The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by IoJovi on Thu 18 May - 22:41

@snufkin wrote:@ISeeAnIsland - wouldn't it be a sticker about locking up Crocked Leia for stealing the Death Star plans and storing them on an unsecured droid?

@IoJovi - I just wondered which of the local teams out here (Niners or Raiders) George Lucas sides with and then realized that duh, he's a nerd and probably doesn't care about football.  Full disclosure, I also grew up with a gun owning and truck driving dad. But he drove a janky 1980s Toyota truck and made fun of people who'd spend $$$ on a shiny brand new truck when they lived in suburbia and weren't going to be driving in the snow or offroading.

@Helix - Ha! Not that you're wrong about Vader and some of his fans having that in common.
@snufkin

Oh my dad has never been one to have the latest and greatest shiniest big a** truck.  Yes he has a thing for F150s, but they're usually no younger than 25 years old with faded paint, and they're filled with sith he either collects at estate sales or roofing materials.  

He does like Darth Vader, and avid football and an NRA supporter.  We're from the same state as Ted Nugent and Charlton Heston so I can't be too hard on him.

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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by snufkin on Thu 18 May - 23:16

@IoJovi - I think it's definitely a cultural difference thing for Californians, the big a** brand new shiny truck is "all hat no cattle." More for show than a "I need this for work or to go hunting/fishing."

I don't even think I've ever seen an older beat up F150 here. So obvs your dad's the real deal versus the guy I was sitting behind in traffic. I mean, just as long as he's not trying to cut off your hand or convince you to help kill his boss so the two of you can rule the galaxy ; ). Does he know that you and your mom like Vader's grandkid better?









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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by IoJovi on Thu 18 May - 23:31

@snufkin wrote:@IoJovi - I think it's definitely a cultural difference thing for Californians, the big a** brand new shiny truck is "all hat no cattle." More for show than a "I need this for work or to go hunting/fishing."

I don't even think I've ever seen an older beat up F150 here. So obvs your dad's the real deal versus the guy I was sitting behind in traffic. I mean, just as long as he's not trying to cut off your hand or convince you to help kill his boss so the two of you can rule the galaxy ; ). Does he know that you and your mom like Vader's grandkid better?









@snufkin

Lol lol lol

So my dad knows mom and I like Star Wars, but that's where it ends. He knows we went to SWC last month, but he will never know our obsession with Vader's grandson or why that obsession exists in the first place. I took him to see TFA the month it came out (really, it was just an excuse for me to see it again), and he thought Kylo Ren had died at the end!!! He said George Lucas's vision was much better, yada yada yada. I would never mention Reylo to him as he would not get it at all. This is a guy who thinks about fishing and football 24/7.

I'm going to tag @WillowMeena because I'm sure her input will be priceless. Laughing

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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by snufkin on Fri 19 May - 0:20

@IoJovi - I forgot that you're from Michigan, where everybody drives one of the big 3. I have relatives who worked for Chrysler and the fact that my dad was driving a Toyota truck often elicited snotty remarks. And TBF, one of my neighbors has a big a** (shiny of course) new truck covered with Rebel Alliance decals. He even has a Rebel Alliance shaped hitch on it, though I've never seen him using it haul anything.
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by Sacrebleu on Fri 19 May - 5:00

@snufkin wrote:@IoJovi It was the Raiders Nation license plate holder that cracked me up, like could you be trying any harder between the giant truck, NRA decal, and the Vader decal to impress us with what kind of dude you are. I'm sure the driver is probably more a fan of Rogue One than TFA ; ).

@snufkin

Invulnerable bad***.  That's the fantasy.  Funny how contemptuous they can be of what they deem to be female fantasies while so conspicuously indulging in their own.  I read some guy who loved Rogue One describing the scene of Jyn and Cassian arguing after her father was killed as Cassian putting Jyn "in her place".
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by Tex on Fri 19 May - 12:23

Going off this topic of Vader being an icon of masculinity and Star Wars being perceived as a male dominated brand. I follow Beyond the Trailer hosted by Grace Randolph on YouTube, which is a great source for general movie news and box office statistics. In any case she also does shot by shot trailer reactions and a few of her comments made me raise my eyebrow a bit. Now, to preface she is what I would deem a GA perspective on TLJ teaser trailer.

However, she was critical of the future ST films being to “female centric”. Particularly Kathleen Kennedy’s push for strong female characters and that Kathleen’s agenda needs to be stopped. It was also interesting how she talks about the similar opening in TFA teaser trailer with Finn gasping in shock, now Rey gasping in shock in TLJ teaser, saying that Poe will be featured next in the episode IX teaser. Of course all of us would say no it has to be Kylo, but the perception of “the trio” is so strong. She was also disappointed that Kylo’s eye was still intact. Overall, she jumps to some fascinating conclusions, which I feel reflects what the GA and some male Star Wars fans are feeling.

She was also critical in another episode regarding the news of the all-female Star Wars cartoon, which I found somewhat disturbing. She again blamed this on Kathleen’s “agenda”.

It’s disappointing to me how ingrained this idea that Star Wars needs to remain a masculine brand is. Star Wars is universal, why not level the playing field by catering to female fans? Why should any hint of a female perspective be imagined as a negative turn for the films? I know this is not the whole GA, but it does represent a particular view point.

Link to Review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7bbVP9XdjY

I read some guy who loved Rogue One describing the scene of Jyn and Cassian arguing after her father was killed as Cassian putting Jyn "in her place".

@Sacrebleu

This turns my stomach. L-puke
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by Maria Antonietta on Fri 19 May - 12:40

Disgusting to all of this. Maybe she's part of the rfr misogynistic gang. And for the comment on Jyn: I'm nauseated
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by IoJovi on Fri 19 May - 12:44

@Tex wrote:Going off this topic of Vader being an icon of masculinity and Star Wars being perceived as a male dominated brand. I follow Beyond the Trailer hosted by Grace Randolph on YouTube, which is a great source for general movie news and box office statistics. In any case she also does shot by shot trailer reactions and a few of her comments made me raise my eyebrow a bit. Now, to preface she is what I would deem a GA perspective on TLJ teaser trailer.

However, she was critical of the future ST films being to “female centric”. Particularly Kathleen Kennedy’s push for strong female characters and that Kathleen’s agenda needs to be stopped. It was also interesting how she talks about the similar opening in TFA teaser trailer with Finn gasping in shock, now Rey gasping in shock in TLJ teaser, saying that Poe will be featured next in the episode IX teaser. Of course all of us would say no it has to be Kylo, but the perception of “the trio” is so strong. She was also disappointed that Kylo’s eye was still intact. Overall, she jumps to some fascinating conclusions, which I feel reflects what the GA and some male Star Wars fans are feeling.

She was also critical in another episode regarding the news of the all-female Star Wars cartoon, which I found somewhat disturbing. She again blamed this on Kathleen’s “agenda”.

It’s disappointing to me how ingrained this idea that Star Wars needs to remain a masculine brand is. Star Wars is universal, why not level the playing field by catering to female fans? Why should any hint of a female perspective be imagined as a negative turn for the films? I know this is not the whole GA, but it does represent a particular view point.

Link to Review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7bbVP9XdjY

I read some guy who loved Rogue One describing the scene of Jyn and Cassian arguing after her father was killed as Cassian putting Jyn "in her place".

@Sacrebleu

This turns my stomach. L-puke
@Tex

What you describe here is so many ways of crazy, I don't know where to begin. If she's expecting him to get uglier, she wasn't paying attention. The rest of it though, is much worse than having Rey and Kylo's true dynamic fly over her head. Kathleen Kennedy must be stopped? That's just nuts.

As far as the GA is concerned though, most of them aren't reflected here. One of my good friends in SoCal is very GA and very into her romance novels, with Nicholas Sparks being her favorite. She's a sucker for epic love stories.

Well, Reylo did initially fly under the radar with her and she didn't pick up on it. However, when I pointed it out to her during an online conversation, I thought she was going to jump through the screen. I wish I could have been there to see her eyes light up! She absolutely loved that idea!!!

So that gives me hope that the general audience at the end of the day will eat this right up.

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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by vaderito on Fri 19 May - 12:51

LOL, you guys don't know that Grace Randolph is a joke? Nobody takes her seriously. It's, like, if she likes something, you should run in the opposite direction. Laughing
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by Tex on Fri 19 May - 12:57

@IoJovi

That's adorable about you're friend. Yes, I too would like to think that the GA will fall in love with Reylo the way we all do once they see the big picture. It's just disturbing to me that there are people out there who think this way.

@vaderito

I wasn't aware that she was seen as a joke, but she has tons of followers who must enjoy some of her opinion. So I would imagine that there is a portion who would share her opinion on these matters. That in it self is what is upsetting to me.
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by DarthRen on Fri 19 May - 13:00

@Tex wrote:@IoJovi

That's adorable about you're friend. Yes, I too would like to think that the GA will fall in love with Reylo the way we all do once they see the big picture. It's just disturbing to me that there are people out there who think this way.

@vaderito

I wasn't aware that she was seen as a joke, but she has tons of followers who must enjoy some of her opinion. So I would imagine that there is a portion who would share her opinion on these matters. That in it self is what is upsetting to me.
@Tex

GA is not really that invested into this and from the few I've been talking either they dislike this or don't care. People will hate or love it, they'll make their assumptions regardless whether it makes sense or not in the plot to them. It will just be the way they see it.
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by vaderito on Fri 19 May - 13:02

@Tex wrote:@IoJovi

That's adorable about you're friend. Yes, I too would like to think that the GA will fall in love with Reylo the way we all do once they see the big picture. It's just disturbing to me that there are people out there who think this way.

@vaderito

I wasn't aware that she was seen as a joke, but she has tons of followers who must enjoy some of her opinion. So I would imagine that there is a portion who would share her opinion on these matters. That in it self is what is upsetting to me.
@Tex

I honestly don't know why Internet mini-celebs are still taken as speakers for GA. They are not. She cna think whatever she wants and have as many followers as she wants, her reading of TFA was wrong and so is her reading of TLJ. She doens't make movies, has zero influence on LF, and certainly won't endear herself to KK by calling her biased or whatever. In short, she's like any other YT/Twitter blogger.
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by Tex on Fri 19 May - 13:10

@vaderito

I realize she has no influence and that she doesn't speak for everyone. I just thought this made for an interesting point of discussion regarding the topic of Vader being a masculine icon and the misogynistic comment regarding Jyn.
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by vaderito on Fri 19 May - 13:13

@Tex wrote:@vaderito

I realize she has no influence and that she doesn't speak for everyone. I just thought this made for an interesting point of discussion regarding the topic of Vader being a masculine icon and the misogynistic comment regarding Jyn.
@Tex

Oh, that for sure. In the Internet blog/podcast-sphere, there are quite a few women who think like a stereotypical fanboy, that SW should be kept masculine.
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by Tex on Fri 19 May - 13:25

@vaderito

Why do you think that is? Especially when it comes to female fans promoting this sort of stance.
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by Helix on Fri 19 May - 13:31

Personally, I've always seen it as a need to fit in ( since there's such a big divide between the female and male sides of fandoms most of the time ) and so they adapt the male fandom's ideas. Especially since things like SW are traditionally thought of as male dominated/masculine fandoms.
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by vaderito on Fri 19 May - 13:33

@Tex wrote:@vaderito

Why do you think that is? Especially when it comes to female fans promoting this sort of stance.
@Tex

Some female fans may genuinely like masculine SW. Not all female fans are feminists or find kickass heroines appealing. other may want to be accepted by mainstream male media and therefore try to act like fanboys (I like ships as in vehicles, and I despise ships as in romance).
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Fri 19 May - 13:49

@Tex wrote:@IoJovi

That's adorable about you're friend. Yes, I too would like to think that the GA will fall in love with Reylo the way we all do once they see the big picture. It's just disturbing to me that there are people out there who think this way.

@vaderito

I wasn't aware that she was seen as a joke, but she has tons of followers who must enjoy some of her opinion. So I would imagine that there is a portion who would share her opinion on these matters. That in it self is what is upsetting to me.
@Tex

What's hilarious to me is that while we're all over here talking about literary tropes, etc, when I talk to neutral men (e.g. my husband and brother) about the possibility of Rey and Kylo together, they're both like, "Oh yeah, if they're not related, they're totally gonna bang". So, I think that if nothing else, if people aren't blinded by Reylated, they totally see the onscreen chemistry and subtext.

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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by Darth_Awakened on Fri 19 May - 13:57

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Tex wrote:@IoJovi

That's adorable about you're friend. Yes, I too would like to think that the GA will fall in love with Reylo the way we all do once they see the big picture. It's just disturbing to me that there are people out there who think this way.

@vaderito

I wasn't aware that she was seen as a joke, but she has tons of followers who must enjoy some of her opinion. So I would imagine that there is a portion who would share her opinion on these matters. That in it self is what is upsetting to me.
@Tex

What's hilarious to me is that while we're all over here talking about literary tropes, etc, when I talk to neutral men (e.g. my husband and brother) about the possibility of Rey and Kylo together, they're both like, "Oh yeah, if they're not related, they're totally gonna bang". So, I think that if nothing else, if people aren't blinded by Reylated, they totally see the onscreen chemistry and subtext.
@ISeeAnIsland

And most of the GA men are in the same boat. They saw OT, they saw TFA, without deeper thinking, because they're not so into it: the first thought was "Reylation". Just because OT was full of family reveals.
However, the most of them have nothing against Reylo.

I think we tend to loose perspective sometimes because of very vocal part of fanbase.
They're just minority compared to the numbers of GA.
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by vaderito on Fri 19 May - 14:12

not to mention that thinking that Rey is Reylated doesn't equal wanting her to be. Many people absolutely cringe at the thought that she may be cause it's lame and lazy. It's really a very tiny part of rabid fandom that want her to be Reylated. It may be an anecdotal evidence but I've met more people IRL who are anti-Reywalker (any combination, be it through Luke or Leia) than Rey Nobody or Rey Kenobi, Rey Anyone But Skywalkers. It isn't as popular as reywalkers make it out to be.
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by snufkin on Fri 19 May - 14:26

@Tex, it's like most things in society. Some women want things a certain way because they benefit from benevolent sexism. You get allowed in the Old Boys Club and the special status for being able to rise above the supposed limitations or 'inferior' ways of our gender Kind of like this "joke"



That's a big part of why sure, I'm personally not into things like Twilight, 50 Shades, Tumblr, shipping, or fan fiction. But I find it to be some serious misogynistic bullshit anytime I read a snarky comment or dig about the ST and the discussions about what's going between these two characters where anything on that list gets mentioned. Because it's a total dog whistle for things female fans (and in some cases, teenage girls) like and are active in as part of enjoying/being a fan. It's a gendered dig under the guise of being cooler/smarter because it's not male. And for some female fans, unfortunately they buy into that. Either as the "cool girl" stereotype we've discussed here (can wear the Leia slave bikini and talk about X Wing specs) or for some female/feminist fans, they've had to fight for so long with gatekeeping and fan misogyny that they steer clear of anything that could be mocked/derided as such.

@sacrebleu, that's f**king awful. Also a big part of why a lot of the praise from some circles that R1 is a superior film also has to do with who it's geared towards. We have Jyn as the lead character (and f**king right on to Felicity Jones making LF pay her more than her male costars), but she's like Leia with being almost the only female character and scant dialogue in the middle of a sausage party

Rogue One Not that Empowering for Women According to the Data

Rogue One had fewer female characters (as a percentage of the total) than any other of the top 10 U.S. box office hits of 2016.
Furthermore, just 17 percent of the film's dialogue was spoken by women — way below the top movies' average — and Jyn's supposed sidekick, Captain Cassian Andor, was given more words to speak than Jyn herself.

With just 9% of its speaking roles given to women, Rogue One has the lowest gender equality on the list. (None of the films hit the magic 50% mark, though the animated hits Zootopia and Finding Dory — both of which also have female leads — came close.)

In terms of dialogue, Rogue One isn't the worst offender on the list; that dishonor goes to Jungle Book, with only 10% of its dialogue spoken by female characters.

But the Star Wars movie's dialogue numbers are certainly eye-opening. Jyn speaks 1,045 words; Cassian Andor, her second-in-command on the final battle on the planet Scarif, has 1,355.

If you had the nagging sense that Jyn seems to spend a lot of her screen time in silence, it turns out you were right.

But there's a disturbing pattern here. Mon Mothma, female leader of the rebellion, has 169 words. Her supposed underling, General Draven, a man who secretly countermands her order to Captain Andor ("forget what you heard in there, there will be no extraction"), has 206 words.

This, then, may be the next frontier for gender representation in films. It may not be enough to simply pass the widely-known Bechdel test — having two named female characters conversing on a subject other than a man. (Rogue One passes the Bechdel test in the first 10 minutes.)


For all the talk of it being better, it's not like I've read any of those comments praising how it had a female lead, or what it means to have Diego Luna on screen as a rebellion bad a** speaking in his accent with all the anti-Mexican rhetoric from our election, or how kids could finally watch a movie where they see people who look like them on screen as the good guys. If any of that exists from the traditionalist quarters, I've yet to see it.
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by Helix on Fri 19 May - 14:36

I see more traditionalists complain about diversity and the idea of more representation than praise it... They use buzz words like 'agenda' instead of seeing all the positives of it, mostly because it often doesn't benefit them in any way.
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by snufkin on Fri 19 May - 14:38

And I don't even know how people ever started to think that it was something inherently masculine, other than the OT being a sausage fest. When I went through my phase in childhood of being obsessed, the only other fans I ever interacted with (friends, classmates) were female. Also the whole concept of thinking that Rey has to be Reylated because it's tied in with being a long-term fan or having your fandom tied in with childhood nostalgia is a big 'ol Interrobang for me. Star Wars was one of the central obsessions of my childhood and I can tell you that it never would occur to me (or seem logical even given my knowledge from childhood) that Rey would be the abandoned/lost child of any of the original characters. And like @ISeeanIsland's husband and brother, my first thought after those two characters started circling each other was to start laughing because it seemed pretty obvious that those two were attracted to each other. Like I don't even have to claim some kind of cred as a childhood fan - young attractive characters one male and one female, not hard to see the potential. But maybe it's that I'm a 'bad fan' because Luke was my least favorite character (I actually like how he's not in TFA) and I was always more interested in what Leia was able to do/had to put up with as the sole female character and youngest/smartest person in the room.

Also in general about fandom and discussions, this is really worth amplifying about female film critics when the Internet has made it even more of (fan)boys clubhouse

Film Twitter needs more female voices, so does everywhere else

Film Twitter cannot be defined. You just know it when you see it: That harried melting pot of 140 character hot-takes, combining blockbuster gossip with auteur analysis, arguing with both good nature and genuine sharpness, a vague social club that can feel simultaneously open to all and oddly elitist. I’ve met some of the best, most urgent voices in film criticism through my tentative trek into these muddied waters, and most of them were women I never would have found through my casual forays across the internet. Yet I feel the starkness of the gender divide heavily here, much like the industry for which Twitter is but a vocal microcosm of. This damn lawsuit is a particular example of that, but I also see it in the way certain films are discussed, or entire genres are dismissed immediately. Claire White at b**** Flicks wrote about this gendered bias in relation to the works of Sofia Coppola, but it can also be seen in the way women directors are written about as glorious exceptions to the rest of our gender, or in the shunting of half the population from taking on major blockbusters while every scruffy white dude in a baseball cap gets his own franchise...When every story you see, particularly the most expensive and widely appealing ones, are told exclusively through a white male lens, something is fundamentally wrong with our culture. The same can be said about the ways in which we consume and understand that culture. Even the most understanding and erudite of male critics — seriously, we do love you guys — can stumble when it comes to work made by and for women. Just check out the way romance novels are dismissed almost universally by literary outlets unless they need a quick Valentine’s Day hit-piece; or the sneering at the true crime genre, something mostly consumed by women, until it became critically acceptable to do so; or the barrage of think-pieces that follow the failure or success of every film made by or starring women, wondering what it signals for the future of the industry.

There is still an overwhelming assumption that the most privileged voices in our society represent an apolitical default mode, wherein they are qualified to talk authoritatively on every issue, free from a supposed agenda. That attitude tends to extend towards the cultural and social context of a piece of art too, so you see a lot of insistence on “separating art from the artist”, which is a pleasant falsehood and also a boring way to do criticism. When the critics recommending the films are from such a narrow demographic, and their views cannot help but be slanted by that bias, we all miss out. There is no artistic joy in false neutrality. This gap is all the wider for women of colour in our industry, who must fight a much tougher battle for representation and a chance to have their voices amplified. Yet they’re the ones leading the way for major industry change - #OscarsSoWhite would not have happened without a black woman critic making it happen.
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by Darth_Awakened on Fri 19 May - 16:00

@vaderito wrote:not to mention that thinking that Rey is Reylated doesn't equal wanting her to be. Many people absolutely cringe at the thought that she may be cause it's lame and lazy. It's really a very tiny part of rabid fandom that want her to be Reylated. It may be an anecdotal evidence but I've met more people IRL who are anti-Reywalker (any combination, be it through Luke or Leia) than Rey Nobody or Rey Kenobi, Rey Anyone But Skywalkers. It isn't as popular as reywalkers make it out to be.
@vaderito

Definitely. Two completely different things.
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Darth_Awakened
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Re: The Last Jedi Trailer(s)

Post by Piper Maru on Fri 19 May - 16:19

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@vaderito wrote:not to mention that thinking that Rey is Reylated doesn't equal wanting her to be. Many people absolutely cringe at the thought that she may be cause it's lame and lazy. It's really a very tiny part of rabid fandom that want her to be Reylated. It may be an anecdotal evidence but I've met more people IRL who are anti-Reywalker (any combination, be it through Luke or Leia) than Rey Nobody or Rey Kenobi, Rey Anyone But Skywalkers. It isn't as popular as reywalkers make it out to be.
@vaderito

Definitely. Two completely different things.
@Darth_Awakened

I agree. I know a lot of people IRL (fans and casual viewers) who don't buy Reywalker at all and don't want it to happen. Reywalker is only wildly popular on the internet, particularly SW restrict forums and tumblr.
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