are told how Kylo feels about Snoke's rebuke.

No one else would have sensed a difference. Snoke did.

“No—never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?”

“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it.


And then the best for the end:

"And you promised me when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail me."

[...]

"Kylo Ren, it appears that a reminder is in order. So I will show you the dark side. Bring the girl to me."


Seriously: if Snoke doesn't behave with Kylo like a jealous lover, I don't know what it is. I mean, he could have told him: " You promised when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail the FO". And yet, he reminds him that Kylo promised him he wouldn't fail him personally. That sounds so much like an outraged lover who is hurt because his partner didn't keep a promise  lol! And finally, the outraged lover intends to punish his lover as well solve the problem: he asks Kylo to bring him the girl obviously for something else that for some interest in her powers as if he wanted to get rid of the potential rival.

Even if it wasn't in the movie, these lines are canon. What I believe is that Snoke won't get interested in making Rey an ally: he will probably see her as a big threat since she is what endangers his relationship and agenda with Kylo. She has already sort being set as his rival in TFA:


However, we know from the SW databank that Kylo's allegiance has already begun to change although he told Snoke in the novel that his allegiance was only to him (interestingly not to the FO). We also know from J.J. that Ben somehow knows that Snoke is using/abusing him. Plus, we have this shot that reminds me so much of Rapunzel's rebellion against Gothel:



So my feeling is that Ben will realize what Snoke agenda is for him and try to escape this abusive relationship. So I believe in a scenario where Ben will experience some liberty during TLJ - maybe leading him to turn clearly against the FO - but  Snoke -whoever or whatever it is - will claim Ben to be his property by the end and achieve with him what he intended to do for so long. So I believe in a big dramatic and dark scenario with Snoke (and the FO) ultimately possessing Ben against his own will, getting some living source of power as achievement of the huge agenda  and thus obtaining the weapon of mass destruction in the continuity of the Death Star and SKB... and the rich assholes getting a lot of red ores from the FO as a reward they  contributed the FO's victory on Crait and to ensure their further financial support pale pale pale

In this scenario, Leia would have all the reasons to feel destroyed and the audience to feel much empathy for Ben. And let's say it: Ben looks more than ever like a  some vulnerable Prince(ss) in distress needing to be saved from something whatever it is:
@reylo1992

I never thought about it this way :0 It makes complete sense! Poor Ben Sad Remember when Adam was asked if Kylo Ren/Ben would survive Ep 8 and Adam responded: "If that's what you call living." It fits together. Ep 9 would then be Prince Rey saving Princess Ben from figurative and literal possesion/curse/coma
The love triangle is not between Finn, Kylo and Rey - it's between Snoke, Kylo and Rey.
@Persephone

I can see Leia giving up on her son then....and Rey refusing to do so. Ultimately Rey will go after Kylo, not to destroy him but set him free. Maybe alone.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by reylo1992 on 7/17/2017, 4:08 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@snufkin wrote:IDK if the production team has outright mentioned The Searchers as an influence on TLJ, but it's there in the trailer shot of Luke in sileoutee in the doorway, like the shot of Ethan at the end. The Searchers is one of the central movies George Lucas outright referenced for the first movie (Burning Homestead) and in AotC. And John Ford was a major influence/personal hero of one of the other directors the franchise continually riffs on, Akira Kurosawa. So it's in the franchise's DNA and that shot alone in the trailer is enough to get you thinking that they may do something with Luke and Ben a la Ethan and Debbie.
@snufkin

@Persephone wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Rey's grown up in so many ways. She's accepted that the future means more than the past; she knows she's much more than a scavenger from Jakku, and she's found a family.

BUT.....regarding her 'family'...if Finn has Rose, something happens to Leia and Luke isn't what she expects what then?
It's crazy but I wonder if one of the reasons Rose's character was introduced is because Rey finds herself alone again..........like someone else.
@motherofpearl1
Which would make a joining of forces between the two at the end make sense. Ben and Rey are the outsiders, and the characters who are presented as two sides of the same coin. If Rey has her expectations of family upturned and Ben no longer fits with the FO but can't yet come home due to his crimes, they're going to need each other. The two fighting multiple guys with sticks is rather telling, IMO. But if I go further, I'm afraid I'll get carried away in headcanon, lol. I'm hoping for a surprise mid-battle heat of the moment kiss, but don't want to call that yet. Joining forces against a common enemy is what I'm comfortable saying is likely based on what we've got.
@MeadowofAshes

Yes, and I'm pretty sure that is what's going to happen.

I had this weird feeling watching Rey 'looking up' at Leia..that she's confronting her about Ben Solo's 'abandonment', hence Leia's grim look.

I think both Rey and Kylo are going to find their gods have feet of clay.
@motherofpearl1


[size=50]Yes. I wonder if even Leia's faith in Ben's light is shaken at that point, maybe even warning her that she believed her son was still light and was wrong. But Rey insists that's not the case, now alienating herself from Leia. And with that said... We had the rumor Rey ends up in captivity at the end and the statement from Daisy Rey will be emotionally hurt. This is total conjecture but Ben and Rey taking on Praetorian guards leading to Snoke only to have Ben (seemingly) turn her over to him is a possibility. It's like Snape killing Dumbledore after Rowling built up his sympathetic backstory. It risks the audience hating his guts between TLJ and IX, but it would be a bold move and a definite cliffhanger.[/size]
@MeadowofAshes

Hmm...I don't believe it would be the case. Like I wrote in one of my previous posts, I believe that this scene rather occurs by the very end of the movie because Leia looks so solitary and grim like someone who has lost everything. Plus, I indeed that Rey is neither gonna turn turn to the DS nor end up prisoner or in some near-death state. Her character was obviously not written to end up in some passive state, waiting that someone comes to deliver her.

So that's why I tend to much to believe that something terrible will most likely happen to Ben. However, I don't believe in the scenario of Ben turning good and then turning bad again because committing treason would make him only pitiful to the audience. I believe that the best way  have the audience feeling complete empathy with him is to have him becoming the FO's super weapon against his own will. The poster refers him as "the Lost" which is extremely ambiguous: lost in the sense of emotionally lost Question lost in the sense of not to be redeemed because of his crime Question or lost in the sense that he may end up in some near-death state forever Question

Leia already experienced the painful feeling to have her son committing a patricide in TFA although she thought he had still light Question What could be more tragic for her than having her son coming back to the light but ending up sort of lost forever because Snoke ultimately got what he wanted from him Question

Of cours, all these assumption are based on my theory that we will get some kind of Atlantis scenario in TLJ with Ben as Kida, being used by Snoke and the FO to get some super weapon. The fact is that the FO obviously used the money of some rich assholes of Canto Bright to build their weapon SKB to control the galaxy. Unfortunately, the SKB was destroyed, which means that the money that the rich a** gave to finance the FO was spent for nothing since SKB was used only once to destroy Hosnian Prime. So we may assume that the rich a** ain't gonna spend their money in financing another SKB. I already pointed out that the screenwriters introduced some continuity between the weapon of mass destruction: Death Star I, Death Star II, SKB. They are all terrific weapons but all got destroyed because they all had a weak point. So I guess that the FO will try to have another weapon of mass destruction but won't spend so many years constructing a weapon that would have a weak point - especially if the rich a** ain't ready to pay again for that.

So let's assume what's the point to have Snoke and the FO sending Hux there. We know that Snoke - like the rich a** - is very bling-bling. He obviously like luxurious objects and we know that he'll need this super weapon of mass destruction. We also know that he needs for some reason the financial support of the rich assholes to finance the FO activities. And we know that Crait will be the centerpiece of the battle between the FO and the Resistance and have a key role in the movie. I had never heard about Crait before because I missed the whole story during my absence of the forum.

However, we know that Crait is some salty planet whose underground is made is...red ores

We know from Rian that he got some inspiration from Letter Never Sent where geologists are sent to find diamonds for the Soviet Government in order to finance some weapon. Plus, providing that he got some inspiration from the Atlantis scenario, we have some potential scenario about mercenaries who are ready to make money with the Atlantis cristal - a living source of power - no matter that it endangers the survival of an entire civilization. Finally, we know from RO that the Empire used kyber cristal to power Death Star I and Death II and then that the FO used the power of the Sun to power SKB. Then, what do they need to use as the next source of power of the new weapon of mass destruction if not something "pure, strong, unbreakable" like Snoke says in TFA:?:

I find the absence of Snoke in the promotional process extremely suspicious unless it appears that he is indeed either Luke or Kylo himself for some weird reason. Plus, we are told a lot about Luke and Rey's relationship but few about Snoke and Ben's relationship. Personally, I can't imagine that Snoke has been working so hard with Ben from the whomb just to decide that he isn't worth of his attention anymore.

At a first sight, Snoke seems to represent for Kylo what Palpatine represented for Anakin: a father figure. However, I feel that their dynamic is different. Although Anakin was manipulated from a young age, Palpatine only played the role of some kind, wise but machiavelic father figure watching over him from distance. Anakin grew up with a loving motheraway from his influence in hisearly years, then developed some special bond with Obi-Wan during his Padawan training and finally found love with Padme as a Jedi Knight. Palpatine never ever considered these bonds like a threat even later when it came to Luke's compassion with his father. He always tried to manipulate relationships to his advantage but never tried to prevent emotional bonds to develop. If I should describe Palpatine and Anakin's relationship in one word, I would chose "paternalism".

However things appear completely different in regard to Snoke and Kylo's relationship. We know from the novel Aftermath that Snoke had been watching Ben even before that child was born. I don't know who is Snoke but I was always intrigued by this passage of the novel where Leia sits next to a potted flower from Endor, tries to reach out to the plant and suddently feels some dark presence within her. I have always wondered if there wasn't some callback to E.T. the Extraterrestrial there. We know from Pablo that even if Snoke is an humanoid, he is no human. He indeed looks very much like an alien. Plus, it was revealed by Spielberg that E.T. is actually a plant. We also know that Rey was supposed to see a boy accompanied with Snoke during her vision. In E.T., we get a lonely boy - hurt by the failure of his parent's marriage - who finds in an alien his only friend and develops an unexpected strong bond with him. E.T. and Elliott become at some point so bonded that their lives become interdependant as if they were one. That's why, I believe Snoke to represent much more to Ben than a father figure because he's probably become the most important part of his life in 30 years, the person who knows him the most :

"When next Snoke spoke there was an intimacy in his voice, a familiarity that stood in sharp contrast with the commanding tone he had used with Hux"


However, Snoke represents for Ben what some dark version of E.T. could have represented for Elliott: a toxic, possessive and exclusive friend. When I once mentioned Sben/Snylo for fun, some part of me was serious there. Perhaps I am wrong to think that but it seems to me that Snoke behaves with Ben like a possessive lover/friend would do. Their relationship ain't based on paternalism (like Palpatine and Anakin) but on possessiveness.

That's why, I believe that Snoke will do anything to possess Kylo at all costs and the way he talks to him is somehow...inappropriate pale

The way he describes their relationship in the TFA novel is extremely telling and disturbing: he considers himself like a sculptor who is working with the finest material. A few weeks ago, I watched the movie Rodin: it took 30 years for the scuptor Auguste Rodin to achieve his masterpiece called The Gates of Hell! It required time and patience to work with the material and achieved what he wanted to do with it:


So I guess that like any artist, Sboke considers the material and the product of his work as his property. That's why I can't believe that Snoke would let Ben go that easily: he has been working for thirty years so hard with that child as a material to achieve a masterpiece. And we know from Andy Serkis himself that Snoke has a huge agenda but that this agenda is limited by his vulnerability.

To me, it is obvious that Snoke needs Ben for very specific goal and that he is using him to achieve it. Plus, the way he is talking to him sounds to me like a sculptor who is praising his muse if not the way a guy telling a girl how much he is in love with her. I mean one could easily replace some lines of their dialogue with the lines of a guy courting a girl by telling her how beautiful and precious she is to him:
"I have never had a student with such promise - before you" sounds a little like "I have never met a girl like you before"
"I have - you" sounds a little like "you're mine" or "you belong to me"
Even the way ADF stresses before you and you with th hyphen sign looks so disturbing. Really gets the sensation to read something innaprorpriate, way too intimate.

The next passage is even worse when I think about it. Snoke's reaction to Kylo's compassion for Rey looks so similar to a jealous lover:

There was as much curiosity in Supreme Leader Snoke’s voice as there was disappointment.

“This scavenger—this girl—resisted you?”


I mean, there are two things so odd there. Why does Snoke need to stress Rey's gender telling this scavenger - this girl - as if it was an important detail for him. Plus what for is he disappointed by Kylo? Certainly not disappointed that Kylo  didn't get the map from her : he doesn't  even mention the map in the dialogue:suspect: My feeling is that he is disappointed by the reason why Kylo didn't get the map because he goes straight to this point:

Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her.”

Obviously Snoke doesn't care about the Rey's Force power. He even doesn't care about the map at this moment. He is concerned that Kylo feels compassion for her, that he may have feeling for her. Even the use of the word "flat" to describe his tone sounds so weird. I mean, this sounds like the reaction of someone who is upset that the person he "cares" has feeling for another, right  Question Then, we are reminded that their relationship is somehow intimate: Snoke knows all about Kylo since it is stressed that nobody else would have perceived what he perceives. And then, we are told how Kylo feels about Snoke's rebuke.

No one else would have sensed a difference. Snoke did.

“No—never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?”

“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it.


And then the best for the end:

"And you promised me when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail me."

[...]

"Kylo Ren, it appears that a reminder is in order. So I will show you the dark side. Bring the girl to me."


Seriously: if Snoke doesn't behave with Kylo like a jealous lover, I don't know what it is. I mean, he could have told him: " You promised when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail the FO". And yet, he reminds him that Kylo promised him he wouldn't fail him personally. That sounds so much like an outraged lover who is hurt because his partner didn't keep a promise  lol! And finally, the outraged lover intends to punish his lover as well solve the problem: he asks Kylo to bring him the girl obviously for something else that for some interest in her powers as if he wanted to get rid of the potential rival.

Even if it wasn't in the movie, these lines are canon. What I believe is that Snoke won't get interested in making Rey an ally: he will probably see her as a big threat since she is what endangers his relationship and agenda with Kylo. She has already sort being set as his rival in TFA:


However, we know from the SW databank that Kylo's allegiance has already begun to change although he told Snoke in the novel that his allegiance was only to him (interestingly not to the FO). We also know from J.J. that Ben somehow knows that Snoke is using/abusing him. Plus, we have this shot that reminds me so much of Rapunzel's rebellion against Gothel:



So my feeling is that Ben will realize what Snoke agenda is for him and try to escape this abusive relationship. So I believe in a scenario where Ben will experience some liberty during TLJ - maybe leading him to turn clearly against the FO - but  Snoke -whoever or whatever it is - will claim Ben to be his property by the end and achieve with him what he intended to do for so long. So I believe in a big dramatic and dark scenario with Snoke (and the FO) ultimately possessing Ben against his own will, getting some living source of power as achievement of the huge agenda  and thus obtaining the weapon of mass destruction in the continuity of the Death Star and SKB... and the rich assholes getting a lot of red ores from the FO as a reward they  contributed the FO's victory on Crait and to ensure their further financial support pale pale pale

In this scenario, Leia would have all the reasons to feel destroyed and the audience to feel much empathy for Ben. And let's say it: Ben looks more than ever like a  some vulnerable Prince(ss) in distress needing to be saved from something whatever it is:
@reylo1992

I never thought about it this way :0 It makes complete sense! Poor Ben Sad Remember when Adam was asked if Kylo Ren/Ben would survive Ep 8 and Adam responded: "If that's what you call living." It fits together. Ep 9 would then be Prince Rey saving Princess Ben from figurative and literal possesion/curse/coma
The love triangle is not between Finn, Kylo and Rey - it's between Snoke, Kylo and Rey.
@Persephone

I can see Leia giving up on her son then....and Rey refusing to do so. Ultimately Rey will go after Kylo, not to destroy him but set him free. Maybe alone.
@motherofpearl1

Originally, it doesn't seem like the SW team intended to have Leia giving up on her son. Kathleen Kennedy confirmed that TFA was Harrison Ford's movie, TLJ was Mark Hamill's and Ep.9 should have been Carrie Fisher's. So I guess that Leia was supposed to play some major role there including maybe some role in saving her son because it doesn't seem like she went personally after him until now. We know that Colin Trevorrow had to rewrite his script. However it doesn't seem either like Carrie's death represented  a complete disaster both for the plot of TLJ and Ep.9.

If TLJ really ends on a very dark note with Leia loosing everything - not only her son but also the ideal she fought so hard to build for decades - her death can be quite easily explained. She is by far the SW character who has gone through the most personal and professional disasters in the whole franchise. I am no mother but I guess that there is nothing worse for someone than losing definitely his own child. So maybe she would feel too shaken to continue the fight and slowly die from the lost of her only son.

So she could sort of pass the torch to Rey who would become Leia's and the galaxy's only hope in the most desperate hour with only (Grandpa) Obi-Wan's Force Ghost to help her Question After all, J.J.Abrams confirmed that her vision was personal and she hears at some point Obi-Wan saying "You will do it alone". Maybe this is some foreshadowing for Rey becoming solitary again and having to disappear by the end of TLJ like Obi-Wan did by the end of ROTS. I guess that if Snoke really sees her as a rival and threat, he would do anything to get rid of her. And when I think about it, I realize now that Snoke actually might have been aware that Kylo had visions/dreams about a girl long before the TFA events. So maybe it is just some crazy thought but what if Snoke had tried to find out who was the girl Kylo dreamed of even before he turned him to the DS Question

I have thought during  a long time that Luke may be responsible for the death of her parents. However, providing that there is sort of Snoke/Kylo/Rey"love" triangle, maybe Snoke realized that Ben was dreaming regularly of a girl,understood that she could become a big threat for his plan, tried to find out about her identity and sent people to her village to get rid of her. So providing that the parents left Rey on Jakku but died in mysterious circumstances - which is heavily implied by the line "they're never coming back" - Rey would have every reason to fight against Snoke because he would be behind both the definitive lost of her past belonging and  for the lost of her future belonging.

Now, I guess that she would also be put in some big dilemma : if Snoke and Ben end up TLJ completely bonded, it would mean that Rey could hardly destroy Snoke without destroying Ben in the process. This mean that she would have to chose between her duty - saving the galaxy - and her more personal motivation - saving Ben. So I could imagine some dialogue between her and Force Ghost Obi-Wan similar to the dialogue between Luke and Force Ghost Obi-Wan in ROTJ, maybe with Obi-Wan telling her that she has to destroy Snoke and Rey admitting that she can't do it because of Ben.

Even if Rey may be sort of alone in Ep.9, I think that she will ultimately gather a little team around her to go after Snoke because even if she would be the "galaxy's only hope", the hero/heroine always needs a team to help him/her. And we know what Finn was ready to do for her so I guess he wouldn't let her down even if he wouldn't understand why she would want to save Ben  Wink



So I guess that maybe she would go alone first but would be joined by Finn and the others at some point.I am sure that Finn would have an important to play by convincing his fellow stormtroopers to rebel against the FO like Padme convinced the Gungans to form an alliance with her before attacking her palace and setting Theed free.


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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on 7/17/2017, 4:16 am

Meanwhile, what's the deal with Luke - many theories regarding Snoke yet rumours are Luke is the 'big bad' of TLJ.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Helix on 7/17/2017, 7:02 am

The new overlords. APorgable.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SheLitAFire on 7/17/2017, 7:13 am

@Helix wrote:The new overlords. APorgable.

@Helix

hahahahahaha your new signature!!!!
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by reylo1992 on 7/17/2017, 7:27 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Meanwhile, what's the deal with Luke - many theories regarding Snoke yet rumours are Luke is the 'big bad' of TLJ.
@motherofpearl1

I must admit that I don't know really what to expect with Luke because having him as Luke as the Bid Bad to make his nephew more worth of the redemption to the audience, well... scratch

I can hardly imagine that Luke would have been so creepy to corrupt his nephew from the whomb and behaving with him like a jealous lover. If so, it would be super creepy and disgusting in a children movie. Providing that Rian got a little inspiration from Little Red Riding Hood, maybe we could try to find out:
- Who is Little Red Riding Hood?
- Who is the Wolf?
- Who is the Grandmother?
- Who is the Hunter?
Rey was described by Daisy as the Little Red Riding Hood. Aside from the aspect of woman (sexual) awakening, I don't know what makes her the Little Red Riding Hood. Maybe her innocence: the fact that she is still childish and naive in some way, believing that Luke is a myth, believing that Finn is a Resistant, having some simplistic vision of the world (DS = evil; LS = good), etc...

Now, Little Red Riding Hood is about a girl and her grandma who end up both  eaten by the wolf. They only are set free after the Hunter kills the Wolf and opens his belly. As I hardly imagine Rey ending up in some passive state by the end of TLJ, I rather see her getting the role of the Hunter. So maybe that both Luke and Ben are respectively the Grandma and LRRH and end up respectively incapacitated and possessed by Snoke,  which make sense with that poster

J.J.Abrams always stressed how much Luke represented a problem in the storyline. He was frustrated not to have given him more scenes but also admitted Luke's presence would have killed the TFA story because everyone's attention would  have focused on him.

Providing that this Leia/Rey's scene takes place by the very end, it really seems that Leia is all alone although Luke and her are supposed to be reunited at some point of the movie. So my guess is that either Luke was Snoke from the beginning - but then the SW must explain me why the uncle behaves so inappropriately possessive with his nephew - or Luke will end up incapacitated by Snoke maybe as somefailed sacrifice to save his nephew Question Because if Luke was Snoke, I don't understand why he would ask Rey to kill Kylo: maybe thathe asks her to do that because he can't bring himself to kill his nephew but knows that this must be done to prevent Snoke from getting what he wants.

And by the way, here some other details about Snoke's inappropriate possessiveness toward Kylo:

1) Kylo's birth name

The guy is ready to make a decree preventing anyone from pronouncing Kylo Ren's birth name Question  Seriously Snoke, what is my sentence if pronounce his birth name lol! Don't you have anything more important to do than publishing a special decree for that??? I mean, that seems so exaggerated to make such a law. We may assume that Ben either doesn't have the right to let his birth name known. Gosh! If there is neither overprotective nor possessive behavior there from Snoke,I don't know what it is...

2) Kylo's mask
Another thing that bothers me about Snoke and Kylo. We know that Ben doesn't seem to be very comfortable in showing his face. I had always assumed that he hid his face on his own as some aspect of his admiration for his grandfather. However, there is something that strikes me, especially about these scenes:
In the first Snoke scene, both Hux and Kylo are in front of Snoke. Kylo has his mask on and doesn't say a word until Snoke invites him to do so.

However, we know that Adam Driver shot the next scene between Kylo and Snoke without the mask. So could it imply that the audience was supposed to discover his face for the first time during this scene, because Snoke asked him to remove his mask Question

If so, this is an important detail. It means that Kylo was meant to remove his mask first for Snoke, then for Rey and finally for his father. And obviously Snoke would have asked him to do so only when they were all alone after Hux left. I can't imagine that J.J.Abrams would have introduced unmasked Kylo Ren as Snoke spoke to both him and Hux. The removal of the mask was too important to be just a small detail. So this leads me to assume that this was meant originally to stress the intimacy of their relationship especially if J.J.Abrams would have inserted the dialogue that follows in the novel with Snoke having some kind of inappropriate "bedroom" voice there.
Later, we get this scene when they're alone together in the room and Snoke is upset that Kylo has compassion for the girl. Interestingly, Kylo doesn't have his mask there as he is alone with Snoke. We may think from the interrogation scene. that he simply went straight to Snoke to ask for help without taking his mask on.  

However, the novel makes things very clear:
He moved to leave and, at the last moment, gestured powerfully in her direction. The restraints that had held her wrists snapped back into place, once again securing her to the inclined platform. Then he once again donned his mask and was gone.

In the corridor, a stunned Ren found that he was breathing hard. That in itself was insettling. He did not know what had just transpired in the holding cell and, not knowing, was left uncertain how to proceed. He was spared further bewilderment when a trooper appeared, coming toward him. Straightening, Ren gathered himself.

The trooper halted. His evident discomfort at having to speak to Ren bolstered his superior’s shaken persona.

“Sir! The Supreme Leader has requested your presence.”


So the novel confirms that Kylo Ren took his mask on before leaving the interrogation room and that Snoke requested his presence at this moment. As Snoke knows Ben like anyone, I guess that he must have felt that something unusual was happening in the interrogation room. I guess that he knows that no one can resist Kylo's mind probe and that he is aware that if  Kylo had really wanted to get the map, he would have got it no matter if it hurt Rey or not. So I assume that Snoke is the one who asked Kylo to remove his mask for him while entering alone in the room. There, there is the strange parallel with the first scene where Hux is there from the beginning and leaves Snoke and Kylo (with his mask on) all alone. In that scene, he shows up unexpectedly while Snoke and Kylo (with his mask off) are all alone sort of couple-fighting lol!  Kylo's reaction is so interesting there. I mean, he can't bring himself to look at Hux in the eyes as if it was forbidden where he had absolutely no problem as he had his mask on.And once again, he diesn't dare to intervene as Snoke and Hux are talking:

What this tells me is that for many years Kylo had shown his face to anyone except when he is all alone with Snoke and the mask removal is apparently a request from Snoke himself. I don't know what's your feeling about it but something tells me that Snoke is clearly behind the fact that Kylo wears his mask everywhere except in front of him. Something tells me that this is Snoke's will to have Kylo covering himself from head to toe to make hide both his humanity and his appeal. I really don't know if I am right to make such parallel and of course I don't intend to be disrespectful toward some cultural/religious practices but Kylo's costume reminds me a lot of a burqa:


Once again, I insist that I don't mean to disrespect cultural/religious practices because I don't know enough about it to say if it is good and bad. However,  I think that Star Wars definitely conveys some occidental point of view of what individual and collective liberty means. From a French point of view at least, to have someone covered from head to toe in public space may be interpreted as something dehumanizing and submissive.

On a more personal level, my grandmatold me once that she had a very beautiful cousin who was married to a man who was incredibly overprotective, possessive and jealous. She was so beautiful that her husband didn't want her to go alone outside because he feared that other men would courtship her. So when he wasn't at home, he locked her in the house and she tried to escape by the windows. That sounds unbelievable but I think that it describes quite well how far an abusive relationship can go. If Snoke is ready to make a decree forbidding to pronounce Kylo's birth name, I can imagine that he doesn't want his "pure, strong, unbreakable" material to be seen by anyone else than him and even less having someone else finding him appealing, uh Question


3) Invading personal space
With all that stuff, I must say that I am eager to see Kylo and Snoke interacting face-to-face in TLJ. We know that Snoke was always present in Ben's life and that he's become the most important person in his life through the years. We also know from the interrogation scene that Kylo obviously doesn't know how to behave with the girl. Honestly, I can understand that some people found the scene disturbing, getting the sensation that Kylo was gonna rape Rey even if he behave more gently with her than with Poe. I mean, both in the movie and the novel there are some lines...you just ask yourself where Kylo took them because they sound pretty creepy in this context.

From the movie:

"You know I can take whatever I want"

From the novel:

"I know you've seen the map!, he repeated. "It's what I need. At the moment, it is all what I need"

When she maintained her silence, he almost sighed.

"I can take whatever I want"

[...]

True. He rose resigned. "I would have preferred to avoid this. Despite what you may believe, it gives me no pleasure. I will go as easily go as easily as possible but I will take what I need"


I mean, where the hell did Kylo learn to behave so gentle and creepy at the same time if not from Snoke himself who has been using both the carrot and the stick for years to get what he wanted from him Question And all this repetitive vocabulary about taking what he needs/wants. Plus the way he can't help but invading personal space as if it was completely natural for him. I guess that it comes from someone else pale pale pale

"And you promised me when it came to destroying the Resistance, you wouldn't fail me!"

The threatening figure of Snoke leaned toward Ren


Seriously, I expect Snoke invading Kylo's personal space in some  way in TLJ because it wouldn't be the first time in a Disney movie





BONUS: Kylo trying to "reassure" Snoke about his allegiance to him only

“I am immune to the light,” Ren assured him confidently. “By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced.” ==> Don't worry sweetheart, I won't be seduced by someone else than you

[...]

The elements align, Kylo Ren. You alone are caught in the winds of the storm. Your bond is not just to Vader, but to Skywalker himself. Leia…”

“There is no need for concern.”

[...]

Ren considered his reply carefully. “It does not matter. He means nothing to me. My allegiance is with you. No one will stand in our way.”

Snoke nodded. “We shall see. We shall see.

It was a dismissal. Turning, wholly preoccupied now, Ren followed General Hux in exiting the vast chamber.


[...]

There was as much curiosity in Supreme Leader Snoke’s voice as there was disappointment. “This scavenger—this girl—resisted you?”

That’s all she is, yes. A scavenger from that inconsequential Jakku. Completely untrained, but strong with the Force. Stronger than she knows.” His mask off, Ren replied with what seemed to be his usual assurance. No one else would have sensed a difference. Snoke did.

The Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her.”

No—never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?”

“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it.

From Kylo's side, we get: there is no need for concern regarding my bonds to Vader, Luke, Leia; Han means to me; the girl is just a scavenger from that inconsequential Jakku; I would never have compassion for any ennemy of the FO; My allegiance is only to you.
==> Snoke's dismissive behavior makes Kylo feel: preoccupied; hurt; etc...

From Snoke's side, we get: I never had such a promising student -before you; I have - you; You are pure, strong, unbreakable, a masterpiece; We shall see if your allegiance is with me; You promised me that you wouldn't fail me!
==> Kylo's unusual behavior makes Snoke feel: curious, disappointed, flat,etc...

It's just me or ADF ships Snylo Question  lol!

My favorite part Question When Kylo tries hard to reassure Snoke by implying that he has no interest in the girl because she's just a scavenger - not a dame from the rich assholes society of Canto Bright, uh Question - coming from an inconsequential planet ... and then saying that she resisted his probe only because she is strong with the Force. Nice try buddy! But not enough to avoid the domestic fight lol!


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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SheLitAFire on 7/17/2017, 7:50 am

@reylo1992 wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Meanwhile, what's the deal with Luke - many theories regarding Snoke yet rumours are Luke is the 'big bad' of TLJ.
@motherofpearl1

I must admit that I don't know really what to expect with Luke because having him as Luke as the Bid Bad to make his nephew more worth of the redemption to the audience, well... scratch

I can hardly imagine that Luke would have been so creepy to corrupt his nephew from the whomb and behaving with him like a jealous lover. If so, it would be super creepy and disgusting in a children movie. Providing that Rian got a little inspiration from Little Red Riding Hood, maybe we could try to find out:
- Who is Little Red Riding Hood?
- Who is the Wolf?
- Who is the Grandmother?
- Who is the Hunter?
Rey was described by Daisy as the Little Red Riding Hood. Aside from the aspect of woman (sexual) awakening, I don't know what makes her the Little Red Riding Hood. Maybe her innocence: the fact that she is still childish and naive in some way, believing that Luke is a myth, believing that Finn is a Resistant, having some simplistic vision of the world (DS = evil; LS = good), etc...


@reylo1992

I read this interesting analysis & history on Little Red Riding Hood a couple of days ago after the posters were released:
https://www.mayastarling.com/little-red-riding-hood-moral-warnings-and-sexual-implications/
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by reylo1992 on 7/17/2017, 8:11 am

@SheLitAFire wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Meanwhile, what's the deal with Luke - many theories regarding Snoke yet rumours are Luke is the 'big bad' of TLJ.
@motherofpearl1

I must admit that I don't know really what to expect with Luke because having him as Luke as the Bid Bad to make his nephew more worth of the redemption to the audience, well... scratch

I can hardly imagine that Luke would have been so creepy to corrupt his nephew from the whomb and behaving with him like a jealous lover. If so, it would be super creepy and disgusting in a children movie. Providing that Rian got a little inspiration from Little Red Riding Hood, maybe we could try to find out:
- Who is Little Red Riding Hood?
- Who is the Wolf?
- Who is the Grandmother?
- Who is the Hunter?
Rey was described by Daisy as the Little Red Riding Hood. Aside from the aspect of woman (sexual) awakening, I don't know what makes her the Little Red Riding Hood. Maybe her innocence: the fact that she is still childish and naive in some way, believing that Luke is a myth, believing that Finn is a Resistant, having some simplistic vision of the world (DS = evil; LS = good), etc...


@reylo1992

I read this interesting analysis & history on Little Red Riding Hood a couple of days ago after the posters were released:
https://www.mayastarling.com/little-red-riding-hood-moral-warnings-and-sexual-implications/
@SheLitAFire

Thanks Smile

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SheLitAFire on 7/17/2017, 8:24 am

@reylo1992 wrote:
@SheLitAFire wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Meanwhile, what's the deal with Luke - many theories regarding Snoke yet rumours are Luke is the 'big bad' of TLJ.
@motherofpearl1

I must admit that I don't know really what to expect with Luke because having him as Luke as the Bid Bad to make his nephew more worth of the redemption to the audience, well... scratch

I can hardly imagine that Luke would have been so creepy to corrupt his nephew from the whomb and behaving with him like a jealous lover. If so, it would be super creepy and disgusting in a children movie. Providing that Rian got a little inspiration from Little Red Riding Hood, maybe we could try to find out:
- Who is Little Red Riding Hood?
- Who is the Wolf?
- Who is the Grandmother?
- Who is the Hunter?
Rey was described by Daisy as the Little Red Riding Hood. Aside from the aspect of woman (sexual) awakening, I don't know what makes her the Little Red Riding Hood. Maybe her innocence: the fact that she is still childish and naive in some way, believing that Luke is a myth, believing that Finn is a Resistant, having some simplistic vision of the world (DS = evil; LS = good), etc...


@reylo1992

I read this interesting analysis & history on Little Red Riding Hood a couple of days ago after the posters were released:
https://www.mayastarling.com/little-red-riding-hood-moral-warnings-and-sexual-implications/
@SheLitAFire

Thanks Smile
@reylo1992

Is Snoke perhaps the wolf? ("bring her to me")
Hunter would seem to be Kylo...but wow, I'm just not sure. I'm getting hung up on who is the grandmother....
Maybe it's just the larger significance & symbolism that inspired Rian, rather than the characters themselves. I dunno. I do think you're right it's her awakening (sexual, force-wise) and coming of age story that pertains to LRRH.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by reylo1992 on 7/17/2017, 8:38 am

@SheLitAFire wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@SheLitAFire wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Meanwhile, what's the deal with Luke - many theories regarding Snoke yet rumours are Luke is the 'big bad' of TLJ.
@motherofpearl1

I must admit that I don't know really what to expect with Luke because having him as Luke as the Bid Bad to make his nephew more worth of the redemption to the audience, well... scratch

I can hardly imagine that Luke would have been so creepy to corrupt his nephew from the whomb and behaving with him like a jealous lover. If so, it would be super creepy and disgusting in a children movie. Providing that Rian got a little inspiration from Little Red Riding Hood, maybe we could try to find out:
- Who is Little Red Riding Hood?
- Who is the Wolf?
- Who is the Grandmother?
- Who is the Hunter?
Rey was described by Daisy as the Little Red Riding Hood. Aside from the aspect of woman (sexual) awakening, I don't know what makes her the Little Red Riding Hood. Maybe her innocence: the fact that she is still childish and naive in some way, believing that Luke is a myth, believing that Finn is a Resistant, having some simplistic vision of the world (DS = evil; LS = good), etc...


@reylo1992

I read this interesting analysis & history on Little Red Riding Hood a couple of days ago after the posters were released:
https://www.mayastarling.com/little-red-riding-hood-moral-warnings-and-sexual-implications/
@SheLitAFire

Thanks Smile
@reylo1992

Is Snoke perhaps the wolf? ("bring her to me")
Hunter would seem to be Kylo...but wow, I'm just not sure. I'm getting hung up on who is the grandmother....
Maybe it's just the larger significance & symbolism that inspired Rian, rather than the characters themselves. I dunno.
@SheLitAFire

I was going to answer a little longer about it. Well, I don't know if LRRH really applies to Rey herself besides the idea of awakening/maturity. I rather imagine Ben and Luke as LRRH and Grandma eaten by Snoke the Wolf by the end and Rey as the Hunter. But maybe it isn't really aboutthe characters but more about symbolism. I don't really know what to think.

This part of the post about the moral of the story: not talking and trusting stranger as interpretation of warning about pedophiles. Don't think that abusive relationship would apply to Rey and Luke's relationship - unless Luke is really going mad and evil - but it applies very well to Ben and Snoke.

Charles Perrault explained the ‘moral’ at the end so that no doubt is left to his intended meaning:

From this story one learns that children, especially young lasses, pretty, courteous and well-bred, do very wrong to listen to strangers, And it is not an unheard thing if the Wolf is thereby provided with his dinner. I say Wolf, for all wolves are not of the same sort; there is one kind with an amenable disposition – neither noisy, nor hateful, nor angry, but tame, obliging and gentle, following the young maids in the streets, even into their homes. Alas! Who does not know that these gentle wolves are of all such creatures the most dangerous!

Tell me, does that remind you of the early warnings about pedophiles?


Now, what intrigues me is the story about the Grandmother. LRRH provides the wolf with the necessary information to find the Grandma. And then the Wolf uses the information to find Grandma and eat her. So the question that I ask myself is: is the Grandma necessarily a character or something precious Question I believe that it could be an object, maybe this super weapon that Snoke and the FO would like to acquire. The scenario where the hero unintentionally lead the Wolf in the sheephold is usual in many stories, i.e. Milo leads the mercenaries to Atlantis and the cristal; Quasimodo leads Frollo to Esmeralda and the Court of Miracle. So maybe Rey will shows some flaw at some point by providing the Wolf with the necessary information to acquire something he is after Question

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Tex on 7/17/2017, 9:06 am

Oh Hell Yes! This is fabulous guys.

@reylo1992 wrote:Rey would have every reason to fight against Snoke because he would be behind both the definitive lost of her past belonging and  for the lost of her future belonging.

@persephone wrote:I never thought about it this way :0 It makes complete sense! Poor Ben Sad  Remember when Adam was asked if Kylo Ren/Ben would survive Ep 8 and Adam responded: "If that's what you call living." It fits together. Ep 9 would then be Prince Rey saving Princess Ben from figurative and literal possesion/curse/coma The love triangle is not between Finn, Kylo and Rey - it's between Snoke, Kylo and Rey.

I feel like we're starting to unravel things. A reverse Sleeping Beauty with Kylo in an induced coma with Rey saving him would be amazing. There first kiss could be in Ep. IX in the form of a "kiss of life" with her breaking Snoke's control, waking Kylo up physically and metaphorically. Honestly, this would have me melting in the theater.

As for the strange love triangle that is between Snoke, Kylo and Rey. It makes me wonder if this was why they changed Snoke's character from being a women to being a man. Maybe they thought it would be to on the nose? It would have taken the sexual undertones and turned them up a lot. Can you imagine a female villain saying these things to Kylo...

There was as much curiosity in Supreme Leader Snoke’s voice as there was disappointment.

“This scavenger—this girl—resisted you?”

Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her.”

“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it.

"And you promised me when it came to destroying the Resistance you wouldn't fail me."

I'm pretty sure audiences would have drawn the conclusion that they were sleeping together. It would have also made Kylo's interactions with Rey and his attraction to her more obvious in my opinion.

Another scenario I could see happening is that if Kylo does not end up in a coma then he would be possessed by Snoke. He would become a mindless tool a la Hawkeye in the Avengers movie being controlled by Loki or Tuxedo Mask in Sailor Moon being controlled by Queen Beryl. At which point Rey will have to reluctantly fight him again, try not to kill him, and find a way to release him from Snoke's control.

Also we're roughly 150 days from seeing this movie! Yay! cheers
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by fuhry on 7/17/2017, 12:09 pm

The Snoke/Kylo relationship is certainly a fascinating one. As time goes by, I feel like Snoke is quite a different beast from the Emperor. How, I'm not sure.

I was thinking - the reveal between ROTJ and TFA that Luke and Leia are the progeny of Darth Vader seems like it's a significant event. Basically, the whole family gets thrown out of the Republic. Leia, having experienced the evil of Vader (and never developing compassion for him), might naturally react by trying to prove herself by leading the Resistance against the threat of the First Order, which looks just like the Empire. Ben, however, might react differently. He might have a lot of disdain for the Republic, which so easily bends to the will of some politicians trying to advance themselves by ruining the reputation of his family. Maybe his reaction is that the Republic are a bunch of hypocritical assholes, and he thinks they should be removed from power. Luke, on the other hand, would try to make the case that Vader returned to the light side and defeated the Emperor, ending the Empire's reign. No one would likely believe him. He may also share disdain for the Republic.

How did the Vader reveal affect Han? Hey... did Han ever know that Vader was Luke and Leia's father?

Maybe... the Republic attacked Luke's Jedi academy. Maybe they spread the rumor that it was Ben, and Leia and Han believed it. Maybe the Knights of Ren are the surviving members of Luke's academy, who have good reason to hate the Republic.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ReyofLightSide on 7/17/2017, 12:21 pm

@fuhry wrote:The Snoke/Kylo relationship is certainly a fascinating one. As time goes by, I feel like Snoke is quite a different beast from the Emperor. How, I'm not sure.

I was thinking - the reveal between ROTJ and TFA that Luke and Leia are the progeny of Darth Vader seems like it's a significant event. Basically, the whole family gets thrown out of the Republic. Leia, having experienced the evil of Vader (and never developing compassion for him), might naturally react by trying to prove herself by leading the Resistance against the threat of the First Order, which looks just like the Empire. Ben, however, might react differently. He might have a lot of disdain for the Republic, which so easily bends to the will of some politicians trying to advance themselves by ruining the reputation of his family. Maybe his reaction is that the Republic are a bunch of hypocritical assholes, and he thinks they should be removed from power. Luke, on the other hand, would try to make the case that Vader returned to the light side and defeated the Emperor, ending the Empire's reign. No one would likely believe him. He may also share disdain for the Republic.

How did the Vader reveal affect Han? Hey... did Han ever know that Vader was Luke and Leia's father?

Maybe... the Republic attacked Luke's Jedi academy. Maybe they spread the rumor that it was Ben, and Leia and Han believed it. Maybe the Knights of Ren are the surviving members of Luke's academy, who have good reason to hate the Republic.
@fuhry

That would be an amazing twist and would explain a LOT. It also ties in nicely with Bloodline.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Moonlight13 on 7/17/2017, 12:30 pm

@fuhry wrote:The Snoke/Kylo relationship is certainly a fascinating one.  As time goes by, I feel like Snoke is quite a different beast from the Emperor.  How, I'm not sure.  

I was thinking - the reveal between ROTJ and TFA that Luke and Leia are the progeny of Darth Vader seems like it's a significant event.  Basically, the whole family gets thrown out of the Republic.  Leia, having experienced the evil of Vader (and never developing compassion for him), might naturally react by trying to prove herself by leading the Resistance against the threat of the First Order, which looks just like the Empire.  Ben, however, might react differently.  He might have a lot of disdain for the Republic, which so easily bends to the will of some politicians trying to advance themselves by ruining the reputation of his family.  Maybe his reaction is that the Republic are a bunch of hypocritical assholes, and he thinks they should be removed from power.  Luke, on the other hand, would try to make the case that Vader returned to the light side and defeated the Emperor, ending the Empire's reign.  No one would likely believe him.  He may also share disdain for the Republic.  

How did the Vader reveal affect Han?  Hey... did Han ever know that Vader was Luke and Leia's father?

Maybe... the Republic attacked Luke's Jedi academy.  Maybe they spread the rumor that it was Ben, and Leia and Han believed it.  Maybe the Knights of Ren are the surviving members of Luke's academy, who have good reason to hate the Republic.  
@fuhry

That in itself seems like a good reason to fall to the Dark side. Neutral
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by reylo1992 on 7/17/2017, 12:40 pm

@Moonlight13 wrote:
@fuhry wrote:The Snoke/Kylo relationship is certainly a fascinating one.  As time goes by, I feel like Snoke is quite a different beast from the Emperor.  How, I'm not sure.  

I was thinking - the reveal between ROTJ and TFA that Luke and Leia are the progeny of Darth Vader seems like it's a significant event.  Basically, the whole family gets thrown out of the Republic.  Leia, having experienced the evil of Vader (and never developing compassion for him), might naturally react by trying to prove herself by leading the Resistance against the threat of the First Order, which looks just like the Empire.  Ben, however, might react differently.  He might have a lot of disdain for the Republic, which so easily bends to the will of some politicians trying to advance themselves by ruining the reputation of his family.  Maybe his reaction is that the Republic are a bunch of hypocritical assholes, and he thinks they should be removed from power.  Luke, on the other hand, would try to make the case that Vader returned to the light side and defeated the Emperor, ending the Empire's reign.  No one would likely believe him.  He may also share disdain for the Republic.  

How did the Vader reveal affect Han?  Hey... did Han ever know that Vader was Luke and Leia's father?

Maybe... the Republic attacked Luke's Jedi academy.  Maybe they spread the rumor that it was Ben, and Leia and Han believed it.  Maybe the Knights of Ren are the surviving members of Luke's academy, who have good reason to hate the Republic.  
@fuhry

That in itself seems like a good reason to fall to the Dark side. Neutral
@Moonlight13

Interesting metas regarding the political background at the time the massacre is supposed to have occurred:
https://oldadastra.tumblr.com/post/144138756759/bloodline-the-fall-of-ben-solo-and-the-contents
https://millenniumfulcrum.tumblr.com/post/150048329469/the-new-jedi-order-massacre

My fav. part of the second meta:
Had the corrupted state of the New Republic ordered this “massacre”? Had they framed it on the cherished Son to prove to the Galaxy that those Skywalker’s had the potential to be just as bad.  Had that betrayal (from the Republic and his own Family) pushed Ben over the edge? If Vader is who they were so afraid of,  Vader is who they would get.   A constant theme of Star Wars is that we create the villains we see, but we can also create heroes.   Had the Republic created the monster by wanting to prove that there was one?


Last edited by reylo1992 on 7/17/2017, 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on 7/17/2017, 12:47 pm

@ReyofLightSide wrote:
@fuhry wrote:The Snoke/Kylo relationship is certainly a fascinating one.  As time goes by, I feel like Snoke is quite a different beast from the Emperor.  How, I'm not sure.  

I was thinking - the reveal between ROTJ and TFA that Luke and Leia are the progeny of Darth Vader seems like it's a significant event.  Basically, the whole family gets thrown out of the Republic.  Leia, having experienced the evil of Vader (and never developing compassion for him), might naturally react by trying to prove herself by leading the Resistance against the threat of the First Order, which looks just like the Empire.  Ben, however, might react differently.  He might have a lot of disdain for the Republic, which so easily bends to the will of some politicians trying to advance themselves by ruining the reputation of his family.  Maybe his reaction is that the Republic are a bunch of hypocritical assholes, and he thinks they should be removed from power.  Luke, on the other hand, would try to make the case that Vader returned to the light side and defeated the Emperor, ending the Empire's reign.  No one would likely believe him.  He may also share disdain for the Republic.  

How did the Vader reveal affect Han?  Hey... did Han ever know that Vader was Luke and Leia's father?

Maybe... the Republic attacked Luke's Jedi academy.  Maybe they spread the rumor that it was Ben, and Leia and Han believed it.  Maybe the Knights of Ren are the surviving members of Luke's academy, who have good reason to hate the Republic.  
@fuhry

That would be an amazing twist and would explain a LOT. It also ties in nicely with Bloodline.
@ReyofLightSide

Agreed, that's been something I thought a lot about after reading Bloodline. Especially because the public shaming/attack on Leia, people also condemn Luke and accuse them of both twins of being after power given who their father was. It would also fit in with whatever half truths Ben was told about their grandparents being heroes and then the eventual reveal/realization that his mother kept the truth from him. Which being intimate, would feel even more like a betrayal on top of whatever he's witnessed from her political career, growing up in the Capitol, and whatever incident led to him being 'abandoned' to his weirdo and likely fanatical uncle. Like "you motherf**kers think I'm Vader? Well then I'll give it to you."
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ReyofLightSide on 7/17/2017, 12:53 pm

I am really liking that as a theory. One, it would be a shock. Two, it shows the "gray" area and who is good/bad? Three, gives Ben a pretty damn good reason to give in to Snoke depending on what Snoke was telling him and what Luke was doing.

Not sure how it ties in to "finish what you started" though.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by reylo1992 on 7/17/2017, 1:21 pm

@snufkin wrote:
@ReyofLightSide wrote:
@fuhry wrote:The Snoke/Kylo relationship is certainly a fascinating one.  As time goes by, I feel like Snoke is quite a different beast from the Emperor.  How, I'm not sure.  

I was thinking - the reveal between ROTJ and TFA that Luke and Leia are the progeny of Darth Vader seems like it's a significant event.  Basically, the whole family gets thrown out of the Republic.  Leia, having experienced the evil of Vader (and never developing compassion for him), might naturally react by trying to prove herself by leading the Resistance against the threat of the First Order, which looks just like the Empire.  Ben, however, might react differently.  He might have a lot of disdain for the Republic, which so easily bends to the will of some politicians trying to advance themselves by ruining the reputation of his family.  Maybe his reaction is that the Republic are a bunch of hypocritical assholes, and he thinks they should be removed from power.  Luke, on the other hand, would try to make the case that Vader returned to the light side and defeated the Emperor, ending the Empire's reign.  No one would likely believe him.  He may also share disdain for the Republic.  

How did the Vader reveal affect Han?  Hey... did Han ever know that Vader was Luke and Leia's father?

Maybe... the Republic attacked Luke's Jedi academy.  Maybe they spread the rumor that it was Ben, and Leia and Han believed it.  Maybe the Knights of Ren are the surviving members of Luke's academy, who have good reason to hate the Republic.  
@fuhry

That would be an amazing twist and would explain a LOT. It also ties in nicely with Bloodline.
@ReyofLightSide

Agreed, that's been something I thought a lot about after reading Bloodline. Especially because the public shaming/attack on Leia, people also condemn Luke and accuse them of both twins of being after power given who their father was. It would also fit in with whatever half truths Ben was told about their grandparents being heroes and then the eventual reveal/realization that his mother kept the truth from him. Which being intimate, would feel even more like a betrayal on top of whatever he's witnessed from her political career, growing up in the Capitol, and whatever incident led to him being 'abandoned' to his weirdo and likely fanatical uncle. Like "you motherf**kers think I'm Vader? Well then I'll give it to you."
@snufkin

That's the main reason why I think that Ben's redemption can't happen the same way as Vader. Whatever the circumstances are, it can't happen in some private space i.e. where he and Rey would be completely alone. The whole galaxy must witness this or at least holocron must record that because rumors are basically what twist the truth. I can't help but see the similarities with Wang So, Quasimodo and Hercules there, three people sort of rejected by society...

...and accomplishing something heroic in the most public way so that their (re)integration is ultimately made possible, whatever their past actions were.



Reminder that Wang So killed many people before he came to be considered as a hero by the same people who called him the wolf dog. This was possible because his actions counterbalanced the many deaths he provoked. So the question is: what should Ben achieve to counterbalance the bloody legacy of the Skywalker family Question

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on 7/17/2017, 1:33 pm

@reylo1992 - agreed. Both for whatever happens after the credits roll and especially whatever relationship he has with the other characters, especially Rey. Like there will be no reason to keep things hidden. Especially because it just compounded the family trauma and as we say in English, kicked the can to the next person/generation. Bloodline very much explores the public side of the legacies from both the PT and OT in showing how people are happy to praise both Leia's birth mother and adoptive father. Except then the statue (which it sounds like the NR shouldn't have been wasting money on) is destroyed and the turn on Leia effectively trashes the service/sacrifice of her life's work. Along with destroying/trashing the service and sacrifice of Bail and Padme's friendship.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on 7/17/2017, 1:45 pm

@fuhry wrote:The Snoke/Kylo relationship is certainly a fascinating one. As time goes by, I feel like Snoke is quite a different beast from the Emperor. How, I'm not sure.

I was thinking - the reveal between ROTJ and TFA that Luke and Leia are the progeny of Darth Vader seems like it's a significant event. Basically, the whole family gets thrown out of the Republic. Leia, having experienced the evil of Vader (and never developing compassion for him), might naturally react by trying to prove herself by leading the Resistance against the threat of the First Order, which looks just like the Empire. Ben, however, might react differently. He might have a lot of disdain for the Republic, which so easily bends to the will of some politicians trying to advance themselves by ruining the reputation of his family. Maybe his reaction is that the Republic are a bunch of hypocritical assholes, and he thinks they should be removed from power. Luke, on the other hand, would try to make the case that Vader returned to the light side and defeated the Emperor, ending the Empire's reign. No one would likely believe him. He may also share disdain for the Republic.

How did the Vader reveal affect Han? Hey... did Han ever know that Vader was Luke and Leia's father?

Maybe... the Republic attacked Luke's Jedi academy. Maybe they spread the rumor that it was Ben, and Leia and Han believed it. Maybe the Knights of Ren are the surviving members of Luke's academy, who have good reason to hate the Republic.
@fuhry

FWIW, in Bloodline, it was pretty clear that Han did know about Vader being Luke and Leia's father. If I recall, they actually had conversations about it, but it wasn't something that was known outside of the family at that point.

I'd love a twist like the Republic being responsible for the attack on the temple, but unless people are lying, I don't think that's what happened...at least on the surface. Back when he wasn't so cagey, Pablo flat-out said at one point that Ben killed the other students--it's the incident that led to his fall to the dark side and to Han and Leia's split. MSW also claimed to have "documentation" that Ben killed the students.

So, at the moment, I'm going with Ben-killed-the-students. Where I think the twist will be is in his motivation to kill the students. Were the students ganging up on him Lord-of-the-Flies style, and Ben killed them in self-defense? (It seems pretty clear that Luke wasn't around when the massacre actually happened.) Or were the students, perhaps, planning to kill Luke and/or Leia once the Vader reveal happened...or perhaps just plotting something "bad"? I think that any of those scenarios are still on the table, and I fully expect there to be some big twist to Ben's fall that casts Kylo in a sympathetic light.

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