The Last Jedi: General Discussion

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat 29 Jul - 13:26

@snufkin

This was great, thanks for sharing! cheers

It was kind of terrifying hearing her say right off the bat that when working on a series, there are sometimes ideas put into play in one movie and then completely changed or scrapped in the next one, but I think we all know that can happen, especially when  the films in said series all have different directors silent

Also, I didn't know that they intended to have Leia know who Rey was in the beginning and then decided that it didn't make sense. I wonder if they had started out thinking that Rey would be Luke's daughter and Leia could sense it, but then threw it out. But Maryann kept saying that even they don't know who Rey is, which points to her being "a nobody."
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Sat 29 Jul - 13:59

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
Also, I didn't know that they intended to have Leia know who Rey was in the beginning
and then decided that it didn't make sense. I wonder if they had started out thinking that Rey would be Luke's daughter and Leia could sense it, but then threw it out. But Maryann kept saying that even they don't know who Rey is, which points to her being "a nobody."
@Cowgirlsamurai

Leia upon seeing Rey: Oh yes, you shall be my daughter in law *then proceeds to hug Rey*
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat 29 Jul - 14:11

@Rei of Sunshine wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
Also, I didn't know that they intended to have Leia know who Rey was in the beginning
and then decided that it didn't make sense. I wonder if they had started out thinking that Rey would be Luke's daughter and Leia could sense it, but then threw it out. But Maryann kept saying that even they don't know who Rey is, which points to her being "a nobody."
@Cowgirlsamurai

Leia upon seeing Rey: Oh yes, you shall be my daughter in law *then proceeds to hug Rey*
@Rei of Sunshine

Yeah, she made it sound like there is this inexplicable bond between Leia and Rey and even she's not sure what it is... gee, I wonder  Razz In the very least Rey's probably going to help save her boy's sorry behind, lol. But evidently that hug between them is very important and had to be in there, even if Maryann couldn't explain why.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Sat 29 Jul - 14:19

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
@Rei of Sunshine wrote:
@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
Also, I didn't know that they intended to have Leia know who Rey was in the beginning
and then decided that it didn't make sense. I wonder if they had started out thinking that Rey would be Luke's daughter and Leia could sense it, but then threw it out. But Maryann kept saying that even they don't know who Rey is, which points to her being "a nobody."
@Cowgirlsamurai

Leia upon seeing Rey: Oh yes, you shall be my daughter in law *then proceeds to hug Rey*
@Rei of Sunshine

Yeah, she made it sound like there is this inexplicable bond between Leia and Rey and even she's not sure what it is... gee, I wonder  Razz In the very least Rey's probably going to help save her boy's sorry behind, lol. But evidently that hug between them is very important and had to be in there, even if Maryann couldn't explain why.
@Cowgirlsamurai

It's THAT important that they showed that hug instead of Leia comforting Chewie. A lot of fans were confused and angry about that, but even JJ mentioned that they did need a Leia and Rey hug.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sat 29 Jul - 17:32

Oh God, don't even get me started on the # of people who kept bleating about how Leia "should" have hugged Chewie. It was a moment between two women, centrally important the OT and ST, the most prominent FS female characters when force sensitivity has traditionally been treated like an Old Boy's Club membership, and most of important of all, Rey has been barely hugged by anybody since she was 5 years old. Like can people just suspend their stupid "is it canon?" or "you're not catering to my needs as a legacy/nostalgic Star Wars fan" bullshit for even a moment to just appreciate that scene. And knows who she is, hey maybe it's the fact that we suspect that there are two characters sharing grief, including Rey realizing who Leia is, and maybe even the two characters who have some kind of ability to connect mentally/emotionally with Ben via the Force?

@sacrebleu - yep it's a really interesting discussion about the typically gendered PoV in films being the male perspective. Which got flipped in TFA with moments like Kylo first taking off the helmet for Rey and how he's presented. Which it's like the above 'controversy' about who Leia should've hugged. People react that way either because they've always been the group centered on that PoV (see recent podcast bros who can't figure out Reylo and compare it to Twilight because wut? the dude is the LI? that doesn't cater to me!) or because they've simply been conditioned for so long to see things from a certain point of view that having it subverted from the status quo freaks them out. What's more interesting and feminist about the ST, which you wish people would discuss instead of endless "but Rey's a role model, so she should ________!" comments, is how there's simply a wide range of women presented in TFA. And not women who are central characters, but just women in different roles, ages, ethnicities, etc. Even just having Leia and Dr. Kahlonia show up with grey hair and wrinkles given how older women are treated as invisible or somebody's mom and are instead leaders is quietly radical. THAT would be the feminist discussion worth having about the ST instead of how people continue to treat Rey as this perfect vessel for everything women embody.

@cowgirlsamurai - we'll see with the next one how that works out b/c it appears from social media that RJ is editing. Not the same two team of women. Although if he was involved with TFA's production process and the Force scene in general, then he was privvy to those discussions. It's just ridiculous you have people complaining about how Leia should've hugged Chewie, he took his helmet off at the wrong moment, etc and you kind of want to smack them because there are these other details in play. Mainly about how JJ framed a lot of TFA from the female gaze. Which is pretty f**king radical for a mainstream blockbuster and considering the "it's a re-hash" comments, makes it actually a completely different creature. Because George Lucas sure as f**k wasn't showing a range of women in his films and we got the two actual female leads reduced to LI as each trilogy went on. There's something bigger going on here besides the feel good "girl power! Girls can be Jedis!" rah rah discussions that a lot of fans think is the central topic for the ST.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by snufkin on Sat 29 Jul - 17:57

For a little more on the female gaze/perspective, the Mary Sue had an excellent breakdown of how films like Iron Man 3 are presented as passing the Bechtel test, but relying on the Strong Female Character trope as being feminist, when not really. With (unfortunately) Jurassic World in comparison as the traditional perspective and Mad Max Fury Road. The type of arguments over IM3 being feminist because "the heroine gets to beat up the bad guy" are essentially what you see with arguments about how Rey "should" hate Kylo, end up killing him, etc. People are conditioned by the faux feminism of movies like this one, which are all surface level versus how with Mad Max Fury Road, even how the characters are presented/framed is different.

Iron Man 3's Dangerous Surface-Level Feminism

MMFR is actively feminist, from its writing to its acting to its cinematography to its editing. Its women face difficult situations and violence, it has no one-dimensional Strong Female Characters™, there’s no winking at the camera about how Furiosa isn’t “like those other girls,” and so on.

But Sarah! She kills Killian!! She gets her revenge on him!

Between the camera’s gaze, the film’s structure, the plotting, and writing, IM3 is definitely not a feminist movie. But, I’d place it about halfway on our spectrum between MMFR and JW. It’s not actively feminist like MMFR, and not actively misogynist like JW. IM3 wants to be feminist, but is being held back by the lack of conscious feminist choices.
...
IM3 is just kind of… there. Pepper’s a trophy and Maya’s role gets significantly reduced; they help the movie pass the Bechdel test, but their roles in the film are tossed around for quick emotional payoffs rather than for character development. And that’s more dangerous than JW’s active misogyny, because it passes under the average audience member’s radar. IM3 tries to paint itself like it’s more progressive than it is (hence the villain being so explicitly sexist and Pepper getting a punch in), all the while carrying the sexist, chauvinist attitude that we see in JW. It’s not so explicit as to give justification to turn our noses away, yet is undeniably there reiterating the same sexism seen again and again in Hollywood’s tired repertoire.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Saracene on Sat 29 Jul - 23:04

My issue with Rey and Leia's hug isn't even about Chewie, I just thought that the whole hug scene made zero sense whatsoever and was another example of JJ wanting an emotional scene without bothering to build up to it or earn it. I don't care if they're two important female characters with the force, it still has to make sense within the story itself. Based on what we've been shown so far up to that point, Rey has no idea who Leia is and for Leia Rey is just a friend of Finn's whose well-being wasn't her first priority. If there are some force connections going on, well make them clear to the audience and have characters exchange some actual dialogue, rather than just show a wordless hug between characters whose connection you never bothered to establish.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SheLitAFire on Sat 29 Jul - 23:17

@Saracene wrote:My issue with Rey and Leia's hug isn't even about Chewie, I just thought that the whole hug scene made zero sense whatsoever and was another example of JJ wanting an emotional scene without bothering to build up to it or earn it. I don't care if they're two important female characters with the force, it still has to make sense within the story itself. Based on what we've been shown so far up to that point, Rey has no idea who Leia is and for Leia Rey is just a friend of Finn's whose well-being wasn't her first priority. If there are some force connections going on, well make them clear to the audience and have characters exchange some actual dialogue, rather than just show a wordless hug between characters whose connection you never bothered to establish.
@Saracene

I agree ^ I understand what some others have said above about appreciating the hug and that's swayed me somewhat, but I remember watching it in the theater and then at home multiple times and just thinking it was weird. I feel like even the actresses seemed awkward doing it (runs and hides because I know people will disagree with me on this). It just seemed out of place.
Regarding Chewie: 1. wasn't he carrying Finn off the ship? So it made sense that with his arms full Leia wouldn't distract him right then. But 2. I keep remember how close Leia got to him in ESB in Cloud City...and I think naturally there is a very deep bond there. That was something that was actually so special to me, growing up and watching those movies and the way she moved towards him in Cloud City when confronted by Lando and Vadar. So I wanted to see a hug between the two of them.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat 29 Jul - 23:24

@Saracene

It almost seems like Leia should be pissed, like, "What happened to Han, and who the @&$ are you?" Even Maryann, the editor in that interview can't really explain that moment. She just says it was important... and that in editing, they tried to cover up the fact that a Leia and Chewie hug wasn't filmed. Seems like that scene was a bit of an oops as JJ has mentioned disappointment in it before too.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Helix on Sat 29 Jul - 23:24

@SheLitAFire wrote:
@Saracene wrote:My issue with Rey and Leia's hug isn't even about Chewie, I just thought that the whole hug scene made zero sense whatsoever and was another example of JJ wanting an emotional scene without bothering to build up to it or earn it. I don't care if they're two important female characters with the force, it still has to make sense within the story itself. Based on what we've been shown so far up to that point, Rey has no idea who Leia is and for Leia Rey is just a friend of Finn's whose well-being wasn't her first priority. If there are some force connections going on, well make them clear to the audience and have characters exchange some actual dialogue, rather than just show a wordless hug between characters whose connection you never bothered to establish.
@Saracene

I agree ^ I understand what some others have said above about appreciating the hug and that's swayed me somewhat, but I remember watching it in the theater and then at home multiple times and just thinking it was weird. I feel like even the actresses seemed awkward doing it (runs and hides because I know people will disagree with me on this). It just seemed out of place.
Regarding Chewie: 1. wasn't he carrying Finn off the ship? So it made sense that with his arms full Leia wouldn't distract him right then. But 2. I keep remember how close Leia got to him in ESB in Cloud City...and I think naturally there is a very deep bond there. That was something that was actually so special to me, growing up and watching those movies and the way she moved towards him in Cloud City when confronted by Lando and Vadar. So I wanted to see a hug between the two of them.
@SheLitAFire

I kinda agree. I mean Leia and Chewie knew Han better than anyone, it would be two people who lost someone incredibly important to them and comforting each other. Whereas Rey knew Han for so little and didn't even know Leia.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by IoJovi on Sat 29 Jul - 23:30

Even JJ admits he made a mistake when Leia walked right on by Chewie to hug Rey. There's no backstory between them (unlike Leia and Chewie who had so much history together, and who loved Han together very deeply).

If you ask me, it seems like JJ did it to show off Leia's ring (which the Rey Soloists love with all their being). In other words, he did it because Mystery box...
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by DarthRen on Sat 29 Jul - 23:31

They just needed an emotional scene but sadly choose wrong character. It should have been Leia and Chewie and a lot of people thought this was a hint towards Rey Solo. Only way I can see it serving if any any way is that later on in TLJ Rey finds out that Leia is Kylo's/Ben's mother. She knows Han is his father but not that Leia is his mother. From BTS footage it looks Leia and Rey will meet.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Saracene on Sat 29 Jul - 23:36

@IoJovi wrote:Even JJ admits he made a mistake when Leia walked right on by Chewie to hug Rey. There's no backstory between them (unlike Leia and Chewie who had so much history together, and who loved Han together very deeply).

If you ask me, it seems like JJ did it to show off Leia's ring (which the Rey Soloists love with all their being). In other words, he did it because Mystery box...
@IoJovi

I never even noticed Leia's ring until it was mentioned here. But yeah, the lack of dialogue in that scene was probably because of the Mystery Box and JJ wanting to keep Rey's parentage question open.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SheLitAFire on Sat 29 Jul - 23:42

@Saracene wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:Even JJ admits he made a mistake when Leia walked right on by Chewie to hug Rey. There's no backstory between them (unlike Leia and Chewie who had so much history together, and who loved Han together very deeply).

If you ask me, it seems like JJ did it to show off Leia's ring (which the Rey Soloists love with all their being). In other words, he did it because Mystery box...
@IoJovi

I never even noticed Leia's ring until it was mentioned here. But yeah, the lack of dialogue in that scene was probably because of the Mystery Box and JJ wanting to keep Rey's parentage question open.
@Saracene

bahaha show off a ring? NEVER NOTICED IT. I'm going to look now. cyclops

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by SheLitAFire on Sat 29 Jul - 23:46

sorry, dp. Why do Rey Soloists love Leia's ring??? Is there something symbolic about the ring? Or do you just mean they love the hug between the two?

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 29 Jul - 23:52

@SheLitAFire wrote:sorry, dp. Why do Rey Soloists love Leia's ring??? Is there something symbolic about the ring? Or do you just mean they love the hug between the two?
@SheLitAFire
They love the ring because it has two identical blue stones, so obviously they're for Ben and his long lost baby sister right?
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Sacrebleu on Sun 30 Jul - 0:09

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@SheLitAFire wrote:sorry, dp. Why do Rey Soloists love Leia's ring??? Is there something symbolic about the ring? Or do you just mean they love the hug between the two?
@SheLitAFire
They love the ring because it has two identical blue stones, so obviously they're for Ben and his long lost baby sister right?
@MeadowofAshes

The biggest problem I have with that scenario is the conversation between Han and Leia.  They have this heartrending talk about how they lost their son and how that loss has devastated them.  Had they lost not one but two children, I can't for the life of me imagine them having such a conversation and not mentioning their lost daughter.  My mind balks at that.


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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Guest on Sun 30 Jul - 0:11

@MeadowofAshes wrote:
@SheLitAFire wrote:sorry, dp. Why do Rey Soloists love Leia's ring??? Is there something symbolic about the ring? Or do you just mean they love the hug between the two?
@SheLitAFire
They love the ring because it has two identical blue stones, so obviously they're for Ben and his long lost baby sister right?
@MeadowofAshes

I do wonder about that ring... Not because I think it signifies Ben's baby sister, Rey Solo, but because Leia is still wearing it in TLJ. Pablo once said he didn't include a reference to it in the TFA Visual Dictionary because he didn't know if it would be seen again. https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/792016598747848705 (The account of the person who asked the question about Leia's ring has been deleted but PH's reply is still there).

However, he has also said that there's nothing to say about it so who knows! https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/802958322403901440

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Sacrebleu on Sun 30 Jul - 0:31

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:However, he has also said that there's nothing to say about it so who knows! https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/802958322403901440
@Mrs Ben Solo

Sometimes a ring is just a ring?
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 30 Jul - 0:54

I agree that it was a miss that they didn't film a Leia-Chewie hug (as JJ acknowledges). I can think of a couple of possibilities why filming a Leia/Rey hug might be important...although we probably won't know until at least after TLJ:

* If Ben had visions of Rey, depending on how far those visions go back, he might have told his parents about them (as some here have speculated). Perhaps Leia recognized Rey as the "pretty girl with three buns" that Ben had described?
* We know from MSW that Rey saw at least one major thing in Kylo's mind that wasn't referenced in TFA. What if Rey saw memories of Ben's mother?
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Kylo Men on Sun 30 Jul - 1:11

I would prefer Rey Solo to Rey Skywalker. But it's way less likely. They're not going to have Rey spend so much of the first movie with Han, kill him off, and then say, Oh yeah, by the way, that was your dad. And from the real life perspective, they couldn't be sure that Ford would show up.

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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Sun 30 Jul - 3:50

@Sacrebleu wrote:
Sometimes a ring is just a ring?
@Sacrebleu

True that. Sometimes the curtains are just blue. 

As for the Han Leia convo without ever mentioning their baby Rey, Soloists argue that Han and Leia think their daughter is already dead, and the experience is too traumatic for them to even think about. That's why they only talk about Ben, who is still alive.

Because you know..it's too damn hard for the scriptwriters to squeeze in a line like "We already lost out daughter, we can't lose Ben too."

A line that I think someone out there said was too heavy of emotion for Carrie to act out.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by ZioRen on Sun 30 Jul - 4:29

To be fair about the ring, didn't the recent TLJ poster of Leia also have it showcased pretty heavily? It does seem to hold some significance. And if it doesn't, then the focus on it is strange.
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by IoJovi on Sun 30 Jul - 4:34

@ZioRen wrote:To be fair about the ring, didn't the recent TLJ poster of Leia also have it showcased pretty heavily? It does seem to hold some significance. And if it doesn't, then the focus on it is strange.
@ZioRen

If they are trying to showcase Leia as a woman who has lost nearly everything, the focus on the ring is an interesting touch, provided it represents Han and Ben. There's really no other meaning I can think of behind it, and likely we probably won't get any official answers...
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Re: The Last Jedi: General Discussion

Post by Kessel on Sun 30 Jul - 6:20

@ZioRen wrote:To be fair about the ring, didn't the recent TLJ poster of Leia also have it showcased pretty heavily? It does seem to hold some significance. And if it doesn't, then the focus on it is strange.
@ZioRen

Yes, the ring is rather front and center on Leia's poster. I agree it seems to have some personal significance to Leia which will be mentioned, perhaps by her at some point in the story. I don't think it means the stones represent two children though. It could represent Ben and Han or even Luke and Leia. Or it might mean something completely different too.

I wonder what the stones are made of? Did someone give her those stones? Could they be kyber crystals? Probably not since crystals have a different color and glow?
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