Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

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Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 22 Apr - 6:22

I think Kylo's best chance at getting a fresh start is if most people are unaware of his real identity, but now he's going unmasked this seems unlikely.
Sadly, the very fact that his mother's career was ruined simply by being Darth Vader's daughter shows that people are pretty unforgiving no matter what good you've done. Kylo may be redeemed in the eyes of those who love him but the rest of the galaxy are a different matter.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by snufkin on Sat 22 Apr - 6:31

@ISeeAnIsland - John Dean?

I would agree that the "Kylo is going to get punished and that will prevent any kind of happy ending with Rey" mindset is up there with the expectation that Luke will be the central hero with a perfect moral compass and that Rey will be a stereotypical Strong Female Character who assimilates into the Old Boy's Club. Dude's gonna be the inside man who takes Snoke down hard because he got inside access to the operation and his DS Wizard School. Or to put it in movie terms, he's like P**sy Galore in Goldfinger or Mystique in The Incredibles. It's just that typically this type of character is female, not male. Or for a site that has a lot of active lawyer members, they'd probably frame things in terms of Restorative Justice. He's already spent his life as an outcast, not really seeing how further ostracization helps the character evolve/find closure.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Saracene on Sat 22 Apr - 6:38

I don't think that Kylo is going to get punished, as such, but I do think that he's shut out of coming back to the regular society. I don't think that he can be compared to a character like Mystique in The Incredibles since, if I remember right, she was not actually responsible for any bloodshed.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Kessel on Sat 22 Apr - 6:41

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I don't really get where the whole "Kylo is going to need to be punished" thing comes from. Dude is probably going to be instrumental in saving the whole galaxy. If we need a real life parallel, here in the US, we've got a handful of politicians who are rumored to be in the process of flipping on Trump in exchange for immunity. Assuming that Kylo helps to take down Snoke like we're all expecting, I'd think that would buy him immunity in a GFFA legal system, or at the very least, some semblance of leniency.
@ISeeAnIsland

Yeah, any redemption storyline would likely include Kylo making a huge contribution and/or sacrifice to help the Resistance, Rey, and Luke against the FO. So yes, it would be rather strange if he helped them and then faced trial and potential life imprisonment/execution afterwards. What a bizarre and terrible message that would send: no matter what you do to atone for your transgressions, you still must face full retribution. No thanks. The only way I could see Kylo being redeemed and still ending up a wanted criminal by the Resistance is if he helped them from afar and only a few people knew about it like Rey, Luke, or Leia. I don't think Kylo will stay with the FO, but I don't think he'll join the Resistance. He has his own goals and I think he'll have his own "side."

Regardless of anything that happens, I don't see him being imprisoned at the end of IX; that is such a mundane and anticlimactic (not to mention sad) ending. At worst, I could see him going into exile for some time, in some way...
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Saracene on Sat 22 Apr - 6:56

@Kessel wrote:Regardless of anything that happens, I don't see him being imprisoned at the end of IX; that is such a mundane and anticlimactic (not to mention sad) ending. At worst, I could see him going into exile for some time, in some way...
@Kessel

Epic series don't generally end with a courtroom scene, so I think Kylo is safe in that regard.

I guess when you get down to it, it's Han's murder that's the sticking point in the audience's eyes, not whatever Kylo has done while serving under Snoke.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Helix on Sat 22 Apr - 7:12

I could see TLJ being the MGS2 of the series. To elaborate: MGS2 shook up the franchise by having a controversial protag ( mostly because he's a 'pretty boy' ) and the old hero as a mentor figure, along with a complex and deep plot exploring the themes of the weight of legacy, hope, free will and being able to come to your own conclusions about things. There's a lot of long talks about this interspersed in the game and gamers at the time wanted 'super action man many hard stealth' shoot game. They managed to completely miss the brilliance of the story and how it plays the player and many of the things that happened in the game's version of society have come true today. It's 'weird', very weird, but brilliant. It's a deconstruction of linear games and those types of fans who idolize these tough game heroes ( like Solid Snake himself). It's more fondly looked upon by some for those reasons today and I could see TLJ having the same effect. Brilliant, but possibly to odd for the core audience at first.

It also plays with that expectation of having that older hero be the front and center you start as him but the game shifts to the new protag later on. The title screen even does, it starts as Snake and after you beat the game it becomes Raiden. This was his story all along.

I keep adding to this because I feel a lot of the themes in MGS 2 may also be in TLJ and seem very fitting:

On Legacy, I always liked this quote:

Spoiler:
'What is our legacy if we cannot pass the torch? Proof of our existence - a mark of some sort. When the torch is passed on from parent to child... it extends beyond DNA; information is imparted as well. All I want is to be remembered. By other people, by history. The Patriots are trying to protect their power, their own interests, by controlling the digital flow of information. I want my memory, my existence to remain. Unlike an intron of history, I will be remembered as an exon. That will be my legacy, my mark on history'

There's also some incredible write-ups about it:

http://metagearsolid.org/reports_legacyofmgs2_1.html

http://metagearsolid.org/reports_legacyofmgs2_2.html

'Here a very clear connection is made between events that occur in the game, and the predicted experience of the player. This is very important.' Will reactions to Luke from Rey mirror the audience?

'If we are told that we’re just pawns in a game, would players still imbue themselves with a false sense of heroism?' Kinda makes me think back to Kylo.

'Just as Raiden is encouraged to start a new life, we’re encouraged to start the game again. It’s a form of justice: those who don’t bother thinking won’t be satisfied with what they find.'


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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 22 Apr - 7:15

@Saracene wrote:I don't think that Kylo is going to get punished, as such, but I do think that he's shut out of coming back to the regular society. I don't think that he can be compared to a character like Mystique in The Incredibles since, if I remember right, she was not actually responsible for any bloodshed.
@Saracene
I guess I just wonder what "regular society" even would be for someone like Kylo or Rey or Luke. Barring perhaps Leia (and not entirely, as was fleshed out in Bloodline), strong Force Sensitives have never really seemed to fit in with the greater population. They weren't really the people/creatures you saw living out simple city lives in time of the PT and they were all dead or in hiding by the OT. There is a natural element of isolation that comes with being Force Sensitive. It's almost a sense of being a higher being (higher in the spiritual sense, in being connected to something greater than others who are less affiliated can really understand). Luke didn't exactly spend his time pre-massacre living a regular life, he was researching Jedi lore and travelling and training his nephew in the Force. Han and Leia sent Ben away because they were afraid they couldn't connect to his Force Sensitivity on the right level ("too much Vader in him"). Rey too, though she didn't know it at the time. Also Yoda, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Anakin, Ashoka. The list goes on. Even Kanan and Ezra (and Maul) from Rebels have their own connection that none of the non-Force Sensitive characters are really privy to. There is a deeper tie between individuals who have a link to the Force.

I just don't know if Kylo has ever really been a part of regular society or if he would have been had he never fallen. He probably would have been like Luke, another contemplative monk, like the majority of Force Sensitives we've met in the canon. Instead he fell and became an angry, emotional cosplayer (as @Snufkin would say) who confesses to helmets. Neither would have really fit in with regular society, be it Jedi or dark sider. They are opposites, but they do have things in common.

In the ST time we're also dealing with a lack of Force Sensitive individuals. There just aren't many left, and those who do manage to figure out a way to survive against the odds and find balance... how can they not stick it out together regardless of past mistakes? It all just seems bigger than that, you know? Doesn't separation or exile seem like another isolating punishment no matter how you slice it? It seems unsatisfying and feels pretty petty. And what's the point? Did Han die only for his son to realize the errors of his ways, take up arms with the uncle he once betrayed and the girl who scarred him, confront the dark sider who has been manipulating him since he was in the womb and then get kicked to the curb and exiled because IRL he would be put on trial for murder?

It's not that I don't believe in consequences either. In fact, I don't say this often because I know it's looked upon as another punishment, but I honestly would have no problem with Kylo to losing his Force Sensitivity. It would be a cool twist, imo.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Saracene on Sat 22 Apr - 7:40

@FrolickingFizzgig Good point about the Force sensitives being different and somewhat separate to the rest of the population. But in the PT, at least, they were still a part of the society, moved in the world and took an active role in it. If Luke was aiming to rebuild the order, I don't think that the endgame for him would be total isolation on some island, either. It's just that he was still taking baby steps when the disaster struck.

As for Kylo's fate, even setting aside the real life morality, I'm just stuck when I try to think of an example of a story where a character murders his (good guy) father and then gets together with a girl of his dreams. Stories might not always adhere to real life, but they still tend to have consequences, characters get punished for what they do and even nice people who don't deserve it have tragic things happen to them.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 22 Apr - 9:24

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
It's not that I don't believe in consequences either. In fact, I don't say this often because I know it's looked upon as another punishment, but I honestly would have no problem with Kylo to losing his Force Sensitivity. It would be a cool twist, imo.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Yes, I've seen this as a possibility for some time now - especially as there's a Star Wars precedent in Ulic Qel-Droma (who killed his brother, as it happens).

It's also an interesting possibility for Reylo: assuming they really do have some kind of a Force bond going on, I could see the supernatural Force bond giving way to the genuine love bond of "mere mortals". Kind of like those Tolkien's elves who give up their immortality for a human love.

As for what happens to Kylo, I'm not worried because I'm sure the narrative will "purge" him one way or another; he will prove his true worth somehow, he'll go through his baptism by fire, he'll make sacrifices and what emerges is going to be the "real" Ben. As this is the realm of fairytales, what matters is not that he gets a fitting punishment as ruled by a court of law (which is what a lot of fans seem to be expecting) but that the story transforms him into a new person in the audience's eyes so that they want him to live. And what is most important is that the audience is made to want what the protagonist wants.

Looking at Jane Eyre once again, Rochester has been purged in literal fire, humbled, diminished. He has lost all hope and it's genuinely moving when Jane comes back to him after all. But ultimately this is Jane's story, so it's Jane who is rewarded by getting her heart's desire. It doesn't matter that Rochester has been maimed and diminished because that makes him more dear to her; that shows that her heart's desire is pure. Jane gets her true beloved, the purged version.

I expect Kylo (or Ben, rather) to show heroism in this story, but as he's not the protagonist, I expect him to be "purged", maimed, sacrificed, diminished in some manner - but here's the catch: I don't expect it as a "punishment". If the story needs to mete out punishment in order to satisfy the audience, it has failed in engaging the audience's sympathies. The audience needs to experience the purity of Rey's feelings: if such a love story succeeds in engaging the audience's sympathies, the audience will feel Rey's growing understanding and compassion, they will feel Rey's desire, her fear of loss and her relief when she gets to embrace her purged beloved. That is, indeed, a tall order for a story where the "Rochester" is a patricide. But that's what makes the stakes so high and the potential pay-off so epic.

In the same vein, you've got to consider that if Rey comes to care deeply about Kylo, whatever punishment happens to him is a punishment to her as well. If he grows from a villain into a romantic anti-hero and finally dies in a splendid act of self-sacrifice, that makes him the story's tragic hero - the focus of the pathos. Likewise, a tragic story of separation and exile could be a fitting conclusion if the story were told from Kylo's point of view. The anti-hero has grown into a good man, and realises he must renounce happiness and atone for what he's done.

All fine and dandy. But as the protagonist isn't Kylo, but Rey, where do these scenarios leave her? She finds a belonging, a supernaturally strong bond, and then what? She's punished for being good by yet another abandonment in her life? I can't be 100% sure that this story isn't going to have a tragic ending, of course, but the biggest problem I see with scenarios that give Kylo in particular a tragic ending is that they steal Rey's thunder. What's clear is that Kylo isn't getting a last-minute redemption à la Vader. So are we doing a protagonist switcheroo here, with the antagonist's growth into a tragic hero as the story's real emotional focus?

Or are we doing a "Jane Eyre" or a "Beauty and the Beast" scenario where the focus remains on the heroine and her emotional growth?
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sat 22 Apr - 9:48

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
It's not that I don't believe in consequences either. In fact, I don't say this often because I know it's looked upon as another punishment, but I honestly would have no problem with Kylo to losing his Force Sensitivity. It would be a cool twist, imo.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Yes, I've seen this as a possibility for some time now - especially as there's a Star Wars precedent in Ulic Qel-Droma (who killed his brother, as it happens).

It's also an interesting possibility for Reylo: assuming they really do have some kind of a Force bond going on, I could see the supernatural Force bond giving way to the genuine love bond of "mere mortals". Kind of like those Tolkien's elves who give up their immortality for a human love.

As for what happens to Kylo, I'm not worried because I'm sure the narrative will "purge" him one way or another; he will prove his true worth somehow, he'll go through his baptism by fire, he'll make sacrifices and what emerges is going to be the "real" Ben. As this is the realm of fairytales, what matters is not that he gets a fitting punishment as ruled by a court of law (which is what a lot of fans seem to be expecting) but that the story transforms him into a new person in the audience's eyes so that they want him to live. And what is most important is that the audience is made to want what the protagonist wants.

Looking at Jane Eyre once again, Rochester has been purged in literal fire, humbled, diminished. He has lost all hope and it's genuinely moving when Jane comes back to him after all. But ultimately this is Jane's story, so it's Jane who is rewarded by getting her heart's desire. It doesn't matter that Rochester has been maimed and diminished because that makes him more dear to her; that shows that her heart's desire is pure. Jane gets her true beloved, the purged version.

I expect Kylo (or Ben, rather) to show heroism in this story, but as he's not the protagonist, I expect him to be "purged", maimed, sacrificed, diminished in some manner - but here's the catch: I don't expect it as a "punishment". If the story needs to mete out punishment in order to satisfy the audience, it has failed in engaging the audience's sympathies. The audience needs to experience the purity of Rey's feelings: if such a love story succeeds in engaging the audience's sympathies, the audience will feel Rey's growing understanding and compassion, they will feel Rey's desire, her fear of loss and her relief when she gets to embrace her purged beloved. That is, indeed, a tall order for a story where the "Rochester" is a patricide. But that's what makes the stakes so high and the potential pay-off so epic.

In the same vein, you've got to consider that if Rey comes to care deeply about Kylo, whatever punishment happens to him is a punishment to her as well. If he grows from a villain into a romantic anti-hero and finally dies in a splendid act of self-sacrifice, that makes him the story's tragic hero - the focus of the pathos. Likewise, a tragic story of separation and exile could be a fitting conclusion if the story were told from Kylo's point of view. The anti-hero has grown into a good man, and realises he must renounce happiness and atone for what he's done.

All fine and dandy. But as the protagonist isn't Kylo, but Rey, where do these scenarios leave her? She finds a belonging, a supernaturally strong bond, and then what? She's punished for being good by yet another abandonment in her life? I can't be 100% sure that this story isn't going to have a tragic ending, of course, but the biggest problem I see with scenarios that give Kylo in particular a tragic ending is that they steal Rey's thunder. What's clear is that Kylo isn't getting a last-minute redemption à la Vader. So are we doing a protagonist switcheroo here, with the antagonist's growth into a tragic hero as the story's real emotional focus?

Or are we doing a "Jane Eyre" or a "Beauty and the Beast" scenario where the focus remains on the heroine and her emotional growth?
@Darth Dingbat

I am on the same page as you on the matter. To point out as well, that the end of OT was natural in  a sense that old Vader (aka father) dies and Luke (aka son i.e. the next generation) lives on.
The antagonist and the protagonist of ST are the young man and  young woman. They're pretty much on the same level of growing/reaching maturity. Having also in mind some sort of the force bond (excuse me PH if I used the wrong term) aka "strange connection" has already been confirmed - their paths would clearly influenced strongly each others.
Unless, they take a "Titanic" route of a tragic end - which I don't see, because the dynamics between Rose & Jack was completely different in a sense of development and characterization: Rose was trapped, Jack freed her with his love on a symbolic level.


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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 22 Apr - 9:56

And also Titanic was inspired by true events; James Cameron used the fictional Jack and Rose to show the tragedy of a horrendous waste of life that could so easily have been avoided. Whereas Star Wars has always been a 'fairytale', and hopefully this time around we'll truly get a happy ending.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by ZioRen on Sat 22 Apr - 10:25

I've been thinking about Luke, and I wonder if what was possibly questionable about him wasn't so much what he did as what he didn't do. It seems like Luke and Kylo were traveling around finding old knowledge and such. What if they stumbled across something or some knowledge in particular that was damning toward the Jedi order? Maybe Luke chose to cover it up or hide it at first, maybe for the "greater good", which was a choice Ben profoundly disagreed with. Add that to the discovery that Vader is his grandfather and nobody told him or possibly even lied to him about it, and it sounds like a recipe for disaster and why he'd turn on Luke.

And maybe in the aftermath of everything, Luke is left jaded with the Jedi Order as he knew it.

This is just really late at night theorizing based on nothing much, though. Laughing
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Saracene on Sat 22 Apr - 10:29

@Darth Dingbat wrote:In the same vein, you've got to consider that if Rey comes to care deeply about Kylo, whatever punishment happens to him is a punishment to her as well. If he grows from a villain into a romantic anti-hero and finally dies in a splendid act of self-sacrifice, that makes him the story's tragic hero - the focus of the pathos. Likewise, a tragic story of separation and exile could be a fitting conclusion if the story were told from Kylo's point of view. The anti-hero has grown into a good man, and realises he must renounce happiness and atone for what he's done.
@Darth Dingbat

I don't know if I agree though that Rey getting separated from Kylo is somehow a "punishment" for her. Was it a punishment for Luke when he lost his father mere minutes after he returned to the light? Good characters often get sad or bittersweet endings, but most of the time they're just something that flows naturally from the circumstances. Sometimes a person you fall in love with is a person you can't realistically be with.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 22 Apr - 10:32

I think...
Whether Reylo happens or not, too many people think at the moment Kylo doesn't deserve Rey because she's 'too good' for him.
But Rey may turn out very different in the next two movies.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Reynak on Sat 22 Apr - 10:40

@Saracene wrote:Re: Rey leaving with Kylo, she'd be doing more than saying goodbye to her friends, she'd be basically saying hello to a life of social isolation because her boyfriend is a criminal facing prison or execution if he's ever recognised and caught.

I guess it's a romantic notion that two people can be a world to each other, but it's not the one I subscribe to. IMO you need more people and purpose in your life than your significant other.
@Saracene

What I said is far from romantic, I just pointed out that at the moment Rey has nothing to lose if she goes anywhere else with anyone she chooses. She has no roots or family to forsake and only one friend she spent very little time with. We still don't know what will happen with Kylo in the end.

I have never said that two people can be everything to each other either, what I said is that when circumstances make us choose, most of us would choose our partner and family over a friend, any friend. Many people build a life together and this may mean moving to a different city where you can't see your family and friends every day and people do this to study, start a new business and also to live with the person they choose. If you are unable to do that you won't grow, you'll be stuck like Rey was in Jakku. One has to leave the nest one day or another, to live on your own or with the person you choose. And Rey doesn't even have a nest or a family to leave behind.

I don't think you should stay in your town for ever and don't go to university because you will miss your friends. Leaving your town to start a family somewhere else or even just to live with someone you love for as long as you want to is as good a reason as any to move on. You have to take what you want in life and love may not last for ever, romantic love never does but what a ride it is while it lasts. Sometimes it is also worth the time and effort to buid it up and let it evolve into something meaniful and deep that lasts as long as the couple lives. This is not a tale, it happens. Also, the love to your kids is forever. That is the gretest love possible. Friendship can't compare to parental love. Han's forgiveness in death represents this kind of love.

What amazes me is how much people highlight the importance of Finn in Rey's life. They live and adventure together and they should be together for ever? What if she doesn't want to be part of the Resistance? Does she have to follow him in the life he chooses? Does he have to follow her if she decides to be a jedi? In fact if she becomes a jedi she won't be able to have attachments, and this includes Finn as a friend. The jedi path is the one of real renounce and not loving Kylo or any other man, including Finn, because she wants a FAMILY. TFA made this clear. The little scavenger never said she wanted friends or adventure,or becoming part of the Resistance and be a hero. She just wanted someone to come back for her. These words are foreshadowing IMO. Someone will come back for her, this is how story telling works.

Kylo claimed he won't be seduced and so he will. Rey wants someone to come back for her and someone will, the question is how his seduction will play out and who will come back for Rey.

The movie has played with Rey's words, making us wonder if she will recover her family, although if she finds them it will always be a disappointmet, as they never came back. They real point is that no one came back for her. Maz pointed out this ship has already sailed, her family won't come back... but someone still could. Who? Luke, Finn or Kylo?

I think this is what they are playing with. TFA showed us Finn coming to her rescue and how important that was for her. She said "you came back for me" or something like that, I can't remenber the exact words. Then she decided to continue her heroine journey and found Luke. So many people thought Finn or Luke were that someone who still could come back, " with her help", as the novelization points out.

Why is this so importnat? Because it is her destiny. For other characters it wouldn't be so important but for her the word family and someone who will come back is essential. I think this person is going to be Kylo. Once I paid close attention to Maz's words I thought it was Kylo and what we have seen of TLJ points in the same direction. There will be a rule of three here, her destiny will be linked to someone, Maz's words are meant to be prophetic and foreshadow her destiny. This is not RL but a fairy tale, although dark, so one of these thee men will be fundamentally linked to her and my bet is on Kylo/Ben. Han could have been another option as a father figure but she met him before her call to adventure. When Maz's words appear is important, this matters in a fairy tale or any story. After Maz's words she meets Kylo, so the words are referred to him.

The mention of Light refers to Kylo/ Ben too. Maz tells Rey to look for the Light and follow it and there's a person pulled to the Light like a moth to the flame. The same person that leaves the light inside his ship to go down to the darkness in Jakku, whom LST reminds he doesn't belong in the DS, whose mother knows still has Light in him. Rey is told to follow the Light, this will be her way to the Force but also to Kylo, who is trapped in Darkness but who is paradoxically associated with the Light several times in the movie.

We can't forget SW is a fairy tale and not a realistic drama, so Kylo is not another guy she may find attractive. Of course romantic love shouldn't rule a person's life. There are many important things to consider when taking choices in our lives. We may not even believe in the traditional notion of love and family ourselves, but this is not the point. I'm not a romantic myself and never have been in RL but I know a fictional romance when I see it and this one is meant to be classic, epic and memorable. So she won't consider her future career or the city she'd like to live in in order to choose Kylo or not. And she won't leave him because everyone despises and hates him or because there's a price on his head and it wouldn't be convenient for her to live with him in such unfavourable circumstances.

Atonement is mandatory, of course. She won't have him if he does nothing to deserve it but mundane considerations don't apply in fairy tales. That belongs to RL and perhaps this is why we enjoy fairy tales, they work in a different way. I think that only duty and the greater good will keep them apart, but never other people, or reasonable, practical or logistic reasons.

Of course life is not like a fairy tale, this what I say to my niece and my kids, that romantic love comes and goes away, sometimes evolves into something else and then you have a chance that love+commitmet lasts a lifetime, if this is what you wish. That you should never relegate your career to romantic love and should ensure economoc independence for you, that emotional dependence is nocive. All this is true, but I still love fairy tales and SW is a fairy tale in a galaxy far away. Perhaps I am a romantic after all, LOL.

Does this mean I think they will have a happy ending? Not necessarily. Not every tale has a happy ending. Think of Andersen's tales. What I think is that mundane considerations won't apply in their story and, although something grand may separate them (he or she may make a heroic sacrifice or take a selfless choice that separates them, self-interest won't play a role in their decission.


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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by MoonFyre on Sat 22 Apr - 10:42

@Kessel wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:I don't really get where the whole "Kylo is going to need to be punished" thing comes from. Dude is probably going to be instrumental in saving the whole galaxy. If we need a real life parallel, here in the US, we've got a handful of politicians who are rumored to be in the process of flipping on Trump in exchange for immunity. Assuming that Kylo helps to take down Snoke like we're all expecting, I'd think that would buy him immunity in a GFFA legal system, or at the very least, some semblance of leniency.
@ISeeAnIsland

Yeah, any redemption storyline would likely include Kylo making a huge contribution and/or sacrifice to help the Resistance, Rey, and Luke against the FO. So yes, it would be rather strange if he helped them and then faced trial and potential life imprisonment/execution afterwards. What a bizarre and terrible message that would send: no matter what you do to atone for your transgressions, you still must face full retribution. No thanks. The only way I could see Kylo being redeemed and still ending up a wanted criminal by the Resistance is if he helped them from afar and only a few people knew about it like Rey, Luke, or Leia.  I don't think Kylo will stay with the FO, but I don't think he'll join the Resistance. He has his own goals and I think he'll have his own "side."

Regardless of anything that happens, I don't see him being imprisoned at the end of IX; that is such a mundane and anticlimactic (not to mention sad) ending. At worst, I could see him going into exile for some time, in some way...
@Kessel

I agree! After his redemption, Kylo ending up in a galactic prison would be underwhelming. A total waste. What good is a prisoner in a cell when he could atone and do something good for the galaxy? If Kylo ever ends up in prison, I hope Rey breaks him out.

Exile sounds fitting, and it opens a lot of possibilities for the next trilogy. It's not happy-sappy, but not hopeless either. It’ll be like Kenshin Himura with force abilities, who will dedicate the rest of his life in helping others and keeping peace. Rey joining him will be the bonus.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 22 Apr - 10:55

@Saracene wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:In the same vein, you've got to consider that if Rey comes to care deeply about Kylo, whatever punishment happens to him is a punishment to her as well. If he grows from a villain into a romantic anti-hero and finally dies in a splendid act of self-sacrifice, that makes him the story's tragic hero - the focus of the pathos. Likewise, a tragic story of separation and exile could be a fitting conclusion if the story were told from Kylo's point of view. The anti-hero has grown into a good man, and realises he must renounce happiness and atone for what he's done.
@Darth Dingbat

I don't know if I agree though that Rey getting separated from Kylo is somehow a "punishment" for her. Was it a punishment for Luke when he lost his father mere minutes after he returned to the light? Good characters often get sad or bittersweet endings, but most of the time they're just something that flows naturally from the circumstances. Sometimes a person you fall in love with is a person you can't realistically be with.
@Saracene

They were completely different dynamics, though. And Rey's character development started out with a need for "belonging" in a way that Luke's didn't. Had they gone with the original characterisation of Kira as a hot-headed bad*** who longs for adventure, that longing for belonging wouldn't have had the same urgency. I also suspect other fans would have been a lot less protective her, a lot less prone to infantilise her.

Most importantly, Luke did get what he wanted in the end: his father redeemed, even if he got him back for a mere instant. I'm assuming Kylo's story isn't building up to a last-minute redemption in the same way.

"Sometimes a person you fall in love with is a person you can't realistically be with"... sure, and there are plenty of classic stories that reflect that. But I guess it all boils down to what this story is about, how optimistic it's meant to be, and also the sheer amount of ground that needs to be covered in the space of two films for this story to work at all.

My point is, there are ways to make Kylo's transformation all about Kylo's own tragedy - concurrent with, but still separate from, Rey's own journey - and there are ways to weave Kylo's transformation into Rey's heroine's journey.

In the latter case, I find it quite hard to imagine a satisfying conclusion to Rey's journey where the girl who started out with less than nothing ends with a pang of loss.

But of course I could be wrong and the story is meant to end on a sad note after all. That's why this particular story is so intriguing, the uncertainty of it all, the seeming impossibility of certain outcomes.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 22 Apr - 10:57

To add: that seeming impossibility of a happy ending is going to work to good effect if/when Kylo is successfully transformed in the audience's eyes and they want him to live, but can't see how it could happen.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Saracene on Sat 22 Apr - 11:04

I guess right now it's kinda easy to imagine the relationship with Kylo as the end-all-be-all thing for Rey, because, other than her wish for belonging, her motivations and desires are so limited and vague, and it's unclear what direction the story will take as far as the Force/Jedi stuff is concerned. That could change with the next movie in a major way though.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 22 Apr - 11:10

@Reynak wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Re: Rey leaving with Kylo, she'd be doing more than saying goodbye to her friends, she'd be basically saying hello to a life of social isolation because her boyfriend is a criminal facing prison or execution if he's ever recognised and caught.

I guess it's a romantic notion that two people can be a world to each other, but it's not the one I subscribe to. IMO you need more people and purpose in your life than your significant other.
@Saracene

What I said is far from romantic, I just pointed out that at the moment Rey has nothing to lose if she goes anywhere else with anyone she chooses. She has no roots or family to forsake and only one friend she spent very little time with. We still don't know what will happen with Kylo in the end.

I have never said that two people can be everything to each other either, what I said is that when circumstances make us choose, most of us would choose our partner and family over a friend, any friend. Many people build a life together and this may mean moving to a different city where you can't see your family and friends every day and people do this to this to study, start a new business and also to live with the person they choose. If you are unable to do that you won't grow, you'll be stuck like Rey was in Jakku. One has to leave the nest one day or another, to live on your own or with the person you choose. And Rey doesn't even have a nest or a family to leave behind.

I don't think you should stay in your town for ever and don't go to university because you will miss your friends. Leaving your town to start a family somewhere else or even just to live with someone you love for as long as you want to is as good a reason as any to move on. You have to take what you want in life and love may not last for ever, romantic love never does but what a ride it is while it lasts. Sometimes it is also worth the time and effort to buid it up and let it evolve into something meaniful and deep that lasts as long as the couple lives. This is not a tale, it happens. Also, the love to your kids is forever. That is the gretest love possible. Friendship can't compare to parental love. Han's forgiveness in death represents this kind of love.

What amazes me is how much people highlight the importance of Finn in Rey's life. They live and adventure together and they should be together for ever? What if she doesn't want to be part of the Resistance? Does she have to follow him in the life he chooses? Does he have to follow her if she decides to be a jedi? In fact if she becomes a jedi she won't be able to have attachments, and this includes Finn as a friend. The jedi path is the one of real renounce and not loving Kylo or any other man, including Finn, because she wants a FAMILY. TFA made this clear. The little scavenger never said she wanted friends or adventure,or becoming part of the Resistance and be a hero. She just wanted someone to come back for her. These words are foreshadowing IMO. Someone will come back for her, this is how story telling works.

Kylo claimed he won't be seduced and so he will. Rey wants someone to come back for her and someone will, the question is how his seduction will play out and who will come back for Rey.

The movie has played with Rey's words, making us wonder if she will recover her family, although if she finds them it will always be a disappointmet, as they never came back. They real point is that no one came back for her. Maz pointed out this ship has already sailed, her family won't come back... but someone still could. Who? Luke, Finn or Kylo?

I think this is what they are playing with. TFA showed us Finn coming to her rescue and how important that was for her. She said "you came back for me" or something like that, I can't remenber the exact words. Then she decided to continue her heroine journey and found Luke. So many people thought Finn or Luke were that someone who still could come back, " with her help", as the novelization points out.

Why is this so importnat? Because it is her destiny. For other characters it wouldn't be so important but for her the word family and someone who will come back is essential. I think this person is going to be Kylo. Once I paid close attention to Maz's words I thought it was Kylo and what we have seen of TLJ points in the same direction. There will be a rule of three here, her destiny will be linked to someone, Maz's words are meant to be prophetic and foreshadow her destiny. This is not RL but a fairy tale, although dark, so one of these thee men will be fundamentally linked to her and my bet is on Kylo/Ben. Han could have been another option as a father figure but she met him before her call to adventure. When Maz's words appear is important, this matters in a fairy tale or any story. After Maz's words she meets Kylo, so the words are referred to him.

The mention of Light refers to Kylo/ Ben too. Maz tells Rey to look for the Light and follow it and there's a person pulled to the Light like a moth to the flame. The same person that leaves the light inside his ship to go down to the darkness in Jakku, whom LST reminds he doesn't belong in the DS, whose mother knows still has Light in him. Rey is told to follow the Light, this will be her way to the Force but also to Kylo, who is trapped in Darkness but who is paradoxically associated with the Light several times in the movie.

We can't forget SW is a fairy tale and not a realistic drama, so Kylo is not another guy she may find attractive. Of course romantic love shouldn't rule a person's life. There are many important things to consider when taking choices in our lives. We may not even believe in the traditional notion of love and family ourselves, but this is not the point. I'm not a romantic myself and never have been in RL but I know a fictional romance when I see it and this one is meant to be classic, epic and memorable. So she won't consider her future career or the city she'd like to live in in order to choose Kylo or not. And she won't leave him because everyone despises and hates him or because there's a price on his head and loving him anyway is not convenient for her under to live with him in unfavourable circumstances.

Atonement is mandatory, of course. She won't have him if he does nothing to deserve it but mundane considerations don't apply in fairy tales. That belongs to RL and perhaps this is why we enjoy fairy tales, they work in a different way. I think that only duty and the greater good will keep them apart, but never other people or reasonable, practical or logistic reasons.

Of course life is not like a fairy tale, this what I say to my niece and my kids, that romantic love comes and goes away, sometimes evolves into something else and then you have a chance that love+commitmet lasts a lifetime, if this is what you wish. That you should never relegate your career to romantic love and should ensure economoc independence for you, that emotional dependence is nocive. All this is true, but I still love fairy tales and SW is a fairy tale in a galaxy far away. Perhaps I am a romantic after all, LOL.

Does this mean I think they will have a happy ending? Not necessarily. Not every tale has a happy ending. Think of Andersen's tales. What I think is that mundane considerations won't apply in their story and something grand may separate them, he or she may make a heroic sacrifice or take sselfless choice that separates them, but personal benefits won't play a role in their decission.
@Reynak

I agree on everything, but especially on the bolded. Well said.

I've always been fond of saying that romantic love is a story we humans like to tell ourselves.

That's why romance in its absolute purest form is something to be experienced through fiction. It doesn't go hand in hand with real life, and applying the rules of realism to it robs the fiction of its romance as well.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 22 Apr - 11:16

@Saracene wrote:I guess right now it's kinda easy to imagine the relationship with Kylo as the end-all-be-all thing for Rey, because, other than her wish for belonging, her motivations and desires are so limited and vague, and it's unclear what direction the story will take as far as the Force/Jedi stuff is concerned. That could change with the next movie in a major way though.
@Saracene

Certainly, the story could even take a sharp turn in TLJ in a way that makes the set-up of TFA quite pointless. For the time being, though, we can only speculate on what we know.

I'm also not imagining Kylo and romance to be the "be-all and end-all" of things for Rey. The story will ultimately be more about defeating evil than about romance. But in trying to imagine possibilities where defeating evil, Kylo's transformation, and romance all centre on Rey as the protagonist, I confess at this point I find it rather hard to imagine a downer of an ending that doesn't make this trilogy ultimately The Tragedy of Ben Solo, as opposed to The Journey of Rey, the Heroine.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Saracene on Sat 22 Apr - 11:28

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I guess right now it's kinda easy to imagine the relationship with Kylo as the end-all-be-all thing for Rey, because, other than her wish for belonging, her motivations and desires are so limited and vague, and it's unclear what direction the story will take as far as the Force/Jedi stuff is concerned. That could change with the next movie in a major way though.
@Saracene

Certainly, the story could even take a sharp turn in TLJ in a way that makes the set-up of TFA quite pointless. For the time being, though, we can only speculate on what we know.

I'm also not imagining Kylo and romance to be the "be-all and end-all" of things for Rey. The story will ultimately be more about defeating evil than about romance. But in trying to imagine possibilities where defeating evil, Kylo's transformation, and romance all centre on Rey as the protagonist, I confess at this point I find it rather hard to imagine a downer of an ending that doesn't make this trilogy ultimately The Tragedy of Kylo Ren, as opposed to The Journey of Rey, the Heroine.
@Darth Dingbat

When I say "be-all and end-all" I mean the idea that Rey's ultimate fate is to be with Kylo, and love for him determining her future. Rather than having her future defined more by her powers, and whatever the Jedi order might morph into. Which is not something that concerns her much at the present, but might in the next movie. Are her powers going to be important to her beyond the means of defeating evil? Is she going to play an important role in how the Jedi/whatever go on, after Snoke is defeated? That sort of thing. I mean, Jane Eyre is one thing, it's a small personal story on a small scale. Reader I married him is a fine ending. SW is an epic tale with galaxy-wide stakes. Once she defeats evil, the heroine retires into marriage is not much of an epic ending.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Darth Dingbat on Sat 22 Apr - 11:36

@Saracene wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I guess right now it's kinda easy to imagine the relationship with Kylo as the end-all-be-all thing for Rey, because, other than her wish for belonging, her motivations and desires are so limited and vague, and it's unclear what direction the story will take as far as the Force/Jedi stuff is concerned. That could change with the next movie in a major way though.
@Saracene

Certainly, the story could even take a sharp turn in TLJ in a way that makes the set-up of TFA quite pointless. For the time being, though, we can only speculate on what we know.

I'm also not imagining Kylo and romance to be the "be-all and end-all" of things for Rey. The story will ultimately be more about defeating evil than about romance. But in trying to imagine possibilities where defeating evil, Kylo's transformation, and romance all centre on Rey as the protagonist, I confess at this point I find it rather hard to imagine a downer of an ending that doesn't make this trilogy ultimately The Tragedy of Kylo Ren, as opposed to The Journey of Rey, the Heroine.
@Darth Dingbat

When I say "be-all and end-all" I mean the idea that Rey's ultimate fate is to be with Kylo, and love for him determining her future. Rather than having her future defined more by her powers, and whatever the Jedi order might morph into. Which is not something that concerns her much at the present, but might in the next movie. Are her powers going to be important to her beyond the means of defeating evil? Is she going to play an important role in how the Jedi/whatever go on, after Snoke is defeated? That sort of thing.
@Saracene

I don't know... I feel like making that into a choice - is her ultimate fate to be with Kylo, or to play an important role in something going forward? - is falling into the age-old trap that heroines cease to have interesting lives as soon as they get married.

Why not both? Leia didn't have to choose. And you could argue that falling in love diminished the role Leia (as well as Han) was playing in the OT, but the OT wasn't Leia's heroine's journey, so Rey's story is going to play out differently no matter what.

But we'll see. I honestly can't guess who's going to die, who's going into exile, who's going to be happy and who isn't. I'm just trying to make an educated guess on the nature of Rey's journey. Is it going to be a journey of coming-of-age, or a journey of loss?


ETA: Sorry, didn't see your edit until now. But that the question - why would Rey be "retiring into marriage"?
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Reynak on Sat 22 Apr - 11:46

I think "romantic" love does exist and most people experience it in their lifetime but it isn't all light and rainbows. Far from it, if you think of it, it's damn scary although while you're living your great love story you wouldn't change for anything. But it's darn exhausting so there's a reason for it to have a date of expiry, LOL.  After about two years it either evolves or fades away.

Movies and books let us live experieces again, vicariously, from the safety of our seats and this way we can rememorate how it felt to be madly in love. Everybody can relate to a love story because we once were, still are or hope we will be like the protagonist for some time, and while it lasts,lasted or will last, it will put butterflies in your stomach, make us smile like fools and feel unique in another person's eyes. The "dark" side of the coin is that it will probably make you suffer too like a soul in Purgatory and it may eventually disappoint you. But there's no light without shadows.

At the cinema dudebros enjoy war, danger and risk, for instance. Why is it so wrong for women to enjoy a damn risky romance with a sexy guy who seems as delectable as he is dangerous? Someone intense and passionate who leaves reason behind and is capable of the best as well as the worst?

Does it sound scary? More scary than war and what the protagonist does in action flicks? I think not, in both cases people are just living an adventure without taking any risks. this is what daydreaming is for, this is what fiction is for. The problem starts when you are unable to separate fantasy from reality. Nobody watches SW looking for realism. The story has to be engaging and convincing and make people dream.


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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Saracene on Sat 22 Apr - 11:48

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I don't know... I feel like making that into a choice - is her ultimate fate to be with Kylo, or to play an important role in something going forward? - is falling into the age-old trap that heroines cease to have interesting lives as soon as they get married.

Why not both? Leia didn't have to choose. And you could argue that falling in love diminished the role Leia (as well as Han) was playing in the OT, but the OT wasn't Leia's heroine's journey, so Rey's story is going to play out differently no matter what.

But we'll see. I honestly can't guess who's going to die, who's going into exile, who's going to be happy and who isn't. I'm just trying to make an educated guess on the nature of Rey's journey. Is it going to be a journey of coming-of-age, or a journey of loss?


ETA: Sorry, didn't see your edit until now. But that the question - why would Rey be "retiring into marriage"?
@Darth Dingbat

Well with bolded, we're back to the dilemma of, can Kylo be accepted back into the broader society after everything he's done. Rey can be married and be a part of something bigger, no problem. But she can hardly play a part in something big going forward if she joins Kylo in exile and the two of them live somewhere on the fringes of the galaxy, isolated from the rest. Leia had no such issue with her choice of husband, she could be married and continue to participate in the politics.

Unless Rey and Kylo do the long-distance relationship thing?
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