Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Xylo Ren on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 15:21

I've been thinking this too. It seems we've been right about nearly everything...EXCEPT the marketing for Kylo so far. Which is interesting!

Most of us thought if they showed him at all, it would be guns out, fire blazing, mask on: "I'm coming to get you Scavenger Scum!" but as of now it hasn't been like that at all. Out of all of our predictions, Kylo's marketing for TLJ so far has been our only miss...but I'm not complaining!  What a Face

I think it could be damage control in a way. They realized they didn't need to give any more fuel for Kylo hate. His behavior and actions in TFA were enough to establish him as a controversial character and a complicated villain.

I showed my mom the new pictures of Kylo without saying anything, just "what do you think?" and she said they're definitely trying to keep him sexy "for his fans". She added, "They're wise to make him not ugly".

I think LF is being wise in their marketing of him now. They are getting people used to not seeing him with his mask on, which humanizes him on the spot. The mask represents "evil, monster, beast" and Adam said we're going to see Kylo's humanity and right now everything that has come out lines up with that. So I will continue to trust Adam, Daisy, and TPTB. sunny
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 15:31

@Xylo Ren wrote:I've been thinking this too. It seems we've been right about nearly everything...EXCEPT the marketing for Kylo so far. Which is interesting!

Most of us thought if they showed him at all, it would be guns out, fire blazing, mask on: "I'm coming to get you Scavenger Scum!" but as of now it hasn't been like that at all. Out of all of our predictions, Kylo's marketing for TLJ so far has been our only miss...but I'm not complaining!  What a Face

I think it could be damage control in a way. They realized they didn't need to give any more fuel for Kylo hate. His behavior and actions in TFA were enough to establish him as a controversial character and a complicated villain.

I showed my mom the new pictures of Kylo without saying anything, just "what do you think?" and she said they're definitely trying to keep him sexy "for his fans". She added, "They're wise to make him not ugly".

I think LF is being wise in their marketing of him now. They are getting people used to not seeing him with his mask on, which humanizes him on the spot. The mask represents "evil, monster, beast" and Adam said we're going to see Kylo's humanity and right now everything that has come out lines up with that. So I will continue to trust Adam, Daisy, and TPTB. sunny
@Xylo Ren

It does feel like damage control in a way.

And given the reaction to TFA (and much of the GA apparently expecting Super! Luke and a happy father-daughter reunion in TLJ), I also feel like they're trying to set audience expectations with regards to Luke, too.

Whereas JJ would have been all mystery-box-ish and been like "Surprise! Luke isn't the hero that you were expecting!"


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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by IoJovi on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 15:32

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@EchoBase wrote:Random thoughts on a Sunday afternoon: so let's assume Kylo is Anakin in reverse. It took about 1 1/2 films to turn Anakin to the dark side, so why is it so unlikely that it will also take that same amount of time to turn Kylo to the light? Moreover Anakin's catalyst to turn dark was the death of his mother in the second installment, so I'm sure Kylo will have his key moment in TLJ.
@EchoBase

I've thought a lot about this, too. It's part of why I think we'll start to see changes with Kylo starting fairly early into his stay on Ahch-To.
@ISeeAnIsland

It would line up as well with Kylo's aesthetic that's being marketed now. He most definitely does NOT look like some one dimensional villain. I think the best word to describe him would be "lost". It's also interesting they're keeping with TFA had already put in place. Rey looks very much like a normal girl (albeit a pretty one), where as Kylo, even though he's covered from head to toe, is sexed up to the 9th degree.
@IoJovi

The marketing around Kylo that we've seen so far has me really wondering about a couple of things:

* Is the "lost prince" vibe that they seem to be emphasizing a matter of course correction marketing for the huge portion of the GA that seemed to miss the boat with TFA?
* Are we looking at Kylo's redemption starting way earlier than most of us thought likely? Given the smashed mask and entirely maskless promo shots we've seen, is it possible that he doesn't wear the mask at all in TLJ? While I'm still expecting him to be mad AF at the beginning of TLJ, I am also really starting to doubt how far into the movie that's going to last.

I'm also wondering if we saw the movie in TFA that JJ, etc, were expecting most of the audience to see all along? I'm really starting to think that they were expecting most of the audience to come out of TFA asking "How did Ben Solo fall? Can he be redeemed? WTF is up between him and Rey?" rather than most people coming out asking "Who are Rey's parents? Is she Luke's kid?"
@ISeeAnIsland

This. It's something I have had in my mind for some time now.
I think that JJ and co. were very surprised by the outcome: the Reylation as the biggest mystery of TFA.

That's why JJ slipped his debunk at the convention - which I'am sure he wouldn't had done it if the parentage had been such a great mystery.
That's why PH (a LF employee) used happily every chance to "snark" his debunk.
When asked about the Jedi massacre PH always replied with: there's more story to tell or something similar. That was never the case with the Reywalker i.e. the story is told.

I think the Reylation is the product of somehow vague Maz's words, TFA rehashing (if TFA is a rehash, than everything is rehash), and people believing SW is about the lineage.

I have a very good friend, from my GOT circles, an intelligent guy who's capable of analytical thinking and he still see SW as the lineage thing. Although he's not so deep in SW, as we are, he doesn't think Rey is Skywalker (he thinks it would look too obvious), but still insists on the lineage as one of the themes.
@Darth_Awakened

I don't think Star Wars is about lineage so much as it revolves around a single core family, just like epic dramas and soap operas. Funny you bring up Maz's speech because it's the one thing in the movie that if you listen closely you it debunks Reywalker immediately and without question. Rey's family is never coming back. Luke is, with her help. Luke therefore isn't her blood family. Someone asked Pablo about this directly and he even confirmed that's what it means (with snark, of course).

As for Kylo's mindset at the end of TLJ, I'm thinking it'll be ambiguous to the point one doesn't know what side he's on. I can't see him wanting to go play good guys with the Resistance, and joining the "beautiful friendship gang", but I do see him potentially going back to the First Order, possibly with mutiny in mind. Rey might even be aware of said mutiny, and could be willing to join him.


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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Saracene on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 15:37

@ISeeAnIsland I think they absolutely intended for the audience to speculate on Rey's parents, and draw the attention away from her dynamic with Kylo. It's pretty obvious IMO that they intend their relationship to be the big surprise. Thing about the marketing approach with Kylo, it's just like any "confirmation" we got over the last few months - it reinforces the already existing ideas but it's not a definite "yes Reylo is happening". Other people who are not so taken with Kylo might interpret the lack of mask as a sign that he doesn't need it anymore to be a monster.

If the next trailer has something like a moment where Kylo and Rey are looking at each other with no hostility, maybe it will be fair to say that they're changing their tactics.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 15:41

@IoJovi wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@EchoBase wrote:Random thoughts on a Sunday afternoon: so let's assume Kylo is Anakin in reverse. It took about 1 1/2 films to turn Anakin to the dark side, so why is it so unlikely that it will also take that same amount of time to turn Kylo to the light? Moreover Anakin's catalyst to turn dark was the death of his mother in the second installment, so I'm sure Kylo will have his key moment in TLJ.
@EchoBase

I've thought a lot about this, too. It's part of why I think we'll start to see changes with Kylo starting fairly early into his stay on Ahch-To.
@ISeeAnIsland

It would line up as well with Kylo's aesthetic that's being marketed now. He most definitely does NOT look like some one dimensional villain. I think the best word to describe him would be "lost". It's also interesting they're keeping with TFA had already put in place. Rey looks very much like a normal girl (albeit a pretty one), where as Kylo, even though he's covered from head to toe, is sexed up to the 9th degree.
@IoJovi

The marketing around Kylo that we've seen so far has me really wondering about a couple of things:

* Is the "lost prince" vibe that they seem to be emphasizing a matter of course correction marketing for the huge portion of the GA that seemed to miss the boat with TFA?
* Are we looking at Kylo's redemption starting way earlier than most of us thought likely? Given the smashed mask and entirely maskless promo shots we've seen, is it possible that he doesn't wear the mask at all in TLJ? While I'm still expecting him to be mad AF at the beginning of TLJ, I am also really starting to doubt how far into the movie that's going to last.

I'm also wondering if we saw the movie in TFA that JJ, etc, were expecting most of the audience to see all along? I'm really starting to think that they were expecting most of the audience to come out of TFA asking "How did Ben Solo fall? Can he be redeemed? WTF is up between him and Rey?" rather than most people coming out asking "Who are Rey's parents? Is she Luke's kid?"
@ISeeAnIsland

This. It's something I have had in my mind for some time now.
I think that JJ and co. were very surprised by the outcome: the Reylation as the biggest mystery of TFA.

That's why JJ slipped his debunk at the convention - which I'am sure he wouldn't had done it if the parentage had been such a great mystery.
That's why PH (a LF employee) used happily every chance to "snark" his debunk.
When asked about the Jedi massacre PH always replied with: there's more story to tell or something similar. That was never the case with the Reywalker i.e. the story is told.

I think the Reylation is the product of somehow vague Maz's words, TFA rehashing (if TFA is a rehash, than everything is rehash), and people believing SW is about the lineage.

I have a very good friend, from my GOT circles, an intelligent guy who's capable of analytical thinking and he still see SW as the lineage thing. Although he's not so deep in SW, as we are, he doesn't think Rey is Skywalker (he thinks it would look too obvious), but still insists on the lineage as one of the themes.
@Darth_Awakened

I don't think Star Wars is about lineage so much as it revolves around a single core family, just like epic dramas and soap operas. Funny you bring up Maz's speech because it's the one thing in the movie that if you listen closely you it debunks Reywalker immediately and without question. Rey's family is never coming back. Luke is, with her help. Luke therefore isn't her blood family. Someone asked Pablo about this directly and he even confirmed that's what it means (with snark, of course).

As for Kylo's mindset at the end of TLJ, I'm thinking it'll be ambiguous to the point one doesn't know what side he's on. I can't see him wanting to go play good guys with the Resistance, and joining the "beautiful friendship gang", but I do see him potentially going back to the First Order, possibly with mutiny in mind. Rey might even be aware of said mutiny, and could be willing to join him.

@IoJovi

The saber part of Maz's words was the holy grail for Reywalkers: The saber belonged to Luke...blah. blah. blah. And then they simply ruled out the rest of the speech.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 15:42

@Saracene wrote:@ISeeAnIsland I think they absolutely intended for the audience to speculate on Rey's parents, and draw the attention away from her dynamic with Kylo. It's pretty obvious IMO that they intend their relationship to be the big surprise. Thing about the marketing approach with Kylo, it's just like any "confirmation" we got over the last few months - it reinforces the already existing ideas but it's not a definite "yes Reylo is happening". Other people who are not so taken with Kylo might interpret the lack of mask as a sign that he doesn't need it anymore to be a monster.

If the next trailer has something like a moment where Kylo and Rey are looking at each other with no hostility, maybe it will be fair to say that they're changing their tactics.
@Saracene

I agree with you on the marketing side... TFA marketing clearly ate up the Reylated speculation and fed the Reywalker (and Reylated, in general) machine.

What I'm speculating on is that was a marketing decision...and that JJ and the cast might have been expecting Rey's parentage to be the source of some speculation, but probably not the central question that everyone was obsessing over for TFA.

And I get the feeling that they're taking a different strategy with TLJ, where they're gently trying to nudge the audience back on track, rather than gearing up for another marketing campaign based on misdirection (i.e. Jedi! Finn).

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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 15:43

@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@EchoBase wrote:Random thoughts on a Sunday afternoon: so let's assume Kylo is Anakin in reverse. It took about 1 1/2 films to turn Anakin to the dark side, so why is it so unlikely that it will also take that same amount of time to turn Kylo to the light? Moreover Anakin's catalyst to turn dark was the death of his mother in the second installment, so I'm sure Kylo will have his key moment in TLJ.
@EchoBase

I've thought a lot about this, too. It's part of why I think we'll start to see changes with Kylo starting fairly early into his stay on Ahch-To.
@ISeeAnIsland

It would line up as well with Kylo's aesthetic that's being marketed now. He most definitely does NOT look like some one dimensional villain. I think the best word to describe him would be "lost". It's also interesting they're keeping with TFA had already put in place. Rey looks very much like a normal girl (albeit a pretty one), where as Kylo, even though he's covered from head to toe, is sexed up to the 9th degree.
@IoJovi

The marketing around Kylo that we've seen so far has me really wondering about a couple of things:

* Is the "lost prince" vibe that they seem to be emphasizing a matter of course correction marketing for the huge portion of the GA that seemed to miss the boat with TFA?
* Are we looking at Kylo's redemption starting way earlier than most of us thought likely? Given the smashed mask and entirely maskless promo shots we've seen, is it possible that he doesn't wear the mask at all in TLJ? While I'm still expecting him to be mad AF at the beginning of TLJ, I am also really starting to doubt how far into the movie that's going to last.

I'm also wondering if we saw the movie in TFA that JJ, etc, were expecting most of the audience to see all along? I'm really starting to think that they were expecting most of the audience to come out of TFA asking "How did Ben Solo fall? Can he be redeemed? WTF is up between him and Rey?" rather than most people coming out asking "Who are Rey's parents? Is she Luke's kid?"
@ISeeAnIsland

This. It's something I have had in my mind for some time now.
I think that JJ and co. were very surprised by the outcome: the Reylation as the biggest mystery of TFA.

That's why JJ slipped his debunk at the convention - which I'am sure he wouldn't had done it if the parentage had been such a great mystery.
That's why PH (a LF employee) used happily every chance to "snark" his debunk.
When asked about the Jedi massacre PH always replied with: there's more story to tell or something similar. That was never the case with the Reywalker i.e. the story is told.

I think the Reylation is the product of somehow vague Maz's words, TFA rehashing (if TFA is a rehash, than everything is rehash), and people believing SW is about the lineage.

I have a very good friend, from my GOT circles, an intelligent guy who's capable of analytical thinking and he still see SW as the lineage thing. Although he's not so deep in SW, as we are, he doesn't think Rey is Skywalker (he thinks it would look too obvious), but still insists on the lineage as one of the themes.
@Darth_Awakened

I don't think Star Wars is about lineage so much as it revolves around a single core family, just like epic dramas and soap operas. Funny you bring up Maz's speech because it's the one thing in the movie that if you listen closely you it debunks Reywalker immediately and without question. Rey's family is never coming back. Luke is, with her help. Luke therefore isn't her blood family. Someone asked Pablo about this directly and he even confirmed that's what it means (with snark, of course).

As for Kylo's mindset at the end of TLJ, I'm thinking it'll be ambiguous to the point one doesn't know what side he's on. I can't see him wanting to go play good guys with the Resistance, and joining the "beautiful friendship gang", but I do see him potentially going back to the First Order, possibly with mutiny in mind. Rey might even be aware of said mutiny, and could be willing to join him.

@IoJovi

The saber part of Maz's words was the holy grail for Reywalkers: The saber belonged to Luke...blah. blah. blah. And then they simply ruled out the rest of the speech.
@Darth_Awakened

They stopped listening immediately after "...and now it calls to you!"

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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Xylo Ren on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 15:45

If it is damage control and they decide to shove every humanized Kylo picture, Rey+Kylo joint merchandise, and a lot of "destinies intertwined, I don't actually want to kill you" type stuff our way in preparation for VIII, I won't be upset.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Xylo Ren on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 15:49

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@Saracene wrote:@ISeeAnIsland I think they absolutely intended for the audience to speculate on Rey's parents, and draw the attention away from her dynamic with Kylo. It's pretty obvious IMO that they intend their relationship to be the big surprise. Thing about the marketing approach with Kylo, it's just like any "confirmation" we got over the last few months - it reinforces the already existing ideas but it's not a definite "yes Reylo is happening". Other people who are not so taken with Kylo might interpret the lack of mask as a sign that he doesn't need it anymore to be a monster.

If the next trailer has something like a moment where Kylo and Rey are looking at each other with no hostility, maybe it will be fair to say that they're changing their tactics.
@Saracene

I agree with you on the marketing side... TFA marketing clearly ate up the Reylated speculation and fed the Reywalker (and Reylated, in general) machine.

What I'm speculating on is that was a marketing decision...and that JJ and the cast might have been expecting Rey's parentage to be the source of some speculation, but probably not the central question that everyone was obsessing over for TFA.

And I get the feeling that they're taking a different strategy with TLJ, where they're gently trying to nudge the audience back on track, rather than gearing up for another marketing campaign based on misdirection (i.e. Jedi! Finn).

^This. There's no reason to be deceptive in the marketing anymore. Secrecy, yes, but no need to outright misdirect.

JB and KMT together. This is preparing the audience.

Daisy saying Luke isn't what Rey expects her hero to be. Preparing the audience.

Kylo unmasked and dangerous. PrEpArInG tHe AuDiEnCe...
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Mrs Ben Solo on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 16:20

If Leia dies in TLJ maybe it will put Kylo back on the right path, although I'm not sure he'll ever be completely on the light side. I'm not ecstatic about the idea because I would have preferred Leia (and Carrie) to live through it. But with Shmi's death being a vital part of Anakin's journey to the dark side, and if Kylo/Ben is reverse Anakin, Leia's death like Han's could help save their son.

I wasn't too surprised to see Kylo marketed without the mask tbh. I think it was Daisy Ridley who said back when they were filming TLJ that Rian wasn't going to be like JJ with the secrecy. That doesn't mean he'll give the whole game away but he's not so much into the mystery boxes and holding everything back. I get the impression RJ likes to be straight about stuff where he can (see his Twitter account) and he doesn't get off on messing with fans like JJ has had a tendency to do in the past. I'm hoping we will get the Annie Leibovitz Vanity Fair photos soon - dare we hope May the 4th will be with us! Wink This should give us some indication of how Rey and Kylo will be marketed together. Personally, I'm not expecting anything overtly romantic like how Han and Leia and Anakin and Padme were posed together, but I'm expecting hints of mutual interest. Dangerous Dreamboat + Not impressed by your Sith Rey, but you're kinda hot vibes! lol
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by ReyofLightSide on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 17:09

@Xylo Ren wrote:If it is damage control and they decide to shove every humanized Kylo picture, Rey+Kylo joint merchandise, and a lot of "destinies intertwined, I don't actually want to kill you" type stuff our way in preparation for VIII, I won't be upset.
@Xylo Ren

We can't swing a light saber without hitting something with those two nerds on merchandise together. It's happening more and more.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by snufkin on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 17:42

There may have been some subterfuge in the marketing, especially about who was the legacy kid and how that played into getting HF back only if they finally killed off Han. Plus keeping Luke out of the picture because of the audience would gravitate more to him than getting to know Rey. But beyond that, it's hard for me to see how much is genuine confusion thanks to executive error when we live in a world where people are prone to attaching themselves to all sorts of conspiracy theories and bonkers beliefs. Because it supports whatever world view they already have. Some of the confusion has to be a by product simply of the rabid fans who love Luke and his quest for lineage. If  she's the heroine and the surface details of the movie are similar, ergo she must be Luke's kid. And the Lessons from the Screenplay argument about active versus passive characters could easily be about Rey and Kylo/Ben. We're engaged with her because we're shown who she is through her daily life and actions/choices. Versus all the exposition with LST at the beginning about Leia and "truth of your family," the supposed bombshell reveal with Snoke of "your father, Haaaaaan Soooooolo" (Snoke's compulsion to drag out syllables is annoying as Hell), and Han and Leia's whole discussion about their kid. He's like Jyn, too much show not enough tell. Though the plan would probably more to to Show in the 2nd movie in tandem with Luke's post RotJ/Bloodline backstory. But in the meanwhile, makes it easier for some vocal fans to jump on the idea that he's just a standard villain and that it's Rey who's the actual legacy kid.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by IoJovi on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 18:01

@snufkin wrote:There may have been some subterfuge in the marketing, especially about who was the legacy kid and how that played into getting HF back only if they finally killed off Han. Plus keeping Luke out of the picture because of the audience would gravitate more to him than getting to know Rey. But beyond that, it's hard for me to see how much is genuine confusion thanks to executive error when we live in a world where people are prone to attaching themselves to all sorts of conspiracy theories and bonkers beliefs. Because it supports whatever world view they already have. Some of the confusion has to be a by product simply of the rabid fans who love Luke and his quest for lineage. If  she's the heroine and the surface details of the movie are similar, ergo she must be Luke's kid. And the Lessons from the Screenplay argument about active versus passive characters could easily be about Rey and Kylo/Ben. We're engaged with her because we're shown who she is through her daily life and actions/choices. Versus all the exposition with LST at the beginning about Leia and "truth of your family," the supposed bombshell reveal with Snoke of "your father, Haaaaaan Soooooolo" (Snoke's compulsion to drag out syllables is annoying as Hell), and Han and Leia's whole discussion about their kid. He's like Jyn, too much show not enough tell. Though the plan would probably more to to Show in the 2nd movie in tandem with Luke's post RotJ/Bloodline backstory. But in the meanwhile, makes it easier for some vocal fans to jump on the idea that he's just a standard villain and that it's Rey who's the actual legacy kid.
@snufkin

That's a wonderful example​ about how showing can be so much more powerful than telling. Aside from the obvious, Rey's introduction is one of my favorite scenes. You can literally feel her hunger and loneliness.  

Hell, that's probably why I latched onto the potential relationship between Kylo and Rey.  In TFA it's 100% show, and ZERO tell or exposition.  The viewer is left to make up their own mind, and that's incredibly clever.  No wonder so many of us latched onto it so fervently.

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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by snufkin on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 18:16

@IoJovi - he's far more of a Mystery Box in TFA than she is, at least in terms of we see her life and immediately know that it sucks, it's not her fault that she's there, and understand that she deserves better. Versus all of the pertinent legacy kid details for him is pure exposition. We get some show for him, especially the Hamlet soliloquy with Vader's mask and his interactions with Han and Rey. And I'd agree with you, the show parts with Rey are what drove me to be curious about what I'd just seen and started looking around. Because what I saw spelled out both something for the character more complicated than just a villain and his interactions with Rey spelled out that the two of them would be involved in something central to their story and her character than just heroine kills off heartless villain at the end.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 20:02

For a lot of GA and even hardcore fans, there is a thin line between Reywalker and UnReylated, and that was Maz's infamous lightsaber line."And now it calls to you!" (ergo you must be Skywalker too) 

Nevermind that she also then says that whomever you're waiting for, "They are never coming back"

The idea of Ben Solo and Kylo Ren's eventual redemption needed a good strong push after JJ's mystery box and I'm glad Rian's not afraid of pulling punches with marketing. 

We already got the side view, and 3/4 view of Kylo's face for Battlefront promotions, and they are openly showing his scar. By the time the full trailer drops, surely it'll be his full face then and new get up. It'll totally be different from that famous TFA teaser where he trudges the snow and lights up his crosssaber. He was menacing then, now they'll have to slowly but surely introduce the idea that "He doesn't like to be a bad guy anymore!"
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by ZioRen on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 20:04

I can't get over that no TLJ promo they've shown of Kylo paints him as evil or even really aggressive. With the exposed face, sad eyes, and small scar, that has to mean something. It's a far cry from how people, and even we, were expecting him to be portrayed in marketing. I have no doubt that they're trying to get some thing across to the audience early.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 20:17

@ZioRen wrote:I can't get over that no TLJ promo they've shown of Kylo paints him as evil or even really aggressive. With the exposed face, sad eyes, and small scar, that has to mean something. It's a far cry from how people, and even we, were expecting him to be portrayed in marketing. I have no doubt that they're trying to get some thing across to the audience early.
@ZioRen

While speculating marketing we all had to manage expectations and had JJ mystery box hang over, so we thought they'd keep Kylo a secret.

But now they are virtually slapping us in the face with Dangerous Dreamboat Dark Prince Kylo Ren Ben Solo
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by ISeeAnIsland on Sun 30 Apr 2017 - 20:31

@Rei of Sunshine wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:I can't get over that no TLJ promo they've shown of Kylo paints him as evil or even really aggressive. With the exposed face, sad eyes, and small scar, that has to mean something. It's a far cry from how people, and even we, were expecting him to be portrayed in marketing. I have no doubt that they're trying to get some thing across to the audience early.
@ZioRen

While speculating marketing we all had to manage expectations and had JJ mystery box hang over, so we thought they'd keep Kylo a secret.

But now they are virtually slapping us in the face with Dangerous Dreamboat Dark Prince Kylo Ren Ben Solo
@Rei of Sunshine

i.e. "You're all getting Reverse Anakin rather than Vader 2.0. Prepare for it!"

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Hoping Rey is "riding solo" for the ST...
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Darth_Awakened on Mon 1 May 2017 - 0:26

@Saracene wrote:@ISeeAnIsland I think they absolutely intended for the audience to speculate on Rey's parents, and draw the attention away from her dynamic with Kylo. It's pretty obvious IMO that they intend their relationship to be the big surprise. Thing about the marketing approach with Kylo, it's just like any "confirmation" we got over the last few months - it reinforces the already existing ideas but it's not a definite "yes Reylo is happening". Other people who are not so taken with Kylo might interpret the lack of mask as a sign that he doesn't need it anymore to be a monster.

If the next trailer has something like a moment where Kylo and Rey are looking at each other with no hostility, maybe it will be fair to say that they're changing their tactics.
@Saracene

I was thinking a lot about the bolded, and somehow I tend to disagree.
Here's why: if it was the case I'am pretty sure you would not have seen almost open debunk by several people.

I think it's not an accident that J.J. was willing to answer relatively early on at some random convention that Rey parents were not in TFA, or Daisy talking how she thought the mystery was obviously answered in TFA, or Pablo constantly debunking Reywalker from get-a-go.

All of it points (at least for me) to the fact that Rey's mysterious identity had not been planed to be seen as a "mysterious" in a way many fans out there had interpreted it (i.e. Rey is related to Luke)

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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Darth Dingbat on Mon 1 May 2017 - 1:09

I actually don't think Reylo is even supposed to be the Big Huge Motherflippin' Surprise of the Century. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing this "intertwined destinies" at all, let alone have Daisy (and Judi Dench, LOL) mention Reylo. I believe Reylo is meant to be the, "No! Surely that's not... no way? How could it possibly happen? Could it happen? It's probably just an unrequited crush on his side, right? No, the whole thing is surely impossible! Or is it?"

And you know, *CLEARS THROAT LOUDLY* I've been saying all along that they should be pushing Mystery!Kylo rather than Evil!Kylo in marketing in order to correct the course of audience expectations. I've been theorising since last winter/early spring that Kylo would come to Ahch-To early (I got receipts!! Wink), that he'd "switch sides" early (or at least be shown in a light in which Rey can more easily understand him and relate to him), and that the real mystery about Kylo is how on earth he ended up with Snoke in the first place. Because if this is actually going to be a love story, with two films left, it's got to get moving or there won't be enough time for convincing character development. They've got to convince more than just hardcore Reylos, you know. "I AM YOUR FATHER" at the end of ESB left enough time for a last-minute redemption for Vader. I think we're getting something completely different here. You need to get the audience on board, so the audience that hates him needs to start changing its assumptions; eventually the same people will have to root for him.

I could still be totally wrong about everything, of course. But if I'm right, I'll be looking at the Dangerous Mystery Dreamboat marketing and sitting here in my corner like

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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 1 May 2017 - 1:51

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I actually don't think Reylo is even supposed to be the Big Huge Motherflippin' Surprise of the Century. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing this "intertwined destinies" at all, let alone have Daisy (and Judi Dench, LOL) mention Reylo. I believe Reylo is meant to be the, "No! Surely that's not... no way? How could it possibly happen? Could it happen? It's probably just an unrequited crush on his side, right? No, the whole thing is surely impossible! Or is it?"

And you know, *CLEARS THROAT LOUDLY* I've been saying all along that they should be pushing Mystery!Kylo rather than Evil!Kylo in marketing in order to correct the course of audience expectations. I've been theorising since last winter/early spring that Kylo would come to Ahch-To early (I got receipts!! Wink), that he'd "switch sides" early (or at least be shown in a light in which Rey can more easily understand him and relate to him), and that the real mystery about Kylo is how on earth he ended up with Snoke in the first place. Because if this is actually going to be a love story, with two films left, it's got to get moving or there won't be enough time for convincing character development. They've got to convince more than just hardcore Reylos, you know. "I AM YOUR FATHER" at the end of ESB left enough time for a last-minute redemption for Vader. I think we're getting something completely different here. You need to get the audience on board, so the audience that hates him needs to start changing its assumptions; eventually the same people will have to root for him.

I could still be totally wrong about everything, of course. But if I'm right, I'll be looking at the Dangerous Mystery Dreamboat marketing and sitting here in my corner like

@Darth Dingbat

THIS!!! Especially the bolded italicized.  You know I have been on that "shocking twist/much more than meets the eye" train with you all along Very Happy
I don't know how they are going to do it.  That's the big impressive writing challenge.  But just like Adam hinted at when he said that "Episode VIII will explain/make sense of the plot points that all were laid down in TFA" (paraphrase), IMO they are going to do something that is going to really change the game for Kylo.  Certainly not for everybody, but I think it will be something that will make a lot of people look at him very differently ... and with the poster (Luke as sinister and Kylo, open-faced and sad, and below Luke ... not a direct enemy/antagonist, instead he's below, subordinate) and the warnings about it not always being pleasant to meet your heroes, my money right now is on something going really wrong with Luke. 

And Luke doesn't need to have fallen dark to really screw/warp/damage Ben ... he just needs to be really wrong about something that "seems right" and be really zealous about that wrong thing.  (And if there's one thing the Skywalkers are, it's zealous).  As his apprentice, especially if Luke followed the "Master Yoda/Obi-Wan/Windu" school of thought (and I don't see why he wouldn't, he'd know nothing else), Ben would be *intensely* influenced by Luke, rightly and wrongly. 

Reylo will be a surprise at first glance, but IMO, Reylo is going to seem like the most natural progression in the world in comparison with whatever dirty laundry is aired between Luke and Ben.  Mark Hamill was raving this time last year about how AD was a "deeply gifted actor."  JJ Abrams was talking with apparent sincerity about MH being nominated for an Oscar.  People don't get nominated for Oscars in movies like SW, especially nowadays.  Alec Guinness might have gotten the nod years ago, but the competition is much more fierce now.  JJ knows enough to know that you better be giving a Heath Ledger as The Joker kind of performance for that kind of talk.  And you can't even think of talking like that unless there is something major to work with in the role.  Something *huge* is happening between Luke and Kylo/Ben.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Darth_Awakened on Mon 1 May 2017 - 2:02

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I actually don't think Reylo is even supposed to be the Big Huge Motherflippin' Surprise of the Century. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing this "intertwined destinies" at all, let alone have Daisy (and Judi Dench, LOL) mention Reylo. I believe Reylo is meant to be the, "No! Surely that's not... no way? How could it possibly happen? Could it happen? It's probably just an unrequited crush on his side, right? No, the whole thing is surely impossible! Or is it?"

And you know, *CLEARS THROAT LOUDLY* I've been saying all along that they should be pushing Mystery!Kylo rather than Evil!Kylo in marketing in order to correct the course of audience expectations. I've been theorising since last winter/early spring that Kylo would come to Ahch-To early (I got receipts!! Wink), that he'd "switch sides" early (or at least be shown in a light in which Rey can more easily understand him and relate to him), and that the real mystery about Kylo is how on earth he ended up with Snoke in the first place. Because if this is actually going to be a love story, with two films left, it's got to get moving or there won't be enough time for convincing character development. They've got to convince more than just hardcore Reylos, you know. "I AM YOUR FATHER" at the end of ESB left enough time for a last-minute redemption for Vader. I think we're getting something completely different here. You need to get the audience on board, so the audience that hates him needs to start changing its assumptions; eventually the same people will have to root for him.

I could still be totally wrong about everything, of course. But if I'm right, I'll be looking at the Dangerous Mystery Dreamboat marketing and sitting here in my corner like

@Darth Dingbat

**taking notes for the future*** LOL

- I'am adding my bold predictions as well (the black cat is on my shoulder, and tarot cards are in front of me):

Rey's emotional injury - definitely by Luke
The "Jedi temple massacre" - big twist regarding Kylo's fall
Rey and Kylo teaming up on Anch-To (romantic feelings or not)
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by SkyStar on Mon 1 May 2017 - 2:45

@Darth Dingbat wrote:I actually don't think Reylo is even supposed to be the Big Huge Motherflippin' Surprise of the Century. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing this "intertwined destinies" at all, let alone have Daisy (and Judi Dench, LOL) mention Reylo. I believe Reylo is meant to be the, "No! Surely that's not... no way? How could it possibly happen? Could it happen? It's probably just an unrequited crush on his side, right? No, the whole thing is surely impossible! Or is it?"

And you know, *CLEARS THROAT LOUDLY* I've been saying all along that they should be pushing Mystery!Kylo rather than Evil!Kylo in marketing in order to correct the course of audience expectations. I've been theorising since last winter/early spring that Kylo would come to Ahch-To early (I got receipts!! Wink), that he'd "switch sides" early (or at least be shown in a light in which Rey can more easily understand him and relate to him), and that the real mystery about Kylo is how on earth he ended up with Snoke in the first place. Because if this is actually going to be a love story, with two films left, it's got to get moving or there won't be enough time for convincing character development. They've got to convince more than just hardcore Reylos, you know. "I AM YOUR FATHER" at the end of ESB left enough time for a last-minute redemption for Vader. I think we're getting something completely different here. You need to get the audience on board, so the audience that hates him needs to start changing its assumptions; eventually the same people will have to root for him.

I could still be totally wrong about everything, of course. But if I'm right, I'll be looking at the Dangerous Mystery Dreamboat marketing and sitting here in my corner like

@Darth Dingbat

I think... you are so right!

What I imagine is that after the whole rush with Rey and Finn in the forest, while being treated to his wounds Kylo will have a moment where he actually seriously starts to doubt Snoke. I also have a HC for that moment - as he is getting weaker so is his bond with Leia getting stronger, he hears or feels her as well as she. Yet he has just killed his father and has bitten too much, have choked on that and that feeling is the one that he tries to shake off, because he is in desperation. There is nowhere to go after that. He smashes the mask.

So he goes to Snoke, who gives him the whole "you had compassion for her" speech and maybe kills Hux to show his power, plays more on Kylo's insecurities and the fact that he killed his father praising him for an achievement and that he didn't think he could do it, because that is hell of a test (what Kylo will take from it - wow, you actually did it, you really are the monster).
Then Snoke will order Kylo to go after Luke and Rey, and Rey will sense that Kylo is still conflicted and eh, with the stuff she will discover she will probably feel pity for him. As well as the audience and then it will leave room for other development as the pity changes to acceptance and to sympathy later.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by MoonFyre on Mon 1 May 2017 - 4:12

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:I actually don't think Reylo is even supposed to be the Big Huge Motherflippin' Surprise of the Century. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing this "intertwined destinies" at all, let alone have Daisy (and Judi Dench, LOL) mention Reylo. I believe Reylo is meant to be the, "No! Surely that's not... no way? How could it possibly happen? Could it happen? It's probably just an unrequited crush on his side, right? No, the whole thing is surely impossible! Or is it?"

And you know, *CLEARS THROAT LOUDLY* I've been saying all along that they should be pushing Mystery!Kylo rather than Evil!Kylo in marketing in order to correct the course of audience expectations. I've been theorising since last winter/early spring that Kylo would come to Ahch-To early (I got receipts!! Wink), that he'd "switch sides" early (or at least be shown in a light in which Rey can more easily understand him and relate to him), and that the real mystery about Kylo is how on earth he ended up with Snoke in the first place. Because if this is actually going to be a love story, with two films left, it's got to get moving or there won't be enough time for convincing character development. They've got to convince more than just hardcore Reylos, you know. "I AM YOUR FATHER" at the end of ESB left enough time for a last-minute redemption for Vader. I think we're getting something completely different here. You need to get the audience on board, so the audience that hates him needs to start changing its assumptions; eventually the same people will have to root for him.

I could still be totally wrong about everything, of course. But if I'm right, I'll be looking at the Dangerous Mystery Dreamboat marketing and sitting here in my corner like

@Darth Dingbat

THIS!!! Especially the bolded italicized.  You know I have been on that "shocking twist/much more than meets the eye" train with you all along Very Happy
I don't know how they are going to do it.  That's the big impressive writing challenge.  But just like Adam hinted at when he said that "Episode VIII will explain/make sense of the plot points that all were laid down in TFA" (paraphrase), IMO they are going to do something that is going to really change the game for Kylo.  Certainly not for everybody, but I think it will be something that will make a lot of people look at him very differently ... and with the poster (Luke as sinister and Kylo, open-faced and sad, and below Luke ... not a direct enemy/antagonist, instead he's below, subordinate) and the warnings about it not always being pleasant to meet your heroes, my money right now is on something going really wrong with Luke. 

And Luke doesn't need to have fallen dark to really screw/warp/damage Ben ... he just needs to be really wrong about something that "seems right" and be really zealous about that wrong thing.  (And if there's one thing the Skywalkers are, it's zealous).  As his apprentice, especially if Luke followed the "Master Yoda/Obi-Wan/Windu" school of thought (and I don't see why he wouldn't, he'd know nothing else), Ben would be *intensely* influenced by Luke, rightly and wrongly. 

Reylo will be a surprise at first glance, but IMO, Reylo is going to seem like the most natural progression in the world in comparison with whatever dirty laundry is aired between Luke and Ben.  Mark Hamill was raving this time last year about how AD was a "deeply gifted actor."  JJ Abrams was talking with apparent sincerity about MH being nominated for an Oscar.  People don't get nominated for Oscars in movies like SW, especially nowadays.  Alec Guinness might have gotten the nod years ago, but the competition is much more fierce now.  JJ knows enough to know that you better be giving a Heath Ledger as The Joker kind of performance for that kind of talk.  And you can't even think of talking like that unless there is something major to work with in the role.  Something *huge* is happening between Luke and Kylo/Ben.
@SoloSideCousin

It would be shocking for the GA. They come expecting Rey's parentage to be the twist but it's about Luke and Ben all along. Especially if it's written and executed well, it might give the “Luke, I am your father’ a run for its money.
 
The Last Jedi is definitely going to be make it or break it for Kylo Ren and Rey's romance. Well Rian Johnson is very capable, his accomplishments precede him.

To be honest though, the SW fandom has come a long way regarding Kylo and Rey. In comparison to last year when people just outright dismissed it, now it's been talked about and the discussions are often thought provoking and civil. Sure there are still haters who try to stir trouble but there's more genuine interest now. Even the casual fans could see its potential, and as long as it's done well.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Reynak on Mon 1 May 2017 - 4:17

@IoJovi wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:
@ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@EchoBase wrote:Random thoughts on a Sunday afternoon: so let's assume Kylo is Anakin in reverse. It took about 1 1/2 films to turn Anakin to the dark side, so why is it so unlikely that it will also take that same amount of time to turn Kylo to the light? Moreover Anakin's catalyst to turn dark was the death of his mother in the second installment, so I'm sure Kylo will have his key moment in TLJ.
@EchoBase

I've thought a lot about this, too. It's part of why I think we'll start to see changes with Kylo starting fairly early into his stay on Ahch-To.
@ISeeAnIsland

It would line up as well with Kylo's aesthetic that's being marketed now.  He most definitely does NOT look like some one dimensional villain.  I think the best word to describe him would be "lost".  It's also interesting they're keeping with TFA had already put in place.  Rey looks very much like a normal girl (albeit a pretty one), where as Kylo, even though he's covered from head to toe, is sexed up to the 9th degree.  
@IoJovi

The marketing around Kylo that we've seen so far has me really wondering about a couple of things:

* Is the "lost prince" vibe that they seem to be emphasizing a matter of course correction marketing for the huge portion of the GA that seemed to miss the boat with TFA?
* Are we looking at Kylo's redemption starting way earlier than most of us thought likely? Given the smashed mask and entirely maskless promo shots we've seen, is it possible that he doesn't wear the mask at all in TLJ? While I'm still expecting him to be mad AF at the beginning of TLJ, I am also really starting to doubt how far into the movie that's going to last.

I'm also wondering if we saw the movie in TFA that JJ, etc, were expecting most of the audience to see all along?  I'm really starting to think that they were expecting most of the audience to come out of TFA asking "How did Ben Solo fall? Can he be redeemed? WTF is up between him and Rey?" rather than most people coming out asking "Who are Rey's parents? Is she Luke's kid?"
@ISeeAnIsland

This. It's something I have had in my mind for some time now.
I think that JJ and co. were very surprised by the outcome: the Reylation as the biggest mystery of TFA.

That's why JJ slipped his debunk at the convention - which I'am sure he wouldn't had done it if the parentage had been such a great mystery.
That's why PH (a LF employee) used happily every chance to "snark" his debunk.
When asked about the Jedi massacre PH always replied with: there's more story to tell or something similar. That was never the case with the Reywalker i.e. the story is told.

I think the Reylation is the product of somehow vague Maz's words, TFA rehashing (if TFA is a rehash, than everything is rehash), and people believing SW is about the lineage.

I have a very good friend, from my GOT circles, an intelligent guy who's capable of analytical thinking and he still see SW as the lineage thing. Although he's not so deep in SW, as we are, he doesn't think Rey is Skywalker (he thinks it would look too obvious), but still insists on the lineage as one of the themes.
@Darth_Awakened

I don't think Star Wars is about lineage so much as it revolves around a single core family, just like epic dramas and soap operas.  Funny you bring up Maz's speech because it's the one thing in the movie that if you listen closely you it debunks Reywalker immediately and without question.  Rey's family is never coming back.  Luke is, with her help.  Luke therefore isn't her blood family.  Someone asked Pablo about this directly and he even confirmed that's what it means (with snark, of course).  

As for Kylo's mindset at the end of TLJ, I'm thinking it'll be ambiguous to the point one doesn't know what side he's on.  I can't see him wanting to go play good guys with the Resistance, and joining the "beautiful friendship gang", but I do see him potentially going back to the First Order, possibly with mutiny in mind.   Rey might even be aware of said mutiny, and could be willing to join him.  

@IoJovi

I think Maz didn't mean Luke when she said someone could still come back, with her help, because Rey asks 'Luke?' and Maz's answer is left unsaid, as a misdirection. In fact, Luke doesn't need anybody's help to "come back". What's more, where would he have to come back to? He is like some sort of space nomad or hermit and at his age there's no home he has to return to. As the legendary hero he is, he belongs to the whole galaxy and to no place in particular. Rey is right in thinking he is a myth by the time TFA starts.

Like an oracle, Maz speaks cryptically and she means another when she says someone still could. There is someone about whom other characters (Leia and Han) say explicitly they want him back. This is what Leia asks of Han, she asks him to bring their son back and Han gives his life to achieve this. Also, the mention to someone coming back is linked to the impossible return of Rey's family, so it doesn't make sense for this person to be Luke, as he is neither her family nor can make up for her loss. But Ben Solo could, if he is meant to become her future companion, the one to start her own family with one day.

Another point to consider is that she is the "heroine" in this story, and heroes aren't meant to help their mentors (Luke). Mentors make it possible for heroes to save the day. In this case she is meant to save the galaxy against the threat Snoke and the FO pose, but also to help win the battle for Ben's soul. He is the one who is trapped and not even his mother's love, Luke's teachings, or Han Solo himself have been able to save him so far. This is what heroes are for, to achieve the seemingly impossible.


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