Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 27 Jul - 8:31

Good article; I can't help but wonder if the bit from the BTS footage we've seen where Rey appears to be 'kneeling' before Leia and someone many speculate could be Kylo is approaching from behind is Rey trying to explain to Leia that she's left Ahct To and brought Kylo with her?

I have such a strong feeling Rey and Kylo are on the Falcon in the trailer scene - there are rumours Kylo's ship crashes so he'd have to take alternate transport. And I don't think Luk'e is going to be with them because if he could take the Falcon, why is there reportedly a scene where Luke raises his X wing from the sea?

I'm really fascinated with how the Kylo/Leia meeting is going to go down. So many of us think she's going to forgive her son...yet Carrie herself said:
"Rey is very forgiving."
Rey. She did not mention Leia.
Interesting...........
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by IoJovi on Thu 27 Jul - 11:48

motherofpearl1 wrote:Good article; I can't help but wonder if the bit from the BTS footage we've seen where Rey appears to be 'kneeling' before Leia and someone many speculate could be Kylo is approaching from behind is Rey trying to explain to Leia that she's left Ahct To and brought Kylo with her?

I have such a strong feeling Rey and Kylo are on the Falcon in the trailer scene - there are rumours Kylo's ship crashes so he'd have to take alternate transport. And I don't think Luk'e is going to be with them because if he could take the Falcon, why is there reportedly a scene where Luke raises his X wing from the sea?

I'm really fascinated with how the Kylo/Leia meeting is going to go down. So many of us think she's going to forgive her son...yet Carrie herself said:
"Rey is very forgiving."
Rey. She did not mention Leia.
Interesting...........
@motherofpearl1

I SOOO want it to be Kylo standing behind Rey in that BTS with Leia with all my being.  The look on Leia's face doesn't conflict with this scenario one iota.  My headcanon has always stated she'd slap the sith out of him, and then proceed to hug him profusely.  Now that is a good catch about Rey being "very forgiving" when there's no mention of Leia from Carrie in that quote.  He did murder her husband after all.  

OMG I can't wait to see this unfold.  I hope it's true.

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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by snufkin on Thu 27 Jul - 12:18

Rei of Sunshine wrote:http://screenrant.com/kylo-ren-redeemed-light-star-wars-last-jedi/

Well this is a breath of fresh air from Screenrant.

It's been a long time coming, I think, to read a nicely versed article that doesn't seem misinformed or biased.

Though there's nothing in there that we haven't discussed before in regards to Kylo's redemption and what the sizzle reel showed up, but I guess I'm glad people are catching on now as to the tragectory of his character arc. The more people who believe he can turn against Snoke and ally with Rey, the better and easier it will be for people to accept the possiblity of Reylo.

@Rei of Sunshine

I saw that turn up via Film Twitter and not surprisingly, there were quite a few people freaking out about it being anything less than Old Testament style judgement because they’ve decided that he HAS to be some type of stand-in/avatar for real world type of evil figures. Which if he’s anything, he’s the Parable of the Lost/Prodigal Son (coincidentally Luke 15:11-32). Although a lot of those type of fans come off like anything less than Old Testament style judgement and wrath would be to “weak” for their taste.

Interestingly enough, that's the second day in a row that they've looked at more dare I say it, nuanced, essay about the character and his potential narrative arc. Although again, the type of “true” fans who scream for his head (and these must be lovely people to have to attend church or participate in jury duty with) would probably start arguing against how you can’t compare a character to a real type of person if it meant having an actual complex and compassionate take. But there was a discussion at ComicCon panel with real life judges who talked about looking at the DarkSide as an addiction and how they’d handle him if he were in their courts.

Is Kylo Ren Guilty of Murdering Han Solo?

Fans don’t normally think about how real-life concepts like addiction might play into their favorite movies, but that was part of the Judges on Star Wars panel that took place at San Diego Comic-Con 2017. One of the topics brought up was Kylo Ren’s fascination with the dark side and if he has the capacity to form a mental state and commit horrifying acts like patricide.
One of the panelists was Mitch Debin, a federal magistrate judge, who explained that in law, the court has to determine if a defendant made a true choice or if they were driven into conduct that needs to be modified to prevent future crime. He had an intriguing viewpoint of the Force itself and those who follow it:
“Being a Jedi is an addiction if you think about the definition of being an addict. It’s to devote or surrender yourself to something habitually or obsessively. So a Jedi is an addict to the light side. But when someone becomes addicted to the dark side, or chooses the dark side as their path, of course they come into conflict with others far more than the Jedi. And in terms of someone like Kylo Ren, who like his grandfather started down the path of being trained as a Jedi but was turned to the dark side, what does that mean? Is it a question of genetics? Is it a question of how they were brought up? We know some about Anakin’s upbringing, and we don’t know much about Kylo Ren’s upbringing besides being raised by Han Solo and Princess Leia might have been a little difficult. There may have been some tension in the household, which may have frustrated him and brought the rage to the surface. So when we consider the dark side and whether it’s an addiction or a lifestyle choice, we’re actually talking about how we punish and how we treat.”

With that in mind, Debin’s colleague CA Judge Carol Najera offered some sympathy for Kylo Ren, stating how he could be diagnosed with a devastating addiction that negatively impacts his state of wellbeing:
“If we were to bring Kylo Ren to trial, in California, there’s a defense from the penal code that if you suffer from a disease, defect, or disorder, that can be used to negate your mental state. To be convicted of a crime like murder… you have to show a specific intent and you have to show is deliberation, meditation, and malice aforethought. For those of you in the audience who are not lawyers, that simply means you thought about it and then you did it and you did it because you wanted to do it. And in this case, it can be argued Kylo Ren is suffering from an addiction. And the American Medical Association tells us an addiction is a disease. That can be used to show he didn’t have the capacity to form a mental state. That poor boy did not have the capacity to form a mental state to really want to kill his father.
When the light side is the compulsion or obsession, it doesn’t affect you to the point where you start denying your basic necessitates and everything else. When you’re addicted to the dark side, it seems like you are obsessed with it beyond everything – including basic needs. You see Kylo Ren on his off time and he isn’t having fun, he’s not enjoying himself. He spends all of his time obsessing over his grandfather and how they are going to save the universe. So, very clearly it’s a dark addiction and it’s something that should be considered in whether or not he’s guilty of his crimes.”

Oh and dunno if this is worth tagging the lawyers on here (@solosidecousin, @panki, @slade), it doesn't go too deep into the weeds of legal procedure, but it is a topic ya'll have mentioned before.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by DarthRen on Thu 27 Jul - 12:29

IoJovi wrote:
DarthRen wrote:
IoJovi wrote:
DarthRen wrote:
IoJovi wrote:
motherofpearl1 wrote:
DarthRen wrote:
motherofpearl1 wrote:Interesting that they're present on Finn who's getting a love interest in Rose, Leia,who had Han....but not present on Poe or Luke however.

The plot thickens...........
@motherofpearl1

We don't know that.
@DarthRen

I thought John had mentioned it?
@motherofpearl1

We've been hit over the head with it.  It's not exactly a secret when they play Across the Stars every time John and Kelly are presented together.
@IoJovi

They did it once at Star Wars Celebration for Rose as Kelly Marie Tran when she came on the stage.
@DarthRen

They also did it once again at D23 last weekend.
@IoJovi

For Kelly but not for John or?
@DarthRen

When you have two people riding on what is the equivalent of a spacehorse (a trope associated with romance), Kelly wearing a Finn t-shirt to public events on more than one occasion, interviews (I forget who, but someone jump in and clarify please) that state they fear Kelly receiving hate from shippers (likely from fans of FinnRey and StormPilot), John and Kelly being interviewed together on multiple occasions AND being introduced with Across the Stars playing in the background, it's not exactly subtle.  It's more like a hammer.
@IoJovi

Yes, that spacehorses bit is romance-esque trope, Kelly wearing Finn's shirt is not a hint to me.

As much as I like the idea, if this is "our central romance" I'd be a bit dissapointed because it would start in the second movie, not the whole trilogy as JJ promised. At this point they seem likelier than Kylo and Rey but circumstances works for them.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Helix on Thu 27 Jul - 12:31

It's almost as if people projecting their frustration with real people ( especially to the point of wanting violent retribution ) onto a fictional character isn't healthy. Weird.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by snufkin on Thu 27 Jul - 12:32

Also reading the last few posts about that one shot of Leia and Rey meaning Rey has left Ache-to and returned to the Resistance because she had a mission to report on:

1) Said mission was "bring him back," so who knows in that case which him it is - could be Luke or Ben

2) It's sounding from the various breadcrumbs of not extending a helping hand to Rey, no Artoo, crashed ship in the water, "time for the Jedi to end," map fragment that somebody was being melodramatic af with the intent to just stay on lonely Space Hobo island until he dies. Likely as penance for things he did and possibly bad things he learned about the Jedi. So my guess for part of what upends audience expectations is that he flat out refuses to return with Rey, which as somebody whose code includes loyalty and family, that's not going to be easy for her to take. Could be part of the bit about finding out heroes are different from what you perceive. But obviously he's not going to stay sitting on his a** after being around Rey (didn't work for Han or Finn), but the choice to come back will have to be his.

3) Given whatever his backstory is for getting sent away, turning to the DS and what happens on Ache-to with Luke and Rey, it's going to be pivotal. But if he had just got the map and it had been him and Luke, they would've killed each other. End of story and tragedy for Leia. Rey was the wildcard thrown into that situation and having her there will change things dramatically. I've no doubt that some of it will be "Villainous Crush, part two." But as with the judges' panel comments above, he has a lot of personal ground to cover after what he's been through and what he's done. Which Rey will play a role in, and likely not just as an antagonist or even potential LI. But the getting his s*it together part has to happen first and likely that's what will happen next.

4) Coming back, especially to help his mother or in response to her being beset by figures like Hux and Holdo, would be pretty f**king huge for showing how he's changed. Also huge if it showed him making this choice and going with Rey, versus trying to force her into whatever agenda he has.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 27 Jul - 13:17

I have this weird headcanon where the only person to essentially defend Kylo turns out to be Rey.

Luke sees his nephew as irretrievably lost

Finn and Poe have every reason to hate him

Deep down Leia still cares....but Han's death has broken something inside her

It would be so very ironic if the only person on Kylo's side is the one person everyone thinks will destroy him...Rey.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Rei of Sunshine on Thu 27 Jul - 13:22

motherofpearl1 wrote:I have this weird headcanon where the only person to essentially defend Kylo turns out to be Rey.

Luke sees his nephew as irretrievably lost

Finn and Poe have every reason to hate him

Deep down Leia still cares....but Han's death has broken something inside her

It would be so very ironic if the only person on Kylo's side is the one person everyone thinks will destroy him...Rey.
@motherofpearl1


If they do share a bond of sorts, and Rey becomes privy to his past, I don't see why this can't happen. 

That's a twist the GA won't expect!
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by tukicarreno on Thu 27 Jul - 13:24

DarthRen wrote:
IoJovi wrote:
DarthRen wrote:
IoJovi wrote:
DarthRen wrote:
IoJovi wrote:
motherofpearl1 wrote:
DarthRen wrote:
motherofpearl1 wrote:Interesting that they're present on Finn who's getting a love interest in Rose, Leia,who had Han....but not present on Poe or Luke however.

The plot thickens...........
@motherofpearl1

We don't know that.
@DarthRen

I thought John had mentioned it?
@motherofpearl1

We've been hit over the head with it.  It's not exactly a secret when they play Across the Stars every time John and Kelly are presented together.
@IoJovi

They did it once at Star Wars Celebration for Rose as Kelly Marie Tran when she came on the stage.
@DarthRen

They also did it once again at D23 last weekend.
@IoJovi

For Kelly but not for John or?
@DarthRen

When you have two people riding on what is the equivalent of a spacehorse (a trope associated with romance), Kelly wearing a Finn t-shirt to public events on more than one occasion, interviews (I forget who, but someone jump in and clarify please) that state they fear Kelly receiving hate from shippers (likely from fans of FinnRey and StormPilot), John and Kelly being interviewed together on multiple occasions AND being introduced with Across the Stars playing in the background, it's not exactly subtle.  It's more like a hammer.
@IoJovi

Yes, that spacehorses bit is romance-esque trope, Kelly wearing Finn's shirt is not a hint to me.

As much as I like the idea, if this is "our central romance" I'd be a bit dissapointed because it would start in the second movie, not the whole trilogy as JJ promised. At this point they seem likelier than Kylo and Rey but circumstances works for them.
@DarthRen

There is no way Finn/Rose are going to be the central romance, people just don´t care for them as much as they care for Kylo & Rey.
And although Rose is a prominent new character she is not a lead, there is not even a red poster for her.
So no worries, Kylo & Rey are the main couple. it´s just that is going to take a longer time for them to get there, but I believe 100% they will by episode IX. Wink I love you
Patience is a virtue. Smile

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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by adamdrivershair on Thu 27 Jul - 13:29

@motherofpearl1 I would love that!

@snufkin Thank you for quoting that ComicCon panel. I hadn't seen that and it made me smile. Turns out that even if you DO try and translate Kylo Ren into "real world" terms, he has the capacity to be offered mercy, at least legally. What an interesting discussion!
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by snufkin on Thu 27 Jul - 14:52

adamdrivershair wrote:@motherofpearl1 I would love that!

@snufkin Thank you for quoting that ComicCon panel. I hadn't seen that and it made me smile. Turns out that even if you DO try and translate Kylo Ren into "real world" terms, he has the capacity to be offered mercy, at least legally. What an interesting discussion!

@adamdrivershair

I was a debate nerd (county champion!) in high school, so the panel sounds like topics we'd be assigned for Law Day. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if these judges volunteer in the schools for Moot Court and Mock Trial. Certainly more entertaining than the fictional scenarios I ever got assigned to argue!

Judges on Star Wars

Is the dark side an addiction or a choice for Kylo Ren? What are the civil rights of droids? Did interrogating Bodhi Rook with the Bor Gullet violate Rook's civil rights? Join California Supreme Court Justice Mariano-Florentino Cuéllar, Judge John B. Owens of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, Federal Magistrate Judge Mitch Dembin, Federal Magistrate Judge Stacie Beckerman, CA Judge Carol Najera, and former Federal Magistrate Judge Paul Grewal (now deputy general counsel of litigation at Facebook) to hear their legal analysis, and love, of Star Wars. Moderated by Joshua Gilliland, Esq. and Jessica Mederson, Esq. of The Legal Geeks.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by DarthRen on Thu 27 Jul - 20:09

motherofpearl1 wrote:Good article; I can't help but wonder if the bit from the BTS footage we've seen where Rey appears to be 'kneeling' before Leia and someone many speculate could be Kylo is approaching from behind is Rey trying to explain to Leia that she's left Ahct To and brought Kylo with her?

I have such a strong feeling Rey and Kylo are on the Falcon in the trailer scene - there are rumours Kylo's ship crashes so he'd have to take alternate transport. And I don't think Luk'e is going to be with them because if he could take the Falcon, why is there reportedly a scene where Luke raises his X wing from the sea?

I'm really fascinated with how the Kylo/Leia meeting is going to go down. So many of us think she's going to forgive her son...yet Carrie herself said:
"Rey is very forgiving."
Rey. She did not mention Leia.
Interesting...........
@motherofpearl1

Rey and Chewie most likely are on MF running from FO. I had this theory about Kylo to but at this point probably a bit too early. We know that Rey gets to Ressistance and on Crait but not with Kylo most likely.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by SheLitAFire on Thu 27 Jul - 20:26

snufkin wrote:Also reading the last few posts about that one shot of Leia and Rey meaning Rey has left Ache-to and returned to the Resistance because she had a mission to report on:

1) Said mission was "bring him back," so who knows in that case which him it is - could be Luke or Ben

@snufkin

Yup, I'm starting to agree with a few of you on this point. Or that when she said "bring him back" that it was Luke she assumed would come back (1st at least), but instead it was Ben who came back with Rey...and not Luke and maybe they have to transition to going to get Luke/bring him back/redeem him if he does go dark (or somewhat dark, again I'm not so sure, but I'd love it if he did). That would make sense with the expression on Leia's face.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 27 Jul - 21:08

SheLitAFire wrote:
snufkin wrote:Also reading the last few posts about that one shot of Leia and Rey meaning Rey has left Ache-to and returned to the Resistance because she had a mission to report on:

1) Said mission was "bring him back," so who knows in that case which him it is - could be Luke or Ben

@snufkin

Yup, I'm starting to agree with a few of you on this point. Or that when she said "bring him back" that it was Luke she assumed would come back (1st at least), but instead it was Ben who came back with Rey...and not Luke and maybe they have to transition to going to get Luke/bring him back/redeem him if he does go dark (or somewhat dark, again I'm not so sure, but I'd love it if he did). That would make sense with the expression on Leia's face.
@SheLitAFire

If we were right in our "Kylo is with the Resistance pictures", and I am pretty sure we are, I think Rey almost needs to bring him in somehow.  Otherwise the Resistance would logically just shoot him/his ship on sight.  Now I don't know if he is in the MF or Rey argues that they should allow him to land in the Silencer, but they can't just let him in without good reason.  Even if he says he's surrendering, I think folks like Poe might need more than that to allow him to land and Rey could provide that extra argument.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by SheLitAFire on Thu 27 Jul - 21:42

I still wish the head canon where they stay on Ach-to for awhile and do their own thing or go off on their own was really happening though. Sigh. Fanfiction will have to satisfy me I guess. :stares out the window wistfully:
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by snufkin on Thu 27 Jul - 22:13

@SheLitAFire - I'm guessing based on reading Bloodline w/the different factions trying to backstab Leia in order to advance their personal interests, the rumors about Laura Dern's character being an antagonist against Leia and Poe, comments about the FO being aggressive, and the basic knowledge we have that there will be 3 characters on Ache-to. But likely Luke exiled himself there to eventually die and it's going to have to be a choice on his part to come back. Which Rey will kick his a** in that direction. But I won't be surprise if it turns out that it ends up Kylo comes back with Rey as part of Leia wanting him to "come back" (as Ben) and that they're all uneasy allies against the other factions in their respective sides. He's not defecting to join the Resistance, he'll still be his own person. But likely there for the greater good and finally needing to see/do penance with his mother.
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Post by SheLitAFire on Thu 27 Jul - 22:25

Oh yeah I definitely think the 3 of them will be there, but my head canon went way off on a tangent & had Ben & Rey exploring the island together (waterfalls, cliffsides, ya know all the most romantic scenery) and then lots of talking between the 2 of them & falling in love and the others can handle the rest of the plot on their own. So pretty much a completely separate plot line Laughing
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by snufkin on Wed 30 Aug - 15:29

Not really SW related, but given some of the discussions here about fan discussions/ethnography and theorizing, and knowing that some of you follow GoT, thought it was worth including. Although it does bring up the question of how much people bring their baggage over from other pop culture properties (like the arguments about how something works in Harry Potter, GoT, or anything Joss Whedon does frequently says more about audience engagement in fan culture than about the actual narrative in question) which they follow to how they theorize about the ST. And it's an interesting case study of how people can put together a right theory versus crack theory. And in the case of guessing correctly about something the writer was setting up, how the process itself may ultimately be more satisfying than having it confirmed. Or how some people will chose to reject something even after it's been put into writing because it doesn't jibe with what their expectations/interpretation was. Because even if they definitely show on screen that Rey has had nothing to do with any of the OT characters as a family member, her parents are unrelated to Luke & Leia by DNA, and in the process of Kylo redeeming himself, she starts to reciprocate his interest, a certain type of fan is going to lose their sh*t and scream about how this is a crime on the scale of the PT and how JJ, Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson, Kasdan, Disney et cetera are heretics who "ruined" their stories.

R+L=J: a comprehensive oral history of Game of Thrones’ ultimate fan theory Fans look back at the mystery that shaped 20 years of fandom, from the early internet through today.

Also I've never heard of this particular writer, but it sounds pretty close to what most of us have tried to do here (besides goofing off and wasting time)

The Robert Jordan group on Usenet really served as a model for a lot of what came after it. I recall even early on we were trying to develop our own ASOIAF FAQ, and one of the models for it was the Wheel of Time FAQ at the Usenet newsgroup recs.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan.net. They had a really good one, they crowdsourced it, and they would have people writing pros and cons and laying out theories and things like that. Those books presented lots of long-running mysteries, and people responded with these massive discussions trying to piece things together.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by vaderito on Wed 30 Aug - 15:46

R+L=J has been set up in the books and subsequently on the show. Nedd says that Jon is "his blood" as opposed to his son. Jon was raised as Nedd's bastard son cause that's what Nedd said Jon was but on screen he said "my blood". Also, at one point, Nedd says to Jon "I'll tell you about your mother" and both the book and the show depict him as a faithful husband so siring a bastard son during a war campaign just didn't right true. Lyanna was said to have died on "the bed of blood and roses". Blood hinted at childbirth. Lyanna was believed to have been kidnapped and raped by Prince Rhaegar Targ but everyone who knew the Prince testified he was a good man so kidnapping and rape didn't compute. Robert Baratheon would kill any remaining Targ (he was plotting Danaerys murder when she was only 13).

OTOH, there's nothing in the way of Reywalker hints in TFA and canon books. Han and Leia only have Ben. Luke is a Jedi. Nobody knows WTF Rey is, they never met her, she thinks one of them is a myth. It simply isn't the same. One mystery has a proper set up for a reveal (that Jon is a Targ) to make sense, another doesn't have any set up for Reysky reveal at all.

So if Reywalker are using R+L=J model to prove L+SM*=MBG**...yikes!

*Skymom
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by snufkin on Wed 30 Aug - 15:58

vaderito wrote:R+L=J has been set up in the books and subsequently on the show. Nedd says that Jon is "his blood" as opposed to his son. Jon was raised as Nedd's bastard son cause that's what Nedd said Jon was but on screen he said "my blood". Also, at one point, Nedd says to Jon "I'll tell you about your mother" and both the book and the show depict him as a faithful husband so siring a bastard son during a war campaign just didn't right true. Lyanna was said to have died on "the bed of blood and roses". Blood hinted at childbirth. Lyanna was believed to have been kidnapped and raped by Prince Rhaegar Targ but everyone who knew the Prince testified he was a good man so kidnapping and rape didn't compute. Robert Baratheon would kill any remaining Targ (he was plotting Danaerys murder when she was only 13).

OTOH, there's nothing in the way of Reywalker hints in TFA and canon books. Han and Leia only have Ben. Luke is a Jedi. Nobody knows WTF Rey is, they never met her, she thinks one of them is a myth. It simply isn't the same. One mystery has a proper set up for a reveal (that Jon is a Targ) to make sense, another doesn't have any set up for Reysky reveal at all.

So if Reywalker are using R+L=J model to prove L+SM*=MBG**...yikes!

*Skymom
**My Baby Girl

@vaderito

Reywalker or Rey Solo never once entered my mind (and I was pretty obsessed with the OT as a child) when watching TFA. So far thanks to Bloodline, the only concrete hints we have a big mystery is simply the big secret at the heart of the OT and the ST. That two kids impulsively hooked up/married in secret and it subsequently destroyed everything in its path as a result. The central secrets are the ones Obi-Wan and Bail kept about the father's true identity/still being alive and that there wasn't just one child born out of that marriage, but two. Also extrapolating from Bloodline, it sounds like the central secret of the father's true identity was still being kept for various personal/political reasons. Until the truth came out and people turned on the children.  Otherwise we're on the side guessing that Reylo is the central mystery or detail still hidden in the ST. Which isn't so much OMG they're gonna bang (though they might do that eventually), but Han telling Rey about the Force being a mystical power holding the Light and the Dark together, One Boy and What Girl, Space Panda et cetera. But it's an interesting example to read about in terms of how people try to piece these things together and the role the Internet has played in it. On the opposite side, it's also why you have people falling down the rabbit hole of Rey Solo or Rey Skywalker, all evidence in one movie, 2 tie-in novels, and various filmmaker/actor comments to the contrary.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Darth_Awakened on Wed 30 Aug - 16:03

snufkin wrote:Not really SW related, but given some of the discussions here about fan discussions/ethnography and theorizing, and knowing that some of you follow GoT, thought it was worth including. Although it does bring up the question of how much people bring their baggage over from other pop culture properties (like the arguments about how something works in Harry Potter, GoT, or anything Joss Whedon does frequently says more about audience engagement in fan culture than about the actual narrative in question) which they follow to how they theorize about the ST. And it's an interesting case study of how people can put together a right theory versus crack theory. And in the case of guessing correctly about something the writer was setting up, how the process itself may ultimately be more satisfying than having it confirmed. Or how some people will chose to reject something even after it's been put into writing because it doesn't jibe with what their expectations/interpretation was. Because even if they definitely show on screen that Rey has had nothing to do with any of the OT characters as a family member, her parents are unrelated to Luke & Leia by DNA, and in the process of Kylo redeeming himself, she starts to reciprocate his interest, a certain type of fan is going to lose their sh*t and scream about how this is a crime on the scale of the PT and how JJ, Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson, Kasdan, Disney et cetera are heretics who "ruined" their stories.

R+L=J: a comprehensive oral history of Game of Thrones’ ultimate fan theory Fans look back at the mystery that shaped 20 years of fandom, from the early internet through today.

Also I've never heard of this particular writer, but it sounds pretty close to what most of us have tried to do here (besides goofing off and wasting time)

The Robert Jordan group on Usenet really served as a model for a lot of what came after it. I recall even early on we were trying to develop our own ASOIAF FAQ, and one of the models for it was the Wheel of Time FAQ at the Usenet newsgroup recs.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan.net. They had a really good one, they crowdsourced it, and they would have people writing pros and cons and laying out theories and things like that. Those books presented lots of long-running mysteries, and people responded with these massive discussions trying to piece things together.
@snufkin

Our Reylo-putting the pieces and pieces together reminds me a lot of those days in ASOIAF fandom. (I even know some of those guys participating in the interview). As it was with R + L=J when suddenly all the pieces fall together and everything just makes sense, the Reylo theory for ST has similar completed puzzle vibe to me. Unlike Reywalker, Rey Solo and some other theories which always have more than one or a one puzzle that just doesn't fit anywhere.

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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by vaderito on Wed 30 Aug - 16:04

@snufkin When I left the theater, my biggest takeaway was that Rey and Kylo were going to be the romance of ST. Of that I was certain and thought that it was so obvious. And then I found out there were still fans who believed in Soloist. I wasn't upset by Reywalker cause cousins =/= incest in most countries. But, yeah. Reylo was the biggest and best surprise of the movie to me. I was blown away.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by snufkin on Wed 30 Aug - 16:14

@vaderito - typically alliances between family members (and Julian Fellowes tried to have his cake and eat it to with Downton Abbey) have nothing to do with love or passion and everything to do with maintaining control/the status quo. Or if you're like one side of my family, you live in a rural isolated region where there's no immigration/emigration for over 250 years, so you get a lot of crossed branches in the family tree. Consolidation/control of power or simple "they live down the road and go to the same church" convenience doesn't appear to be factors in the ST. And in the case of those two characters and the central FO vs NR/Resistance conflict, there's a pretty clear theme about reconciling with the past so you can leave it behind and forge your own true identity. That's the only ever concrete parallel I can ever see with Pride and Prejudice - Darcy wanting to be with Lizzy breaks the engagement to his cousin where he would have further added to the wealth/status he had given their shared lineage. He breaks with that by choosing instead to forge a new (albeit still wealthy and privileged) path with Lizzy and new wealth figures like Mr Gardiner.

@Darth_Awakened - Cool! Of course, the one thing which made me both want to laugh and cry is the comment (maybe by one of your friends?) about how we now live in a society where people can choose what they want to believe. Which is to be silly when it comes to pop culture, but so toxic and dangerous when it comes to politics and governance : (


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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by vaderito on Wed 30 Aug - 16:19

@snufkin yeha, this is the story about passionate love that brings 2 sides of the Force together in balance. Those stories are the best so why so many fans are against them? Oh, well, GA loves them.
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Re: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Post by Mrs Ben Solo on Wed 30 Aug - 16:54

vaderito wrote:@snufkin yeha, this is the story about passionate love that brings 2 sides of the Force together in balance. Those stories are the best so why so many fans are against them? Oh, well, GA loves them.
@vaderito

The possible incest thing has muddied the Reylo waters from the start, and Kylo killing Han. It has been a uphill battle from the get go, mainly because of the mystery box elements. I'm hoping a good story well written with fantastic acting will turn some of the vitriol around. Alas, I fear the damage cannot be reversed in some people's eyes, no matter what comes next.

I don't want to get into the whole Jonerys thing again, but this is a good read r.e incest in stories (not just in Game of Thrones) www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/538170/
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