The Last Jedi: General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Tex on Mon 17 Jul - 21:47

I'm loving that the D23 footage/coverage has reinvigorated the forum. Truly, there is a plethora of theories to pick from, all of which could create some really fascinating stories. Whatever we end up getting I hope that it's half as creative as some of the theories we've been discussing. And if we're way off the mark then I hope to see some of our fabulous fic writers producing some wonderful AU stories lol.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Mon 17 Jul - 22:08

ISeeanIsland wrote:I'm going with Ben-killed-the-students. Where I think the twist will be is in his motivation to kill the students. Were the students ganging up on him Lord-of-the-Flies style, and Ben killed them in self-defense? (It seems pretty clear that Luke wasn't around when the massacre actually happened.) Or were the students, perhaps, planning to kill Luke and/or Leia once the Vader reveal happened...or perhaps just plotting something "bad"? I think that any of those scenarios are still on the table, and I fully expect there to be some big twist to Ben's fall that casts Kylo in a sympathetic light.

I'll see you that scenario and add in that Ben's already got youthful hubris, a reckless nature, resentment against his parents/uncle for being packed off to be a Jedi, and Luke got involved in some bad Juju/LS Fanaticism. It definitely has to be something more complicated than all of the supposed Hot Takes and Think Pieces which keep insisting that he's the SW version of a school shooter. Especially after the VF article had the comment by Rian Johnson that he definitely did not write the story to mirror any real world political issues or figures.

@Tex - Some of our theories from just goofing off would make for a pretty hilarious movie. You still can't convince me that Luke's reintroduction isn't meant to evoke the Dude in The Big Lebowski shuffling through the dairy aisle at Ralph's supermarket in his bathrobe. Or that at least one of the Knights of Ren isn't also a trained stylist in order to keep Kylo's hair flawless at all times.


Last edited by snufkin on Mon 17 Jul - 22:12; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Piper Maru on Mon 17 Jul - 22:10

The problem with Ben's fall is that the wording used in TFA to describe it is very open to interpretation. He is a boy who destroyed everything. Okay, but "destroy" can mean a hundred things depending of the context. They could've flat out said that he killed everyone because he wanted to, but they didn't.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SanghaRen on Mon 17 Jul - 22:25

Piper Maru wrote:The problem with Ben's fall is that the wording used in TFA to describe it is very open to interpretation. He is a boy who destroyed everything. Okay, but "destroy" can mean a hundred things depending of the context. They could've flat out said that he killed everyone because he wanted to, but they didn't.
@Piper Maru

At the same time it's Han telling this to strangers. As a father I am not sure he can fully acknowledge that his son has killed Luke's students and has difficulties pronouncing the word "kill", the same way he says "a boy" and not a young man because it's his son no matter what. I'd say that you can tell this scene was written by fathers and Han is played by a father. A lot of fatherly weariness in that scene.

I am also inclined to believe that Ben really killed them and it's the circumstances that will be surprising. But yeah, nothing's set in stone.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Piper Maru on Mon 17 Jul - 22:38

SanghaRen wrote:
Piper Maru wrote:The problem with Ben's fall is that the wording used in TFA to describe it is very open to interpretation. He is a boy who destroyed everything. Okay, but "destroy" can mean a hundred things depending of the context. They could've flat out said that he killed everyone because he wanted to, but they didn't.
@Piper Maru

At the same time it's Han telling this to strangers. As a father I am not sure he can fully acknowledge that his son has killed Luke's students and has difficulties pronouncing the word "kill", the same way he says "a boy" and not a young man because it's his son no matter what. I'd say that you can tell this scene was written by fathers and Han is played by a father. A lot of fatherly weariness in that scene.

I am also inclined to believe that Ben really killed them and it's the circumstances that will be surprising. But yeah, nothing's set in stone.
@SanghaRen

I see your point and I agree about the fatherly weariness, but we need to take into consideration that this is a fictional work. The words are there because a writer choose them. Kasdan & J.J. opted for "destroy" instead of "killed" to enhance the mystery and keep people wondering. Why? Because the first thing everyone thought when Han told the story was Anakin 2.0 killing padawans. It's not going to follow this route because that's what they want you to believe.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SanghaRen on Mon 17 Jul - 22:58

Piper Maru wrote:
SanghaRen wrote:
Piper Maru wrote:The problem with Ben's fall is that the wording used in TFA to describe it is very open to interpretation. He is a boy who destroyed everything. Okay, but "destroy" can mean a hundred things depending of the context. They could've flat out said that he killed everyone because he wanted to, but they didn't.
@Piper Maru

At the same time it's Han telling this to strangers. As a father I am not sure he can fully acknowledge that his son has killed Luke's students and has difficulties pronouncing the word "kill", the same way he says "a boy" and not a young man because it's his son no matter what. I'd say that you can tell this scene was written by fathers and Han is played by a father. A lot of fatherly weariness in that scene.

I am also inclined to believe that Ben really killed them and it's the circumstances that will be surprising. But yeah, nothing's set in stone.
@SanghaRen

I see your point and I agree about the fatherly weariness, but we need to take into consideration that this is a fictional work. The words are there because a writer choose them. Kasdan & J.J. opted for "destroy" instead of "killed" to enhance the mystery and keep people wondering. Why? Because the first thing everyone thought when Han told the story was Anakin 2.0 killing padawans. It's not going to follow this route because that's what they want you to believe.
@Piper Maru

Exactly it's written by people who are fathers and wrote the dialog imagining how a father would speak about his son. I am not saying that it disproves Kylo not killing the students, just that this scene can work on different levels and to me the word destroy in that context might just be there to enhance the character's state of mind rather than being an open door to a twist. We don't know. I think there was quite a lot of thought being put by LK and JJ in how the characters feel. And maybe that's the whole problem. It was not litteral enough. Heck, I could see Harrison Ford say "I am not sure Han would use the word kill" just like he apparently chose the name Ben based on his elder son. I guess I just do not want to read too much into it, but that's me.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Mon 17 Jul - 23:30

Piper Maru wrote:
SanghaRen wrote:
Piper Maru wrote:The problem with Ben's fall is that the wording used in TFA to describe it is very open to interpretation. He is a boy who destroyed everything. Okay, but "destroy" can mean a hundred things depending of the context. They could've flat out said that he killed everyone because he wanted to, but they didn't.
@Piper Maru

At the same time it's Han telling this to strangers. As a father I am not sure he can fully acknowledge that his son has killed Luke's students and has difficulties pronouncing the word "kill", the same way he says "a boy" and not a young man because it's his son no matter what. I'd say that you can tell this scene was written by fathers and Han is played by a father. A lot of fatherly weariness in that scene.

I am also inclined to believe that Ben really killed them and it's the circumstances that will be surprising. But yeah, nothing's set in stone.
@SanghaRen

I see your point and I agree about the fatherly weariness, but we need to take into consideration that this is a fictional work. The words are there because a writer choose them. Kasdan & J.J. opted for "destroy" instead of "killed" to enhance the mystery and keep people wondering. Why? Because the first thing everyone thought when Han told the story was Anakin 2.0 killing padawans. It's not going to follow this route because that's what they want you to believe.
@Piper Maru

I was right there with you thinking that the twist would be that Ben didn't actually kill the students. (I latched hard on to the "destroyed everything" wording, which IMO, does come across as a very deliberate choice from a writing standpoint.) But I'm also inclined to think that Pablo isn't outright lying. MSW could have been fed false documentation, I guess, but we've got two reliable sources saying that Ben killed the students.

I do kind of think that sharper viewers are expected to speculate on what happened because of the word choice. (I mean, if I wasn't following all of the spoilers, etc, I know that I'd be suspicious and leaning towards thinking that Ben wasn't the one who killed everyone.) Because like you say, if it's straightforward, why not just come out and say what happened?

I also think that Ben's fall is probably going to be one of the "shocking revelations of the past" teased by the TLJ official synopsis that was released the other day.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Tue 18 Jul - 2:04

Not SW related per se, but the next time anybody here runs across the Express running a story about the ST thanks to Mike Zeroh, just remember that they are among the league of assholes Rupert Murdoch owned publications (a far more insidious group than the FO) who just pulled this misogynistic stunt on the 13th Doctor. Which includes some rather nasty comments about Carrie Fisher and Daisy Ridley.

In an editorial, Adam Postans said, “it is frankly nauseating that the [BBC] should now get on their sci-fi high horse and gallop into Right-Onsville to plonk a woman sheriff in town.” He went on to call Whittaker’s casting a pure publicity move. To his logic, since Carrie Fisher played Princess Leia and Daisy Ridley played Rey in the “Star Wars” franchise, the casting could be reduced to ” self-important virtue signalling.”

He’s entitled to that opinion, however shaky it may be.

More unnecessary is the Sun’s publishing of nude images of Whittaker from her past roles under the headline “Dalektable” with a mention of Whittaker’s “saucy screen past.” A similar article on the Mail Online — a competing publication — offered more nude photos under the headline “Doctor Nude!” alongside nude and topless images of past, male Doctors. The Daily Mirror, Daily Express and Daily Star all offered up similar images (we aren’t linking to any of them).

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by reylo1992 on Tue 18 Jul - 8:24


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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by reylo1992 on Tue 18 Jul - 19:03

reylo1992 wrote:
motherofpearl1 wrote:Meanwhile, what's the deal with Luke - many theories regarding Snoke yet rumours are Luke is the 'big bad' of TLJ.
@motherofpearl1

I must admit that I don't know really what to expect with Luke because having him as Luke as the Bid Bad to make his nephew more worth of the redemption to the audience, well... scratch

I can hardly imagine that Luke would have been so creepy to corrupt his nephew from the whomb and behaving with him like a jealous lover. If so, it would be super creepy and disgusting in a children movie. Providing that Rian got a little inspiration from Little Red Riding Hood, maybe we could try to find out:
- Who is Little Red Riding Hood?
- Who is the Wolf?
- Who is the Grandmother?
- Who is the Hunter?
Rey was described by Daisy as the Little Red Riding Hood. Aside from the aspect of woman (sexual) awakening, I don't know what makes her the Little Red Riding Hood. Maybe her innocence: the fact that she is still childish and naive in some way, believing that Luke is a myth, believing that Finn is a Resistant, having some simplistic vision of the world (DS = evil; LS = good), etc...

Now, Little Red Riding Hood is about a girl and her grandma who end up both  eaten by the wolf. They only are set free after the Hunter kills the Wolf and opens his belly. As I hardly imagine Rey ending up in some passive state by the end of TLJ, I rather see her getting the role of the Hunter. So maybe that both Luke and Ben are respectively the Grandma and LRRH and end up respectively incapacitated and possessed by Snoke,  which make sense with that poster

J.J.Abrams always stressed how much Luke represented a problem in the storyline. He was frustrated not to have given him more scenes but also admitted Luke's presence would have killed the TFA story because everyone's attention would  have focused on him.

Providing that this Leia/Rey's scene takes place by the very end, it really seems that Leia is all alone although Luke and her are supposed to be reunited at some point of the movie. So my guess is that either Luke was Snoke from the beginning - but then the SW must explain me why the uncle behaves so inappropriately possessive with his nephew - or Luke will end up incapacitated by Snoke maybe as somefailed sacrifice to save his nephew Question Because if Luke was Snoke, I don't understand why he would ask Rey to kill Kylo: maybe thathe asks her to do that because he can't bring himself to kill his nephew but knows that this must be done to prevent Snoke from getting what he wants.

And by the way, here some other details about Snoke's inappropriate possessiveness toward Kylo:

1) Kylo's birth name

The guy is ready to make a decree preventing anyone from pronouncing Kylo Ren's birth name Question  Seriously Snoke, what is my sentence if pronounce his birth name lol! Don't you have anything more important to do than publishing a special decree for that??? I mean, that seems so exaggerated to make such a law. We may assume that Ben either doesn't have the right to let his birth name known. Gosh! If there is neither overprotective nor possessive behavior there from Snoke,I don't know what it is...

2) Kylo's mask
Another thing that bothers me about Snoke and Kylo. We know that Ben doesn't seem to be very comfortable in showing his face. I had always assumed that he hid his face on his own as some aspect of his admiration for his grandfather. However, there is something that strikes me, especially about these scenes:
In the first Snoke scene, both Hux and Kylo are in front of Snoke. Kylo has his mask on and doesn't say a word until Snoke invites him to do so.

However, we know that Adam Driver shot the next scene between Kylo and Snoke without the mask. So could it imply that the audience was supposed to discover his face for the first time during this scene, because Snoke asked him to remove his mask Question

If so, this is an important detail. It means that Kylo was meant to remove his mask first for Snoke, then for Rey and finally for his father. And obviously Snoke would have asked him to do so only when they were all alone after Hux left. I can't imagine that J.J.Abrams would have introduced unmasked Kylo Ren as Snoke spoke to both him and Hux. The removal of the mask was too important to be just a small detail. So this leads me to assume that this was meant originally to stress the intimacy of their relationship especially if J.J.Abrams would have inserted the dialogue that follows in the novel with Snoke having some kind of inappropriate "bedroom" voice there.
Later, we get this scene when they're alone together in the room and Snoke is upset that Kylo has compassion for the girl. Interestingly, Kylo doesn't have his mask there as he is alone with Snoke. We may think from the interrogation scene. that he simply went straight to Snoke to ask for help without taking his mask on.  

However, the novel makes things very clear:
He moved to leave and, at the last moment, gestured powerfully in her direction. The restraints that had held her wrists snapped back into place, once again securing her to the inclined platform. Then he once again donned his mask and was gone.

In the corridor, a stunned Ren found that he was breathing hard. That in itself was insettling. He did not know what had just transpired in the holding cell and, not knowing, was left uncertain how to proceed. He was spared further bewilderment when a trooper appeared, coming toward him. Straightening, Ren gathered himself.

The trooper halted. His evident discomfort at having to speak to Ren bolstered his superior’s shaken persona.

“Sir! The Supreme Leader has requested your presence.”


So the novel confirms that Kylo Ren took his mask on before leaving the interrogation room and that Snoke requested his presence at this moment. As Snoke knows Ben like anyone, I guess that he must have felt that something unusual was happening in the interrogation room. I guess that he knows that no one can resist Kylo's mind probe and that he is aware that if  Kylo had really wanted to get the map, he would have got it no matter if it hurt Rey or not. So I assume that Snoke is the one who asked Kylo to remove his mask for him while entering alone in the room. There, there is the strange parallel with the first scene where Hux is there from the beginning and leaves Snoke and Kylo (with his mask on) all alone. In that scene, he shows up unexpectedly while Snoke and Kylo (with his mask off) are all alone sort of couple-fighting lol!  Kylo's reaction is so interesting there. I mean, he can't bring himself to look at Hux in the eyes as if it was forbidden where he had absolutely no problem as he had his mask on.And once again, he diesn't dare to intervene as Snoke and Hux are talking:

What this tells me is that for many years Kylo had shown his face to anyone except when he is all alone with Snoke and the mask removal is apparently a request from Snoke himself. I don't know what's your feeling about it but something tells me that Snoke is clearly behind the fact that Kylo wears his mask everywhere except in front of him. Something tells me that this is Snoke's will to have Kylo covering himself from head to toe to make hide both his humanity and his appeal. I really don't know if I am right to make such parallel and of course I don't intend to be disrespectful toward some cultural/religious practices but Kylo's costume reminds me a lot of a burqa:


Once again, I insist that I don't mean to disrespect cultural/religious practices because I don't know enough about it to say if it is good and bad. However,  I think that Star Wars definitely conveys some occidental point of view of what individual and collective liberty means. From a French point of view at least, to have someone covered from head to toe in public space may be interpreted as something dehumanizing and submissive.

On a more personal level, my grandmatold me once that she had a very beautiful cousin who was married to a man who was incredibly overprotective, possessive and jealous. She was so beautiful that her husband didn't want her to go alone outside because he feared that other men would courtship her. So when he wasn't at home, he locked her in the house and she tried to escape by the windows. That sounds unbelievable but I think that it describes quite well how far an abusive relationship can go. If Snoke is ready to make a decree forbidding to pronounce Kylo's birth name, I can imagine that he doesn't want his "pure, strong, unbreakable" material to be seen by anyone else than him and even less having someone else finding him appealing, uh Question


3) Invading personal space
With all that stuff, I must say that I am eager to see Kylo and Snoke interacting face-to-face in TLJ. We know that Snoke was always present in Ben's life and that he's become the most important person in his life through the years. We also know from the interrogation scene that Kylo obviously doesn't know how to behave with the girl. Honestly, I can understand that some people found the scene disturbing, getting the sensation that Kylo was gonna rape Rey even if he behave more gently with her than with Poe. I mean, both in the movie and the novel there are some lines...you just ask yourself where Kylo took them because they sound pretty creepy in this context.

From the movie:

"You know I can take whatever I want"

From the novel:

"I know you've seen the map!, he repeated. "It's what I need. At the moment, it is all what I need"

When she maintained her silence, he almost sighed.

"I can take whatever I want"

[...]

True. He rose resigned. "I would have preferred to avoid this. Despite what you may believe, it gives me no pleasure. I will go as easily go as easily as possible but I will take what I need"


I mean, where the hell did Kylo learn to behave so gentle and creepy at the same time if not from Snoke himself who has been using both the carrot and the stick for years to get what he wanted from him Question And all this repetitive vocabulary about taking what he needs/wants. Plus the way he can't help but invading personal space as if it was completely natural for him. I guess that it comes from someone else pale pale pale

"And you promised me when it came to destroying the Resistance, you wouldn't fail me!"

The threatening figure of Snoke leaned toward Ren


Seriously, I expect Snoke invading Kylo's personal space in some  way in TLJ because it wouldn't be the first time in a Disney movie





BONUS: Kylo trying to "reassure" Snoke about his allegiance to him only

“I am immune to the light,” Ren assured him confidently. “By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced.” ==> Don't worry sweetheart, I won't be seduced by someone else than you

[...]

The elements align, Kylo Ren. You alone are caught in the winds of the storm. Your bond is not just to Vader, but to Skywalker himself. Leia…”

“There is no need for concern.”

[...]

Ren considered his reply carefully. “It does not matter. He means nothing to me. My allegiance is with you. No one will stand in our way.”

Snoke nodded. “We shall see. We shall see.

It was a dismissal. Turning, wholly preoccupied now, Ren followed General Hux in exiting the vast chamber.


[...]

There was as much curiosity in Supreme Leader Snoke’s voice as there was disappointment. “This scavenger—this girl—resisted you?”

That’s all she is, yes. A scavenger from that inconsequential Jakku. Completely untrained, but strong with the Force. Stronger than she knows.” His mask off, Ren replied with what seemed to be his usual assurance. No one else would have sensed a difference. Snoke did.

The Supreme Leader’s voice was flat. “You have compassion for her.”

No—never. Compassion? For an enemy of the Order?”

“I perceive the problem,” Snoke intoned. “It isn’t her strength that is making you fail. It’s your weakness.” The rebuke hurt, but Ren didn’t show it.

From Kylo's side, we get: there is no need for concern regarding my bonds to Vader, Luke, Leia; Han means to me; the girl is just a scavenger from that inconsequential Jakku; I would never have compassion for any ennemy of the FO; My allegiance is only to you.
==> Snoke's dismissive behavior makes Kylo feel: preoccupied; hurt; etc...

From Snoke's side, we get: I never had such a promising student -before you; I have - you; You are pure, strong, unbreakable, a masterpiece; We shall see if your allegiance is with me; You promised me that you wouldn't fail me!
==> Kylo's unusual behavior makes Snoke feel: curious, disappointed, flat,etc...

It's just me or ADF ships Snylo Question  lol!

My favorite part  Question When Kylo tries hard to reassure Snoke by implying that he has no interest in the girl  because she's just a scavenger - not a dame from the  rich assholes society of Canto Bright, uh Question -  coming from an inconsequential planet ... and then saying that she resisted his probe only because she is strong with the Force. Nice try buddy! But not enough to avoid the domestic fight lol!  
@reylo1992


“My allegiance is with you. No one will stand in our way.” Kylo raised his eyes to meet Snoke’s ( how romantic! I love you ). “No one.”

We shall see, sweetheart... We shall see... lol!  lol!  lol!
Source: https://sleemo.tumblr.com/post/162707900546/kylo-storybook

EDIT: Wait a minute... Just realize while reading that text in detail...

So it begins with Snoke aknowledging that there has been an awakening in the Force. Then it is clearly written that Kylo would have an important part to play in the coming conflict. Maybe it is only related to his role in getting the map but something tells me that it has more to do with something bigger than this and that the line actually reflects Snoke's own mind. And finally Snoke says "you will face a test first". Ok, Snoke! And what do you plan to do next with Kylo as "important part to play in the conflict" once your test is done Question Question Question Question


Another detail from the novel that I never took time to analyze before :

There has been an awakening in the Force
. Have you felt it ?”

Ren nodded. “Yes.”

The elements align, Kylo Ren. You alone are caught in the winds of the storm. Your bond is not just to Vader, but to Skywalker himself. Leia…”

So Snoke acknowledge that there has been an awakening in the Force and the elements align. What does he mean by the elements align Question Imean, this is a strange expression because it sounds like Snoke knows much more  he actually says. When I read this expression "the elements align" for the first time, it strangely reminded me something but I couldn't put my finger on it. And today, I have finally realized why it sounded so familiar to me:


In eighteen years, the planets will align

The elements align, Kylo Ren



So there is an awakening in the Force, the elements align and Kylo is meant to play an important part in the coming conflict.

Snoke tells him that now that the elements align and that he will be caught alone in the winds of the storm, but which storm. And then warns him that he still has bonds to Vader (whom he blames for being the reason of the fall of the Empire because of his sentiments), with Skywalker (Luke, Anakin maybe), and Leia...So obviously, Snoke wants to make sure that Kylo is will be able to fulfill his mission without having sentiment interfering although he considers him as the focal point of the dark side and the light side. So he decides first to have Kylo facing an unexpected test regarding Han, a test that Snoke himself hadn't foressen.

So Snoke...
1) Considers Kylo as the focal point between the dark side and the light side
2) Considers that he will have an important part to play in an upcoming conflict
3) Has been working hard with the child from the whomb for thirty years to achieve a masterpiece from this "pure, strong, unbreakable" material
4) Overprotects his little protege like a fragile flower (birth name not to mention, costume covering from head-to-toe), "the world is dangerous" speech, etc...
5) Is using Ben for his power like the SKB is using the power of the Sun to destroy galactic systems
6) Will sort of crush him once he ultimately gets what he wants
7) Wants Ben to get rid of any bond interfering for the upcoming role to fulfill
- doesn't think much of Vader and doesn't want him to idolize grandpa
- doesn't like Luke Skywalker (maybe refers to Anakin too) and warns him about his bond
- obviously doesn't like the idea that Kylo may have bond with his mother
- wants Kylo to get rid of Han first although it wasn't originally planned (so obviously Snoke originally didn't that it was necessary to get rid of Han, maybe because ofKylo's resentment towward his father)
- is totally pissed that Kylo has compassion for a girl he barely met

What the hell do you want to do with him, Snoke Question  Question  Question  Suspect  Suspect  Suspect

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by darthbutterfingers on Wed 19 Jul - 3:37

@reylo1992


“My allegiance is with you. No one will stand in our way.” Kylo raised his eyes to meet Snoke’s ( how romantic! I love you ). “No one.”

We shall see, sweetheart... We shall see... lol!  lol!  lol!
Source: https://sleemo.tumblr.com/post/162707900546/kylo-storybook

EDIT: Wait a minute... Just realize while reading that text in detail...

So it begins with Snoke aknowledging that there has been an awakening in the Force. Then it is clearly written that Kylo would have an important part to play in the coming conflict. Maybe it is only related to his role in getting the map but something tells me that it has more to do with something bigger than this and that the line actually reflects Snoke's own mind. And finally Snoke says "you will face a test first". Ok, Snoke! And what do you plan to do next with Kylo as "important part to play in the conflict" once your test is done Question Question Question Question


Another detail from the novel that I never took time to analyze before :

There has been an awakening in the Force
. Have you felt it ?”

Ren nodded. “Yes.”

The elements align, Kylo Ren. You alone are caught in the winds of the storm. Your bond is not just to Vader, but to Skywalker himself. Leia…”

So Snoke acknowledge that there has been an awakening in the Force and the elements align. What does he mean by the elements align Question Imean, this is a strange expression because it sounds like Snoke knows much more  he actually says. When I read this expression "the elements align" for the first time, it strangely reminded me something but I couldn't put my finger on it. And today, I have finally realized why it sounded so familiar to me:


In eighteen years, the planets will align

The elements align, Kylo Ren



So there is an awakening in the Force, the elements align and Kylo is meant to play an important part in the coming conflict.

Snoke tells him that now that the elements align and that he will be caught alone in the winds of the storm, but which storm. And then warns him that he still has bonds to Vader (whom he blames for being the reason of the fall of the Empire because of his sentiments), with Skywalker (Luke, Anakin maybe), and Leia...So obviously, Snoke wants to make sure that Kylo is will be able to fulfill his mission without having sentiment interfering although he considers him as the focal point of the dark side and the light side. So he decides first to have Kylo facing an unexpected test regarding Han, a test that Snoke himself hadn't foressen.

So Snoke...
1) Considers Kylo as the focal point between the dark side and the light side
2) Considers that he will have an important part to play in an upcoming conflict
3) Has been working hard with the child from the whomb for thirty years to achieve a masterpiece from this "pure, strong, unbreakable" material
4) Overprotects his little protege like a fragile flower (birth name not to mention, costume covering from head-to-toe), "the world is dangerous" speech, etc...
5) Is using Ben for his power like the SKB is using the power of the Sun to destroy galactic systems
6) Will sort of crush him once he ultimately gets what he wants
7) Wants Ben to get rid of any bond interfering for the upcoming role to fulfill
- doesn't think much of Vader and doesn't want him to idolize grandpa
- doesn't like Luke Skywalker (maybe refers to Anakin too) and warns him about his bond
- obviously doesn't like the idea that Kylo may have bond with his mother
- wants Kylo to get rid of Han first although it wasn't originally planned (so obviously Snoke originally didn't that it was necessary to get rid of Han, maybe because ofKylo's resentment towward his father)
- is totally pissed that Kylo has compassion for a girl he barely met

What the hell do you want to do with him, Snoke Question  Question  Question  Suspect  Suspect  Suspect[/quote]
@reylo1992

I really loved your analysis. Yes, Snoke is preparing for something big and he needs/wants Kylo for whatever it is. I can't help wondering if this links into what Palpatine was doing as described in the last Aftermath book (i.e. things related to that observatory on Jakku). Some people say Snoke was what Palpatine was looking for with his observatory on Jakku. Well what if Snoke is also trying to finish something, i.e. he's trying to finish what Palpatine started. Or Maybe Snoke was always there and Palpatine was just doing what Snoke started/wanted and now that Pal is gone Snoke's latched onto Kylo to finish what he started. Anyway, your analysis makes me think something big is happening and Snoke is in the thick of it but the 'Force' has other ideas. I really do think that, as you point out, Rey is the 'no-one' getting in the way of Snoke's plans. She's already managed to derail some of them, i.e. Kylo and his compassion and SKB getting blown up. I'm pretty sure that at the end of the TFA novel Snoke was spitting about so many of his long term plans being ruined.

Makes me also wonder about this 'bond' to Vader - does he mean his force ghost. Or maybe seeing as Vader killed Palpatine and he knows Anakin's force ghost is out there, he's trying to stop Anakin getting to Kylo by making him focus on 'Vader'. Maybe Kylo's Bond to Vader/Anakin, Luke and Leia are what will threaten to get in the way of Snoke's plans and whatever bond Snoke has with Kylo. Snoke has managed to alienate Kylo Ren from his family so they (and his bonds with them) can't get in the way (killing Han played into Snoke's hand with this too - it was more than just a test). The problem is Kylo, or shall we say Ben, is showing all the signs of developing a bond with Rey and Snoke has not counted on this.

Also, if killing Han had not factored into Snoke's original plan but was kind of an on-the-run thing he manipulated Kylo into doing (to help weaken the bonds with his family) then I think this will come back to bite Snoke through the way it will affect Kylo/Ben. I would really like to see that Han's death become a catalyst for turning the tide against Snoke and Rey as the agency for his downfall.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Moonlight13 on Thu 20 Jul - 2:15

Guys, I didn't know where to post this but I made a little experiment: I showed my mom (who doesn't know anything about Star Wars, not even about the "I am your father" moment  Laughing ) The Last Jedi poster and I asked for her opinion on the expression of the faces. The first thing she said was: the one on the right (Kylo) looks sad and the one on the left (Luke) looks angry. Then she added that Kylo looks "like a sad child" and Luke resembles God (she was refering to the God of the Old Testament with a very serious expression). lol!
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SheLitAFire on Thu 20 Jul - 2:29

Moonlight13 wrote:Guys, I didn't know where to post this but I made a little experiment: I showed my mom (who doesn't know anything about Star Wars, not even about the "I am your father" moment  Laughing ) The Last Jedi poster and I asked for her opinion on the expression of the faces. The first thing she said was: the one on the right (Kylo) looks sad and the one on the left (Luke) looks angry. Then she added that Kylo looks "like a sad child" and Luke resembles God (she was refering to the God of the Old Testament with a very serious expression). lol!
@Moonlight13

I was just thinking the part in bold the last few days with the posters AND how he looks on the packaging of his little action figure!! Like Moses/God-esque
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by bashfulblueeyes3 on Thu 20 Jul - 23:36

Random question. Does anyone know how long the TLJ is and the rating? PG or PG-13?

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Thu 20 Jul - 23:39

bashfulblueeyes3 wrote:Random question. Does anyone know how long the TLJ is and the rating? PG or PG-13?
@bashfulblueeyes3

We probably won't know the runtime until Rian is completely finished editing it. It's expected to have a PG-13 rating, but it hasn't officially received a rating yet.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 20 Jul - 23:40

bashfulblueeyes3 wrote:Random question.  Does anyone know how long the TLJ is and the rating?  PG or PG-13?  
@bashfulblueeyes3

I don't know if either have been finalized yet since Rian is supposed to finish editing in August.  However, I would be shocked if it wasn't PG-13.  TFA was PG-13, and RO was even more PG-13ish.  I personally don't think they will ever go back to a PG rating.

Welcome to the forum! Very Happy
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by IoJovi on Thu 20 Jul - 23:44

I'd be pretty surprised if they went back to a PG rating.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by MeadowofAshes on Fri 21 Jul - 0:07

*crosses fingers for "A brief moment of sensuality" in the rating specs.*  Twisted Evil
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Helix on Fri 21 Jul - 0:20

MeadowofAshes wrote:*crosses fingers for "A brief moment of sensuality" in the rating specs.*  Twisted Evil
@MeadowofAshes

Chewie and Luke are really gonna have a moment...
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 21 Jul - 0:23

Helix wrote:
MeadowofAshes wrote:*crosses fingers for "A brief moment of sensuality" in the rating specs.*  Twisted Evil
@MeadowofAshes

Chewie and Luke are really gonna have a moment...
@Helix

Well, we already know that Chewie and the Porgs have a moment...

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 21 Jul - 0:27

MeadowofAshes wrote:*crosses fingers for "A brief moment of sensuality" in the rating specs.*  Twisted Evil
@MeadowofAshes

I actually don't think something like this would actually be completely impossible now.  When I saw ads for Rogue One on TV, the announcer actually said "not for small children".  My husband and I were like "Whoa!!! Actually cutting into the toy sales for realism/quality!!!" Very Happy  If they can do it for Rogue One for violence, they can do it with a little sensuality too. Very Happy

Actually I just rewatched Paterson on Amazon Prime the other day, and OMG ... AD makes Paterson's kisses on Laura's mouth, face, back so stunningly erotic that it's insane ... yet you see almost no nudity (and what nudity there is like her hip/butt area) ... Skip the hip shot, even skip the back if need be, but the kisses/touches of face/quick view of a naked shoulder could be off the charts in terms of suggestiveness in a SW movie no problem.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 21 Jul - 7:22

It's Adam's lips....
And let's face it, why is he buffed up if we aren't going to see him at least topless? Let Rey see how far that scar goes.... Shocked Wink
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 21 Jul - 7:25

motherofpearl1 wrote:It's Adam's lips....
And let's face it, why is he buffed up if we aren't going to see him at least topless? Let Rey see how far that scar goes.... Shocked Wink
@motherofpearl1

Oh I think that there was a Matt Martin tweet recently rhat basically said shirtlessness was going to happen. I can't screencap tweets, but Matt Martin put up a professional photograph of Adam in jeans and shirtless, lol.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 21 Jul - 7:28

SoloSideCousin wrote:
motherofpearl1 wrote:It's Adam's lips....
And let's face it, why is he buffed up if we aren't going to see him at least topless? Let Rey see how far that scar goes.... Shocked Wink
@motherofpearl1

Oh I think that there was a Matt Martin tweet recently rhat basically said shirtlessness was going to happen. I can't screencap tweets, but Matt Martin put up a professional photograph of Adam in jeans and shirtless, lol.
@SoloSideCousin

This makes my day!!
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SoloSideCousin on Fri 21 Jul - 7:35

Here, I found it. Maybe he's kidding, but it is quite the shirtless picture.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Paranalunia/status/880729220846059525
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